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'[EE:] Diesel engine cutout'
2004\06\22@150037 by Roland

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Hi all

Does anyone know the normal method used to cut-out a diesel engine.
If mechanical only, I presume a valve needs to be retrofitted on the high
pressure side,
and if modern electric, is it OK to just interrupt the solenoid power, or
will this cause the enginer management to go wonky?

Regards
Roland Jollivet

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2004\06\22@151656 by Joe Jansen

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IIRC, and based on heresay only, it is usually just a matter of
shutting off the fuel pump

--Joe

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 15:00:37 -0400, Roland <spam_OUTjemelectricTakeThisOuTspammweb.co.za> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2004\06\22@162937 by Denny Esterline

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Modern diesels have an electrical device as part of the mechanical injector
pump. IIRC it requires current to allow the motor to run (interrupt the
current they shut down) On older (before computers) diesels it was common
to have a large butterfly valve to close the intake (air) for manual
shutdown.

Putting valves on the high pressure side of the injector pump would be
*real* bad, the pump is a positive displacement type mechanically geared to
the motor, the pressure will rise until something breaks.

A valve before the injector pump would be a bad idea. The fuel is used as a
lubricant in the pump, running it dry would not tend enhance it's lifespan.
Plus you'd have to prime the injector pump again every time (a notoriously
difficult process)

In modern computer controlled diesels I think interrupting the fuel would
cause a fault condition, but that might only be a matter of a check engine
light. I don't believe interrupting the electric line to the injector pump
would cause a problem, that's how the key controls the motor anyway.

Would this be an automotive engine or something else (pump, generator,
etc)?

-Denny



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2004\06\22@165749 by Randy Abernathy

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In a message dated 6/22/2004 4:31:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
.....firmwareKILLspamspam@spam@TDS.NET writes:

Modern  diesels have an electrical device as part of the mechanical injector
pump.  IIRC it requires current to allow the motor to run (interrupt the
current  they shut down) On older (before computers) diesels it was common
to have a  large butterfly valve to close the intake (air) for  manual
shutdown.

Putting valves on the high pressure side of the  injector pump would be
*real* bad, the pump is a positive displacement type  mechanically geared to
the motor, the pressure will rise until something  breaks.

A valve before the injector pump would be a bad idea. The fuel  is used as a
lubricant in the pump, running it dry would not tend enhance  it's lifespan.
Plus you'd have to prime the injector pump again every time  (a notoriously
difficult process)

In modern computer controlled  diesels I think interrupting the fuel would
cause a fault condition, but  that might only be a matter of a check engine
light. I don't believe  interrupting the electric line to the injector pump
would cause a problem,  that's how the key controls the motor anyway.

Would this be an  automotive engine or something else (pump,  generator,
etc)?

-Denny



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When I was a mechanic for some fleet companies, we used mostly  Cummins
diesels with a few Detroit and Caterpillar engines.  On a Cummins  they actually
have a solenoid valve that shuts off the fuel supply to the  injector pump.  On
Detroits it is a mechanical fuel injector linkage that  shuts off the fuel to
the injectors.  On newer engines they will use a  computer controlled shut
down system. It has been a number of years since I  worked on those so I don't
know the details of how they do it now.   Although, my brother-in-law has a '97
Dodge 2500 with a Cummins engine in it and  they still have the solenoid valve
on the injector pump.  Of course the  overall operation of the engine is
controlled by a computer.

Regarding having to prime the engine, you would only have to do that if you
let the tank and filters run out of fuel.  Not if the injector rail runs  out
of fuel.  Since there is a return line from the injector rail it  usually is
almost empty anyway when not running, at least there is air in there  until the
pump starts back up.

Randy  Abernathy
4626 Old Stilesboro Road NW
Acworth, GA 30101-4066
Phone /  Fax: 770-974-5295
Cell: 678-772-4113
E-mail: Cnc002spamKILLspamaol.com

I  furnish technical support, repair, and other related services for your
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my  extensive background in electronics, mechanics, pneumatics, electrical and
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2004\06\22@183717 by Dave Tweed

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> Does anyone know the normal method used to cut-out a diesel engine.

Most small diesels that I have seen (e.g., on electrical generators) have a
small lever coming out of the mechanical injection pump itself that is used
to shut down the engine, either manually or with a solenoid. Sometimes it's
part of the throttle linkage, sometimes independent.

-- Dave Tweed

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2004\06\22@230705 by Denny Esterline

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> Regarding having to prime the engine, you would only have to do that if
you
> let the tank and filters run out of fuel.  Not if the injector rail runs
out
> of fuel.  Since there is a return line from the injector rail it  usually
is
> almost empty anyway when not running, at least there is air in there
until the
> pump starts back up.
>
> Randy  Abernathy

I agree, priming is only a significant issue when the fuel is stopped at
the tank, allowing the filters and lines to empty. Modern automotive
systems have a low pressure electric pump in the tank- I was suggesting
that interrupting the power there would not be the best idea.

Careful with the idea of an injector rail and return line, gas engines have
this but diesels don't. Between the injector pump and the injectors are
separate lines to each cylinder- and no return line. (though some have
return lines before the injector pump)

-Denny

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2004\06\23@024703 by hael Rigby-Jones

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>-----Original Message-----
>From: Denny Esterline [.....firmwareKILLspamspam.....TDS.NET]
>
>Careful with the idea of an injector rail and return line, gas
>engines have this but diesels don't. Between the injector pump
>and the injectors are separate lines to each cylinder- and no
>return line. (though some have return lines before the injector pump)
>


Many modern diesels do have an injector rail, often refered to as "common
rail" diesel engines.  They have solenoid acutated injectors controlled by
an ECU i.e. they are very simmilar to injected gas engines, other than the
fuel pressure is an order of magnitude higher (~1600 Bar) and is injected
directly into the cylinder.

Regards

Mike




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2004\06\23@042023 by Alan B. Pearce

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>Careful with the idea of an injector rail and return line,
>gas engines have this but diesels don't.

Huh ??? How come most car diesels these days are called "common rail
injector" then ?? My understanding is that this is one of the areas that has
resulted in considerable increases in efficiency of diesel engines resulting
in lower emissions and higher performance.

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2004\06\23@122459 by Randy Abernathy

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In a message dated 6/23/2004 4:21:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
KILLspamA.B.PearceKILLspamspamRL.AC.UK writes:

Careful  with the idea of an injector rail and return line,
>gas engines have  this but diesels don't.

Huh ??? How come most car diesels these days  are called "common rail
injector" then ?? My understanding is that this is  one of the areas that has
resulted in considerable increases in efficiency  of diesel engines resulting
in lower emissions and higher  performance.




Cummins has been using a common injector rail and return line for as  long as
I know about.  One of the "tricks" that truck drivers commonly use  to try
and increase the power of their trucks is to drill a small hole in a dime  and
place it in the RETURN line going directly back into the fuel tank to  increase
the back pressure on the fuel rail, or they will use visegrip pliers to
crimp the line.  Where do you think they got the idea for the injector fuel  rail
for gasoline engines?

Now, on the some of the smaller diesels, 4 cyl and the old 8 cyl that GM
tried using in their Oldsmobiles back in the 70's, they use a high pressure
injection system.  But, on the big diesels they used a fuel rail for the
injectors and a return line back to the fuel tank.

Just for information, I was a professional diesel mechanic for 10  years.
Randy  Abernathy
4626 Old Stilesboro Road NW
Acworth, GA 30101-4066
Phone /  Fax: 770-974-5295
Cell: 678-772-4113
E-mail: RemoveMECnc002TakeThisOuTspamaol.com

I  furnish technical support, repair, and other related services for your
industrial woodworking machinery. My background as Senior Service Engineer for
the SCMI Group for nearly fifteen years with factory training, combines with
my  extensive background in electronics, mechanics, pneumatics, electrical and
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2004\06\23@122917 by Denny Esterline

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> Many modern diesels do have an injector rail, often refered to as "common
> rail" diesel engines.  They have solenoid acutated injectors controlled
by
> an ECU i.e. they are very simmilar to injected gas engines, other than
the
> fuel pressure is an order of magnitude higher (~1600 Bar) and is injected
> directly into the cylinder.
>
> Regards
>
> Mike
>
Hmmm....  I haven't heard of this before. Can you link some reference
material? Or point out a specific make/model that has it so I can resarch
it some?

-Denny

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2004\06\24@030432 by Peter L. Peres

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It is done by setting the demand lever or electronic equivalent below
idle. You do NOT shut off fuel to the engine. If you do that then the hp
pump will make a nice vacuum in the intake parts and eventually suck in
air. If that happens starting the engine later will be great fun, even if
no gaskets and o-rings are sucked off their seats. Just shutting off the
fuel may work for very small engines. In general diesels absolutely hate
air or vacuum in the fuel system.

Peter

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2004\06\24@033625 by hael Rigby-Jones

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{Quote hidden}

Pretty much all the major manufacturers in Europe have a common rail turbo
diesel.  Of the top of my head:

Ford - TDCi
Peugeot/Citroen - Hdi
Opel/Vauxhall - CDTi
Fiat - JTD
Alfa Romeo - JTD
BMW have a fantastic 3 litre 6 cylinder common rail turbo diesel that is as
quick as the 3 litre petrol (gas) engined car. One of the best automotive
diesel engines ever made.

One of the big advantages is that the diesel in not injected all at once.
By injecting a small amount of diesel before the main charge, the combustion
process can be made more efficient and the diesel noise is considerably
reduced.

A bit of information and a few links on this page:
http://www.bmwworld.com/technology/common_rail.htm

The Volvo system
http://www.swedespeed.com/news/publish/Features/printer_272.html

Regards

Mike






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2004\06\24@041022 by Denny Esterline

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> One of the big advantages is that the diesel in not injected all at once.
> By injecting a small amount of diesel before the main charge, the
combustion
> process can be made more efficient and the diesel noise is considerably
> reduced.
>
> A bit of information and a few links on this page:
> http://www.bmwworld.com/technology/common_rail.htm
>
> The Volvo system
> http://www.swedespeed.com/news/publish/Features/printer_272.html
>
> Regards
>
> Mike
>

Very interesting, not at all like the last diesel I worked with :o)
The third generation electronic injectors with piezo actuators is an
interesting twist. I knew piezo actuators had been developed, but I didn't
know they had been implemented commercially yet.

Back to the subject at hand, judging by the diagram at the bmwworld link
above, interrupting the power to the pump would not be a good choice.

Interrupting the power to the injectors might be an option.

-Denny

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2004\06\24@114506 by dal

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In pickup trucks like the Dodge/Cummins 6L they have a common rail as well.
It's amazing how much pressure is created in the new diesel fuel rails these
days.

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2004\06\24@120132 by Randy Abernathy

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In a message dated 6/24/2004 11:46:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
RemoveMEdwheelerKILLspamspamINSIGHTEK.NET writes:

In  pickup trucks like the Dodge/Cummins 6L they have a common rail as  well.
It's amazing how much pressure is created in the new diesel fuel  rails these
days.


You would not want to have your hands under one of the injectors when it
"fires".  When I was working as a mechanic, we had an injector test jig  where
you could put the specified pressure on the injector and the activate  it.  I
have seen guys get their hands or a finger under the injector by  accident and
the diesel fuel would go right into the hand or finger.  A few  lost thier
fingers as a result.

Some of these develop 2500 psi and up.  Newer ones, I understand, can  be
well over 3000 psi.




Randy  Abernathy
4626 Old Stilesboro Road NW
Acworth, GA 30101-4066
Phone /  Fax: 770-974-5295
Cell: 678-772-4113
E-mail: Cnc002STOPspamspamspam_OUTaol.com

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2004\06\25@032219 by hael Rigby-Jones

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{Quote hidden}

Try 1600 BAR for a common rail system!  That's over 23000 PSI.

Regards

Mike




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