Post by thread:[EE:] Diesel engine cutout

IIRC, and based on heresay only, it is usually just a matter of shutting off the fuel pump --Joe On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 15:00:37 -0400, Roland <spam_OUTjemelectricTakeThisOuTmweb.co.za> wrote: {Quote hidden}> > Hi all > > Does anyone know the normal method used to cut-out a diesel engine. > If mechanical only, I presume a valve needs to be retrofitted on the high > pressure side, > and if modern electric, is it OK to just interrupt the solenoid power, or > will this cause the enginer management to go wonky? > > Regards > Roland Jollivet > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different > ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details. > -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

Modern diesels have an electrical device as part of the mechanical injector pump. IIRC it requires current to allow the motor to run (interrupt the current they shut down) On older (before computers) diesels it was common to have a large butterfly valve to close the intake (air) for manual shutdown. Putting valves on the high pressure side of the injector pump would be *real* bad, the pump is a positive displacement type mechanically geared to the motor, the pressure will rise until something breaks. A valve before the injector pump would be a bad idea. The fuel is used as a lubricant in the pump, running it dry would not tend enhance it's lifespan. Plus you'd have to prime the injector pump again every time (a notoriously difficult process) In modern computer controlled diesels I think interrupting the fuel would cause a fault condition, but that might only be a matter of a check engine light. I don't believe interrupting the electric line to the injector pump would cause a problem, that's how the key controls the motor anyway. Would this be an automotive engine or something else (pump, generator, etc)? -Denny {Quote hidden}> Hi all > > Does anyone know the normal method used to cut-out a diesel engine. > If mechanical only, I presume a valve needs to be retrofitted on the high > pressure side, > and if modern electric, is it OK to just interrupt the solenoid power, or > will this cause the enginer management to go wonky? > > Regards > Roland Jollivet > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different > ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

In a message dated 6/22/2004 4:31:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, .....firmwareKILLspam@spam@TDS.NET writes: Modern diesels have an electrical device as part of the mechanical injector pump. IIRC it requires current to allow the motor to run (interrupt the current they shut down) On older (before computers) diesels it was common to have a large butterfly valve to close the intake (air) for manual shutdown. Putting valves on the high pressure side of the injector pump would be *real* bad, the pump is a positive displacement type mechanically geared to the motor, the pressure will rise until something breaks. A valve before the injector pump would be a bad idea. The fuel is used as a lubricant in the pump, running it dry would not tend enhance it's lifespan. Plus you'd have to prime the injector pump again every time (a notoriously difficult process) In modern computer controlled diesels I think interrupting the fuel would cause a fault condition, but that might only be a matter of a check engine light. I don't believe interrupting the electric line to the injector pump would cause a problem, that's how the key controls the motor anyway. Would this be an automotive engine or something else (pump, generator, etc)? -Denny {Quote hidden}> Hi all > > Does anyone know the normal method used to cut-out a diesel engine. > If mechanical only, I presume a valve needs to be retrofitted on the high > pressure side, > and if modern electric, is it OK to just interrupt the solenoid power, or > will this cause the enginer management to go wonky? > > Regards > Roland Jollivet > > -- > http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different > ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details. When I was a mechanic for some fleet companies, we used mostly Cummins diesels with a few Detroit and Caterpillar engines. On a Cummins they actually have a solenoid valve that shuts off the fuel supply to the injector pump. On Detroits it is a mechanical fuel injector linkage that shuts off the fuel to the injectors. On newer engines they will use a computer controlled shut down system. It has been a number of years since I worked on those so I don't know the details of how they do it now. Although, my brother-in-law has a '97 Dodge 2500 with a Cummins engine in it and they still have the solenoid valve on the injector pump. Of course the overall operation of the engine is controlled by a computer. Regarding having to prime the engine, you would only have to do that if you let the tank and filters run out of fuel. Not if the injector rail runs out of fuel. Since there is a return line from the injector rail it usually is almost empty anyway when not running, at least there is air in there until the pump starts back up. Randy Abernathy 4626 Old Stilesboro Road NW Acworth, GA 30101-4066 Phone / Fax: 770-974-5295 Cell: 678-772-4113 E-mail: Cnc002KILLspamaol.com I furnish technical support, repair, and other related services for your industrial woodworking machinery. My background as Senior Service Engineer for the SCMI Group for nearly fifteen years with factory training, combines with my extensive background in electronics, mechanics, pneumatics, electrical and CNC machinery to offer you needed support for your machinery. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

> Regarding having to prime the engine, you would only have to do that if you > let the tank and filters run out of fuel. Not if the injector rail runs out > of fuel. Since there is a return line from the injector rail it usually is > almost empty anyway when not running, at least there is air in there until the > pump starts back up. > > Randy Abernathy I agree, priming is only a significant issue when the fuel is stopped at the tank, allowing the filters and lines to empty. Modern automotive systems have a low pressure electric pump in the tank- I was suggesting that interrupting the power there would not be the best idea. Careful with the idea of an injector rail and return line, gas engines have this but diesels don't. Between the injector pump and the injectors are separate lines to each cylinder- and no return line. (though some have return lines before the injector pump) -Denny -- http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different ways. See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.

>-----Original Message----- >From: Denny Esterline [.....firmwareKILLspam.....TDS.NET] > >Careful with the idea of an injector rail and return line, gas >engines have this but diesels don't. Between the injector pump >and the injectors are separate lines to each cylinder- and no >return line. (though some have return lines before the injector pump) > Many modern diesels do have an injector rail, often refered to as "common rail" diesel engines. They have solenoid acutated injectors controlled by an ECU i.e. they are very simmilar to injected gas engines, other than the fuel pressure is an order of magnitude higher (~1600 Bar) and is injected directly into the cylinder. Regards Mike ======================================================================= This e-mail is intended for the person it is addressed to only. The information contained in it may be confidential and/or protected by law. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, you must not make any use of this information, or copy or show it to any person. Please contact us immediately to tell us that you have received this e-mail, and return the original to us. Any use, forwarding, printing or copying of this message is strictly prohibited. No part of this message can be considered a request for goods or services. ======================================================================= Any questions about Bookham's E-Mail service should be directed to EraseMEpostmasterspam_OUTTakeThisOuTbookham.com. -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email listservspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

In a message dated 6/23/2004 4:21:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, KILLspamA.B.PearceKILLspamRL.AC.UK writes: Careful with the idea of an injector rail and return line, >gas engines have this but diesels don't. Huh ??? How come most car diesels these days are called "common rail injector" then ?? My understanding is that this is one of the areas that has resulted in considerable increases in efficiency of diesel engines resulting in lower emissions and higher performance. Cummins has been using a common injector rail and return line for as long as I know about. One of the "tricks" that truck drivers commonly use to try and increase the power of their trucks is to drill a small hole in a dime and place it in the RETURN line going directly back into the fuel tank to increase the back pressure on the fuel rail, or they will use visegrip pliers to crimp the line. Where do you think they got the idea for the injector fuel rail for gasoline engines? Now, on the some of the smaller diesels, 4 cyl and the old 8 cyl that GM tried using in their Oldsmobiles back in the 70's, they use a high pressure injection system. But, on the big diesels they used a fuel rail for the injectors and a return line back to the fuel tank. Just for information, I was a professional diesel mechanic for 10 years. Randy Abernathy 4626 Old Stilesboro Road NW Acworth, GA 30101-4066 Phone / Fax: 770-974-5295 Cell: 678-772-4113 E-mail: RemoveMECnc002TakeThisOuTaol.com I furnish technical support, repair, and other related services for your industrial woodworking machinery. My background as Senior Service Engineer for the SCMI Group for nearly fifteen years with factory training, combines with my extensive background in electronics, mechanics, pneumatics, electrical and CNC machinery to offer you needed support for your machinery. -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email spamBeGonelistservspamBeGonemitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

{Quote hidden}>-----Original Message----- >From: Denny Esterline [firmwareEraseME.....TDS.NET] >Sent: 23 June 2004 17:34 >To: EraseMEPICLISTMITVMA.MIT.EDU >Subject: Re: [EE:] Diesel engine cutout > > >> Many modern diesels do have an injector rail, often refered to as >> "common rail" diesel engines. They have solenoid acutated injectors >> controlled >by >> an ECU i.e. they are very simmilar to injected gas engines, >other than >the >> fuel pressure is an order of magnitude higher (~1600 Bar) and is >> injected directly into the cylinder. >> >> Regards >> >> Mike >> >Hmmm.... I haven't heard of this before. Can you link some >reference material? Or point out a specific make/model that >has it so I can resarch it some? > >-Denny Pretty much all the major manufacturers in Europe have a common rail turbo diesel. Of the top of my head: Ford - TDCi Peugeot/Citroen - Hdi Opel/Vauxhall - CDTi Fiat - JTD Alfa Romeo - JTD BMW have a fantastic 3 litre 6 cylinder common rail turbo diesel that is as quick as the 3 litre petrol (gas) engined car. One of the best automotive diesel engines ever made. One of the big advantages is that the diesel in not injected all at once. By injecting a small amount of diesel before the main charge, the combustion process can be made more efficient and the diesel noise is considerably reduced. A bit of information and a few links on this page: http://www.bmwworld.com/technology/common_rail.htm The Volvo system http://www.swedespeed.com/news/publish/Features/printer_272.html Regards Mike ======================================================================= This e-mail is intended for the person it is addressed to only. The information contained in it may be confidential and/or protected by law. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, you must not make any use of this information, or copy or show it to any person. Please contact us immediately to tell us that you have received this e-mail, and return the original to us. Any use, forwarding, printing or copying of this message is strictly prohibited. No part of this message can be considered a request for goods or services. ======================================================================= Any questions about Bookham's E-Mail service should be directed to RemoveMEpostmasterEraseMEEraseMEbookham.com. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList RemoveMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestspam_OUTKILLspammitvma.mit.edu

> One of the big advantages is that the diesel in not injected all at once. > By injecting a small amount of diesel before the main charge, the combustion > process can be made more efficient and the diesel noise is considerably > reduced. > > A bit of information and a few links on this page: > http://www.bmwworld.com/technology/common_rail.htm > > The Volvo system > http://www.swedespeed.com/news/publish/Features/printer_272.html > > Regards > > Mike > Very interesting, not at all like the last diesel I worked with :o) The third generation electronic injectors with piezo actuators is an interesting twist. I knew piezo actuators had been developed, but I didn't know they had been implemented commercially yet. Back to the subject at hand, judging by the diagram at the bmwworld link above, interrupting the power to the pump would not be a good choice. Interrupting the power to the injectors might be an option. -Denny -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList RemoveMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestTakeThisOuTspammitvma.mit.edu

In a message dated 6/24/2004 11:46:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, RemoveMEdwheelerKILLspamINSIGHTEK.NET writes: In pickup trucks like the Dodge/Cummins 6L they have a common rail as well. It's amazing how much pressure is created in the new diesel fuel rails these days. You would not want to have your hands under one of the injectors when it "fires". When I was working as a mechanic, we had an injector test jig where you could put the specified pressure on the injector and the activate it. I have seen guys get their hands or a finger under the injector by accident and the diesel fuel would go right into the hand or finger. A few lost thier fingers as a result. Some of these develop 2500 psi and up. Newer ones, I understand, can be well over 3000 psi. Randy Abernathy 4626 Old Stilesboro Road NW Acworth, GA 30101-4066 Phone / Fax: 770-974-5295 Cell: 678-772-4113 E-mail: Cnc002STOPspamspam_OUTaol.com I furnish technical support, repair, and other related services for your industrial woodworking machinery. My background as Senior Service Engineer for the SCMI Group for nearly fifteen years with factory training, combines with my extensive background in electronics, mechanics, pneumatics, electrical and CNC machinery to offer you needed support for your machinery. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList spamBeGonepiclist-unsubscribe-requestSTOPspamEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu

{Quote hidden}>-----Original Message----- >From: Randy Abernathy [KILLspamCnc002spamBeGoneAOL.COM] >Sent: 24 June 2004 17:01 >To: EraseMEPICLISTEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU >Subject: Re: [EE:] Diesel engine cutout > > >In a message dated 6/24/2004 11:46:26 AM Eastern Daylight >Time, @spam@dwheeler@spam@spam_OUTINSIGHTEK.NET writes: > >In pickup trucks like the Dodge/Cummins 6L they have a common >rail as well. It's amazing how much pressure is created in >the new diesel fuel rails these days. > > >You would not want to have your hands under one of the >injectors when it "fires". When I was working as a mechanic, >we had an injector test jig where you could put the specified >pressure on the injector and the activate it. I have seen >guys get their hands or a finger under the injector by >accident and the diesel fuel would go right into the hand or >finger. A few lost thier fingers as a result. > >Some of these develop 2500 psi and up. Newer ones, I >understand, can be well over 3000 psi. Try 1600 BAR for a common rail system! That's over 23000 PSI. Regards Mike ======================================================================= This e-mail is intended for the person it is addressed to only. The information contained in it may be confidential and/or protected by law. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, you must not make any use of this information, or copy or show it to any person. Please contact us immediately to tell us that you have received this e-mail, and return the original to us. Any use, forwarding, printing or copying of this message is strictly prohibited. No part of this message can be considered a request for goods or services. ======================================================================= Any questions about Bookham's E-Mail service should be directed to spamBeGonepostmasterKILLspambookham.com. -- http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic: [PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads