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'[EE:] Beyond Surface Mount'
2004\05\26@120454 by Matthew Brush

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Hello all

Has anyone had any experience using integrated circuits "without" a package?  I notice a lot of consumer devices have what must be a processor buried under glob of something-or-other (ex. Calculator).  I also remember seeing these teeny tiny robots by some organization made with what appeared to be no traditional integrated circuits (link below).  On top of this, I remember seeing some chips available in the "wafer" or "die" package, something about cut and uncut.  So are these all the same thing?  I'm assuming it's exactly what's inside a normal IC except without being molded into plastic or ceramic or whatever.

Has anybody had any experience with this type of "package"?  Is it possible (with patience) to hand solder (or otherwise) these chips at home?   How do you interface to these chips as they don't appear to have pins.  What other types of devices might use this "technology".

I'm interested to hear more about these things.  Thanks for anyones time.  Peace

Small Robots Link
http://www.sandia.gov/media/NewsRel/NR2001/minirobot.htm)

MJ Brush

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2004\05\26@123023 by David Schmidt

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Connections to those type of bare die chips are made using gold or aluminum
wire that is ultrasonically welded to the IC pads and then to a gold plated
pad on the PCB.

Unless you have a >$5K used wire bonder at home, you're not going to be able
to use that type of package.

Sometimes the IC pads on the bare silicon die are gold finished and can be
BGA flipped onto a carrier board (we do this for mems applications), but
this too is beyond the home capabilities.

Dave

Subject: [EE:] Beyond Surface Mount
Hello all

Has anyone had any experience using integrated circuits "without" a package?
I notice a lot of consumer devices have what must be a processor buried
under glob of

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2004\05\26@133250 by llile

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This is generally called chip-on-board, and there are a hundred variations
(flip-chip, die-on-board, and so on)

The bare die is placed on the board, glued I think.  In production a
special automated machine bonds ultra thin gold wires from the chip pads
to the board pads.  There is a manual version of the machine for rework.
This is not possible to do by hand in any way I am aware of, the bondout
process takes special machinery, high magnigfication, and the ability to
handle wires that make human hairs look like hawsers.

The gob of epoxy is placed on at the end of the process to hold it all in
place.

In production, the whole process eliminates a package, which is worth
about US$0.15 in many cases.  The automated machine takes so little time
and labor that it is cheaper to bond out the package that it would be to
solder a package.  You gotta be making a zillion of something to make this
worth it.


-- Lawrence Lile





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       Subject:        [EE:] Beyond Surface Mount


Hello all

Has anyone had any experience using integrated circuits "without" a
package?  I notice a lot of consumer devices have what must be a processor
buried under glob of something-or-other (ex. Calculator).  I also remember
seeing these teeny tiny robots by some organization made with what
appeared to be no traditional integrated circuits (link below).  On top of
this, I remember seeing some chips available in the "wafer" or "die"
package, something about cut and uncut.  So are these all the same thing?
I'm assuming it's exactly what's inside a normal IC except without being
molded into plastic or ceramic or whatever.

Has anybody had any experience with this type of "package"?  Is it
possible (with patience) to hand solder (or otherwise) these chips at
home?   How do you interface to these chips as they don't appear to have
pins.  What other types of devices might use this "technology".

I'm interested to hear more about these things.  Thanks for anyones time.
Peace

Small Robots Link
http://www.sandia.gov/media/NewsRel/NR2001/minirobot.htm)

MJ Brush

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2004\05\26@180138 by Mike Hord

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>This is not possible to do by hand in any way I am aware of, the bondout
>process takes special machinery, high magnigfication, and the ability to
>handle wires that make human hairs look like hawsers.

I would imagine it COULD be done, with very fine tweezers and a good
surgical/dissection microscope.  In the lab I work in, we use implanted
wires 20 microns in diameter (.020 mm) for electrophysiology.  A
typical setup is 14 wires run through 3 separate silica tubes and affixed
to a terminating connector via silver paint.  The tips of the wires are
cut and sanded by hand to ensure good connection and minimal
exposed conductor.  That said, learning to do this is extremely difficult,
and even an experienced researcher takes several days working a
couple of hours a day to produce a result.

Mike H.

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2004\05\26@192723 by David VanHorn
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>
>In production, the whole process eliminates a package, which is worth
>about US$0.15 in many cases.  The automated machine takes so little time
>and labor that it is cheaper to bond out the package that it would be to
>solder a package.  You gotta be making a zillion of something to make this
>worth it.

It's how you make a keychain calculator.

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2004\05\26@194346 by Jinx

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> > You gotta be making a zillion of something to make this
> > worth it.
>
> It's how you make a keychain calculator.

That you don't use

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2004\05\26@205554 by William Chops Westfield

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On Wednesday, May 26, 2004, at 16:43 US/Pacific, Jinx wrote:

>
>>> You gotta be making a zillion of something to make this worth it.

Or really, really need the size reduction.

Although most vendors are putting a lot of their newer devices in more
conventionally usable (solderable) packages that aren't much bigger
than the size of the chip anyway (and smaller than the average blob...)

The coming six-pin PICs are apparently SOT-23 or slightly larger.
Those will be fun :-)

BillW

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2004\05\26@234004 by Charles Craft

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The six-pin PICs have been mentioned before but I think it was in a thread that strayed to one-pin PICs.

Don't see them in the future product list. Figure they'll be announced at the Masters?


{Original Message removed}

2004\05\27@013924 by William Chops Westfield

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On Wednesday, May 26, 2004, at 20:38 US/Pacific, Charles Craft wrote:

> The six-pin PICs have been mentioned before but I think it was in a
> thread that strayed to one-pin PICs.
>
> Don't see them in the future product list. Figure they'll be announced
> at the Masters?

I asked our rep about them, and she confirmed their existence and
"soon-ness."  Since then they've shown up on and off again on the
microchip website.  Search for "pic10f" - at the moment things are
good; there's even a product brief and a programmming spec:

http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/41210B.pdf

It just says SOT23 with no qualifiers for the package.  If that's
really the standard  SOT-23 package normally seen used for transistors,
that's pretty damn impressive!  ICD support, too - does that mean
self-programmable flash?  (there's no eeprom...)

I want some...

BillW

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2004\05\27@020928 by Charles Craft

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Thanks! I had forgot the product family.

Programming spec is out as well:
http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/41228B.pdf

This doc shows the parts in a 8-pin DIP as well.



{Original Message removed}

2004\05\27@104838 by Matthew Brush

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WOW!  Those PICs are amazing!  Are they out yet?  I can't wait to try some
of those.

I guess we are getting closer to having chips implanted in our skin!  hehehe

MJ Brush

{Original Message removed}

2004\05\27@124510 by D. Jay Newman

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> WOW!  Those PICs are amazing!  Are they out yet?  I can't wait to try some
> of those.

Yes. I can already see a few projects that might benefit from these.
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2004\05\27@223248 by M. Adam Davis

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I haven't had any experience with them, but as I understand it, the
process is really straightforward:

You need:
* Clean room ( or work box - I can see a plexiglass unit taking up the
space of a table)
* A mechanical or electromechanical reducer - this takes macro-scale
movements and translates them into micro-scale movements
* A tiny application tip for conductive epoxy
* A UV LED or laser for curing aformentioned epoxy  (or an ultrasonic
wirebonding system)
* A wire feeding/cutting tip
* A magnification/visualization system.  Stereo would be good, but you
could probably get by with a top camera and a side camera.

I suspect a homebrew system would be the easy part.  The hard part is
probably buying the die in small quantities.  They are likely shipped
en-masse directly from the semiconductor factory, and their systems are
likely not set up for delivering small loads - expect that the only
benefit you get from doing this yourself is, perhaps, a smaller board
and fewer working pieces.  You probably won't get the savings due to the
low volume.

You may be able to find some old units for a few grand, or you could
even look at used genetic equipment (the kind used to insert/extract DNA
into/from cells).  Genetics advances so quickly that equipment probably
becomes obsolete more quickly than semiconductor equipment.

It would be neat and not terribly difficult, but the applications where
it's worthwhile are limited.

-Adam

Matthew Brush wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2004\05\29@135618 by Peter L. Peres

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> I guess we are getting closer to having chips implanted in our skin!
> hehehe

If you put your elbow on a SOT23 left on the table you will have that too.

What cpu would one use for something to be worn on a wrist ? it should
have plenty of IO to drive a bare glass lcd and run down to 2.0V (lithium
battery). MSP430 ?

Peter

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2004\05\29@153739 by Bob Ammerman

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> What cpu would one use for something to be worn on a wrist ? it should
> have plenty of IO to drive a bare glass lcd and run down to 2.0V (lithium
> battery). MSP430 ?
>
> Peter

I always had a problem with bare glass LCD, simply from the point of view of
the number of interconnects required. I would expect that modern tech should
allow us to deposit active components right on the glass to do latch the
segment values and do the multiplexing, perhaps with a simple SPI type
interface on just a couple of pins. Then you could use the SOT-23 chip to
drive it and still have 2 I/O's left over.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems

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2004\05\29@160718 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 09:35 PM 5/28/2004 +0300, you wrote:
> > I guess we are getting closer to having chips implanted in our skin!
> > hehehe
>
>If you put your elbow on a SOT23 left on the table you will have that too.
>
>What cpu would one use for something to be worn on a wrist ? it should
>have plenty of IO to drive a bare glass lcd and run down to 2.0V (lithium
>battery). MSP430 ?

MSP430 if you need a lot of processing power and LCD controller, but for
simple watch type applications there are 4-bit mask-programmed micros that will
operate from 1.5V at very low power (they use an on-chip charge pump),
and have LCD drivers and other useful peripherals on-chip.

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
@spam@speffKILLspamspaminterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
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2004\05\30@105238 by Peter L. Peres

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I wrote:
> What cpu would one use for something to be worn on a wrist ? it should
> have plenty of IO to drive a bare glass lcd and run down to 2.0V
> (lithium battery). MSP430 ?
>
> Peter

Bob Ammerman wrote:
> I always had a problem with bare glass LCD, simply from the point of
> view of the number of interconnects required. I would expect that modern
> tech should allow us to deposit active components right on the glass to
> do latch the segment values and do the multiplexing, perhaps with a
> simple SPI type interface on just a couple of pins. Then you could use
> the SOT-23 chip to drive it and still have 2 I/O's left over.

So get a cell phone display and talk with that. But I want direct glass
drive. I do take the time and bond 0.02 mm bare wires to the contact pads
with conductive epoxy under a microscope for prototypes ;-) I have done
this several times. Helpful hint: coat the sharp edges of the glass with a
rubber paint before handling it. This will prevent you from making an
invisible kink while handling it, that will slowly turn the panel black
... (guess how I know this ?)

Peter

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2004\05\30@105241 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
>> > I guess we are getting closer to having chips implanted in our skin!
>> > hehehe
>>
>>If you put your elbow on a SOT23 left on the table you will have that
>too.
>>
>>What cpu would one use for something to be worn on a wrist ? it should
>>have plenty of IO to drive a bare glass lcd and run down to 2.0V
>>(lithium battery). MSP430 ?
>
>MSP430 if you need a lot of processing power and LCD controller, but for
>simple watch type applications there are 4-bit mask-programmed micros
>that will operate from 1.5V at very low power (they use an on-chip charge
>pump), and have LCD drivers and other useful peripherals on-chip.

I understand that the 4-bitters require qty >10k or so ? I do not do high
volume products. I would need say 5-10 per year, but the quality must be
very good. What is a 'lot' of processing power ? Does anyone use the
Philips new 32 bit arm-on-a-chip micros ?

Peter

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2004\05\30@141224 by Bob Ammerman

picon face
Peter, I don't think you understood my point. I just feel that the multiple
interconnects between microcontroller and glass shouldn't make economic
sense anymore. In many applications the large majority of the pins in the uC
are driving the LCD glass. Whether these are connected to the glass via an
elastomeric strip, or in any other way, if seems to that it is taking up
much more real estate than it should. Hence the thought of putting, for
example, shift registers, right on the display even for displays with
relatively few segments/backplane.

In other words, wouldn't such a scheme result in cheaper implementations?

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems



{Original Message removed}

2004\05\30@142302 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 02:10 PM 5/30/2004 -0400, you wrote:
>Peter, I don't think you understood my point. I just feel that the multiple
>interconnects between microcontroller and glass shouldn't make economic
>sense anymore. In many applications the large majority of the pins in the uC
>are driving the LCD glass. Whether these are connected to the glass via an
>elastomeric strip, or in any other way, if seems to that it is taking up
>much more real estate than it should. Hence the thought of putting, for
>example, shift registers, right on the display even for displays with
>relatively few segments/backplane.
>
>In other words, wouldn't such a scheme result in cheaper implementations?

For really cheap products, the usual construction is COB on with elastomer
connectors to the glass. COG is technically feasible, but more $$.

For an example of a really cheap product, treat yourself to a happy meal
at McDonalds and dissect the little free LCD "video" game they throw in there.

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
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2004\05\30@150524 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 06:03 PM 5/30/2004 +0300, you wrote:
> >> > I guess we are getting closer to having chips implanted in our skin!
> >> > hehehe
> >>
> >>If you put your elbow on a SOT23 left on the table you will have that
> >too.
> >>
> >>What cpu would one use for something to be worn on a wrist ? it should
> >>have plenty of IO to drive a bare glass lcd and run down to 2.0V
> >>(lithium battery). MSP430 ?
> >
> >MSP430 if you need a lot of processing power and LCD controller, but for
> >simple watch type applications there are 4-bit mask-programmed micros
> >that will operate from 1.5V at very low power (they use an on-chip charge
> >pump), and have LCD drivers and other useful peripherals on-chip.
>
>I understand that the 4-bitters require qty >10k or so ?

More like 50K per code set, because they are mask programmed. There are
(or were) a few nice OTP 4-bitters from Japanese companies but they
were priced higher than many 8-bit micros (though they did tend to have
nice VFD drivers and that sort of stuff on-chip.

>I do not do high
>volume products. I would need say 5-10 per year, but the quality must be
>very good.

5-10 of something worn on the wrist? You making $5K-20K wristwatches?
Sure, the MSP430 is a possibility. It's one of the few with FLASH and good
LCD controller on-chip.

>What is a 'lot' of processing power ? Does anyone use the
>Philips new 32 bit arm-on-a-chip micros ?

The LPC210x series is very nice. They say it will be possible to program
all 128K bytes of FLASH in 2 seconds. They start at around $5 US in moderate
quantity.

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
speffEraseMEspam.....interlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
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2004\05\31@033840 by Jinx

face picon face
> > > What cpu would one use for something to be worn on a wrist ?

> >Philips new 32 bit arm-on-a-chip micros ?

So that would be an-arm-on-a-chip-on-an-arm ?

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'[EE:] Beyond Surface Mount'
2004\06\01@140032 by Peter L. Peres
picon face
>5-10 of something worn on the wrist? You making $5K-20K wristwatches?

Why are you jumping to conclusions ? ;-) I do not make wristwatches
although that would be an idea.

>Sure, the MSP430 is a possibility. It's one of the few with FLASH and
>good LCD controller on-chip.

And a $100 usable C compiler afair. What other options ? PIC18 ? AVR ?
MCS51 core ? Anything that runs down to 2.0V on a few uA (at 32kHz) and
has a lot of io in ssop is a valid candidate for me.

thanks,
Peter

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2004\06\01@145516 by Daniel Serpell

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El Tue, Jun 01, 2004 at 02:28:05AM +0300, Peter L. Peres escribio:
>
> >Sure, the MSP430 is a possibility. It's one of the few with FLASH and
> >good LCD controller on-chip.
>
> And a $100 usable C compiler afair. What other options ? PIC18 ? AVR ?
> MCS51 core ? Anything that runs down to 2.0V on a few uA (at 32kHz) and
> has a lot of io in ssop is a valid candidate for me.

Perhaps in:
www.fma.fujitsu.com/micro/microFMC8bit.asp?grOut=8+Bit+Series
or
http://www.fma.fujitsu.com/micro/microFMC16bit.asp?grOut=16+Bit+Series

   Daniel.

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2004\06\01@161824 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
> Peter, I don't think you understood my point. I just feel that the
> multiple interconnects between microcontroller and glass shouldn't make
> economic sense anymore. In many applications the large majority of the
> pins in the uC are driving the LCD glass. Whether these are connected to
> the glass via an elastomeric strip, or in any other way, if seems to
> that it is taking up much more real estate than it should. Hence the
> thought of putting, for example, shift registers, right on the display
> even for displays with relatively few segments/backplane.

Higher resolution LCDs (dot matrix etc) have drivers on the glass as
standard. That's why I said cell phone display. It's a mass produced item
that should be find-able and is about the right size. But for all low
segment count displays, bare glass driven directly by specialised driver
or (many) misused microprocessor io pins is what is used.

The price issue is moot. For low volume, low cost, you do not set the
price, you use whatever comes along. This means that using a mass produced
part is better than dreaming about what should or could be, and maybe
better than buying ones at high prices from normal retail distributors.

$0.02
Peter

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2004\06\01@212131 by Bob Ammerman

picon face
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter L. Peres" <RemoveMEplpEraseMEspamEraseMEACTCOM.CO.IL>
To: <RemoveMEPICLISTspam_OUTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Monday, May 31, 2004 7:16 PM
Subject: Re: [EE:] Beyond Surface Mount


{Quote hidden}

I am not looking for a part for any current project. What I am saying is
that I am surprised that high volume, low cost applications haven't driven a
trend toward driver-on-glass technology for small segment count part (eg:
7-segment vs. dot-matrix characters). I would expect that the extra costs
for the active elements on the glass would be more than offset by the
reduced interconnect requirement. I certainly wouldn't expect to be able to
buy such a device at a low cost, but I would expect McDonalds should be able
to do so to stuff it in a happy meal.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems

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2004\06\02@023348 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
On Tuesday, Jun 1, 2004, at 18:19 US/Pacific, Bob Ammerman wrote:

>>> Peter, I don't think you understood my point. I just feel that the
>>> multiple interconnects between microcontroller and glass shouldn't
>>> make economic sense anymore. In many applications the large majority
>>> of the pins in the uC are driving the LCD glass.

Hmm.  What would be nice if if someone (say, microchip) would put one
of their flash-based LCD-driving microcontrollers on glass FOR us,
breaking out the remaining 13 IOs (or whatever) to external connections
for random purposes and programming of the flash...   That would be...
cool; and bring smaller displays within reach of lower volume
designers...

BillW

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2004\06\02@062433 by Matthew Brush

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face
I don't think the big semi. companies much care for low-volume designers.
IMHO

Hehe, ironically that was sorta why I started this thread (subject?).

Peace

MJ Brush

{Original Message removed}

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