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'[EE:] Low cost PCB Fib in the US'
2005\08\31@204855 by Chen Xiao Fan

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So you are now going directly to Chinese vendors. That is a much better
option. I think the language barrier will still be there. However with
the higher education being more and more accessible (not really more
affordable) to the general public, there will be more and more Chinese
who command good enough English to communicate. To pass a National
Band-4 College English test is a prerequisite to get a Bachelor's
degree since 1993. Now lots of the students take TOEFL as well
(not really totally for going abroad) since quite some employers
require this. Japanese/German are quite popular 2nd language as well.

In my company (a Germany company) we do want to lower our PCB
price down. However, we have not got an approved vendor in
China so far. One thing is because of the stringent tolerance
of our PCB tolerance. The major thing is the quantity
(normally 5k-20k per year for each PCB). So far our approved
vendors are in Singapore, Taiwan and India. Those Chinese vendors
with higher quality standard do not want to accept our order.
Those want to accept our order are not able to fulfill our
requirement (ISO 9000 and quality audit).

We get delivery of PCB in about three weeks from approved vendors
by paying express (if not it is 6 weeks). Creative Technology (MP3)
get their PCBs in three days by paying express. So quantity plays
a big part.

Actually there are many smaller Chinese vendors providing good
enough PCBs (1-layer or 2-layer). They may not meet my company's
requirement, they are certainly good enough for normal production
run and prototyping.

China is still importing a lot of high value PCBs like flex and
rigid-flex board from outside. It is said that now higher end
PCB vendors start to producing more and more flex boards now.
A major listed PCB manufacturer (quite good in high end boards,
one of the suppliers of our flex boards) in Singapore will close
down its factory in Singapore and move to in Jiangshu province
(near Shanghai and produce most of the Dell/HP/Acer/... notebooks
among other things).

Yahoo just invests big money into the Chinese based Alibaba
(http://www.alibaba.com) which is specialized in introducing
the Chinese vendors to the outside world. Yahoo has bought
3721.com and yishou.com before. Now Google is into Chinese
market as well with the competition from Baidu.com and Yahoo
China. Ebay is also in China. Looks like another dotcom boom
(? bubble in Baidu's case) in China.

Regards,
Xiaofan

{Original Message removed}

2005\08\31@214857 by Josh

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There is a very big problem with using chinese vendors.  Once a company
has regular orders for a particular board with parts in it, the fun
begins.  There are 'buyers' there who make thier money by finding your
parts for just a little bit cheaper.  Lets say theres a .1uF cap in your
board.   These buyers will go out and find a better deal, they might
save 5 cents on a bag of 1000, for a part that is marginally more
cheaply made.  They will do this continuously.  Until they are buying
caps so cheap that your units will fail.  You are going to say 'omg I
never said to use this cap' and then you are going to realize that the
entire board is filled with components so cheap that they are always on
the verge of not working.  Customers will start getting pissed off and
your return rate will go thru the roof.  All so a guy in china can
pocket $0.05.  This is china official operating procedure.


'[EE:] Low cost PCB Fib in the US'
2005\09\01@000226 by Chen Xiao Fan
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I would not say this is totally not true. Even for those big OEM
manufacturers in mainland China (headquartered in Taiwan or USA or
other parts of the world). Just look at the notebooks
by HP/Dell/Acer/... My Dell 600M suffered hard disk failure after
3 months of use and motherboard failure after 9 months. Their
service is excellent but the notebook product sucks. HP/Acer and
others are by no means better than Dell. All of the them are
really of the same quality (not really very very low quality
but definitely not high enough).

The problem is the highly squeezed profit margin and lack of the
quality control measures in place. I will say this is generally
true for the consumer electronics product. Last time our old 1986
Toshiba TV last about 10 years (actually still works but so clear
anymore). Now a new Toshiba TV will probably last only 3 years. Lots
of the product will fail slightly longer than the warranty period,
even those from the so-called well-known brands like Sony.

Still one need to be careful not to jump the conclusions that all
these vendors are not good. One need to be careful to choose the
right partners to work with and establish mutual confidence.

By the way, SMD parts are generally better produced. SMD machine
is also only bought by bigger companies. So maybe one should go
for SMD parts if possible even though the price can be higher.

Regards,
Xiaofan

{Original Message removed}

2005\09\01@030557 by Electron

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At 08.48 2005.09.01 +0800, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

We will all speak Chinese in 50 years, and I'm not too unhappy
about it. Would you give us some lessons, just to prepare us? ;)


>
>Regards,
>Xiaofan
>
>{Original Message removed}

2005\09\01@033127 by Wouter van Ooijen

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> We will all speak Chinese in 50 years, and I'm not too unhappy
> about it. Would you give us some lessons, just to prepare us? ;)

The trouble with Chinese (the language) is that AFAIK there is one
written language, but a zillion spoken languages that won't understand
each other any more than a Swede will understand a Portugese. So maybe
in 50 years we will all *write* Chinese. I wonder how large my keyboard
will be? I'll better start cleaning up my desk now!

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\09\01@043707 by Chen Xiao Fan

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All of you are welcome to learn Chinese. :) It seems that
Chinese tutoring is a good business to run. Anyway, it is
already a good business with Singapore government

Actually I happen to have Electronics Engineering Times Aisa
edition August 1-15, 2005 edition with me. The articles is
titled "Mandarin on the resume". The author is Ron Wilson.

The article starts with this paragraph.
-------start of the quote---------
Mainland companies seize Chinese cellphone market...
Process development shift to Taiwan...
SMIC flexes muscle in foundry market...
Chinese company to buy IBM PC division.

"Good grief -- the way things are going, I'd better start
learning Chinese!"
--------end of the quote

The Chinese input is quite easy now. I use the same keyboard to
input Chinese and English. I can also input any other language
using the same keyboard, including Japanese and German and ...
if I happend to know that language. :)

BTW, If you are using Windows XP and later Linux, Chinese
support is built-in.

Regards,
Xiaofan

{Original Message removed}

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