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'[AVR:] ATtiny11s group buy?'
2004\06\25@004151 by Martin Klingensmith

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I'd be in for 50 but I don't know where you can get them for $.25
--
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Bhargava wrote:

>How about a group buy of Tiny11 at $0.25.?
>
>Regards.
>
>
>

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2004\06\25@012014 by Bhargava

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Let me find out with my rep... anyways if I can't buy those for 25
cents I'll go with 37 cents. It will be $6 difference if we buy 50 of
them.

Lets see how many people will join...

Regards.



On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 00:42:06 -0400, Martin Klingensmith
<spam_OUTmartinTakeThisOuTspamnnytech.net> wrote:
>
> I'd be in for 50 but I don't know where you can get them for $.25
> --
> Martin Klingensmith
>

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2004\06\25@131056 by Bhargava

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I called my rep and figured out that the pricing is right (0.25) and
the minimum order quantity on PDIP packages is 650, packaged in
50/tube. Lead time is 6 weeks.

The minimum on SO package is 665 and lear time is longer than PDIP.

Lets see if this attracts people to do a group buy.

Regards

On Thu, 24 Jun 2004 22:19:57 -0700, Bhargava <.....abhargavaKILLspamspam@spam@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Let me find out with my rep... anyways if I can't buy those for 25
> cents I'll go with 37 cents. It will be $6 difference if we buy 50 of
> them.
>
> Lets see how many people will join...
>
> Regards.
>

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2004\06\25@131928 by Alex Harford

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I'd be interested in 50 if they can be shipped to Canada without any
big hassles.

Alex

On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 10:11:42 -0700, Bhargava <abhargavaspamKILLspamgmail.com> wrote:
>
> I called my rep and figured out that the pricing is right (0.25) and
> the minimum order quantity on PDIP packages is 650, packaged in
> 50/tube. Lead time is 6 weeks.
>
> The minimum on SO package is 665 and lear time is longer than PDIP.
>
> Lets see if this attracts people to do a group buy.

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2004\06\25@133002 by Martin Klingensmith

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I have never actually used an Atmel device. I figure an 8 pin device
would be a good place to start, am I right? Do they have a serial
bootloader builtin or what would I do to program them?
Thanks.

I believe to actually start a group buy you should come up with a new
subject line like: "[AVR] ATtiny11 group buy"

You have a numbered list wherein people reply and add their name, email,
and quantity - eg:
1. Martin Klingensmith .....martinKILLspamspam.....nnytech.net 50
..
When you reach 650 send emails and make sure people are still interested.
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Bhargava wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2004\06\25@134627 by Alex Harford

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attiny11's are no RAM no EPROM devices, and require high voltage
serial programming.  IMO not the best one to start with.

You need a programmer like this:
http://www.equinox-tech.com/products/details.asp?ID=5

Or maybe:
users.cableaz.com/~cappels/dproj/910page/avr910.htm
http://www.serasidis.gr/circuits/avr_isp/avr_isp.htm

On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 13:31:03 -0400, Martin Klingensmith
<martinspamspam_OUTnnytech.net> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2004\06\25@145028 by Bhargava

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If you want to experiment with AVRs this is not the best one but it
will be the cheapest one. You can build this small programmer and off
you go...

You can start with an attiny on a breadboard :-)

The simplest programmer that I found is:
http://home.pages.at/arnerossius/schalt/mikro/attiny11.gif

Regards.

On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 10:46:58 -0700, Alex Harford <RemoveMEharfordTakeThisOuTspamgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2004\06\25@163604 by David VanHorn

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At 01:31 PM 6/25/2004 -0400, Martin Klingensmith wrote:

>I have never actually used an Atmel device. I figure an 8 pin device
>would be a good place to start, am I right? Do they have a serial
>bootloader builtin or what would I do to program them?
>Thanks.

The 2343 is a great starter chip, 8 pin.
Use the BA1FB (google, I posted the link earler) and you're there.
I just recently did a Pseudonoise generator in one, and a repeater controller with courtesy tone, kerchunk filter, hang time, and CWID.

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2004\06\25@181255 by Bhargava

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AT90S2323-10PC priced at $2.97 at Arrow :-(

On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 15:36:37 -0500, David VanHorn <dvanhornEraseMEspam.....cedar.net> wrote:

> The 2343 is a great starter chip, 8 pin.
> Use the BA1FB (google, I posted the link earler) and you're there.
> I just recently did a Pseudonoise generator in one, and a repeater controller with courtesy tone, kerchunk filter, hang time, and CWID.

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2004\06\25@182848 by David VanHorn

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At 03:13 PM 6/25/2004 -0700, Bhargava wrote:

>AT90S2323-10PC priced at $2.97 at Arrow :-(

Digikey lists the 2343 at 3.40 for the variants they have in stock.
$2.40 for another dip version.

The tiny-26 is a better deal at the moment, about $2.50 and a lot more bang for the buck, if you don't mind the extra pins.

Mega-8, bunch of variants around $3.50

All in onesies pricing.

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2004\06\25@202437 by William Chops Westfield

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>>
>> Lets see if this attracts people to do a group buy.
>>
I don't know if the price difference in cost between a group buy
($0.25) and and (ie) digikey ($0.54/41/38) is worth the hassle, unless
some selfless person is willing to mail them out at like $3 for 10,
postpaid
(first class mail, one stamp?) (and do NOT underestimate the time and
effort needed to mail out 60+ such efforts.

I would buy 100 at the $0.25 price, just because for me, spending less
than $25 just isn't worth it.  I'd buy 100 for $37.50 from digikey,
too, and be happy, if I hadn't heard this rumor that they should be
cheaper.
I think we should at least wait a week or two to see if digikey/etc
fall in with the rumor ("official company rep statement"?) or not...

I do NOT think that an 8pin processor is a "good starting point",
especially for the AVR series.  An AT90S2313 is at the bottom of their
'full featured' line (uart, ram, etc) instead of the bottom of the
bottom, and would be a better choice, IMO.

BillW

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2004\06\25@205628 by Bhargava

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I think it would be easier to split at 50 pieces boundary as they are
packaged in a tube of 50.

At this price of 25 cents you can use it in place of 555 timer :-)

I have been given this price from All American and the rep asserted this price.

Regards

On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 17:24:42 -0700, William Chops Westfield
<EraseMEwestfwspammac.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2004\06\25@212947 by David VanHorn

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>
>I do NOT think that an 8pin processor is a "good starting point",
>especially for the AVR series.  An AT90S2313 is at the bottom of their
>'full featured' line (uart, ram, etc) instead of the bottom of the
>bottom, and would be a better choice, IMO.

I like the 2343 for teaching the AVR.
It's simple, and has a little of everything.

No, no uart, ADC, or anything fancy. Just the basics.
That's sort of the point.

If I was thinking in that direction, a tiny-26 or mega-8 might be better, but then you are jumping in near the middle of the pool, with lots of peripherals, and some find this confusing.  Also, having less pins puts a premium on creativity.

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2004\06\25@215515 by Byron A Jeff

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On Fri, Jun 25, 2004 at 08:29:26PM -0500, David VanHorn wrote:
> >
> >I do NOT think that an 8pin processor is a "good starting point",
> >especially for the AVR series.  An AT90S2313 is at the bottom of their
> >'full featured' line (uart, ram, etc) instead of the bottom of the
> >bottom, and would be a better choice, IMO.
>
> I like the 2343 for teaching the AVR.
> It's simple, and has a little of everything.
>
> No, no uart, ADC, or anything fancy. Just the basics.
> That's sort of the point.
>

> If I was thinking in that direction, a tiny-26 or mega-8 might be better,
> but then you are jumping in near the middle of the pool, with lots of
> peripherals, and some find this confusing.  Also, having less pins puts a
> premium on creativity.

I'm of a few different minds on this subject. First is that I think that
onboard peripherals are a complexity tradeoff where it's a bit complex in the
beginning, but a vast simplification as one gets to late beginner stage.
The set and forget nature of UART, PWM, A/D, timers and the like are a
really good thing.

Second is that creativity isn't good for beginners. They need to see things
layed out simply at first. More pins are a good thing early on until one
learns multiplexing tricks.

Third is that price isn't that sensitive a subject for hobbyist. So while
a nickel processor is great, it may be better to have the full featured
$6 processor to actually get the job done. And most jobs will be a one off.

Also simple tools and simple layouts are critical. AVR seems to be OK with
compilers, assemblers, and programmers. Also they seem to have DIP parts
and everything runs at 5V. So everything is cool on this front.

Next is that a hobbyist doesn't need to have each and every processor in
the family. One good overall pick is better than trying to find the perfect
fit.

Finally I'm a true bootloader fan. So self programmable is a must if possible.

So I ask the which one question in a different form. Which AVR parts match up
the most closely with the following PIC parts:

12F675 (8 pin, flash, A/D)
16F88  (self programmable, most everything in a 18 pin package)
16F877A (top of the line 40 pin 16F part. Wish there was a nanowatt version)
18F4320 (top of the line 40 pin 18F part. Does have nanowatt)

Looking for good matches.

Thanks

BAJ

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2004\06\25@222929 by David VanHorn

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>
>Next is that a hobbyist doesn't need to have each and every processor in
>the family. One good overall pick is better than trying to find the perfect
>fit.

This is where I am at personally, I like one big butt-kicking chip, and then I'll port it down once I know that I have all the "and it needs X" handled.

>Finally I'm a true bootloader fan. So self programmable is a must if possible.

That limits you to the AVRs with SPM instruction.
The 6 pin serial in-circuit programming interface, or the 8-wire Jtag interface make it very easy to develop, but they aren't true bootloaders. Of course a bootloader eats codespace too, so you have to consider that.  In my 8 pin AVR barcode reader, I think I have seven instructions free, where a bootloader could live. :)  Code contest anyone?  You'd have to do a bit-banged uart as well...

>So I ask the which one question in a different form. Which AVR parts match up
>the most closely with the following PIC parts:
>
>12F675 (8 pin, flash, A/D)
Tiny-15 or Tiny-13 which apparently has self-programming. (I've not used the T13)

Tiny-13
http://www.atmel.com/dyn/products/product_card.asp?part_id=3175

Tiny-15
http://www.atmel.com/dyn/products/product_card.asp?part_id=2033

>16F88  (self programmable, most everything in a 18 pin package)
Tiny-26 in a 20 pin, or Mega-8 in 23 pin package available, with 8 channels of 10 bit A/D.Also


>16F877A (top of the line 40 pin 16F part. Wish there was a nanowatt version)
M126/256 I think as well, no dip available.

>18F4320 (top of the line 40 pin 18F part. Does have nanowatt)
Mega-128 or Mega-256
Has low power Sleep, Snooze, Catnap (not really, atmel has a bunch of sleep modes, but their documentation is confusing and could be MUCH better)
Also interesting FDIV register, that lets me divide the clock by N, where N is 1-127
Also low power Vittoz Xtal oscillator, like digital watch guys use, but no guidance on how to select the parts. Again, more docs/app notes needed.

A nice sortable comparison page.
http://www.atmel.com/dyn/products/param_table.asp?family_id=607&subcat_id=&OrderBy=1229&Direction=ASC#

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2004\06\25@234734 by David P Harris

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I'll take 50, too, again to Canada.
David

Alex Harford wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2004\06\26@034440 by Chetan Bhargava

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Won't customs be a problem there?

Chetan

On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 20:46:45 -0700, David P Harris <RemoveMEdpharrisspam_OUTspamKILLspamtelus.net> wrote:
>
> I'll take 50, too, again to Canada.
> David

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2004\06\26@103001 by Herbert Graf

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On Sat, 2004-06-26 at 03:34, Chetan Bhargava wrote:
> Won't customs be a problem there?
>
> Chetan

       Shouldn't be, at least not for the shipper. The receiver might has to
pay something but if the shipper marks it as "gift" then it should got
through customs without any delay. TTYL

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2004\06\27@003444 by Byron A Jeff

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On Fri, Jun 25, 2004 at 09:28:32PM -0500, David VanHorn wrote:

David,

Thanks for the info! I'll check it out.

BAJ
{Quote hidden}

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'[AVR:] ATtiny11s group buy?'
2004\07\02@002941 by William Chops Westfield
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On Jun 25, 2004, at 11:50 AM, Bhargava wrote:
>
> The simplest programmer that I found is:
> http://home.pages.at/arnerossius/schalt/mikro/attiny11.gif
>
hmm.  that looks a lot more complicated than it ought to be.  When you
think about it, an ATtiny11 programmer ought to look a LOT like a JDM
pic16F84, which is also a 'high voltage' serial programmed part.

BillW

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2004\07\03@222619 by William Chops Westfield

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On Jul 1, 2004, at 9:30 PM, William Chops Westfield wrote:

>> home.pages.at/arnerossius/schalt/mikro/attiny11.gif
>>
> hmm.  that looks a lot more complicated than it ought to be.

I think I need to reverse my opinion here.  After looking more
carefully at the attiny11 programming specs, I don't think that
something like the JDM programmer is going to be sufficient to program
it.  The tiny11 requires 2 data inputs, a clock input, AND switchable
VPP, which is one too many to wrangle out of the usual serial port.
And it's a pretty complicated programming algorithm, too, but I guess
that's just a matter of Software.  The circuit referenced above uses
manually switched 12V VPP; I'll have to look at whether adding that to
a JDM style programmer will work...  (and atmel wouldn't send me
samples, either.  Hmmph.)

BillW

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2004\07\04@023703 by Chetan Bhargava

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Don't worry about samples, you'll get the real stuff soon. I've found
another distributor who has stock enough for our list. :-)

Regards,

Chetan

> a JDM style programmer will work...  (and atmel wouldn't send me
> samples, either.  Hmmph.)
>
> BillW

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2004\07\09@050049 by Russell McMahon

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I've been putting Chetan to extra work answering my questions as I tried to
get Paypal to do what I wanted - it doesn't like the cheque account
numbering scheme we used here. All sorted out now by another means.

BUT - if I may take the usually naughty step of discussing in public what
was said in private - it seems that Chetan may have a few cents here and
there "profit" from eg finding out that some postage is about 10 cents
cheaper than he expected etc. In hsi srupulous honesty he is intending to
refund these minor amounts.

I would like to suggest that EVERYONE who bout ICs tell him that if there
are a few cents left over then he should keep them. The effort he has gone
to so far far outweighs the minimal return he may get. I'd say that all
would agree that anything up to say $1 per customer is fair game as long as
it was not arrived at intentionally and more than that would depend on each
customer.

In such deals which involves substantial handling I think it would be wise
to add either a small flat charge per order to cover basic handling costs or
maybe a small percentage. I don't recall envelopes, tyres, petrol, or shoe
leather being mentioned, let alone time. I know such things are largely a
labour of love on behalf of the greater family, but even love has to eat :-)

I suggest offers top keep the spare change be made offlist to avoid the
greatful all adding to the list traffic.

For my part - many thanks Chetan. The great gain for me is having these
processors to "play" with, which made lead to ultra low cost applications I
may not otherwise have considered. For one off applications, cost alone
really isn't relevant - a tiny12 would be far better. But for ultra low cost
uses they are several times cheaper. I applaud Atmel for making something
like this so cheap. Let's hope that others match them with processors of
similar capability. Now, if only it had has hardware PWM ... :-)



   Russell McMahon

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2004\07\09@094129 by David VanHorn

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>
>I would like to suggest that EVERYONE who bout ICs tell him that if there
>are a few cents left over then he should keep them. The effort he has gone
>to so far far outweighs the minimal return he may get. I'd say that all
>would agree that anything up to say $1 per customer is fair game as long as
>it was not arrived at intentionally and more than that would depend on each
>customer.

Absolutely! KEEP THE CHANGE! :)

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2004\07\09@153727 by Chetan Bhargava

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Thanks Russell,

I'm glad to see your comment. I did all this for joy and excitement.
It is not my effort alone, it is a group effort and benefits all of
us. Jason is also helping to save some $$. Mr. MCU (on piclist) also
has extended his help to save some $$.

I think it will be a more than a dollar refund :-) at least to US
members whom I charged $1 extra for the envelope. All of the US
members have agreed on USPS priority mail so I'll use the free
supplies from USPS. Right now I'm keeping the extra money for 'buffer'
but will reimburse later.

As a matter of fact I have been flamed for sending spams regarding
ATTINY11 goup buy. http://www.bhargavaz.com/tiny11gb/flames.txt
:-((

Regards,

Chetan


On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 20:32:14 +1200, Russell McMahon
<spamBeGoneapptechSTOPspamspamEraseMEparadise.net.nz> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2004\07\09@174708 by Matt Pobursky

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On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:36:45 -0700, Chetan Bhargava wrote:
> As a matter of fact I have been flamed for sending spams regarding
> ATTINY11 goup buy. http://www.bhargavaz.com/tiny11gb/flames.txt
> :-((

Well, I guess that just goes to prove the old adage "No good deed goes
unpunished"...

I can't believe that with all the REAL spam floating around the
internet these days someone would bitch about someone else offering a
legitimate good deal to a targeted audience. Ah well, I guess some
people are just hyper-sensitive about what shows up in their email. My
suggestion to them is to lighten up a bit and take it in stride.

"Life is too short for drinking bad wine and warm beer"

Matt Pobursky
Maximum Performance

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2004\07\09@202130 by Dwayne Reid

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At 01:36 PM 7/9/2004, Chetan Bhargava wrote:

>As a matter of fact I have been flamed for sending spams regarding
>ATTINY11 goup buy. http://www.bhargavaz.com/tiny11gb/flames.txt

Do you still need to find homes for 5 tubes of 50 pcs each?  If so, I would
consider upping my order to 2 batches of 50 instead of just 1.  Let me know.

dwayne

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2004\07\09@203000 by David VanHorn

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At 06:19 PM 7/9/2004 -0600, Dwayne Reid wrote:

>At 01:36 PM 7/9/2004, Chetan Bhargava wrote:
>
>>As a matter of fact I have been flamed for sending spams regarding
>>ATTINY11 goup buy. http://www.bhargavaz.com/tiny11gb/flames.txt
>
>Do you still need to find homes for 5 tubes of 50 pcs each?  If so, I would
>consider upping my order to 2 batches of 50 instead of just 1.  Let me know.

Me too!

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2004\07\09@204248 by Chetan Bhargava

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Hi Dwayne,

I have sent money and information to Jason who will be ordering the
devices. Jason has the control now.

You are signed up for one tube of 50 do you want to make it 4 tubes of 50?


>
> Do you still need to find homes for 5 tubes of 50 pcs each?  If so, I would
> consider upping my order to 2 batches of 50 instead of just 1.  Let me know.
>
> dwayne
>

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2004\07\09@204947 by David VanHorn

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At 05:42 PM 7/9/2004 -0700, Chetan Bhargava wrote:

>Hi Dwayne,
>
>I have sent money and information to Jason who will be ordering the
>devices. Jason has the control now.
>
>You are signed up for one tube of 50 do you want to make it 4 tubes of 50?

Four is a bit much, but I could deal with two.

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2004\07\09@205155 by Chetan Bhargava

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ok let me check with Jason


On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 19:49:12 -0500, David VanHorn <RemoveMEdvanhornspamspamBeGonecedar.net> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2004\07\09@205156 by David VanHorn

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>0?
>
>Four is a bit much, but I could deal with two.

Sorry, I thought that was to me. :)

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2004\07\09@210026 by Chetan Bhargava

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David,

I have added 50 to your quantity too... :-)

I'll update the webpage soon...

Regards,



On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 19:52:34 -0500, David VanHorn <RemoveMEdvanhornEraseMEspamspam_OUTcedar.net> wrote:
> >0?
> >
> >Four is a bit much, but I could deal with two.
>
> Sorry, I thought that was to me. :)
>

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2004\07\17@005717 by Chetan Bhargava

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Google has indexed our group buy page. Search google for 'attiny11
group buy'. Martin's name comes first :-)


Regards,

Chetan

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2004\07\23@171220 by Chetan Bhargava

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Hi All,

I have started shipping the tubes. First batch has been shipped today.
Shipping status can be checked at http://www.bhargavaz.net/tiny11gb/

Thanks all for making it happen!

Regards,

Chetan Bhargava

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'[AVR:] ATtiny11s group buy?'
2004\08\03@232429 by Russell McMahon
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Chetan,

150 x ATtiny11 received OK here thanks


       Russell McMahon

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2004\08\04@020314 by Chetan Bhargava

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Great! Enjoy your Tiny 11 devices. What have you thought for the
programmer? Hope that you are reading tiny11group mails :-)

You are geographically farthest from here, so I'm assuming everyone
else should have got their stuff by now or must be getting very
shortly.

Regards,

Chetan


On Wed, 4 Aug 2004 15:23:56 +1200, Russell McMahon
<spamBeGoneapptechEraseMEspamparadise.net.nz> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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http://www.bhargavaz.net

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2004\08\04@213714 by Jake Anderson

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where is this tiny11 list?

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2004\08\04@215207 by Chetan Bhargava

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This is a simple list created for members of tiny11 group buy. It is a
manual list (simple sendmail alias). We are currently discussing
programmer for tiny11.

Regards,

Chetan


On Thu, 5 Aug 2004 11:36:27 +1000, Jake Anderson
<grooveeeEraseMEspam@spam@optushome.com.au> wrote:
> where is this tiny11 list?
>

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2004\08\04@230024 by Liam O'Hagan

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Hi Jake,

I received your 50 ATTiny11's

Email mee offlist to organise when and where to pick them up!

Regards

Liam

> where is this tiny11 list?
>
>> {Original Message removed}

2004\08\05@194630 by David P Harris

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Chetan-
50 x ATTiny11s received OK in Victoria, BC....
Thanks,
David

Russell McMahon wrote:

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