Post by thread:[EE:] Board Design Cost

Hi All, Within a month (or two or three) I'll be done with the design of a device I'd like to have turned into a finished board. I've got a buddy in the board-making business & I'll have him make the board for me - but he doesn't design them - just works from gerbers. My board will be about 1.25" by 3.5", 2-layer. It will consist of an MCU, several other ICs (all SMT), a few pin headers and a handful of smaller components. The board itself is bigger than it needs to be due to some mechanical requirements - the circuit itself is fairly simple. My questions: 1. If I hand someone a schematic, how much might I expect to pay to have the board designed? Cheap is good - I wish I could find a talented hobbyist or student to do this for me... 2. I don't have any board design experience - how does one spec component packages/sizes to maximize cost-effectiveness, availability & flexibility? ...or does the guy designing the board handle that? -matt redmond -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email spam_OUTlistservTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

Matt Redmond wrote: > 1. If I hand someone a schematic, how much might I expect to pay to > have the board designed? Cheap is good - I wish I could find a > talented hobbyist or student to do this for me... You are right, the best thing would be to find a hobbyist, friend, or student that has a CAD system and can do this on the side. If you think you will do this again, you might consider getting the free or low cost version of Eagle and learn to do this yourself. I can give you some idea what it would take to get this done commercially: This is a nightmare job for a commercial outfit. No matter how "cheap" someone will do this, you will probably think it's too expensive. That means you will probably waste more of their time than usual in wanting every penny justified, and they will be wondering if you'll ever pay them. The small size of the job makes the extra hand holding proportionately worse. The small job size also means the extra overhead in getting into and out of the job is more significant than with a small job. Then there is the issue of what happens if it doesn't work. You aren't paying to have the schematic looked over, but will naturally assume the board is at fault when things don't work. This means extra wasted time to the commercial house to argue about whos fault it is and spend time proving the board matches the schematic. Let's add some numbers. Assume your schematic is drawn neatly and understandably. However, you don't have package information. Figure a couple of hours to look over the schematic, verify it makes sense (to avoid problems later), determine if any unusual packages are required, get a feel for whether it will fit within your board area, etc. Figure at least half a day chasing down mechanical information for unusual connectors and the like, adding their definition to the CAD system, and entering the schematic. At least another 1/2 day for routing, checking the gerber files, sending them to the board house, receiving the boards. Add the overhead of all the hand holding required, getting into and out of this job, and it will take at least two days assuming not a large number of part not previouly in the CAD system. Even at $95/hour engineering rate, plus $120 for 3-5 prototype boards, that would be over $1,600. And that's an estimate, not a guaranteed fixed price. This is actually quite cheap from a commercial job, but probably way past your definition of "cheap". Unless you make it clear that you are prepared to pay up to $2000, no commercial place that knows what they are doing is going to touch this job. Even then, the fact that you are dumping an existing schematic on them will make most commericial places walk away. There are too many potential problems that are just not worth the trouble and aggrevation for two days of billable time. ***************************************************************** Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts (978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email .....listservKILLspam@spam@mitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

> Matt Redmond wrote: > > 1. If I hand someone a schematic, how much might I expect to pay to > > have the board designed? Cheap is good - I wish I could find a > > talented hobbyist or student to do this for me... Hi Matt, Please contact me directly and send as much info as possible regarding your design. I am a hobbyist with a lot of experience in the electronics industry. ************************************************* Roy Hopkins rdhopkinsKILLspamihug.co.nz ************************************************* --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.552 / Virus Database: 344 - Release Date: 15/12/2003 -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email .....listservKILLspam.....mitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

Matt, There have been some great notes on this and I also recommend you learn to lay it out yourself. Another option besides EAGLE is EXPRESSPCB.com. The software is free to download and you can get three 2.5"x3.8" non-solder mask, non-silkscreen boards for $59 including shipping. I use it often for quick prototypes. They now offer 4 layers also but I'm not sure if this is included in the $59 price or not. Matt Redmond <mdredmondspam_OUTCHARTER.NET> wrote: Hi All, Within a month (or two or three) I'll be done with the design of a device I'd like to have turned into a finished board. I've got a buddy in the board-making business & I'll have him make the board for me - but he doesn't design them - just works from gerbers. My board will be about 1.25" by 3.5", 2-layer. It will consist of an MCU, several other ICs (all SMT), a few pin headers and a handful of smaller components. The board itself is bigger than it needs to be due to some mechanical requirements - the circuit itself is fairly simple. My questions: 1. If I hand someone a schematic, how much might I expect to pay to have the board designed? Cheap is good - I wish I could find a talented hobbyist or student to do this for me... 2. I don't have any board design experience - how does one spec component packages/sizes to maximize cost-effectiveness, availability & flexibility? ...or does the guy designing the board handle that? -matt redmond -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email @spam@listservKILLspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body Chuck Hellebuyck Electronic Products KILLspamchuckKILLspamelproducts.com **** Home of the BasicBoard Development Platform********* Great for learning, teaching and developing electronic, programmable robotics and other embedded applications. Starter packages from $149.95. http://www.elproducts.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email RemoveMElistservTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 12:55:19 -0800, Chuck Hellebuyck wrote: >Matt, >There have been some great notes on this and I also recommend you learn to lay it out yourself. Another option besides EAGLE is EXPRESSPCB.com. >The software is free to download and you can get three 2.5"x3.8" non-solder mask, non-silkscreen boards for $59 including shipping. >I use it often for quick prototypes. >They now offer 4 layers also but I'm not sure if this is included in the $59 price or not. > ExpressPCB's software is proprietary and doesn't produce Gerber files. Matt already has someone to produce the boards; he just needs to get from schematic to Gerber files. Regards, Bob -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email spamBeGonelistservspamBeGonemitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

To me the benefit of ExpressPCB is not so much the low cost, fast turn around, or that the layout software is free. It's that the layout software is so easy to use. I downloaded Eagle once and took a look at it. I found it overly complicated. You can learn to use ExpressPCB in half an hour. The link between the schematic program and the PCB program now make it very easy to avoid mistakes. At 12:55 PM -0800 12-16-03, Chuck Hellebuyck wrote: >Matt, >There have been some great notes on this and I also recommend you >learn to lay it out yourself. Another option besides EAGLE is >EXPRESSPCB.com. >The software is free to download and you can get three 2.5"x3.8" >non-solder mask, non-silkscreen boards for $59 including shipping. >I use it often for quick prototypes. >They now offer 4 layers also but I'm not sure if this is included in >the $59 price or not. -- Bryan Mumford Mumford Micro Systems TakeThisOuTbryanEraseMEspam_OUTbmumford.com -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email RemoveMElistservTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

OK, I'll turn it around.....does EXPRESSPCB.com support Eagle? Their price per board is good, but I'm under the impression that they will not take my Eagle files... Eagle has more to understand as a novice, but it seems more like a real "CAD" program. I quickly figured out most of the library and drawing stuff due to experience with other CADs. Perhaps that's not a good assumption to make about everyone, but I was familiar with the concepts. Now that I've learned it (on my first project, similar to this) I'd really like to keep with it. I'm looking forward to getting 4+ layers and unlimited size. Who is the least expensive for rapid prototype under Eagle? I am currently using http://www.pcbexpress.com, along with newest Eagle. My usual "buys" are 4 x 2sided boards at Eagle limit of 3.2 x 4.0. Price for this size....$115.00 + shipping DD On Tue, 2003-12-16 at 13:42, Bryan Mumford wrote: {Quote hidden}> To me the benefit of ExpressPCB is not so much the low cost, fast > turn around, or that the layout software is free. It's that the > layout software is so easy to use. I downloaded Eagle once and took a > look at it. I found it overly complicated. You can learn to use > ExpressPCB in half an hour. The link between the schematic program > and the PCB program now make it very easy to avoid mistakes. > > > At 12:55 PM -0800 12-16-03, Chuck Hellebuyck wrote: > >Matt, > >There have been some great notes on this and I also recommend you > >learn to lay it out yourself. Another option besides EAGLE is > >EXPRESSPCB.com. > >The software is free to download and you can get three 2.5"x3.8" > >non-solder mask, non-silkscreen boards for $59 including shipping. > >I use it often for quick prototypes. > >They now offer 4 layers also but I'm not sure if this is included in > >the $59 price or not. > > -- > > Bryan Mumford > Mumford Micro Systems > bryanEraseME.....bmumford.com > > -- > http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! > email EraseMElistservmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body -- Dan Devine "Serving the public since....well, never" RemoveMEdannyboy259EraseMEEraseMEcomcast.net -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email RemoveMElistservspam_OUTKILLspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

> On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 12:55:19 -0800, Chuck Hellebuyck wrote: > > >Matt, > >There have been some great notes on this and I also recommend > you learn to lay it out yourself. Another option besides EAGLE is > EXPRESSPCB.com. > >The software is free to download and you can get three 2.5"x3.8" > non-solder mask, non-silkscreen boards for $59 including shipping. > >I use it often for quick prototypes. > >They now offer 4 layers also but I'm not sure if this is > included in the $59 price or not. > > > > ExpressPCB's software is proprietary and doesn't produce Gerber files. Very true, that's the main reason I won't even consider them (that and no solder mask, making them useless for SMT IMHO). What's the point in spending all that time laying out your board and then having to do it all over again when you no longer want to go with them. TTYL ---------------------------------- Herbert's PIC Stuff: http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/ -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email EraseMElistservspamspamBeGonemitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

Matt: I do board design for a lot of different companies and maby I can help. Please contact me off list for further info. I have most of the PIC's and Motorola controllers is my librarys along with a others too numerous to mention. CR > > > My board will be about 1.25" by 3.5", 2-layer. It will consist of an MCU, > several other ICs (all SMT), a few pin headers and a handful of smaller > components. The board itself is bigger than it needs to be due to some > mechanical requirements - the circuit itself is fairly simple. > -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email spamBeGonelistservSTOPspamEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

David Schmidt wrote: > The http://www.4pcb.com has a great deal on full service, 2sided PCB's for > $33.00 each. Yes, it's a good deal, but not really $33 each. There's a $10 handling fee they don't tell you about very prominently, and then of course there is shipping. I think of it as 3 boards for $120, which is still a good deal for 80 square inch boards. If you only need 40 square inches, check out http://www.eprotos.com. ***************************************************************** Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts (978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList KILLspampiclist-unsubscribe-requestspamBeGonemitvma.mit.edu

ExpressPCB.com does offer Gerber files. You have to ask them and there is a $60 fee. Then you have industry standard Gerbers you can take anywhere. I like it because I can prove out my design cheap and then have the boards made wherever I want. Bob Barr <EraseMEbbarrEraseMECALIFORNIA.COM> wrote: On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 12:55:19 -0800, Chuck Hellebuyck wrote: >Matt, >There have been some great notes on this and I also recommend you learn to lay it out yourself. Another option besides EAGLE is EXPRESSPCB.com. >The software is free to download and you can get three 2.5"x3.8" non-solder mask, non-silkscreen boards for $59 including shipping. >I use it often for quick prototypes. >They now offer 4 layers also but I'm not sure if this is included in the $59 price or not. > ExpressPCB's software is proprietary and doesn't produce Gerber files. Matt already has someone to produce the boards; he just needs to get from schematic to Gerber files. Regards, Bob -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email @spam@listserv@spam@spam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body Chuck Hellebuyck Electronic Products spamBeGonechuckKILLspamelproducts.com **** Home of the BasicBoard Development Platform********* Great for learning, teaching and developing electronic, programmable robotics and other embedded applications. Starter packages from $149.95. http://www.elproducts.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList .....piclist-unsubscribe-requestspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu

I originally thought the same thing but they expanded it a long time ago. ExpressPCB also offers lower cost solder mask and silkscreen prototypes and production service. Their solder mask/silkscreen prototypes cost $229 for 5 boards I believe with the following requirements. From there website: These are the same professional quality, double-sided boards as our Production Service, including the silkscreen and solder masks. To qualify as a ProtoPro board, it must fit in a 21 sq-in rectangle and no dimension can exceed 12". By standardizing on this size, we can offer these boards at a very low fixed price. Herbert Graf <TakeThisOuTmailinglist.....TakeThisOuTFARCITE.NET> wrote: Very true, that's the main reason I won't even consider them (that and no solder mask, making them useless for SMT IMHO). What's the point in spending all that time laying out your board and then having to do it all over again when you no longer want to go with them. TTYL ---------------------------------- Herbert's PIC Stuff: http://repatch.dyndns.org:8383/pic_stuff/ -- http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us! email TakeThisOuTlistservKILLspamspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body Chuck Hellebuyck Electronic Products .....chuckRemoveMEelproducts.com **** Home of the BasicBoard Development Platform********* Great for learning, teaching and developing electronic, programmable robotics and other embedded applications. Starter packages from $149.95. http://www.elproducts.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList RemoveMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestspamBeGonemitvma.mit.edu

Wow! For a single 100x100mm board, double sided, w/ solder mask and screen printing, 60 Euro = ~$70 U.S at eurocircuits.com. Not too shabby! I'm not sure what shipping to the U.S. would be, but that still seems like a pretty good deal. - Robert >-----Original Message----- >From: pic microcontroller discussion list [spamBeGonePICLIST@spam@spam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu] >On Behalf Of Wouter van Ooijen >> Who is the least expensive for rapid prototype under Eagle? > >two to try: http://www.olimex.com, http://www.eurocircuits.com > >Wouter van Ooijen -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList TakeThisOuTpiclist-unsubscribe-requestspammitvma.mit.edu

> For one-offs and moderate numbers of (very) small boards I have found > Olimex cheaper (they panelize for free). But beware of their design > limitations. For a moderate number of boards (they do only up to 50) I > have found eurocircuits cheaper. But they ar (much) slower, even though > they are in the next country (Belgium is directly 'below' the > Netherlands). I've only had one board made, but they did a great job in a reasonable amount of time. And the price was great! -- D. Jay Newman ! jayEraseMEsprucegrove.com ! Xander: Giles, don't make cave-slayer unhappy. http://enerd.ws/robots/ ! -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList RemoveMEpiclist-unsubscribe-requestEraseMEspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu

>-----Original Message----- >From: Robert Ussery [@spam@uavscienceRemoveMEEraseMEFRII.COM] >Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 9:49 AM >To: EraseMEPICLIST@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU >Subject: Re: [EE:] Board Design Cost > > >Wow! >For a single 100x100mm board, double sided, w/ solder mask and screen >printing, 60 Euro = ~$70 U.S at eurocircuits.com. Not too shabby! I'm not >sure what shipping to the U.S. would be, but that still seems like a pretty >good deal. > > >- Robert As was mentioned, Olimex is also a great choice. I just received four boards from them last week. The price and quality were both excellent. They are also willing to panelize smaller Eagle files for you, and will accept native Eagle format if you wish. The only downside I had was that the cheapest method was Air Mail, estimated at 10-18 days, ended up taking a full 30 days from the day Olimex shipped them out. Next time, I'll pay a bit more for faster delivery. I'm not an expert, this was only the third time I've had boards made. I am impressed with the low prices and high quality. Thumbs up from this customer. My affiliation with Olimex is only that of a satisfied customer. This is an unsolicited and uncompensated testimonial. Void where prohibited, your mileage may vary. 8^) Lyle Hazelwood -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList @spam@piclist-unsubscribe-requestspam_OUT.....mitvma.mit.edu

> For a single 100x**160**mm board, double sided, w/solder mask > and screen > printing, $26US at http://www.olimex.com. Mind boggling! Airmail > shipping to the US > is $8, so it seems like an incredible deal. And that includes panelization: just send them a bunch of eagle .brd files and tell them how tow arrange those boards in the 100x160 panel! But a few bewares: they charge extra for 'extra' holes, use of non-standard drills, silkscreen-fixup for < 10 lines. And they want a signed order form faxed with your credit card details. Faxing to Bulgaria is horrible, so now I just scan the document and email the .gif. Wouter van Ooijen -- ------------------------------------------- Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl consultancy, development, PICmicro products -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList piclist-unsubscribe-requestspamBeGonemitvma.mit.edu

Olin Lathrop wrote: >David Schmidt wrote: > > >>The http://www.4pcb.com has a great deal on full service, 2sided PCB's for >>$33.00 each. >> >> > >Yes, it's a good deal, but not really $33 each. There's a $10 handling fee >they don't tell you about very prominently, and then of course there is >shipping. I think of it as 3 boards for $120, which is still a good deal >for 80 square inch boards. If you only need 40 square inches, check out >http://www.eprotos.com. > > I've only used the $33 each service twice (both within the last two months), but neither time was there a $10 handling fee--$99 for teh boards plus about $14 shipping. -Johnathan -- http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList .....piclist-unsubscribe-requestRemoveMEmitvma.mit.edu