Post by thread:[EE:] Internet capable embedded development system

Zilog are offering the "eZ80 Acclaim" development system for the processor of the same name for the equivalent of about$US80 "for a limited period". This provides web capability (10/100 Mbps Ethernet MAC, 8 kB frame buffer, TCP/IP stack provided). Also includes a "free" ANSI compliant C. The 8 bit processor, which is a Z80 superset, has 256 kB Flash, 8 MB linear addressing, 8 kB RAM and performance claimed to exceed that of any other 8 bit processor (Rabbit 3000, Motorola 332, AMD 188, HC11 etc) (has 50 Mhz single cycle clock). EZ80F91 has JTAg interface, SPI, IIC, RTC, WDT, 2 x UART. Buying, or adopting, a processor on the basis of its development system can be a great mistake, but this seems adequately capable and the "free" C and available TCP.IP stack and the kit's MAC are attractive.. QUESTIONS: If one wanted embedded internet capability at some stage: - What are the alternative "foot in the water" "plug it in and go" web capable options at anything like this price? - What is the price? - Why wouldn't one buy this to put on the shelf "against the day" (apart from wasting $US80). - Is this liable to be the price of things to come or a genuine bargain as they claim (was $US550) Russell McMahon -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

On Monday, Nov 17, 2003, at 21:11 US/Pacific, Russell McMahon wrote: > Zilog are offering the "eZ80 Acclaim" development system for the > processor > of the same name for the equivalent of about$US80 "for a limited > period". It's been available at a "special price of $99" in the states for quite a while now (at least as far back as the last ESC. March? Zilog seems to regularly make available heavily discounted development systems. I've got a couple sitting on shelves... > Buying, or adopting, a processor on the basis of its development > system can > be a great mistake, but this seems adequately capable and the "free" C > and > available TCP.IP stack and the kit's MAC are attractive.. I listened to their talk at ESC. My sort of overall impression was "ok, it's pretty nice, but why would anyone risk fooling around with what is essentially a proprietary architecture and tcp stack, when for similar prices you can get something like a dragonball, "internet appliance" x86 clone, or commodity PC that will run several commercial operatings systems, plus several open source operating systems?" > QUESTIONS: > > If one wanted embedded internet capability at some stage: > > - What are the alternative "foot in the water" "plug it in and go" web > capable options at anything like this price? embedded linux? PalmOS? WinCE? real linux (and etc)? Real windows? complete embedded internet products like the Rabbit semiconductor system or the things Scenix was pushing back in the boom days? Dedicated hardware? External gateways like emWare (are they still around?) And highly tuned and compacted software running directly on the microprocessor of your choice? Somewhat more traditional internet stacks running on the slightly larger version of the processor of your choice? > - What is the price? Last time I looked, I was noticing that all technology types were converging on a price of about $100. I found this very amusing. And extensible. Old PC running linux? About $100. Low end palmtop? About $100. silicon state machine? About $100 (of course, this was supposed to go down in quantity, but the "1st item" cost was "about $100.") Licensed TCP stack for 8051? About $100. Port on a tcp terminal server? About $100. Amazing... (note that $100 is really ridiculous for the average embedded gadget with maybe $20 existing parts cost.) I think that more recently, the software stacks are winning out. once you get embedded SW engineers understanding enough about networking, or network sw geeks getting out of their 'can't we just add another 512M of memory?' mindset, it seems that it's not so hard to write an internet stack in 32k or so. One of those big AVRs with even more memory should be a piece of cake. > - Why wouldn't one buy this to put on the shelf "against the day" > (apart > from wasting $US80). Sounds good to me. I only bought the ez8 kit myself ($49, neat blinky lights), myself. I decided that QFP100s and similar were more than I was likely do deal with in my semi-amateur interest level in microcontrollers, and I wasn't looking for a TCP stack. > > - Is this liable to be the price of things to come or a genuine > bargain as > they claim (was $US550) The development kit is likely to stay pretty cheap, but perhaps not $80. The people charging $500 for some processor evaluation board are the ones who expect to recoup their costs. Most companies at the low end seem to be recognizing that a low-cost evaluation system is more of a sales tool. The Zilog kits are particularly spiffy for the price, and contain things like C compilers and power supplies that might be missing or "limitted versions" from another vendor, but I doubt that you'll see them selling for $500. BillW (all in my PERSONAL opinion, of course.) -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

William Chops Westfield wrote: > On Monday, Nov 17, 2003, at 21:11 US/Pacific, Russell McMahon wrote: > >> Zilog are offering the "eZ80 Acclaim" development system > I listened to their talk at ESC. My sort of overall impression was > "ok, it's pretty nice, but why would anyone risk fooling around with > what is essentially a proprietary architecture and tcp stack, when > for similar prices you can get something like a dragonball, > "internet appliance" x86 clone, or commodity PC that will run > several commercial operatings systems, plus several open source > operating systems?" An open OS? I haven't really had a chance to work with it so I guess I shouldn't really comment. But I do have the Comer Xinu book (sort of open?). > >> QUESTIONS: >> >> If one wanted embedded internet capability at some stage: >> >> - What are the alternative "foot in the water" "plug it in and go" web >> capable options at anything like this price? > > embedded linux? PalmOS? WinCE? real linux (and etc)? Real > windows? complete embedded internet products like the Rabbit > semiconductor system or the things Scenix was pushing back in the > boom days? Dedicated hardware? External gateways like emWare (are > they still around?) And highly tuned and compacted software running > directly on the microprocessor of your choice? Somewhat more > traditional internet stacks running on the slightly larger version > of the processor of your choice? I just went through this for my Open Source HCS project (Home Automation controller, see links in my sig) but take it with a grain of salt and realize I had special needs due to a lack of resources. I chose ECOS because it was flexible, open, allowed others to use Open Source tools (we needed free) and was RT and small. Though I love using Linux I'm not so sure it's the right OS for my embedded project. Windows was definitely out of the question. Still I love all this 'stuff'! I can get PIC's & AVR's with 10/100 interfaces (check out http://www.edtp.com) or the Rabbit (probably other's I can't remember). Though I am having trouble with soldering pins so close together that I can't get a hair between them (need to upgrade my 100W iron ;-). Yes EmWare is still around. > >> - What is the price? > > > Last time I looked, I was noticing that all technology types were > converging on a price of about $100. > I think that more recently, the software stacks are winning out. > once you get embedded SW engineers understanding enough about > networking, or network sw geeks getting out of their 'can't we just > add another 512M of memory?' mindset, it seems that it's not so > hard to write an internet stack in 32k or so. One of those big AVRs > with even more memory should be a piece of cake. I don't think it's the stack that's the source of the problem. Once you get going with TCP/IP it's all the other features that spoil you. NTP, filters, web server, cli, tftp, ... etc (IPV6 ;-). In my HA controller I'm hoping to work with telnet/CLI, NTP, tftp, and a web server for the initial phase. I figure that starting with 16M (once you get past 1 or 2M might as well jump to 16M) of RAM and 16M of flash. Right now I'm starting off with 1M of static RAM. >> - Why wouldn't one buy this to put on the shelf "against the day" >> (apart from wasting $US80). I bought it for nostalgia, I have a Z80 starter kit & an EM180 Z80 hardware emulator. Both still work and I can S1 dump Z80 code to make the blinking lights display :-). I intend to put the ez80 next to it and do the same thing. >> - Is this liable to be the price of things to come or a genuine >> bargain as they claim (was $US550) > > > The development kit is likely to stay pretty cheap, but perhaps not > $80. The people charging $500 for some processor evaluation board > are the ones who expect to recoup their costs. They used to sell them for $700! Yikes! One problem I've experienced was that Zilog was promising embedded Linux and Open Source tools (I really think they need these kinds of tools) but I don't think they'll ever do it. The ez80 is a 8/16 bit processor so Linux will be tough. But I'd still like to see the Open Source tools. I'm very leery of XP but I have a WIN2K box to run my 'Windows' only tools. I've heard that we're going to see more tools for Linux and I hope it's true. I find the Linux environment much easier to work with (I've been working with Unix for quite some time). BTW, I don't see Linux as the only tool of the future and it's not the answer to everything. So let's not get into that flame war. Everything has it's place (even Windows) and each choice must be made on facts, opinions and political winds (nasty thing I learned working in a big company!). -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry spam_OUTncherryTakeThisOuTcomcast.net http://home.comcast.net/~ncherry/ (Text only) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II) -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

On Tuesday, Nov 18, 2003, at 09:48 US/Pacific, Neil Cherry wrote: > > for similar prices you can get something like a dragonball, > > "internet appliance" x86 clone, or commodity PC that will run > > several commercial operatings systems, plus several open source > > operating systems?" > > An open OS? I haven't really had a chance to work with it so I guess > I shouldn't really comment. But I do have the Comer Xinu book (sort of > open?). > I mostly meant the assorted unix clones. > I chose ECOS because it was flexible, open, allowed others to use Open > Source tools (we needed free) and was RT and small. Sounds like fine reasons to me. > Though I love using Linux I'm not so sure it's the right OS for my > embedded project. Windows was definitely out of the question. Why? For something like a "home automation controller", you don't necessarily need something "tiny." A brand new PC can be had for about $300, and give you enough HW resources to run hugely inefficient software :-) true, windows is expensive just for the OS. but you probably already have it. linux or freedos will work fine. It's REAL HARD to match the bang/buck of a commodity PC (and of course, 3-generation old PCs can be plucked from select trash cans...) (available: 90Mhz Pentium I system, HDD, CD, 14inch SVGA monitor. MSDOS6.22, W3.1, W95 'update'. Works fine. Free. Buyer pays postage. note that it's probably not WORTH the postage... Getting to the point where it's not worth the space it's taking. Sigh.) BillW -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

William Chops Westfield wrote: > On Tuesday, Nov 18, 2003, at 09:48 US/Pacific, Neil Cherry wrote: >> Though I love using Linux I'm not so sure it's the right OS for my >> embedded project. Windows was definitely out of the question. > Why? For something like a "home automation controller", you don't > necessarily need something "tiny." A brand new PC can be had for > about $300, and give you enough HW resources to run hugely inefficient > software :-) true, windows is expensive just for the OS. but you > probably already have it. Linux or freedos will work fine. It's > REAL HARD to match the bang/buck of a commodity PC (and of course, > 3-generation old PCs can be plucked from select trash cans...) > (available: 90Mhz Pentium I system, HDD, CD, 14inch SVGA monitor. > MSDOS6.22, > W3.1, W95 'update'. Works fine. Free. Buyer pays postage. note that > it's probably not WORTH the postage... Getting to the point where it's > not worth the space it's taking. Sigh.) We thought of that too, the original HCS & HCS II were ucontroller boards that were meant to run without the PC (1985 - 1992, at the time a very expensive device for 1 time costs). Part of the goals for this project are to have a device that runs without a PC running 7x24, run a long time on backup power and be as reliable as is reasonable. The biggest problem with PC's is it moving parts tend to wear out fast. I've gone through a lot of drives (CD's, hard drives & floppies) over the years -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry .....ncherryKILLspam@spam@comcast.net http://home.comcast.net/~ncherry/ (Text only) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II) -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

Hi- As per moving parts wearing out - there are quite a few cheap PC type systems with flash drives, and no moving parts available now. See http://www.solarpc.com/, for example. David Neil Cherry wrote: {Quote hidden}> William Chops Westfield wrote: > > On Tuesday, Nov 18, 2003, at 09:48 US/Pacific, Neil Cherry wrote: > > >> Though I love using Linux I'm not so sure it's the right OS for my > >> embedded project. Windows was definitely out of the question. > > > Why? For something like a "home automation controller", you don't > > necessarily need something "tiny." A brand new PC can be had for > > about $300, and give you enough HW resources to run hugely inefficient > > software :-) true, windows is expensive just for the OS. but you > > probably already have it. Linux or freedos will work fine. It's > > REAL HARD to match the bang/buck of a commodity PC (and of course, > > 3-generation old PCs can be plucked from select trash cans...) > > (available: 90Mhz Pentium I system, HDD, CD, 14inch SVGA monitor. > > MSDOS6.22, > > W3.1, W95 'update'. Works fine. Free. Buyer pays postage. note that > > it's probably not WORTH the postage... Getting to the point where it's > > not worth the space it's taking. Sigh.) > > We thought of that too, the original HCS & HCS II were ucontroller > boards that were meant to run without the PC (1985 - 1992, at the time > a very expensive device for 1 time costs). Part of the goals for this > project are to have a device that runs without a PC running 7x24, run > a long time on backup power and be as reliable as is reasonable. The > biggest problem with PC's is it moving parts tend to wear out fast. > I've gone through a lot of drives (CD's, hard drives & floppies) over > the years > > -- > Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherryKILLspamcomcast.net > http://home.comcast.net/~ncherry/ (Text only) > http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) > http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II) > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics > (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics > -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

D. Jay Newman wrote: >>William Chops Westfield wrote: Uhm, I wrote this: {Quote hidden}>>project are to have a device that runs without a PC running 7x24, run >>a long time on backup power and be as reliable as is reasonable. The >>biggest problem with PC's is it moving parts tend to wear out fast. >>I've gone through a lot of drives (CD's, hard drives & floppies) over >>the years > > > How about using one of the VIA Epia motherboards and a compact flash > card as a disk? No moving parts and they are inexpensive. Sure, they're > not as fast as a high-powered system, but they can be made so they don't > need a fan! Upload/Install software via a USB drive, disconnect it, and > the system should run fine. David & D. Jay, I wonder how long a compact flash card would last in a PC with Windows or Linux. You'd have to limit swaps & be careful of writes. I guess you could take advantage of a RAM fs. It would be difficult to run something like MisterHouse to accomplish this. I'm not saying possible. -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry EraseMEncherryspam_OUTTakeThisOuTcomcast.net http://home.comcast.net/~ncherry/ (Text only) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II) -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

> D. Jay Newman wrote: > >>William Chops Westfield wrote: > > Uhm, I wrote this: Sorry. > David & D. Jay, I wonder how long a compact flash card would last > in a PC with Windows or Linux. You'd have to limit swaps & be careful > of writes. I guess you could take advantage of a RAM fs. It would > be difficult to run something like MisterHouse to accomplish this. > I'm not saying possible. There seems to be a lot of work in running Linux from embedded systems. I believe there is a special flash filesystem to increase the longevity of the flash. I would use two flash cards: 1 for the read-only parts of the system, and one for the read/write parts. To my mind that would simplify things greatly. Of course, I would probably would only optimize this *after* I got a system working. :) -- D. Jay Newman ! jayspam_OUTsprucegrove.com ! Xander: Giles, don't make cave-slayer unhappy. http://enerd.ws/robots/ ! -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

D. Jay Newman wrote: >>D. Jay Newman wrote: Your software seems to have a problem with attributes. >> >>>>William Chops Westfield wrote: >> >>Uhm, I wrote this: Just pointing out the mistake. :-) {Quote hidden}> Sorry. > > >>David & D. Jay, I wonder how long a compact flash card would last >>in a PC with Windows or Linux. You'd have to limit swaps & be careful >>of writes. I guess you could take advantage of a RAM fs. It would >>be difficult to run something like MisterHouse to accomplish this. >>I'm not saying possible. > > > There seems to be a lot of work in running Linux from embedded systems. > > I believe there is a special flash filesystem to increase the longevity > of the flash. > > I would use two flash cards: 1 for the read-only parts of the system, > and one for the read/write parts. To my mind that would simplify things > greatly. > > Of course, I would probably would only optimize this *after* I got a > system working. :) I may give the flash cards a try as I have a PC104 set here. That is when I get time. ;-) And yes I'd do the same having a hard drive for testing and a flash card for the final runs. Thanks for the info on the flash. -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry @spam@ncherryKILLspamcomcast.net http://home.comcast.net/~ncherry/ (Text only) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II) -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

D. Jay Newman wrote: >>D. Jay Newman wrote: >> >>>>D. Jay Newman wrote: >> >>Your software seems to have a problem with attributes. > > > I'm now copying it the same as it was (no deletions); I'm seeing if it's > the software or myself. I'm using "elm" if it matters. Oh, it has something to do with elm. There may be an option for adding the correct attributes but I can't remember it. >>I may give the flash cards a try as I have a PC104 set here. That is >>when I get time. ;-) And yes I'd do the same having a hard drive for >>testing and a flash card for the final runs. >> >>Thanks for the info on the flash. > > > I like flash. No moving parts! :) As long as I don't write it into oblivion I'm happy. Heck if I could figure out a way to keep the drive and make it reliable (and reasonable in cost) I'd go that route. :-) -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry RemoveMEncherryTakeThisOuTcomcast.net http://home.comcast.net/~ncherry/ (Text only) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II) -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics (like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

On Wednesday, Nov 19, 2003, at 09:58 US/Pacific, D. Jay Newman wrote: > >> David & D. Jay, I wonder how long a compact flash card would last >> in a PC with Windows or Linux. You'd have to limit swaps & be careful >> of writes. I guess you could take advantage of a RAM fs. It would >> be difficult to run something like MisterHouse to accomplish this. >> I'm not saying possible. >> There are linux systems designed for things like disk repair or routers that manage to put an awful lot of utility on a single floppy disk, which is uncompressed to a ramdisk where it actually runs from. Requires something like 16M of ram to work, total. Includes internet utils (but not a full web browser or server.) The implication is that you can fit an internet capable linux plus a sizable custom application in something like 2M of permanent storage an run it on an ancient PC. Shades of DOS, but a lot more modern. The one I've played a with a bit is "tomsrtbt": http://www.toms.net/rb/ BillW -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

Hi, Russell McMahon asked: <snip> >If one wanted embedded internet capability at some stage: > >- What are the alternative "foot in the water" "plug it in and go" web >capable options at anything like this price? > >- What is the price? > I know of something quite promising :) (no *real* on hands experience though), Look here: http://www.commanderx.com/ Yes that is an complete net i/f, web server, tcp/ip stack housed inside an RJ45 jacket ! With ttl rs232 output/inouts. Amazing little critter. From what I gathered during my survey it would be quite trvivial to use as an serial gateway. As per march this year 2003 I received this 'price indication': >The prices for a single XPort is at the moment 46 euros and price for the >developement kit is 140 euros. Prices for quantities of 1000 and upwards >will be around 40 euros. Which is really good IMHO, the price is not very far from an standalone NIC. /Tony -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.