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'[EE:] Cheap and simple wireless'
2004\04\29@101520 by Kevin Olalde

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They work as advertised.  There are two outputs on the receiver (I'm talking
about the older cheaper non-A version).  IIRC the analog output was stronger,
but noiser.

Manchester encoding and checksums improved things greatly.  I'd think some sort
of error correcting protocol to be very helpful too, I've not been there yet
though.

Thanks,
Kevin


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2004\04\30@120630 by Shawn Wilton

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Ok, so far no one has answered my question.  :-)  Any way to get some
decent wireless the old fashioned way w/o having to buy commercial modules?

-Shawn

Kevin Olalde wrote:
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2004\04\30@133948 by Herbert Graf

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> Ok, so far no one has answered my question.  :-)  Any way to get some
> decent wireless the old fashioned way w/o having to buy
> commercial modules?

       IMHO it's simply a better idea to go with the module, in the long run it'll
be far easier and cheaper to go with a module then to try and build one
yourself. Wireless is one of those thing that unless you are trying to do
something academic it's a far better idea for a hobbyist to go with a
commercial solution. Since the commercial solutions are SO cheap there are
very few reasons not to choose them. TTYL

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2004\04\30@134519 by Shawn Wilton

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Well, this is an academic pursuit of sorts.  I'll just throw something
together and let everyone know what I come up with.  :-)


Herbert Graf wrote:

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2004\04\30@134726 by Marcel van Lieshout

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You could look into the nRF24E1 from Nordic: http://www.nvlsi.no
2.4GHz transceiver with 8051 microcontroller on a single chip. Very very nice, I think.

If you know how to solder them at home, let me know please ;-)

Marcel

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2004\04\30@135415 by Shawn Wilton

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Cost?  I can't even find a link to a distrib.

Marcel van Lieshout wrote:

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2004\04\30@140243 by Marcel van Lieshout

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There is a list of distributors on their site:
http://www.nvlsi.com/index.cfm?obj=menu&act=displayMenu&men=6

Last time I checked prices with my local distr. was sept. 2003:
50x EUR 5,12  1000x EUR 4,10

I got a message from Nordic a short while ago that they increased production and that Logitech chose this
chip for a new line of peripherals. So there is a good chance prices are down a bit by now.

But how to solder them "at home"?

Marcel

Shawn Wilton wrote:
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2004\04\30@143118 by Roland

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At 09:07 AM 30/04/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>Ok, so far no one has answered my question.  :-)  Any way to get some
>decent wireless the old fashioned way w/o having to buy commercial modules?
>

Search/look at RF sites, not Pic

It's fairly easy to make transmitters and recievers from discrete parts. RF
basics. did this years ago when working for a company making car alarms,
although you can tear you hair out trying to get an oscillator to start if
there's some flaw. At 404MHz ccts start behaving strangely.

In simplest terms, the transmitter is a single transistor with two caps.
Free runs when you apply power. So you key it on/off. (ASK)
A reciever would be a regenerative type(mostly banned I think), from which
you can get about 4uV sinad sensitivity, but rather broadband, a few MHz.
Two transistors and an op-amp.

Get any old reciever module first, or an old car alarm with a working front
end, which you can use to test and tune your built transmitter, looking at
the demodulated audio on a scope, then build the reciever and test with
your working transmitter. After all the effort, if simple comms is all
you're after, rather buy some modules. Most car alarms /garage door opener/
remote gate access /baby alarm/ kiddy remote toy....  will be working in
the range you want to work in, so a sample is easy enough to obtain, and
you'll also realise why there's so much fuzz on the scope in that band.
you'll need to do plenty error checking. See packet radio sites.

The last I looked, Telecontrolli were offering really cheap devices.
Otherwise there are dozens of ctts on the net, and discussion forums for
same. Search along the lines of 'bugging' devices or pennypincher
transmitters.
There are plenty RF sites.
Also see Radiometrix goodies.

Regards
Roland

>
>Kevin Olalde wrote:
>> They work as advertised.  There are two outputs on the receiver (I'm
talking
>> about the older cheaper non-A version).  IIRC the analog output was
stronger,
>> but noiser.
>>
>> Manchester encoding and checksums improved things greatly.  I'd think
some sort
>> of error correcting protocol to be very helpful too, I've not been there
yet
>> though.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Kevin
>>

Regards
Roland Jollivet

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2004\04\30@143119 by M. Adam Davis

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See if you can drag out the schematics or design notes on the X-10
firecracker.  It's a little pic controlled transmitter.  The transmitter
itself uses some 3-5 components and is extremely simple - carrier detect
type stuff.  The receiver is a little more complex.

You may find some difficulty in getting this question answered here - as
inveterate digital junkies many (if not most) here would rather spend
the few extra dollars on a module that works than spend a few extra
hours debugging a self-designed analog radio circuit.  Radio stuff can
be fun, but only after a lot of learning the practical aspects of it.

You might find more help in news://sci.electronics.design (newsgroup).

Alternately, look at one of the many RF circuit guides on the internet:
www.mitedu.freeserve.co.uk/Circuits/rf/rf.html
Build a simple AM transmitter and receiver and you're all set.  Best
part is that you can listen to your transmitters with a standard am radio.

Good luck!

-Adam

Shawn Wilton wrote:

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2004\04\30@143335 by Charles Craft

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If it's an inexpensive peripheral from Logitech then canibalize it for a chunk of PCB with the chip attached. :-)

I couldn't find the roller wheel switches that are in a PC mouse so I bought a bunch of closeout mice and
cut the switches out of them.

{Original Message removed}

2004\04\30@143739 by Shawn Wilton

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Marcel, they're just quad flat package.  You can easily solder those by
hand.  You'll just either need to build some small breakout pcbs, or use
something like deadbug.

I really don't need 50 of those chips though, and 5.12 in Euro is like
$7-$8 USD.  Might as well just buy a laipac at that cost.  But thanks
for the heads up.  Those are very interesting chips to say the least.  :-)

Marcel van Lieshout wrote:

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2004\04\30@144547 by Marcel van Lieshout

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Do these modules have a processor included?

AFAIK the package is of QFN-type without leads, AKA "near die size" or "near chip size".

I must confess my main interest in these chips is because:
a. My boardspace is very VERY limited
b. The chip contains two receivers. I need them both

Shawn Wilton wrote:
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2004\04\30@145156 by Roland

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Hi Marcel

Get the PDF, only 700Kb
Here's a bit off it;

2.4Ghz RF transceiver with
embedded 8051 compatible microcontroller and
9 input, 10 bit ADC

· nRF2401 2.4GHz RF transceiver
· 8051 compatible microcontroller
· 9 input 10 bit ADC 100Kspls/s
· Single 1.9V to 3.6V supply
· Internal voltage regulators
· 2 µA standby with wakeup on
timer or external pin
· Internal VDD monitoring
· Supplied in 36 pin QFN (6x6mm)
package
· Mask programmable version
available
· Very few external components
· Ease of design
· Wireless gamepads
· Wireless headsets
· Wireless keyboards
· Wireless mouse
· Industrial sensors
· PC peripherals
· Phone peripherals
· Tags
· Alarms
· Remote control


At 08:46 PM 30/04/2004 +0200, you wrote:
>Do these modules have a processor included?
>
>AFAIK the package is of QFN-type without leads, AKA "near die size" or
"near chip size".
{Quote hidden}

production and that Logitech
>>> chose this chip for a new line of peripherals. So there is a good
chance prices are down a bit
{Quote hidden}

very nice, I think.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you know how to solder them at home, let me know please ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Marcel
Regards
Roland Jollivet

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2004\04\30@145820 by Marcel van Lieshout

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Roland,

yes, I know the nRF24E1 (almost by heart ;-) ), I wondered if those readymade RF-modules contain a
processor, like the nRF24E1 does.

Marcel

Roland wrote:
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2004\04\30@151332 by Roland

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OK, got the wrong end of the stick. Most, as far as I know, only work the
data stream. The Radiometrix offer packet data, towards a full 232 data link.
If you want a built in processor, I'd use a GSM module. You could run your
entire project from the modems processor

Anyway, the nordic part does not look too hard to solder. Try soldering the
RFM parts. it's a metal can with pads underneath. Had to solder the board
pads, then bed it down with a heat gun.
The RFM devices are fantastic for their current consumption. It always
amazes me how two similar products can differ by a ten-fold difference in
their Iq.
one of the guys is missing something.

Regards
Roland


At 08:57 PM 30/04/2004 +0200, you wrote:
>Roland,
>
>yes, I know the nRF24E1 (almost by heart ;-) ), I wondered if those
readymade RF-modules contain a
>processor, like the nRF24Enents
>> 7 Ease of design
Regards
Roland Jollivet

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2004\04\30@185337 by Shawn Wilton

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If anyone's interested, it looks like the going rate for these chips in
the US is $5.20 per chip up to 999 pieces.

-Shawn


Marcel van Lieshout wrote:

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2004\04\30@203305 by William Chops Westfield

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there are some interesting looking "QwikRadio" (tm) chips at
http://www.micrel.com

BillW

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2004\04\30@221824 by Shawn Wilton

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Yeah, only $2.50 at Mouser.  I was actually pointed towards these by a
Professor of mine.  Looks very promising.



William Chops Westfield wrote:
> there are some interesting looking "QwikRadio" (tm) chips at
> http://www.micrel.com
>
> BillW
>
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2004\04\30@234106 by Russell McMahon

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> Ok, so far no one has answered my question.  :-)  Any way to get some
> decent wireless the old fashioned way w/o having to buy commercial
modules?

You'll need to define the terms "decent", "old fashioned" and "commercial".
eg you could use wireless doorbells as short range low speed data senders.
You could almost certainly make such a system work well. Whether this is
decent, old fashioned or commercial (or acceptable) is up to you.



       RM

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'[EE:] Cheap and simple wireless'
2004\05\01@194152 by Anthony Toft
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> > there are some interesting looking "QwikRadio" (tm) chips at
> > http://www.micrel.com

Any idea on the range on these devices? they look like a good match for
a back burner project of mine...

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2004\05\02@040343 by William Chops Westfield

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On Saturday, May 1, 2004, at 16:42 US/Pacific, Anthony Toft wrote:

>>> http://www.micrel.com
>
> Any idea on the range on these devices? they look like a good match for
> a back burner project of mine...
>
As far as I know, they're short-range things aimed at stuff like garage
door openers, keyless entry, and so on. YMMV, especially if you're an
antenna wizard.

BillW

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2004\05\02@042422 by Robert B.

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On the datasheet for one of the receivers it claimed ranges to over 100
meters.  I ordered a few sets from Mouser to play with, so I'll let you know
when they get here if you're still interested.  I'm actually hoping they'll
be good for (probably crappy) short-range voice data transmission, like for
distances you might normally just speak to someone (< 100 feet).

The ones I ordered are on/off keying, so I'm hoping they'll be good enough
to transmit limited audio through some sort of pulse-width-modulated scheme.
Any ideas?


{Original Message removed}

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