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'[EE:] Help identifying two chips'
2004\08\20@221854 by Josh Koffman

face picon face
Hi all. I picked up two cheap cell phone batteries today (for an
Audiovox 3100), with the idea that I'll use them to power a new
project. Lithium Ion batteries for $3, I love surplus!

However, now I have to charge them. Here I have problems, as I know
LiON cells can be picky. I popped one of the cases open to take a
look. Inside is small PCB with two chips, which I'm guessing are the
battery supervisors. However, I can't seem to find anything about them
with google. The larger one (an SO8) is marked like this:
9926
("S" logo with possibly arrowheads at the tips or a line through it)
BM (triangle symbol)
(small circle) W06C

The second chip, a six pin affair (possibly 6 pin SO23?) is marked like this:
MBOR
(dot) (M logo, most closely like this: .\\, except the . is a small line)

Any help identifying these would be appreciated. I will try to get a picture.

I've also been looking at some charging chips from Maxim, but I'm
honestly not sure how many "cells" I have. It's a 3.6V 1100mAh pack,
and on the inside is the little circuit board, and a flat rectangular
pack about 1"7/8 x 1"3/8 x 5/16". It seems to be one solid piece, not
smaller cells heatshrunk together. Is that considered one cell?

Thanks!
Josh
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2004\08\20@222059 by Dave VanHorn

flavicon
face
>
>However, now I have to charge them. Here I have problems, as I know
>LiON cells can be picky. I popped one of the cases open to take a
>look. Inside is small PCB with two chips, which I'm guessing are the
>battery supervisors. However, I can't seem to find anything about them
>with google. The larger one (an SO8) is marked like this:
>9926
>("S" logo with possibly arrowheads at the tips or a line through it)
>BM (triangle symbol)
>(small circle) W06C


Why not use the phone as a charger?
Used cellphones are almost literally a dime a dozen.

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2004\08\20@222513 by Shawn Wilton

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face
It's likely there are more cells in there.  If you can get a pic, we
could tell you for sure.  I just took a LiIon out of an old Dell
notebook and thought it felt like  single piece, it turned out to be
about 6 cells all together.


Shawn Wilton
Junior in CpE
MicroBiologist

http://black9.net

Josh Koffman wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2004\08\21@001758 by Martin Klingensmith

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flavicon
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Josh Koffman wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Hi Josh,
LiI cells are indeed very picky. Each cell is 3.6v so it is probable
that you have just a single cell. You should be able to look inside the
charger wall-wart and figure out what you need special, if anything.
Most are 4.2v I believe[?] and the battery management circuit will take
care of the charging [preventing overcharge which is very bad] and may
help with over-discharge.
So to summarize, I don't really know anything. Perhaps you should search
the electric vehicle list:
<http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html>
I run an archive which I am biased toward:
<http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/ev>
There should be a LOT about lithium ion battery management.

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2004\08\21@002308 by William Chops Westfield

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On Aug 20, 2004, at 7:21 PM, Dave VanHorn wrote:

>> However, now I have to charge them. Here I have problems, as I know
>> LiON cells can be picky. I popped one of the cases open to take a
>> look. Inside is small PCB with two chips, which I'm guessing are the
>> battery supervisors.

Probably one supervisor and one power mosfet.

A benchtop (constant current, constant voltage) power supply does a
fine job of charging bare Li-ion cells.  If your battery packs are
'known good', it may be useful to leave the protection circuit inline;
it sounds like one of the simpler ones that just does the
current/voltage limits, rather than one of the ones you have to talk to
before you can use the battery...

BillW

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2004\08\21@002459 by Josh Koffman

face picon face
Actually, I'm starting to really think it's only one cell. First off,
it's pretty tiny. I had the dimensions in my other post. Second,
according to http://www.houseofbatteries.com/HowTo/Lion.htm the
nominal cell voltage is 3.6V, exactly what I have here. I guess it
could be more than one in parallel, but it doesn't seem large enough
or have a high enough capacity to be likely.

And about using a phone to charge...I thought about that. However, I
haven't been able to find one yet. As well, there will be two of these
packs in my project. It would look kinda goofy to have to carry two
cell phones around to charge them. I've found a bunch of semi-easy to
use charging chips at Maxim. The MAX1874 even allows you to switch
power to the load so you can run the device and charge the battery
simultaneously. However, I'm worried about the protection circuit I'm
supposed to have on the battery. If I can't figure out what's in there
now, I'm prepared to build a new one. Anyone know of some sample
circuits for this? I found a datasheet for TI's BQ29400. I'm a little
unclear about charging though. Does my charger just connect across the
ultimate ends of my battery pack, while the BQ29400 picks off in
between each cell so it can monitor them?

Thanks!

Josh
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On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 19:24:42 -0700, Shawn Wilton <spam_OUTshawnTakeThisOuTspamblack9.net> wrote:
> It's likely there are more cells in there.  If you can get a pic, we
> could tell you for sure.  I just took a LiIon out of an old Dell
> notebook and thought it felt like  single piece, it turned out to be
> about 6 cells all together.

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2004\08\21@002909 by Josh Koffman

face picon face
How do I know what current to charge at? I've noticed that most
chargers seem to talk about 4.2V. I'm a bit afraid that it won't be
quite so easy to talk to the protection circuit. The battery pack has
4 pins. After looking at some of the protection circuits available, it
seems like it shouldn't be too hard to construct one of my own. They
only seem to protect against overvoltage and undervoltage. Is this all
I need?

Josh
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completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools.
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On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:23:27 -0700, William Chops Westfield
<.....westfwKILLspamspam@spam@mac.com> wrote:
> Probably one supervisor and one power mosfet.
>
> A benchtop (constant current, constant voltage) power supply does a
> fine job of charging bare Li-ion cells.  If your battery packs are
> 'known good', it may be useful to leave the protection circuit inline;
> it sounds like one of the simpler ones that just does the
> current/voltage limits, rather than one of the ones you have to talk to
> before you can use the battery...

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2004\08\21@005250 by Engineering Info

picon face
Li-Ion cells are nominally at 3.6V per cell and are typically charged to
either 4.1V or 4.2V depending on the manufacturer and your needs.  Yes,
the SO8 is indeed a battery superviser meant to stop any discharging
when the cell drops to around 3V among other things.  And by the looks
of it, the chip was made about the end of June 1999 (9926 = 26th week of
1999).  I would suspect that the battery itself was close to the same
age and is probally of little value due to the fact that  Li-Ion has a
typical life span of about 2-3 years and ages even without use.  The 6
pin IC is a Motorola part and is the power switch that disconnects the
battery when the voltage drops below 3V.

Charge rate on smaller Li-Ion batteries such as cell phone batteries can
be done at a 1C charge but would be better at about one third of that.

Josh Koffman wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2004\08\21@005457 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
On Aug 20, 2004, at 9:28 PM, Josh Koffman wrote:

> How do I know what current to charge at? I've noticed that most
> chargers seem to talk about 4.2V. I'm a bit afraid that it won't be
> quite so easy to talk to the protection circuit. The battery pack has
> 4 pins. After looking at some of the protection circuits available, it
> seems like it shouldn't be too hard to construct one of my own. They
> only seem to protect against overvoltage and undervoltage. Is this all
> I need?
>
Well, I can tell you my theories.  They don't have a lot of testing
behind them, but they seem to match most of what I've read elsewhere,
and aren't directly inconsistent with any datasheets I've read.

The "protection" circuit will usually protect against three things:
1) Undervoltage.  If you discharge a Li-ion cell below a critical
voltage
   (somewhere around 3V, IIRC), you have destroyed the cell.  It will
   never charge again, and it's time to throw away.  The simplest
   prottection circuit simply monitors the actual battery voltage, and
   cuts out the battery (turns off the mosfet) when the actual cell
   voltage gets too low.

2) Overcurrent.  You don't want to short or discharge Li-ions too hard.
   Many battery packs  have a sense resistor and will cut out the mosfet
   in this case as well.  I *think* this is primarily a safety issue.

3) Overtemp.  There's apparently a runaway chemical reaction that can
   occur in Li-ion cells if they get too hot for any combination of
   reasons.  So many battery packs contain temperature sensors in
   addition to everything else...

4) fuses, fusible links, and so on.  In addition to the "smart"
   electronics, many Li-ion packs will contain fuses and/or fusible
   links, perhaps for each cell.  As a backup, or against the
possibility
   of one cell getting damaged somehow.  Sometimes the fusible links are
   built into the "caps" of each cell, making them somewhat harder to,
   ah, eliminate from the circuit...

None of those have much to do with charging, other than the fact that
having all that stuff in there can interfere with charging by just
connecting up the power.  Fancier battery packs may contain additional
logic designed to assist with charging (ie by permitting each set of
parallel cells to be charged individually), or to do assorted "battery
life monitoring" ("smart batteries."  What a bad idea :-)

To charge a Li-ion cell, you apply it's peak voltage (4.1 or 4.2V,
depending on chemistry) until the current it draws drops to about zero.
(in the meantime, you don't want to feed it TOO much current, though.
About 0.5 to 1C is probably a good rate.)
I guess there's supposed to be a time limit as well.  Most of the fires
I've heard about involve modelers accidentally putting their 7V (2
series cells, nominal) packs on the 11V charger setting, and then
suppling LOTS
of current for a "quick charge."  Usually with a pack that's been
physically damaged.  (there's apparently some controversy in the
modeling world just how many of the reports of Li-battery related fires
are
actually "real", and whether any of them have occurred under "normal"
circumstances.)

For a homebrew project using surplus cells, my logic says charge to 4V
at less than 1C, and avoid issues with unknown chemistry and uncertain
power supply accuracy.  I can live with slightly reduced run times
and/or fewer than the ideal number of charge cycles if I'm not paying
$100+ for the battery pack.

YMMV.  Don't burn down the house...

BillW

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2004\08\21@054716 by Philip Pemberton

face picon face
In message <3e0a4bc404082019167307abf6spamKILLspammail.gmail.com>>          Josh Koffman <.....joshybearKILLspamspam.....GMAIL.COM> wrote:

> look. Inside is small PCB with two chips, which I'm guessing are the
> battery supervisors. However, I can't seem to find anything about them
> with google. The larger one (an SO8) is marked like this:
[...]
> ("S" logo with possibly arrowheads at the tips or a line through it)
[...]
> (dot) (M logo, most closely like this: .\\, except the . is a small line)

Have a look at <http://www.elnec.com/iclogos.php>. If you can't find the logo
on there, there's a program called "IC-ID" on my website (soon to be
rewritten - Borland BDE is nasty) - download it and have a look through the
database.

Later.
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2004\08\21@100812 by Josh Koffman

face picon face
Hm, well, somewhat discouraging. I might as well try to charge them
once I get back to my office on Wednesday. I mean, I already have
them, and as long as I limit the current and voltage, I will hopefully
avoid fires. Now I just have to figure out which of the pins on the
outer package are negative and positive.

I'm not sure the smaller chip is a Motorola part. The logo is wrong.
Motorola's logo is symmetrical and has "webbing" at the top junctions
of the M. This logo is slanted, and uses just lines. I tried to get a
picture of it, but the digital camera just wouldn't pick up the
writing. I will try again later. Plus I'm downloading Philip's program
(thanks Philip!). I will try charging at 1/3C and see what happens. If
it works, I'll probably keep the protection circuit that's in there
now and just use one of the charger chips from Maxim or others.

Thanks!

Josh
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completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
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On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:51:33 -0700, Engineering Info
<engineering-infospamspam_OUTearthlink.net> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2004\08\21@101226 by Josh Koffman

face picon face
Philip,

I've checked that website, and no dice. Actually, I just downloaded
your program and i'm running into problems. First off, during
installation, the Borland portion complained that there wasn't enough
hard drive space. A 3MB download requiring more than 25 gigs? That's
some compression scheme :)

Now when I try to start it up, I get "Network initialization failed.
Drive not ready. File A:\PDOXUSRS.NET Directory: A:\." After it tries
to access my floppy drive. This computer is running XPhome. Any ideas?

Josh
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completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools.
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On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 10:44:25 +0100, Philip Pemberton
<@spam@philpemKILLspamspamdsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> Have a look at <http://www.elnec.com/iclogos.php>. If you can't find the logo
> on there, there's a program called "IC-ID" on my website (soon to be
> rewritten - Borland BDE is nasty) - download it and have a look through the
> database.

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2004\08\21@135924 by Dwayne Reid

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face
At 08:16 PM 8/20/2004, Josh Koffman wrote:
>Hi all. I picked up two cheap cell phone batteries today (for an
>Audiovox 3100), with the idea that I'll use them to power a new
>project. Lithium Ion batteries for $3, I love surplus!
>
>I've also been looking at some charging chips from Maxim, but I'm
>honestly not sure how many "cells" I have. It's a 3.6V 1100mAh pack,
>and on the inside is the little circuit board, and a flat rectangular
>pack about 1"7/8 x 1"3/8 x 5/16". It seems to be one solid piece, not
>smaller cells heatshrunk together. Is that considered one cell?

I'm pretty sure that you have a single li-Ion cell there.  The easiest way
to charge it is to feed it a 250 mA current limited voltage source of 4.100
Vdc.  Put a load on the pack and try to get a guesstimate of the
capacity.  If the apparent capacity is about half of what you expect,
recharge it exactly the same way, except set the charge voltage to 4.200 Vdc.

Charging a single cell is not black magic - it just seems that way because
of the extreme voltage precision required.  The major difference between
the two readily available cell types is whether they use carbon or graphite
electrodes (same element but different physical characteristics) - one type
has an end-of-charge voltage of 4.100 V, the other uses 4.200 V.

You should not discharge either type below 3.0V.

Hope this helps!

dwayne

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2004\08\23@034846 by hael Rigby-Jones

picon face
>-----Original Message-----
>From: pic microcontroller discussion list
>[RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU] On Behalf Of Josh Koffman
>Sent: 21 August 2004 03:17
>To: spamBeGonePICLISTspamBeGonespamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: [EE:] Help identifying two chips
>
>
>The second chip, a six pin affair (possibly 6 pin SO23?) is
>marked like this: MBOR
>(dot) (M logo, most closely like this: .\\, except the . is a
>small line)

Sounds like the Microchip logo!

Mike

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2004\08\23@074523 by Alan B. Pearce

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>I'm not sure the smaller chip is a Motorola part.

Your original description of the logo made me think of the Microchip logo.

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2004\08\23@074732 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>First off, during installation, the Borland portion
>complained that there wasn't enough hard drive space.
>A 3MB download requiring more than 25 gigs? That's
>some compression scheme :)

I have seen this effect when the operating system is the newest
all-singing-and-dancing extremely large disk capable, and the program one is
trying to install just doesn't know about such humungous amounts of disk
space, and proceeds to take only the bottom handful of bits of the disk size
to perform the available space computation.

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2004\08\23@112005 by Josh Koffman

face picon face
Well, not quite. The Microchip logo is more symmetrical left to right
(in terms of the angles). The line structure is similar, but in my
logo the two leftmost lines are vertical, while in the Mchip logo they
are slanted. Also, my logo doesn't have a circle background. I'm going
to try to get a scan soon.

Josh
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On Mon, 23 Aug 2004 12:47:09 +0100, Alan B. Pearce <EraseMEa.b.pearcespamrl.ac.uk> wrote:
> Your original description of the logo made me think of the Microchip logo.

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2004\08\23@151814 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
On Aug 23, 2004, at 4:49 AM, Alan B. Pearce wrote:

>> First off, during installation, the Borland portion
>> complained that there wasn't enough hard drive space.
>> A 3MB download requiring more than 25 gigs? That's
>> some compression scheme :)
>
> I have seen this effect when the operating system is the newest
> all-singing-and-dancing extremely large disk capable, and the program
> one is trying to install just doesn't know about such humungous
> amounts of disk space, and proceeds to take only the bottom handful of
> bits

Yeah, like 32bits, which is "only" 2 or 4GB.

BillW

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2004\08\23@202946 by Peter van Hoof

picon face
There is a nice chip id page at http://www.elektronikforum.de/ic-id/
with pictures of all logo's

Peter van Hoof


{Original Message removed}

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