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'[ADMIN]: Question about member'
2008\05\29@182519 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
> Yes, my first post here many years ago as a complete newbie was an attack
on me by Olin.

... I think many of us got this. I still remember, my face went red once but
then when it got back to normal I thought it over again, and actually he had
right - I did not have time to look into docs and Olin I think got enough of
'stupid' posts so I got a slap - it happens. Nobody died. Well I still
respect him very much especially as he's the evangelist of assembly
development which I quite agree with. I think the list was a bit more active
when he he was more active, now I barely can see any [PIC] tags which is a
bit weird in piclist. I still believe that this list is the most engineering
one though, and because of couple of slaps I would not give it up reading it
- do not have to take everything personally.

Regards,
Tamas



On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 8:46 PM, fred jones <spam_OUTboattowTakeThisOuTspamhotmail.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

2008\05\30@035549 by Dan Smith

face picon face
2008/5/30 Dario Greggio <.....adpm.toKILLspamspam.....inwind.it>:
> James Newton wrote:
>
>> It is my understanding that Olin is very active on the Microchip forums. He
>
> he isn't anymore

I believe that he fell out with the admins on the Microchip forums
over a rating system that they introduced.

Dan

2008\05\30@094544 by David VanHorn

picon face
> I note that you're not claiming I was wrong, only that you didn't like it.
> And what harm exactly was done?  Even though you protest, it probably got
> you to clean up your act.  I bet you did your homework properly before the
> next post.

I think the distinction is between "radical honesty" and "brutal honesty".
I hope you can say the same things, but put a softer edge on it.
Being unnecessarily harsh can also obscure the point that you were making.

2008\05\30@095715 by Martin

face
flavicon
face
Same here: I learned quickly enough to do my own research. I've met Olin
in person and he's a nice guy, believe it-- or not. He may lash back a
little hard in email, but if a person is asking for help they shouldn't
be upset at the responses they get. Especially if they're not paying for
it. We're not in highschool anymore (most of us?)
-
Martin


Tamas Rudnai wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2008\05\30@103005 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
> ... if a person is asking for help they shouldn't
> be upset at the responses they get. Especially if they're
> not paying for
> it.

The merit of that position as a general one is moot.
BUT its merit as it pertains to this list is low.
The list has rules. They are far less draconian than those
for many lists. This is notionally a moderated list, but the
moderation is usually extremely light handed. The rules are
enforced only when participants fail to enforce them
themselves. Nobody is obliged to obey the rules - only those
who wish to participate as list members are required to do
so and membership is voluntary.

Essentially the rules are -

No (significant) politics.
No (significant) religious content
No (significant) sexual content.
No (even to a minor extent) abusing, demeaning, denigrating,
flaming, hitting with wet fish, criticising ... <you get the
idea> others.

The last is more enthusiastically policed than the other 3,
although #2 gets its share from time to time.

So the assertion above is irrelevant - some responses are
unallowed regardless of anything. The standard terms of
redress are available - the highway is always waiting.

There are a few more unwritten rules as well: No seeming to
denigrate NASA if you live in NZ. No talking about Global
Warming unless you agree to agree that the emperor has
clothes on. No talking about evolution if you think it's a
religious issue (rule 2 applies). No stapling, spindling,
folding or mutilating of the admins, YMMV.


       Russell





2008\05\30@131615 by James Newton

face picon face
Dan Smith Sent: Friday, May 30, 2008 00:55
>
> 2008/5/30 Dario Greggio <EraseMEadpm.tospam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTinwind.it>:
> > James Newton wrote:
> >
> >> It is my understanding that Olin is very active on the Microchip
forums. He
> >
> > he isn't anymore
>
> I believe that he fell out with the admins on the Microchip forums
> over a rating system that they introduced.
>
> Dan

How surprising.

Is there another PIC related forum somewhere where Olin might find better
administration? A Yahoo group? A Google group?

I'm sure it couldn't be a pattern with Olin... It must be that these two
groups (PICList and microchip forums) are flawed and so are likely to be the
only ones with which Olin would have problems. Finding a group with
competent administration where Olin can participate should be our goal.

The other 2000 or so members of the PICList and the thousands of people who
are members on the microchip forum must be commended (or ridiculed?) for
putting up with the poor administration of these groups.

Of course, Olin could administrate his own group... But perhaps his skills
expend only to knowing bad administration when he sees it rather than to
knowing how to be a good administrator himself?

--
James.


2008\05\30@132001 by Martin

face
flavicon
face
Apptech wrote:
>> ... if a person is asking for help they shouldn't
>> be upset at the responses they get. Especially if they're
>> not paying for
>> it.
>
> The merit of that position as a general one is moot.
> BUT its merit as it pertains to this list is low.

I realize the list has rules. Maybe I should have added a:
Use RealWorld;
before my message.

Regardless of the list rules it resides in the worldly domain.
Unenforced or selectively enforced restrictions are not suggestions, not
rules... so the list inherits norms of typical social interaction...


--
Martin

2008\05\30@140426 by Martin

face
flavicon
face
... are suggestions, not rules ...

Martin wrote:
>
> I realize the list has rules. Maybe I should have added a:
> Use RealWorld;
> before my message.
>
> Regardless of the list rules it resides in the worldly domain.
> Unenforced or selectively enforced restrictions are not suggestions, not
> rules... so the list inherits norms of typical social interaction...
>
>
> --
> Martin

2008\05\30@141633 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
As I understand there are two main issue here, from one side Olin's problem
is that only him censored, and the second one is that admins claim some
inappropriate or impolite posts to the piclist.

Is not it possible to create a some kind of bayes filter (aka spam filter)
to filtering rude posts for censoring? I mean for everyone, not only one
person. So that it would not be applied to only one, plus there will be
possible to moderate the list.

Tamas


On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 7:03 PM, Martin <martinspamspam_OUTnnytech.net> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> -

2008\05\30@142802 by olin piclist

face picon face
James Newton wrote:
>> I believe that he fell out with the admins on the Microchip forums
>> over a rating system that they introduced.
>
> How surprising.

How disingenuous.

I have explained in detail at least twice here what is going on, as I'm sure
you are aware.

{Quote hidden}

So sarcastic snide comments whos only purpose are to insult are now allowed
here, or will you be putting yourself on moderation?


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\05\30@215629 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face

> Apptech wrote:
>>> ... if a person is asking for help they shouldn't
>>> be upset at the responses they get. Especially if
>>> they're
>>> not paying for
>>> it.

>> The merit of that position as a general one is moot.
>> BUT its merit as it pertains to this list is low.

> I realize the list has rules. Maybe I should have added a:
> Use RealWorld;
> before my message.

Maybe you should have. It makes no difference to the
arguments' validity. For the purposes of the discussion the
list *IS* the real world. It matters not how people treat
people elsewhere. The real rules here relate to the present
reality.

> Regardless of the list rules it resides in the worldly
> domain.

" ... in it, not of it ..." :-)

> Unenforced or selectively enforced restrictions are _
> suggestions, not
> rules...

No.
Not at all.
eg a parent sets rules for their children but largely
doesn't police the limit with  black & white distinction.
Socially, rules are guideline and boundaries set for a
purpose (regardless of whether one approves of them)  which
one would hope that those "ruled" would far exceed in their
daily performance. If you stay well away from the electric
fence it matters not if it is on. If you don't knock down
people in pubs as a way of life it's less likely that you
will be be charged with murder in a pub fight. etc.

Rules don't have to be absolutely and always enforced to be
effective. And amongst mature people this is perhaps more
true.

We all (or many) test the boundaries here on occasion. If
the admins deign to allow us to not die then that's fine.
But in the day we die for our deeds we have no grounds for
complaint. We can complain, and we do, but without any great
hope of being heard.

> so the list inherits norms of typical social
> interaction...

No, it doesn't.
That is what this is all about. Just because much of society
grabs the newcomer by the throat and shakes them mercilessly
for a while to put them in their place and establish who is
important and what the pecking order is (ie typical social
interactions) doesn't mean that it happens here. Here, and
on any list, the admins are god-substitutes. Flawed perhaps,
whimsical perhaps, inconsistent perhaps, or not, but god is
god within the system. Wannabee god's have an approved means
of joining the god club - sign up as an admin and take up
the workload. All (almost) are called but few volunteer.
Anyone else wanting to say how the rules should be enforced
may be heard but it's up to the god-substitutes as to
whether they are listened to.

The rules *here* in this reality are, protests to the
contrary notwithstanding, clear enough. Most manage OK with
them mostly. If Olin could avoid savaging newcomers until
they had gained a bit of experience with the list then a bit
of raving and yelling might almost be acceptable. Once
people understand how most behave here and what is expected
AND how good Olin is overall, then they can probably handle
it. But when you step through the door and the Pit Bull
grabs you by the throat and drags you round the room then
you tend to try and fight back. At that stage a
god_substitute is liable to kick you off and the pecking
order has been preserved. If we could avoid that happening
(eg Olin doesn't ever talk to any one until they have posted
20 messages :-) ) then it could probably work.

I have been thrown off this list in the past, with less
warnings than Olin ever got. I know how it feels. I know how
it modified my actions - and largely not as intended. Olin
and I are not totally dissimilar. If he can manage to "get
over it" as he suggests others should and leave the
newcomers alone totally and let the 99.95% of the others
here deal with them until they have got to sit at the table
for a wee while, then all may be happy in the garden.

   If < N posts ; N tbd.
       ignore
   Endif

Easy :-)


           R







2008\05\31@070443 by K S

picon face
I miss Roman Black and his very interesting posts.

If you look back through the archives you'll clearly see 2 incidences
that lead to his leaving. One was the ascii-art program drama where he
thought others tried to outdo him. The other, and final blow, was a
bashing by Olin.

Olin may be good at what he does does but not good enough to replace
the vast amount of talent he offends and scares away from this list.

2008\05\31@091115 by Joe P. Farr

flavicon
face
I don't post here very often and in fact, I've just had to look up how
to do it as it's been so long, but I try and read as many of the posts
as I can; always something interesting going on and quite often, fate
seems to have somebody find a problem just before I fall down the same
hole. This list has literally saved me many hours of hair pulling, and I
really don't have that much left to spare.

Having been on the receiving end of one of these nasty posts (I'd asked
a question and then a whole war erupted on me sending my questions to
the list as HTML and not Plain Text), I'm well aware of the feelings
that this attitude generates, then, as now, I have the same thought
going though my head... "if you don't have anything to say about my
question, then don't say anything".

If I've been stupid, lazy, rude or anything else, don't reply to me...
just ignore me... People who make repeated posts because they don't get
a reply or are offensive will no doubt be blocked by the Admins. People
who ask stupid questions, and by that I mean nobody thinks the question
is worth responding too, will eventually go else ware, figure it out for
themselves or try asking the question in a different way.

If you can't or won't answer a persons question for whatever reason,
that's the individual's choice.
But to attack them with rudeness is inexcusable.

Most of us are adults, the rest will be one day their God willing.
Grow up people...

Joe




2008\05\31@095450 by olin piclist

face picon face
K S wrote:
> I miss Roman Black and his very interesting posts.
>
> If you look back through the archives you'll clearly see 2 incidences
> that lead to his leaving. One was the ascii-art program drama where he
> thought others tried to outdo him. The other, and final blow, was a
> bashing by Olin.

If you're going to make such a accusation it should be accompanied with
facts.  I respected Roman and don't ever remember "bashing" him.  So unless
you are just engaging in libel, let's see a reference to the post in
question.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\05\31@100053 by olin piclist

face picon face
Joe P. Farr wrote:
> Having been on the receiving end of one of these nasty posts (I'd
> asked a question and then a whole war erupted on me sending my
> questions to the list as HTML and not Plain Text),

Looks like it worked.  Your post is well formatted plain text.

> I'm well aware of
> the feelings that this attitude generates, then, as now, I have the
> same thought going though my head... "if you don't have anything to
> say about my question, then don't say anything".

People like to say that, but of course it doesn't solve the problem.

********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\05\31@114547 by Joe P. Farr

flavicon
face

Olin Lathrop wrote:

>> I'm well aware of
>> the feelings that this attitude generates, then, as now, I have the
>> same thought going though my head... "if you don't have anything to
>> say about my question, then don't say anything".

>People like to say that, but of course it doesn't solve the problem.

Hum... you say that people who don't have anything to say about the
question keeping quiet doesn't solve the problem... what an odd thing to
say.

Its people not keeping quite because of this very thing that caused all
this in the first place.






2008\05\31@145850 by Vitaliy

flavicon
face
Olin Lathrop wrote:
>> Having been on the receiving end of one of these nasty posts (I'd
>> asked a question and then a whole war erupted on me sending my
>> questions to the list as HTML and not Plain Text),
>
> Looks like it worked.  Your post is well formatted plain text.

Olin, what would it take for you to change YOUR behavior? Why is it when
people try to "fix" you using your own methods, you don't get it (see
below)?

Stop with the denials, Olin. You are wrong and you know it. Admit,
apologize, move on.

Vitaliy


----- Original Message -----
From: "James Newton, Host" <@spam@jamesnewtonKILLspamspampiclist.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 15:00
Subject: RE: [PIC] critique KILL THREAD!


{Quote hidden}

2008\05\31@161927 by Tamas Rudnai

face picon face
> Consider this: your battery died, and you ask a stranger if they can give
> you a jump start. Is it OK for the stranger to yell at you, call you a
lazy
> a*hole, and give you a long lecture on how if you weren't such a stupid
> a*hole you would have remembered to turn off your headlights ?

I'm really sorry to disagree here, but in this case Olin is like a
mechanical engineer and a driver for trucks, rally cars and even F1. He can
do whatever he wants with a car, he can drive it or fix it, virtually any
type. And then someone asks a question like "where can I turn on my
lights?". If it happens once in a year, then he may just say RTFM, but when
you can see it too many time, here and on Microchip forum as well I think
everybody starts wondering why people just can't Read The F. Manual... And I
think for a Formula 1 driver it could be so disturbing driving a several
hundred horse power car on a road where loads of provisional drivers are,
sometimes blocking the entire street and asking people around how to handle
the clutch or even more how to use the indicator. Honestly, would you
geneorusly explain to that person? :-)

Tamas


On Sat, May 31, 2008 at 6:41 AM, Vitaliy <spamBeGonespamspamBeGonespammaksimov.org> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> -

2008\05\31@170433 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Olin Lathrop wrote:

> Joe P. Farr wrote:
>> Having been on the receiving end of one of these nasty posts (I'd asked
>> a question and then a whole war erupted on me sending my questions to
>> the list as HTML and not Plain Text),
>
> Looks like it worked.  Your post is well formatted plain text.

I'm pretty sure you know that this is flawed logic; don't try to post below
your level :).

(In case that wasn't clear enough: there's no way to tell whether "it
worked" because or despite or completely independently of what Joe called a
"nasty post".)

>> I'm well aware of the feelings that this attitude generates, then, as
>> now, I have the same thought going though my head... "if you don't have
>> anything to say about my question, then don't say anything".
>
> People like to say that, but of course it doesn't solve the problem.

What problem exactly?

Gerhard

2008\05\31@185359 by olin piclist

face picon face
Joe P. Farr wrote:
>> People like to say that, but of course it doesn't solve the problem.
>
> Hum... you say that people who don't have anything to say about the
> question keeping quiet doesn't solve the problem... what an odd thing
> to say.

You misunderstand what I meant by "problem".  I'm not talking about whatever
the OP asked about, but the problem of people coming here asking stupid
questions that are directly and clearly answered in the manual, using
annoying email formatting, etc.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\05\31@192547 by olin piclist

face picon face
Vitaliy wrote:
{Quote hidden}

I didn't write any of what you quoted.  It's interesting you brought up this
particular incident though.  I thought James overreacted and tried to tell
him so, but the server wouldn't let my email to the admins thru.  I don't
know if they were blocking me or filtering posts with certain keywords.  Any
words I used that might have triggered a filter were only direct quotes of
things others had written.  If that's what happend, it makes you wonder how
you're supposed to discuss objectional material with the admins.

I don't know if any filter is still running, so instead of postig it here I
have put my message to the admins and the response I got at
http://www.embedinc.com/temp/temp.txt.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\05\31@222454 by Cedric Chang

flavicon
face


Olin is not wrong.... he has a style.  His style says a lot about  
him.  It is very easy to selectively ignore Olin, especially if he  
announces at the beginning that his post is not an answer; it is a  
lecture on manners.  Maybe we could even have a tag that indicates  
the post is mainly about RTFM.

Anyone who reacts to Olin has revealed their own personality.  Some  
people understand that being defensive is a waste of time.  Others  
consider it crucial to defend themselves.  Olin is not responsible  
for other people's reactions, especially if he prefaces his remarks  
with a warning when the post is RTFM.

cc

2008\05\31@223734 by Jake Anderson

flavicon
face
Olin Lathrop wrote:
> Joe P. Farr wrote:
>  
>> I'm well aware of
>> the feelings that this attitude generates, then, as now, I have the
>> same thought going though my head... "if you don't have anything to
>> say about my question, then don't say anything".
>>    
>
> People like to say that, but of course it doesn't solve the problem.
>
>  
Is it your problem to solve?
Even if you assume that it is your problem to solve it should be fairly
apparent by now that you would have more success by being nice about it,
you would get the opportunity to educate more people in the ways of
netiquette when your not banned.

As for "unmoderate me or I wont help" I'm not sure which response to have,
a) The list is "opt-in" therefore nobody is asking "you" for help, if
you don't want to, don't, bitching about it is just silly.
b) You gonna hold your breath and stamp your feet too?

2008\05\31@224055 by Jake Anderson

flavicon
face
Your email suggests something,
unmoderate olin
just make it so he cant see posts from people with <n emails to the list
in the past.
everybody wins ;->


Apptech wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2008\05\31@231416 by Jake Anderson

flavicon
face
Cedric Chang wrote:
> Olin is not wrong.... he has a style.  His style says a lot about  
> him.  It is very easy to selectively ignore Olin, especially if he  
> announces at the beginning that his post is not an answer; it is a  
> lecture on manners.  Maybe we could even have a tag that indicates  
> the post is mainly about RTFM.
>
> Anyone who reacts to Olin has revealed their own personality.  Some  
> people understand that being defensive is a waste of time.  Others  
> consider it crucial to defend themselves.  Olin is not responsible  
> for other people's reactions, especially if he prefaces his remarks  
> with a warning when the post is RTFM.
>
> cc
>  
I think the problem is that most people view the piclist as a community
of friends. The question is how do you inform somebody in a social
situation that there is something wrong. Do you as a first measure yell
across the room "hey idiot don't you know you cant wear red and green
together!?" or do you quietly mention the fact to them without being an
ass about it. Generally when somebody is insulted in front of their
friends they will respond in kind. If however somebody politely says the
same thing they will generally take it on board and learn from it.

Olin has been the subject of this discussion over and over again. Either
he is stupid and incapable of learning "be an ass (or what is generally
regarded as being an ass) and get banned" or he does it for the fun of
insulting other people from a righteous position, then he gets in a huff
when he is robbed of the opportunity.

If anything he should feel honoured for being moderated it means people
care enough about his technical knowledge to go out of their way to
include him in list discussions and help him to obey the rules. Anybody
else just gets kicked.

If he cant handle being nice then a moderated list isn't the place for
him, heck in the "real world" insulting anybody who doesn't live up to
your standards is likely to have consequences that can't be corrected by
pressing the delete button.

2008\05\31@231733 by Rolf

face picon face
Olin Lathrop wrote:
> James Newton wrote:
>  
>>> I believe that he fell out with the admins on the Microchip forums
>>> over a rating system that they introduced.
>>>      
>> How surprising.
>>    

[snipped]

Hi Olin, as for me I find this thread somewhat amusing. For a person who
is obviously intelligent, I find it interesting (in an academic way)
that you are unable to 'win people over' more easily.

On a personal note, I mostly ignore your abrasive nature, and I can see
through much of it. I have been the victim of your wrath before, and, in
my instance, I felt your 'fire and brimstone' response was misguided,
and, on further reflection, childish.

Yet, a while ago I had a revelation. I realized that you do not know
everything! You do not know how to 'interface' with (some/many/most)
people without antagonizing them. It still surprises me that you have
not realized this myopia in your personality, so, I think today I will
enlighten you in a way you may understand...

When it comes to interacting with people you appear not to have "RTFM".
Your (e-mail) persona comes across as arrogant, abrasive, and defiant.
Go and read the 'human datasheet', and when you have you can come back
and interact in a more appropriate manner. May I suggest you start with:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Win_Friends_and_Influence_People

... from where, I have copied the following:


     Fundamental Techniques in Handling People

   * "Don't criticize, condemn or complain."
   * "Give honest and sincere appreciation."
   * "Arouse in the other person an eager want."


     Six Ways to Make People Like You

   * "Become genuinely interested in other people."
   * "Smile."
   * "Remember that a man's name is to him the sweetest and most
     important sound in any language."
   * "Be a good listener. Encourage others to talk about themselves."
   * "Talk in the terms of the other man's interest."
   * "Make the other person feel important and do it sincerely."


     Twelve Ways to Win People to Your Way of Thinking

   * "Avoid arguments."
   * "Show respect for the other person's opinions. Never tell someone
     they are wrong."
   * "If you're wrong, admit it quickly and emphatically."
   * "Begin in a friendly way."
   * "Start with questions the other person will answer yes to."
   * "Let the other person do the talking."
   * "Let the other person feel the idea is his/hers."
   * "Try honestly to see things from the other person's point of view."
   * "Sympathize with the other person."
   * "Appeal to noble motives."
   * "Dramatize your ideas."
   * "Throw down a challenge."


     Nine Ways to Change People Without Giving Offense or Arousing
     Resentment

   * "Begin with praise and honest appreciation."
   * "Call attention to other people's mistakes indirectly."
   * "Talk about your own mistakes first."
   * "Ask questions instead of giving direct orders."
   * "Let the other person save face."
   * "Praise every improvement."
   * "Give them a fine reputation to live up to."
   * "Encourage them by making their faults seem easy to correct."
   * "Make the other person happy about doing what you suggest."



Also, may I suggest RFC1855....

So, may I suggest that you take a step back and realize that not many
people on piclist actually like you (although people do respect your
technical abilities). According to Dale Carneige, you have managed to
break almost every (actually, I think you have broken every single
one...) 'winning' technique in his book. It should come as no surprise
to you that "when you operate a part outside of its ratings, that
strange things may happen and parts may become damaged".

What I find so fascinating about your behavior, more than anything else,
is that you really think that you can blackmail people (Jim - note1)
into helping you get 're-instated', and that you think you can threaten
people (Fred - note2), and then (to top it all) ridicule the 'admins'
(James - note3 and Herbert - note4), and that by doing this people will
want to have you around like a nice comfortable friendly chum. Every
single one of these actions is likely to have the opposite of the
intended result. You have hit rock at the bottom of the pit you have
dug, and yet you still keep digging. Frankly, I find it hard to believe
that your motives are really to be 'reinstated' or 'uncensored'. Your
actions are so contrary to your stated goals that I have to believe your
are gaming for something else.... though I can't seem to think of what
that may be other than simply to "play a game with piclist because you
are mad at it". Actually, it may also be because you need to get more
advertising out for your products.

If you really wanted to be respected and liked here, a more appropriate
approach would be a sincere attempt at mending some bridges (or building
some new ones) rather than to launch a hostile blackmail attack.

So, I know it takes all types to make the world go around, but, as I
say, for an intelligent person, you are just doing it all wrong. To
quote you

If someone does something stupid, lazy, or arrogant, they should be prepared to be called on it.  If
they can't handle that, they don't belong here or most anywhere else.

Well, you have done something stupid, arrogant and also wrong. It is
stupid to insult the admins of the list, it is wrong to blackmail people
in to doing things for you, and it is arrogant to think that just
because you know PIC's really well that you must be worth having around
in the piclist.

So, decide for yourself whether you belong here...... because, for the
most part, you are never 'prepared to be called on it' when you
antagonize, belittle, and generally insult people. So, I believe you
are, at the moment, being particularly stupid, and:

I don't think it was cultural differences as much as people reacting
inappropriately when they got caught publicly doing something stupid.  Some
people instead of saying "oops" get defensive and attack the messenger.

This I think applies to your situation quite suitably.  Whenever your
hurtful 'outbursts' are challenged you respond with defensiveness and
attack the messenger.

In addition, in general, people who force ultimatums loose out:

They can treat me like dirt or have me add
value to the list.  They get to pick only one.

When confronted with ultimatums, people do not normally roll-over and
take it. Ultimatums are desperate, immature responses.

Finally, everyone has opinions. Everyone has their own conscience.
Everyone has a comfort zone. Most importantly, everyone has a different
set of ethical and principle structures. If we were all the same it
would be boring. Most people come to understand this in nursery school
(or younger) when kids are taught to share, to not bully, and to be
sensitive to other people's emotional state. Yet, you have the arrogance
to assume that your set of values is better than anyone else. You
further have the arrogance to make broad, inaccurate, and demeaning
statements on behalf of others, "putting words in other peoples mouths",
that are not necessarily (or even remotely) true:

Too many people on this list adhere to the silly notion that if you can't
say something nice you shouldn't say it at all.  It is certainly easier to
avoid being the messenger, but is less useful in the long run.  If you do
something that others perceive as stupid, wouldn't you rather know that than
being given content-free placitudes with everyone laughing behind your back?

People believe in the "silly" notion because it is not silly. Anyway,
beliefs are beliefs, and just because you don't have the same moral
value set does not make you right. Additionally, Just because you
perceive something as 'stupid' does not mean that everyone thinks it is
stupid. And finally, just because you may be laughing at someone (and
expressing it too their face too) does not mean that everyone else is
laughing 'behind their back'. That entire paragraph illustrates so much
of your arrogance, and highlights the differences between you and me.
Your instinct appears to 'correct' people's stupidity by ridiculing
them. Other people have different responses. As a side-note, you say it
is 'easier to avoid being the messenger' as if you are sacrificing
yourself to inform 'them' of their stupidity.... well, now you know what
the real sacrifice is: by volunteering to be the (blunt and arrogant)
messenger you are attracting the scorn of others, and certainly not
making friends.

Finally (again), you believe that 999 times out of 1000 you are right...
well, you are wrong. Every time you belittle a person you are wrong.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. As much as you feel a person may deserve it, you
are still wrong.

But again, you bring up the single case where there was a true
misunderstanding.  Mistakes get made in any system, but getting it wrong
once in 1000 instances doesn't make it a good idea to deal with the other
999 cases less efficiently and effectively.

I think a lot of the things people take issue with can be summarized in
one more sentence (by you)...

It really doesn't
matter if someone said "No, that should be 200 ohms." versus "anyone that
passed 7th grade math can see that it should be 200 ohms.".

There is a big difference in the two alternatives... anyone who has
graduated from kindergarten can see it!

(E-mail intentionally sent in HTML (and plain text) because it supports
the more complex quoting format. Stick that in your pipe!).

Rolf

note1:

If you want more free help on the list, try convincing the admins to treat
me like everyone else here.

note2:

If you're going to make such a accusation it should be accompanied with
facts.  I respected Roman and don't ever remember "bashing" him.  So unless
you are just engaging in libel, let's see a reference to the post in
question.

note3

I don't think what I've done here recently has been against any rules,
although sometimes it's hard to tell because James' threshold is ever
changing and getting more touchy-feely over time.
....
James used to understand the distinction between "this is wrong" versus "you are a
stupid person", but lately can't seem to see the difference.

note4

The question isn't about whether it would work but what your idea of "work"
is, of course.  If you'd rather have a low content touchy-feely list than a
vibrant useful one, even if a occasional lazy poster gets upset, then things
do "work" better according to your definition now.  However if that's your
choice you don't belong as a admin, but that's another discussion.






2008\05\31@232903 by Jinx

face picon face
> Olin is not responsible for other people's reactions

Of course he is. Everybody is. That's what communication
is all about. If you stopped to ask directions and was told
"Don't be lazy. Go and buy a map, it's all in there, stupid",
would you feel just ever so slightly pissed off ? Or "I'll tell
you for 10 bucks". How would you react to "Down there,
take the first left, second right..." ? ".... and maybe carry a
set of maps with you next time" ?


'[ADMIN]: Question about member'
2008\06\01@000022 by Jake Anderson
flavicon
face
top posting for the win

<comic book guy>best post ever </CBG>
(well on this thread)

Rolf wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2008\06\01@013015 by spam

flavicon
face
Sorry, using webmail and orignally sent the reply to Tamas...

Quoting Tamas Rudnai <tamas.rudnaiEraseMEspam.....gmail.com>:
> I'm really sorry to disagree here, but in this case Olin is like a
mechanical engineer and a driver for trucks, rally cars and even F1. He can
do whatever he wants with a car, he can drive it or fix it, virtually any
type. And then someone asks a question like "where can I turn on my
lights?".<

It doesn't matter if he's Einstein, he does not have the right to  
insult and belittle you.

> Honestly, would you
geneorusly explain to that person? :-)<

I would choose to ignore the request, before I call the person a "dirtbag".

The argument from you and some others seems to be, Olin's  
contributions to the list excuse his behavior. Am I right?

Vitaliy

2008\06\01@035251 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
Jinx wrote:
>> Olin is not responsible for other people's reactions
>
> Of course he is. Everybody is.

That leads nowhere, the same reasoning makes the original posters
responsible for Olin's reactions.

--

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

2008\06\01@041304 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
Let me say at the outset here I am definitely not here
yelling at CC, turning red in the face or waving my arms in
the air. Rather I am, as it were,  sitting by a nice roaring
winter fire (wet cold rainy here) and discussing the finer
and not so fine points. We may even manage to agree at some
point :-) :

Lay on -

> Olin is not wrong....

No.
He is, or was, wrong.
There are rules.
Regardless of whether he thinks they are a bit of a variable
feast, and even if they have moved somewhat, or not, the
problem is not that he falls afoul of them unawares but that
he INSISTS (I'd use bigger capitals but that would need
ASCII and someome may complain) that what he does is bothe a
good idea AND (big CaPs) that he should be allowed to. Both
points are moot and both are irrelevant. Even if he were
right [tm] he is NOT allowed to, he's been told he's not
allowed to, he insists (still) that he should be allowed to
and he fell on his sword and died. He may be very
princiaplled but he's dead.

> he has a style.  His style says a lot about
> him.

Irrelevant. He can have all the style he wishes. So can I.
So can you. But if the style transgresses the dress code and
we are told repeatedly that it does then we too will die. It
may take longer or shortyer but Olin kept chipping away at
it until he got it right.

I agree that sometimes hje was given less rope than I would
have expected and that even the offence on occasion MAY have
been questionable, but when you are on your 9th life it's
probably worth just letting a stupid lazy Enblish-incapable
newbie alone for others to sort out. Walk away walk away ...
.

> It is very easy to selectively ignore Olin,

That's OK if you are stupid and old and thick skineed like,
er, me, and maybe others nearby :-) - but some really aren't
like that.
***Which is irrelevant ***/
BECAUSE
> especially if he
> announces at the beginning that his post is not an answer;
> it is a
> lecture on manners.  Maybe we could even have a tag that
> indicates
> the post is mainly about RTFM.

It's not his job, he's been told it's not his job, he knows
its not his job, he knows what will happen if he makes it
his job, but he cannot help himself.

I resemble that ! :-) !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just not so badly in this particular area. I can sympathise
with Olinj being like this in this area because part of me
is like tghat too. But in quite different areas. But he
happens to be like this in this area and tghe wages of sin
is death and he died.


> Anyone who reacts to Olin has revealed their own
> personality.

May or may not be true.
But, again, entirely irrelevant. Olin, and you, and me, are
not allowed to bollock stupid lazy over-reactive newbies. OR
people clearly showing a degree of mental instability. Or
people who are borderline suicidal. It's a condition of
belonging to the list that we don't do this. And in the day
that we doi it we can expect to die. He did. He did.

> Some
> people understand that being defensive is a waste of time.

Moot.

> Others  consider it crucial to defend themselves.

"understand" and "consider" there are interchangeable. The
statements are subjective and depend on one's personal
interpretation of the "right" way to behave.

> Olin is not responsible
> for other people's reactions,

He is if they react to his rudeness, as he's not allowed to
be rude. "Rude" being defined by the Admins. .

> especially if he prefaces his remarks
> with a warning when the post is RTFM.

He is if they react to his rudeness, as he's not allowed to
be rude. "Rude" being defined by the Admins. .

>
> cc


   RM

2008\06\01@050533 by Jinx

face picon face
> >> Olin is not responsible for other people's reactions
> >
> > Of course he is. Everybody is.
>
> That leads nowhere

I believe it does lead somewhere. It leads to the very point

> the same reasoning makes the original posters responsible for
> Olin's reactions

And what about everybody else ? Describe how they react

2008\06\01@094537 by olin piclist

face picon face
Jake Anderson wrote:
> Your email suggests something,
> unmoderate olin
> just make it so he cant see posts from people with <n emails to the
> list in the past.
> everybody wins ;->

No, I'd still be treated differently and have the rules applied to me
differently.

And let's keep all this in context.  This isn't about me telling someone
they were stupid or lazy.  According to James, the post that caused him to
turn on censorship for me last October was:

{Quote hidden}

1 - This is not against any rules as they are stated.

2 - I'm quite convinced that if anyone else had said this, they wouldn't be
subjected to censorship.

3 - There is a very big difference between saying "You're a dirtbag", and
explaining how this one post could indicate that.  James used to understand
this distinction, in fact he used to stress it.  Now he either can't see the
difference or, more likely, is merely looking for a excuse to censor my
posts even if that means selectively interpreting the rules.

I had two purposes with that post.  One was to point out to the OP that from
the information he'd given, it could appear he was trying to steal
something.  The second was to make sure that anyone else that might be
inclined to help him consider the fact that they may be aiding a crime.  I
can't say whether the OP was actually trying to steal, but since it was a
real possibility I personally would not have helped him even if I did have
the code in question.  Others can decide whether they should or shouldn't
help him on their own.  I did think it was important however that they
considered the possible crime angle before doing so.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\06\01@094817 by olin piclist

face picon face
Jinx wrote:
>> Olin is not responsible for other people's reactions
>
> Of course he is. Everybody is. That's what communication
> is all about. If you stopped to ask directions and was told
> "Don't be lazy. Go and buy a map, it's all in there, stupid",
> would you feel just ever so slightly pissed off ?

How you feel is irrelevant, it's what you DO about it that matters.  You'd
have no right, for example, to run the person over with your car, pull out a
gun and shoot him, or yell at him at the top of your lungs.  And if you did
do any of those, you can't blame it on the person that refused to help.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\06\01@112537 by Edward King

flavicon
face
Olin Wrote:
> You misunderstand what I meant by "problem".  I'm not talking about
> whatever the OP asked about, but the problem of people coming here
> asking stupid questions that are directly and clearly answered in the
> manual, using annoying email formatting, wah-wah <dunk>

Who exactly do you think you are? Who are you to decide what is stupid and
what is not?
It is very easy to miss a small but crucial detail in a manual; even more so
if - as a newbie - a person doesn't necessarily know what they're looking
for....Your failure to understand this is more a reflection on you than it
is on them and I say this safe in the knowledge that I spend a great deal of
time scanning through product manuals and datasheets.

As a long time list-lurker and only occasional poster, I have to say that -
having observed your behaviour - I find your attitude to be unprofessional.
Your lack of good manners and understanding of human nature no doubt
_causes_ more problems than you alledge it "solves". Furthermore, you appear
to have delusions of grandeur and your behaviour can only be described as
"childish" - pure and simple. Talent (real or perceived) is not a free
license to obnoxious behaviour.

This is a community, designed to share information and members with
knowledge above and beyond that of "newbies" elect to share their
experiences as and when they can. In almost _all_ cases (but yours), they do
so with a modicum of dignity, respect and friendliness. As another - more
senior - poster put it "these are the things that most of us learn in
kindergarten".

Grow up. For your own sake if no one elses. And if you can't or wont grow up
then shut up.

EK


2008\06\01@113342 by John Ferrell

face picon face
I am well aware of my personal limitations and the fact that the aging
process is eroding my intellectual qualities.

However, the real puzzle to me is why anyone so talented and brilliant finds
it necessary to bully and belittle another who at least appears to be a bit
less blessed with those talents.

Another way of saying it:
There are few creatures dumber than a chicken. Chickens all have the
instinct to bully a weaker chicken.

I enjoy and appreciate the help that I find on this list. Its benefits are
worth defending.
To those who find my questions and comments a waste of bandwidth or worse, I
apologize.

A special thanks to the moderators who preserve the environment!

John Ferrell    W8CCW

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing." -- Edmund Burke
http://DixieNC.US

{Original Message removed}

2008\06\02@092121 by David VanHorn

picon face
Olin, I wish you could talk with my OSO about this.   She would tell
you that while it is important to be honest, that brutal honesty is
frequently counterproductive.

So someone asked a question that you found offensive.  I agree, in the
example that you quoted above, it did seem that the person might be
trying to obtain software without paying for it.

I think most of the people on this list would be opposed to that idea.

But why did you choose to reply the way you did?  You could have used
a softer tone.
It is important to remember that text isn't a wonderful communications
medium. People say things they didn't mean, or say it in a way that
could be misinterpreted.  YOU might have misinterpreted.

So why not tone it down a little?
I think you would have been fine without the "dirtbag".

2008\06\02@104350 by Michael Rigby-Jones

picon face
> -----Original Message-----
> From: EraseMEpiclist-bouncesspammit.edu [RemoveMEpiclist-bouncesEraseMEspamEraseMEmit.edu] On
Behalf
> Of Olin Lathrop
> Sent: 01 June 2008 14:50
> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
> Subject: Re: [ADMIN]: Question about member
>
>
> How you feel is irrelevant


You know Olin, your behaviour reminds me very much of an acquaintance
that I later discovered had mild Asperger syndrome.  He was renown for
upsetting and angering people with very insensitive comments but was
completely unaware of it. Most people simply considered him socially
inept.

Regards

Mike

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2008\06\02@112730 by olin piclist

face picon face
David VanHorn wrote:
> I think you would have been fine without the "dirtbag".

But also fine with it according to the rules.  It was just a mildly humerous
way to emphasize the point.  I wasn't saying the OP was a dirtbag, only that
the information he'd given suggested it as a possibility that others would
have to consider before granting his request.

However all this is aside from the main point, which is that the rules are
being applied selectively.  I'm quite sure that if anyone else had posted
that reply nothing would have come of it.

Selectively applying the rules is particularly wrong when James himself
doesn't adhere to them.  I'm still waiting for James to tell us whether his
last outburst indicated a relaxing of the rules or whether he will now put
himself on moderation.  I doubt anyone here would disagree that if I had
said about anyone what he said about me, that would trigger moderation or
booting me off the list completely.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\06\02@114115 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
>> How you feel is irrelevant

> You know Olin, your behaviour reminds me very much of an
> acquaintance
> that I later discovered had mild Asperger syndrome.  He
> was renown for
> upsetting and angering people with very insensitive
> comments but was
> completely unaware of it. Most people simply considered
> him socially
> inept.

I resemble that :-).
Just in a different way to Olin.
I have a strong streak of social ineptitude (ask James, he's
met me) but it usually doesn't show in the same way that
Olin's does (always assuming of course that he actually has
such a streak). I find that I am getting "more pronounced"
in most of my attributes with time - the good and the bad.
While I do not necessarily identify all the things that
others may identify in my behaviours as bad as bad, or as
undesirable as undesirable (or should that be as undesirable
as bad and as bad as undesirable), but I digress, [ :-) ] ,
I am learning to moderate myself to some extent in some
areas both for self preservation and for the sake of others.
There's some overlap between the two :-).

Olin so far seems unwilling to moderate his asocial
behaviours for either reason (always assuming he has such,
as I do). It may be that he already does and what we see is
the moderated self. As it is with me. Just imagine me
unmoderated, as it were. Maybe not a good idea :-).




       Russell


2008\06\02@161312 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Mon, 2008-06-02 at 16:07 -0400, Gaston Gagnon wrote:
> Vitaliy, Olin does filter OT messages. You should repost with ADMIN tag
> Gaston

Grrr... again, the list being changed for one member...

PLEASE, do not respond with the ADMIN tag, there is NO reason the
response belongs on the list with the ADMIN tag set.

If Olin doesn't receive the OT tag, then copy the message to him
privately.

DO NOT post to the list with an inappropriate tag simply because a
certain member doesn't subscribe to the tag that should be used.

Basics people, basics...

2008\06\02@195936 by Sergey Dryga

face
flavicon
face
Olin Lathrop <olin_piclist <at> embedinc.com> writes:

<SNIP>

{Quote hidden}

I have followed this thread with some amusement, especially since Olin appears
to have missed the point completely.  

Olin, may I suggest an alternative version for the response?
Response: "Dear OP, as I have explained to you when you called Embed, the code
is copyrighted and I wanted to clarify that the terms of the copyright prohibit
distribution of the code without express authorization by Embed.  It appears
that by asking for this code on the PICList, you violate the terms of the
copyright and might be violating the term of use of the List.  Because of your
actions, somebody on PICList might inadvertently become a party to fraudulent
activity.  I, therefore, urge you to resolve customer support issues with the
company, not by engaging in potentially illegal activities on the List."

I think that this or similar response will achieve all your goals, plus provide
good advertisement for your company.  As it stands now, the result is
counterproductive.  I do not know if the goal of not providing that code "free"
was achieved, but that post and this thread have provided significant negative
publicity for your company.  As a potential customer, I will not even think to
consider Embed in the future, because no technology or device is worth the
treatment that customers receive from you.  I am not saying that this particular
customer is right or wrong, I do not have all facts.  

If somebody in my department sends email to customers with  suggestion, even as
a joke, that they are dirtbags, I will probably fire that person on spot.

BTW, this list is a non-obligatory one.  Nobody forces people to answer the
posts.  So, Olin, if you feel that the person is asking a stupid question, why
do you spend time on the post?  Just ignore it.  There are some posts that go
unanswered here from time to time, and that is OK.  Otherwise, it appears that
you just went your anger on this list and this is not a good idea.

Best regards,

Sergey Dryga

http://www.beaglerobotics.com

P.S. If I am completely off base here, please let me know, just do not call me
any bad names if you expect me to answer.  Life is too short ...



2008\06\03@080358 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Tamas Rudnai wrote:

> And I think for a Formula 1 driver it could be so disturbing driving a
> several hundred horse power car on a road where loads of provisional
> drivers are, sometimes blocking the entire street and asking people
> around how to handle the clutch or even more how to use the indicator.
> Honestly, would you geneorusly explain to that person? :-)

Not sure, but maybe that driver shouldn't be driving there then?

Also, when a simple "RTFM" is enough, why go out of my way to insult the
person? What good does it do? If all Olin did in such cases is send a
"RTFM" (or send nothing), there wouldn't be a problem. (FWIW, I think
Rolf's message on this thread nailed it.)

If Olin needs a place to be rude, I'm sure there are other options. Taking
up some form of a martial art often helps with this. Or meditation.

Gerhard

2008\06\03@081414 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Olin Lathrop wrote:

> Selectively applying the rules is particularly wrong when James himself
> doesn't adhere to them.  

The main rule is in a way unwritten, and it is "don't create trouble". It's
easy not to create trouble, and if you started to do so, it's easy to step
back, say "sorry" once you did create a bit of trouble and get on with
life.

The problem is not some little rule about what's allowed or not, it's the
big picture of getting along. Rolf's post explains that very well. Or Jinx,
who posts a lot and to my knowledge never even once has missed the tone.
Just watch the people who know how to do it and try to learn. Isn't that
what you preach?

> ... or whether he will now put himself on moderation.  

The thing is, he probably has put himself on auto-moderation. Which is what
most here do when they feel that they are about to write something
insulting.

Gerhard

2008\06\03@084339 by Jinx

face picon face
> Or Jinx, who posts a lot and to my knowledge never even once
> has missed the tone.

Thank you Gerhard, I appreciate the compliment

2008\06\03@091644 by Jake Anderson

flavicon
face
Olin Lathrop wrote:
> Jinx wrote:
>  
>>> Olin is not responsible for other people's reactions
>>>      
>> Of course he is. Everybody is. That's what communication
>> is all about. If you stopped to ask directions and was told
>> "Don't be lazy. Go and buy a map, it's all in there, stupid",
>> would you feel just ever so slightly pissed off ?
>>    
>
> How you feel is irrelevant, it's what you DO about it that matters.  You'd
> have no right, for example, to run the person over with your car, pull out a
> gun and shoot him, or yell at him at the top of your lungs.  And if you did
> do any of those, you can't blame it on the person that refused to help.
>
>  
That's the thing, how I feel is relevant *To Me*, and since I have an
equal say in what goes on as you do, that makes it important to you/
Perhaps if you understood that other people have feelings you would
understand why you are the only person who is having difficulty
participating in this community in a manner regarded as "civil" by the
other list members.

If you want to join in you have to play by the rules, and the first rule
is don't upset other people overly much.
If you get warned/kicked/banned/whatever that is an indication that you
have exceeded the "overly much" portion.

Heck its like the FCC rules or something.
The device must accept some level of harmful radiation without malfunction.
The device may not emit harmful radiation over a certain level.

As to what those levels are, well you tries it and sees, 99.9% of the
list seems to have basically no problem.
(and I calculated that 99.9% btw, its not just a number, Is that enough
for you to see that you are the odd one out, not everybody else?)

There is a double standard, anybody else would just get banned, you are
being included at the expense of admin time and effort, that is a rare
thing, you should be thanking them for the effort they go to on your part.

Oh one last thing. The internet isn't a democracy, if it was you would
be banned ages ago and you would get re-banned each time you posted
again, I have been in enough voting type online situations to know how
that works, you don't make "friends and allies" of the general public
and in the political game that follows that's what you need.  "King"
James does an admirable job of keeping the peace amongst the serfs
without any of the power tripping usually associated with a position of
power, and if you don't like it your welcome to leave.

2008\06\03@092744 by Jake Anderson

flavicon
face
Olin Lathrop wrote:
> David VanHorn wrote:
>  
>> I think you would have been fine without the "dirtbag".
>>    
>
> But also fine with it according to the rules.  It was just a mildly humerous
> way to emphasize the point.  I wasn't saying the OP was a dirtbag, only that
> the information he'd given suggested it as a possibility that others would
> have to consider before granting his request.
>  
It didn't sound in any way humorous to me. It sounded like a pretty
personal attack. Which may well have been justified, and worded
differently could have been harsher in terms of effect without causing a
problem.
> However all this is aside from the main point, which is that the rules are
> being applied selectively.  I'm quite sure that if anyone else had posted
> that reply nothing would have come of it.
>  
Because they don't have a history of pissing people off for their
personal enjoyment. (that's how it looks to me anyway)
> Selectively applying the rules is particularly wrong when James himself
> doesn't adhere to them.  I'm still waiting for James to tell us whether his
> last outburst indicated a relaxing of the rules or whether he will now put
> himself on moderation.  I doubt anyone here would disagree that if I had
> said about anyone what he said about me, that would trigger moderation or
> booting me off the list completely.
>  
James is king, its his list, deal with it or leave.
It is the ultimate application of anarchy, he has the power.

With regards you getting moderated etc, I have in the past sworn
(dropped the F-Bomb) on the list and just received a (very stern and
final) warning for it. I like to think its because I am generally a nice
guy and James is a forgiving person.
You can't expect to be trusted totally when you have broken that trust
every time it has been offered in the past.

If you wanted to be taken off moderation, rather than using force and
being confrontational. You probably could have gotten what you wanted by
writing an open letter to the list (or even just James), apologise for
saying things in the past that have upset people, that you have learnt
from this and would like to try the list again with the training wheels off.

2008\06\03@094501 by olin piclist

face picon face
Gerhard Fiedler wrote:
> The main rule is in a way unwritten, and it is "don't create
> trouble".

Warning other people that they may be aiding a crime isn't starting trouble.
Again, do you really think that if anyone else had said the same thing it
would have even evoked a comment from the admins, let alone putting the
poster on moderation?  Even according to James' standards, I've written one
objectionable post in 8 months, yet my posts are still being censored.

This whole moderation thing is totally the wrong way to go about enforcing
rules on the list.  James has made a number of tactical errors.  First he
let the tone get out of hand (from his point of view) years ago.  He would
occasionally send someone a private message with some wussy admonition, but
since he never did anything they were irrelevant.  He was too PC to take
public and decisive action.  Then he eventually flipped around and
overreacted the other way and now uses the half-in half-out censorship
mechanism instead of again taking decisive action.

If I was running the list, I'd immediately suspend someone as soon as they
did something that I thought broke the spirit of the rules.  I wouldn't
allow people to weasel around arguing about the letter of the law.  The
suspension would be done publicly so that everyone else can see what the
enforcement guidelines are, and that action was taken.  A typical suspension
would last for a week, maybe a month for really serious cases.

The point is no long term harm is done to anyone, but the rules are clearly,
effectively, and decisively enforced.  If you never let it start, it doesn't
get out of hand.  Since some of this is a judgement call, and understanding
that everyone's judgement is different (although only mine would count), the
time-limited suspension mitigates damage from errors and inevitable
inconsitancies due to my current mood or whatever.  In other words, I will
make mistakes, but the fallout of any errors is finite.  If you don't like
it, you shouldn't have been that close to the line where the judgement could
have gone either way.  In any case, in a week it's over and we can all put
it behind us.

Censorship is just wrong, and should never be a acceptable tool.  It's a
half-in half-out weasel approach that lets the admins feel they're not being
too hard, but also lets them feel it's OK to apply indefinitely.  Deleting
someone is also bad for the same reason.  Since deleting is permanent, or at
least there is no definite stated end, the severity is essentially unknown.
This causes people to speak up and we get into these long discussions about
list policy that James hates.  I actually don't blame him for not liking
them, but they are because of his own actions.  Suspending someone for a
week sends a strong message, but it's finite so they can get over it.  You
can't "get over" something indefinite.  People would feel less inclined to
complain about something clear and finite.

I have suggested all this to James before, but he doesn't want to do it that
way.  It would be less work and more effective, so I don't understand why.

> The thing is, he probably has put himself on auto-moderation.

Then how do you explain the message that had no point other than to be a
deliberate insult to me?  He would have been all over me if I'd done
something half as bad.  Exempting yourself from your own rules is very bad
leadership style.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\06\03@101247 by olin piclist

face picon face
Jake Anderson wrote:
>> However all this is aside from the main point, which is that the
>> rules are being applied selectively.  I'm quite sure that if anyone
>> else had posted that reply nothing would have come of it.
>
> Because they don't have a history of pissing people off for their
> personal enjoyment. (that's how it looks to me anyway)

This is where the logic fails.  If the purpose is to keep order, then a
message is either offensive or it isn't.  If you are judging the message by
what that person may have written months ago, then you're just on a
vendetta.  If so, you don't belong in a position of authority.

> If you wanted to be taken off moderation, rather than using force and
> being confrontational. You probably could have gotten what you wanted
> by writing an open letter to the list (or even just James), apologise
> for
> saying things in the past that have upset people, that you have learnt
> from this and would like to try the list again with the training
> wheels off.

I doubt that would work.  Past history has shown that whenever I agree to
tone it down, James changes his threshold to ensure he has a excuse to do
something to me.  James and I have fundamental disagreements about what is
acceptable on the list, so eventually I'll say something he doesn't like.
If you look back, you can see this is actually quite rare.  The vast
majority of my messages (when I wasn't on moderation) have been adding
content to the list.  Once every few 100 messages I may say something that
wasn't PC enough for James.  He then deals with it poorly, which sometimes
causes a ruckus, then he blames the ruckus on me.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\06\03@105218 by David VanHorn

picon face
You know, years ago, I was rather upset at how the moderator of the
AVR discussion list was treating me, and several other people.  I
started up my own list.   That list is now "avr-chat" on yahoo, has
thousands of members, and is doing quite well.

Perhaps Olin, you shoud start your own list?

2008\06\03@140222 by Cedric Chang

flavicon
face
Jake, you are stating opinions as facts.  Not nice.
cc


On Jun 3, 2008, at 7:16 AM, Jake Anderson wrote:

{Quote hidden}

2008\06\03@141241 by James Newton

face picon face
-----Original Message-----
Jake Anderson Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 06:16
<SNIP>
>"King" James does an admirable job of keeping the peace amongst the serfs
> without any of the power tripping usually associated with a position of
power...

I'm not sure I can honestly agree with that. I'm human. I have some tiny
power, along with the other admins, on this list and I'm sure I've abused it
one time or another.

But I have this funny theory about governments: They are all democracies.
The ones that aren't democracies are democracies where the ruler has
abdicated.

And that is a good lead in to the vote I think we are ready to take:

RemoveMEjamesnewtonspam_OUTspamKILLspampiclist.com&subject=OLIN_Moderated> RemoveMEjamesnewtonTakeThisOuTspamspampiclist.com&subject=OLIN_UnModerated

One vote per member please. I will tally the results after a week, and
present only the totals.

And I will, of course, follow the result.

2008\06\03@144541 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Olin Lathrop wrote:

> Gerhard Fiedler wrote:
>> The main rule is in a way unwritten, and it is "don't create
>> trouble".
>
> Warning other people that they may be aiding a crime isn't starting
> trouble.

No, but referring to a dirtbag without need is. I really need to refer you
to Rolf's post for a good analysis of what's going on in such lists and to
the collection of Jinx's posts for a good example of how to post a lot
without creating trouble. (There are many others that could serve, I'm just
staying with one good example for the sake of simplicity.)

If you really want to participate without being moderated, studying both
seems to be the way to get there. Complaining doesn't seem to be very
effective in reaching this goal, whereas trying to learn from people who
manage to post without creating any trouble seems to be much more
effective.

> Again, do you really think that if anyone else had said the same thing it
> would have even evoked a comment from the admins, let alone putting the
> poster on moderation?  

Yes. Not the one thing, but the same all-around history. I think somebody
else without your depth of knowledge and your willingness to share it
wouldn't even have been offered the possibility to come back on moderation.

> Even according to James' standards, I've written one objectionable post
> in 8 months, yet my posts are still being censored.

That's the story about the history. You simply have lost trust; it's now
taking a bit longer to get it again. That's how things go with people in
general.

> This whole moderation thing is totally the wrong way to go about enforcing
> rules on the list.  

May be or may not be. It's James's choice -- take it or leave it.

> Then he eventually flipped around and overreacted the other way and now
> uses the half-in half-out censorship mechanism instead of again taking
> decisive action.

I think the admins take enough action to keep the list a good place where
many people like to "hang out". That's the reason you want to come back, so
it seems they are doing something right, or else you simply wouldn't
bother. Just admit this, try to fit in (I trust you are capable of doing
this once you realize that you want it), and I'm sure eventually you'll get
off moderation.

> If I was running the list, I'd immediately suspend someone as soon as
> they did something that I thought broke the spirit of the rules.  

Maybe that's the reason (one of them) why you don't run a list... It's not
trivial to run a list that has thousand subscribers in a way that suits
them all. This list suits a lot of people enough to be here for a long
time... anything but easy.

You're free to try it out any time... it's easy to start a list. I'm sure
you could announce it here, so that everybody who's interested can sign up.

> Censorship is just wrong, and should never be a acceptable tool.  It's a
> half-in half-out weasel approach that lets the admins feel they're not
> being too hard, but also lets them feel it's OK to apply indefinitely.  

"Indefinitely" is probably in this case "until you are trusted again" --
which is largely in your hands, the way I think this works.

>> The thing is, he probably has put himself on auto-moderation.
>
> Then how do you explain the message that had no point other than to be a
> deliberate insult to me?  

I meant he put himself on auto-moderation after sending that message.

> Exempting yourself from your own rules is very bad leadership style.

And I'm sure he knows that, and that's why he's put himself on
auto-moderation (IMO of course; I'm not him).

We know that even though he does a pretty good job as admin (even you want
to come back!) he's not infallible, so I don't get all upset about him
falling out of line about as much as I or any other average member does.
The job as admin is not to be perfect, but to keep the peace. Which works
quite well with 99.9% of the list members (as Jake has calculated :)

Gerhard

2008\06\03@151348 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> And that is a good lead in to the vote I think we are ready to take:
>
> EraseMEjamesnewtonspamspamspamBeGonepiclist.com&subject=OLIN_Moderated> > RemoveMEjamesnewtonKILLspamspampiclist.com&subject=OLIN_UnModerated

----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
<jamesnewtonSTOPspamspamspam_OUTpiclist.com>

--

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

2008\06\03@163756 by Rolf

face picon face
Hi James, all.

I think, (and I'll keep it brief), that there should be a third option....

unmoderate Olin and then treat him like everyone else (just like he has
wanted all along), so that if (when) he insults or belittles he gets
booted again and has to go through the moderation cool-off period all
over again.

I have been booted from piclist before, and the process for me was
clear, simple, and effective. Banned outright for a period after which
you can, if you want, sign back up, but be subject to a moderated period
for 'a while'.

I think such an option for Onlin would be what would be applied to
'anyone'. The expectation is that behaviour/actions that led to his
banning would cease.

In other words, I think that if Olin wants to be treated like everyone
else he needs to behave like everyone else. I am all for giving him
every opportunity to mend bridges.

On the other hand, I don't believe the status quo is the right solution
either. I don't believe he should be permanently moderated, and at the
same time, I don't believe I want to 'sanction' his behaviour by
'voting' to unmoderate without conditions.

There needs to be a 'Unmoderate for now but then enforce the same
standards that you apply to everyone else'. It is up to Olin then to
'earn' his subscription just like everyone else who has managed just fine.

The blade cuts both ways... if he wants to be treated like anyone else,
he has to behave like everyone else.

Can you make an option OLIN_LetHimTryAgain   ???

Rolf

James Newton wrote:
> {Original Message removed}

2008\06\03@170929 by Cedric Chang

flavicon
face
>
>
> We know that even though he does a pretty good job as admin (even  
> you want
> to come back!) he's not infallible, so I don't get all upset about him
> falling out of line about as much as I or any other average member  
> does.
> The job as admin is not to be perfect, but to keep the peace. Which  
> works
> quite well with 99.9% of the list members (as Jake has calculated :)

That 99.9% is not believable.  What did you do, compare all the list  
members who ever existed versus those who complained ?  Try comparing  
list members who post versus those who complain.  The percentage is  
more like 80% satisfied.
cc

> Gerhard
>
>

2008\06\03@171104 by James Newton

face picon face
It's just the spam filter... I still got the message.

--
James.

-----Original Message-----
From: spamBeGonepiclist-bouncesSTOPspamspamEraseMEmit.edu [KILLspampiclist-bouncesspamBeGonespammit.edu] On Behalf Of
Wouter van Ooijen
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 12:14
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: [ADMIN]: Question about member

> And that is a good lead in to the vote I think we are ready to take:
>
> EraseMEjamesnewtonspamEraseMEpiclist.com&subject=OLIN_Moderated> > @spam@jamesnewton@spam@spamspam_OUTpiclist.com&subject=OLIN_UnModerated

----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
<spamBeGonejamesnewtonspamKILLspampiclist.com>

--

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

2008\06\03@183647 by olin piclist

face picon face
Rolf wrote:
> unmoderate Olin and then treat him like everyone else (just like he
> has wanted all along), so that if (when) he insults or belittles he
> gets
> booted again and has to go through the moderation cool-off period all
> over again.
>
> I have been booted from piclist before, and the process for me was
> clear, simple, and effective. Banned outright for a period after which
> you can, if you want, sign back up, but be subject to a moderated
> period
> for 'a while'.

I agree with this except the "for a while" part.  That gets back into the
gray area that is completely up to the beholder that we have now.  Actually
I think censorship is never good.  Make the banning period a month instead
of a week if you want to, but there should never be sensoring and there has
to be a known finite resolution.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\06\03@193448 by Jake Anderson

flavicon
face
Cedric Chang wrote:
>> We know that even though he does a pretty good job as admin (even  
>> you want
>> to come back!) he's not infallible, so I don't get all upset about him
>> falling out of line about as much as I or any other average member  
>> does.
>> The job as admin is not to be perfect, but to keep the peace. Which  
>> works
>> quite well with 99.9% of the list members (as Jake has calculated :)
>>    
>
> That 99.9% is not believable.  What did you do, compare all the list  
> members who ever existed versus those who complained ?  Try comparing  
> list members who post versus those who complain.  The percentage is  
> more like 80% satisfied.
> cc
>
>  
>> Gerhard
>>    
The list has about 2000 members?
Russell is the only other person who has caused this much controversy,
2/2000 = 99.9%
Russell also modified his behaviour (perhaps "just enough") and all is
well now.
(it helps that he wasn't calling people names)

2008\06\03@223312 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Cedric Chang wrote:

>> We know that even though he does a pretty good job as admin (even you
>> want to come back!) he's not infallible, so I don't get all upset about
>> him falling out of line about as much as I or any other average member
>> does. The job as admin is not to be perfect, but to keep the peace.
>> Which works quite well with 99.9% of the list members (as Jake has
>> calculated :)
>
> That 99.9% is not believable.  What did you do,

As I said, I didn't do anything, Jake said he did.

> compare all the list members who ever existed versus those who complained
> ?  Try comparing list members who post versus those who complain.  The
> percentage is more like 80% satisfied.

I take it that someone who is on this list for more than a few months is ok
with how it is run. The ones who are here for that long and are not
satisfied don't count for me -- their behavior is too contradictory to be
counted for anything :)

Given that there are more than 1000 members who are on the list for more
than a few months (I think), 99.9% doesn't sound too far off.

Gerhard

2008\06\03@223843 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Olin Lathrop wrote:

> I agree with this except the "for a while" part.  That gets back into the
> gray area that is completely up to the beholder that we have now.  

This is all by definition a grey area; this is worse than RF layout :)

> Actually I think censorship is never good.  

Right. It's up to every individual poster to post so that censorship
doesn't happen. Just use the safety margin that you use in your electronics
designs for your post design, and all will be well and you won't have to
even think about censorship.

> ... and there has to be a known finite resolution.

Life of individuals is finite, so all resolutions are in the end finite.
Putting someone on moderation "for life" is by definition finite.

Gerhard

2008\06\03@234252 by Cedric Chang

flavicon
face
{Quote hidden}

I thinks your statistics stinks.... highly questionable.
Lies, damn lies and statistics.
- Mark Twain
cc

2008\06\04@043142 by Jinx

face picon face
> I thinks your statistics stinks.... highly questionable.
> Lies, damn lies and statistics.
> - Mark Twain
> cc

As opined previously -

"you are stating opinions as facts.  Not nice"

Please - either prove "80% are dissatisfied with the list admin",
tone down your language, or say Hello to Mr Message Rules

You could always make voluminous and/or informative posts
to [PIC] of course


2008\06\04@055330 by Jake Anderson

flavicon
face

>> The list has about 2000 members?
>> Russell is the only other person who has caused this much controversy,
>> 2/2000 = 99.9%
>> Russell also modified his behaviour (perhaps "just enough") and all is
>> well now.
>> (it helps that he wasn't calling people names)
>>    
>
> I thinks your statistics stinks.... highly questionable.
> Lies, damn lies and statistics.
> - Mark Twain
> cc
>
>  
If there is an error in my maths I'm happy to hear it.
I've been on the list since about 2000 as far as I'm aware (probably a
bit before that) and olin has been variously kicked banned and moderated
pretty consistantly since then (again as far as i recall)

Lets add margin in Olins favour.
Lets say my numbers are out by a factor of 10.
There are 10 people on the list who have raging debates over if they
should be allowed to insult people or not.
There are only 1000 people on the list.

That gives you 99% of people who don't have these problems.

Olin is still an outlier, but perhaps only 2SD rather than 5. (the last
bit is a guess, and assuming a gaussian distribution towards trollish
behaviour is probably very wrong.

2008\06\04@065138 by Forrest W Christian

flavicon
face
I've been setting back not commenting on this..  but I think it's time
for me to throw my hat in the ring so to speak.

Hopefully, I'll have my usual effect of killing off any thread when I
finally speak up.   :)

I've been posting on various lists and/or newsgroups for something like
15 years now.   Actually probably over 15 years now, since I have copies
of emails back to 1992 or so.   What is going on here is definately
nothing new.

On every list you see the "regulars".  If you look back through the last
few months of this list, you'll be able to figure out who they are...
Wouter, Jinx, Russell, and yes, Olin.  Pretty much these people follow
the list every day and contribute.   They become like family.  They may
not like each other very well, but they know each other's temperments
and get along ok.  All the regulars know that Olin can be abrasive.
They know all about Russell, and everyone else... and learn to
understand that when you get your head bit off by Olin it's not
personal, it's just the way he is.  Just like a family, sometimes you'll
find two members which just rub each other the wrong way, and a flame
war will erupt... aka, Olin is abrasive, someone else can't take it, and
then the flames come out.   Sometimes the list admins have to send
everyone to their corners and tell people to settle down, but in all the
end result is typically that the list runs just like it did before,
hopefully without any loss of regulars.

That said, these regulars make the list.  If you have the right
regulars, who have a clue, then the list will remain healthy since
people understand that they can ask a question and get a reasonable
answer from others who may have experienced the same thing.

Unlike a family though, there's always someone new coming into the list.
 They don't know that Olin is just abrasive in some cases.  They don't
know what is expected.   Many of these people will become regulars and
add their own wealth of knowledge to the list, even though they may be
totally clueless about PIC's and parts of EE and the like.   For them a
question like "I need to use a PIC to turn a LED on and off" or "What do
I need to do to make A1 work right" is not unreasonable.  Yes it's
stupid.  Yes, it could be found in the datasheet.  But Olin pissing them
off because of his abrupt answers is not healthy to the list.   We need
them to survive long enough to grow thick enough skin to be able to
understand that Olin is abrasive and if he makes you feel like crawling
in a hole when you do something stupid, well that is just Olin.
Unfortunately, many poster's first experience asking a question here is
met with just this type of response... regardless of whether it comes
from Olin or someone else.  And as a result, we loose their unique
perspective and knowledge forever.

I have noted on numerous lists that there are usually only a couple of
people who stir things up in this way.  On this list, it's pretty much
Olin and Russell.  I don't think they *try* to stir things up, but they
succeed anyways.  Look at the length of this thread.  Look at the
discussion a few months ago about adding tags (which I still think is a
good idea) after the last Russell incident.

For the Admins it's a hard thing...  you don't want to kick the Olin's
and Russell's off the list - after all they do contribute and provide
significant help.  On the other hand, you want the list to grow and
succeed, for which you need the existing members to be on their best
behavior toward the new members, at least until they grow that thick skin.

I think my take is that everyone just needs to take a step back and look
at this from the overall perspective and maybe quit bickering on the
list a bit.   I'd like to see some tags added so that Russell's
"interesting links" were tagged accordingly.  Not saying that they're
bad, just that I don't think they belong in [EE].  But regardless, I
think the list is going pretty well.  Yes, I'd like to see Olin
unmoderated, but only if he is actually willing to moderate his behavior
towards the newcomers so we don't loose them.  But in any case,
hopefully we can all just stop and think about what we are saying before
we say it.

-forrest

2008\06\04@075637 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
Forrest W Christian wrote:

> I've been setting back not commenting on this..  but I think it's time
> for me to throw my hat in the ring so to speak.

Dito...

Regarding mail-lists, I think that the moderators always
have the final word on everything regarding the list.
It's not up to anyone to complain on the moderators, just
"vote with the feets", that is, leave the list if you
don't feel comfortable with it.

Do I have a personal opinion on the current
"Olin-issues"? Yes I do, but it's not *my* list, so... :-)

Finaly, I've had very successfull personal business
with Olin regarding his products. Always very responsive,
correct and delivering good service. But that was off-list,
which seems to be in some parallell universe, or something...

And, FWIW, with James also during several years... :-)


Jan-Erik
Sweden.


2008\06\04@120149 by M. Adam Davis

face picon face
On 6/3/08, Rolf <.....learrspam_OUTspamrogers.com> wrote:
> I am all for giving him every opportunity to mend bridges.

You let a person burn down only so many bridges before you get tired
of building bridges.  Further, Olin does not appear to be interested
in apologizing for percieved insults or changing his behavior
significantly - he DOESN'T mend those bridges - if they are to be
repaired some other member (usually an admin) has to email the
offended person and say, "WE are sorry for Olin.  That's the way he
is, and we've done X, Y, and Z in response to the insult.  Please
reconsider unsubscribbling."

I don't see a problem with, "After 4 repeat offenses you're on
permanent moderation.  If you want off permanent moderation, then send
an email detailing EXACTLY what you will change in order to avoid
future offenses.  The admins will determine if those changes would
have prevented all previous offenses and reasonably prevent future
offenses.  If so you'll be taken off permanent moderation."

This doesn't even require an apology, or acknowledgement that what
they did was wrong.  It merely requires that they agree to, in the
future, follow the rules.

-Adam

--
Save Money * Save Oil * Save Lives * Save the Planet
http://www.driveslowly.org

2008\06\04@155331 by Cedric Chang

flavicon
face
>
> On Jun 4, 2008, at 2:31 AM, Jinx wrote:
>
>> I thinks your statistics stinks.... highly questionable.
>> Lies, damn lies and statistics.
>> - Mark Twain
>> cc
>
> As opined previously -
>
> "you are stating opinions as facts.  Not nice"
>
> Please - either prove "80% are dissatisfied with the list admin",
> tone down your language, or say Hello to Mr Message Rules
>
> You could always make voluminous and/or informative posts
> to [PIC] of course

1)   I said " 80% were satisfied" .  I did make a typo.  I meant to  
include the word 'probably' as my statistic is as made up as yours.
2)   I contribute to [EE] when I think I can add anything original.  
Is it your intention to say you are a high status poster and that  
therefore your opinion has more "gravitas" ?  Probably true if a vote  
is held.   Which is why I think democracy is the second best  
political system in the world.
3)   I wonder what is worse..... bad language or bad content.    
Actually, I go with bad content being worse.
4)   there is logic and there is emotion.   Guess which one I prefer.
cc
--

2008\06\04@191832 by Jinx

face picon face

> 2)   I contribute to [EE] when I think I can add anything original.  
> Is it your intention to say you are a high status poster and that  
> therefore your opinion has more "gravitas" ?

No, not at all. I didn't intend what I said to sound as snotty as it
may have looked. One frequent complaint has been that the S/N
ratio is rather low sometimes. If you ignore [OT] I don't think it's
too bad, but it could always be better. Even the Microchip forums
lapse from time to time and they're *supposed* to be quite rigidly
moderated

2008\06\04@213431 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
> 4)   there is logic and there is emotion.   Guess which
> one I prefer.


Emotion?

:-) - BUT it's easy for one to masquerade more effectively
as the other when it's oneself doing the emoting.


       R

2008\06\04@213431 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
> ... (usually an admin) ...

Ya reckon?
:-).
(too) Long history of background running after the walking
and crawling wounded.
Some successful. Some not.
Hopefully several do it and they get a feeling of being
supported in a dark hour.



   Russell

2008\06\04@225755 by Cedric Chang

flavicon
face
Wahhhhhhhhh ! ! !
cc
> On Jun 4, 2008, at 7:33 PM, Apptech wrote:
>
>> 4)   there is logic and there is emotion.   Guess which
>> one I prefer.
>
>
> Emotion?
>
> :-) - BUT it's easy for one to masquerade more effectively
> as the other when it's oneself doing the emoting.
>
>
>         R
>
> --

2008\06\05@000424 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
>>> 4)   there is logic and there is emotion.   Guess which
>>> one I prefer.

>> Emotion?

>> :-) - BUT it's easy for one to masquerade more
>> effectively
>> as the other when it's oneself doing the emoting.

> Wahhhhhhhhh ! ! !

That's logical :-)


   R

2008\06\05@100407 by Jake Anderson

flavicon
face
Jinx wrote:
>> 2)   I contribute to [EE] when I think I can add anything original.  
>> Is it your intention to say you are a high status poster and that  
>> therefore your opinion has more "gravitas" ?
>>    
>
> No, not at all. I didn't intend what I said to sound as snotty as it
> may have looked. One frequent complaint has been that the S/N
> ratio is rather low sometimes. If you ignore [OT] I don't think it's
> too bad, but it could always be better. Even the Microchip forums
> lapse from time to time and they're *supposed* to be quite rigidly
> moderated
>
>  
Personally i like the OT and EE stuff, probably more than PIC.
I am somewhat out of the PIC game at the moment, and if i get back into
micro's it will probably be with AVR's
The OT and EE stuff however is generally interesting enough in a geeky
sort of way to keep subscribed to the list (perhaps excepting global
warming debates ;-P, debate how to fix it sure, but not if it exists.
(Lets assume it does and hope it doesn't))

2008\06\05@105950 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face

> The OT and EE stuff however is generally interesting
> enough in a geeky
> sort of way to keep subscribed to the list (perhaps
> excepting global
> warming debates ;-P, debate how to fix it sure, but not if
> it exists.
> (Lets assume it does and hope it doesn't))

I'll reply to that on OT. It needs a comment, alas.


       R

2008\06\05@223405 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
I initially found the various comparisons between myself and
Olin amusing.
Less so with time.
I've adjusted my Christmas card list accordingly.

       R

:-)


2008\06\05@235809 by William \Chops\ Westfield

face picon face
Need data; while Olin has been in "moderated" mode:

1) What is the average delay introduced by the moderation?
2) How often has a message actually been rejected?

BillW

2008\06\06@064233 by olin piclist

face picon face
William Chops" Westfield" wrote:
> Need data; while Olin has been in "moderated" mode:
>
> 1) What is the average delay introduced by the moderation?

Average is probably a few hours.  It can be a couple of days, especially on
weekends.

> 2) How often has a message actually been rejected?

None that I am aware of since last October.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\06\06@081952 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
I note, purely as a statistical comment, and an excercise of
a degree of tongue in cheekery, that the present survey
suffers from severe design bias. This is hard to avoid and
it will serve its purpose well enough.

Those who favour Olin's inimitable style and have no
problems with a bit of argy bargy behind the bike sheds, or
in front, for those slow to grasp the survival requirements
of their new environment, then actually voting to return
Olin will be a reasonably certain action.

For the more milksopish who feel that clipping people around
the ears and booting them down the stairs a few times until
the lesson gells, or they leave for greener pastures, is a
non productive nand/nor desireable method of training, then
their empathy filters are liable to be similarly correlated
and many such a gentle soul is liable to not be keen to cast
the first stone, nor nth vote, against his fellow man, nor
Olin.

If I be right, and this be on me proved, we'll see a
majority vote for returning Olin, regardless of the actual
mean list sentiment.

I don't see any easy way out of this, so the evils of
democracy probably have to be allowed to reign supreme yet
again.

:-)

If we made the voting proportional, with weighting based on
year to date posting frequency, then I may be actually be
persuaded to vote. Otherwise ... .
:-)^2

I'd personally like to see Olin back on the list AND hewing
to the *spirit* of what the list owner and admins are trying
to achieve. One can hope.


       R


2008\06\06@083929 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Olin Lathrop wrote:

> William Chops" Westfield" wrote:
>> Need data; while Olin has been in "moderated" mode:
>>
>> 1) What is the average delay introduced by the moderation?
>
> Average is probably a few hours.  It can be a couple of days, especially on
> weekends.
>
>> 2) How often has a message actually been rejected?
>
> None that I am aware of since last October.

I don't see a problem to be solved here. A few hours delay is no problem at
all, and a couple of days on weekends isn't either; the traffic is often
low anyway and the conveyed content in almost all cases timeless. And if
none has been rejected, there isn't really any censoring going on (despite
the loud complaints about censorship).

Gerhard

2008\06\06@085235 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 8:39 PM, Gerhard Fiedler
<TakeThisOuTlists.....spamTakeThisOuTconnectionbrazil.com> wrote:
> Olin Lathrop wrote:
>
>> William Chops" Westfield" wrote:
>>> Need data; while Olin has been in "moderated" mode:
>>>
>>> 1) What is the average delay introduced by the moderation?
>>
>> Average is probably a few hours.  It can be a couple of days, especially on
>> weekends.
>>
>>> 2) How often has a message actually been rejected?
>>
>> None that I am aware of since last October.
>
> I don't see a problem to be solved here. A few hours delay is no problem at
> all, and a couple of days on weekends isn't either; the traffic is often
> low anyway and the conveyed content in almost all cases timeless. And if
> none has been rejected, there isn't really any censoring going on (despite
> the loud complaints about censorship).

I do not see a problem to be solved here either. But my conclusion
is different. Apparently Olin's messages are all ok. So why not
remove the moderation altogether? If he is against the rules
again, then the admins should have enough reasons to put him
on moderation again or even remove him altogether.

Xiaofan

2008\06\06@090009 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Fri, 2008-06-06 at 20:52 +0800, Xiaofan Chen wrote:
> I do not see a problem to be solved here either. But my conclusion
> is different. Apparently Olin's messages are all ok. So why not
> remove the moderation altogether?

Because the status quo is working.

> If he is against the rules
> again, then the admins should have enough reasons to put him
> on moderation again or even remove him altogether.

Removing Olin never worked as a long term solution.

Moderation has been the only thing we've tried that resulted in a long
term stable list.

TTYL

2008\06\06@091647 by olin piclist

face picon face
Apptech wrote:
> I note, purely as a statistical comment, and an excercise of
> a degree of tongue in cheekery, that the present survey
> suffers from severe design bias. This is hard to avoid and
> it will serve its purpose well enough.

I think James is doing this only because he has perceived a bias in the
responses so far in his favor.  He has never before taken heed of public
opinion in related matters, let alone put it to a vote and pledged to honor
the outcome.

I admit I had to chuckle a little bit when I saw James' message.  It is a
clever move.  If the vote goes his way, he can claim a mandate.  If it
doesn't, he doesn't really loose anything if you think about it.  He gets a
way out of this that saves face, and of course he can always turn censorship
back on the next message he doesn't deem PC enough.  In the end nothing
really gets fixed because the admins still have the tool of censorship.
It's a great smokescreen for not addressing the real questions and policy
changes.  Note that he's not even willing to discuss those.

James is going to do what he's going to do, and he is responsible for the
decision.  If he uses a public vote as his decision tool, that's his
business, but in the end it's still his decision.

I also don't think this is a good precedent for how to run a list.  While it
is a good idea to get public input, and then consider it seriously, holding
a binding vote starts you sliding down the slippery slope towards anarchy.

You can't have individual decisions made by the public.  That's why we have
representative democracies.  We select people to make the decisions for us,
but retain the right to select different ones next time if we feel they are
not performing well.  That provides enough feedback so that the decision
makers can't get too far from gross public sentiment while still giving them
the authority over the details.

The problem on this list is that there is no public input at all.  People
don't feel it's "their" list.  It is run by James and the other admins the
way they like, and they have made it quite clear in the past they don't give
a crap what anyone else thinks.  The best system would be something between
absolute in your face dictatorship and all decisions made by the public.
I'm not sure how to achieve that.  Ideally there would be people in charge
that would seriously consider input from active members and then make their
own decisions, but that's clearly not what we have now.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\06\06@092042 by Jake Anderson

flavicon
face
Apptech wrote:
> I initially found the various comparisons between myself and
> Olin amusing.
> Less so with time.
> I've adjusted my Christmas card list accordingly.
>
>         R
>
> :-)
>
>
>  
Cmon man its alike as yin and yang are alike

2008\06\06@092138 by olin piclist

face picon face
Gerhard Fiedler wrote:
> I don't see a problem to be solved here. A few hours delay is no
> problem at all, and a couple of days on weekends isn't either; the
> traffic is often
> low anyway and the conveyed content in almost all cases timeless. And
> if none has been rejected, there isn't really any censoring going on
> (despite the loud complaints about censorship).

Then you volunteer to be censored and see how you like it.

The delays can be annoying.  But the real issue is the concept of
censorship.  I refuse to add content to this list as long as what I say has
to be "approved" by a censor when most other people's posts don't.  If it
was done to you, you might have a different opinion.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\06\06@092347 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
> Removing Olin never worked as a long term solution.

yOU CAN CHECK HIM OUT ANY TIME YOU LIKE, BUT HE WILL NEVER
LEAVE .......woops Slock / Welcome to the hotel MITnia, ...

(It's a lovely place ...)


       R

> Moderation has been the only thing we've tried that
> resulted in a long  term stable list.

You call a list with ME on it stable ... ? :-)

2008\06\06@093458 by olin piclist

face picon face
Herbert Graf wrote:
> Because the status quo is working.

Again, for only a narrow view or "working".  The lack of content and good
technical discussions of previous years isn't something that jumps out at
you.  Look at the archives and count the number of PIC and EE posts a few
years back compared to today and I think you will find a significant
difference.  This correlates pretty well with the list becoming more and
more PC.

> Moderation has been the only thing we've tried that resulted in a long
> term stable list.

But this is a self-fullfilling statement since you won't try other
mechanisms that should also achieve the result and require less work on your
end.

And you're again missing the point if "stable" is the ultimate goal.  You're
looking at this from your narrow admin perspective but forgetting what this
list is really for.  The objective should be good and active discussions of
PIC related topics.  Of course some amount of stability is required to
achieve that, but the stability isn't the end goal.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\06\06@101619 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Sat, 2008-06-07 at 01:23 +1200, Apptech wrote:
> > Moderation has been the only thing we've tried that
> > resulted in a long  term stable list.
>
> You call a list with ME on it stable ... ? :-)

Mostly yes, since while I often don't personally agree with your
viewpoints or contributions to the list, you are willing to modify how
you do things that don't end up causing flame wars.

As an admin, my primary concern is to "keep the peace". We are all very
different people, and there are times when a disagreement forms. Since
you are so active on this list it makes sense from a pure statistical
perspective that you'll also contribute to a few more of the
disagreements then the average poster.

The difference is you don't inflame for the sake of inflaming, and when
you are called out as being wrong, you acknowledge it and move on.

Olin OTOH has NEVER acknowledged that his behaviour can inflame, and has
never truly made any effort to mitigate his reactions to prevent flame
wars.

To attack someone for the sake of pure enjoyment of the attacker is
something I will NEVER tolerate on this list.

TTYL

2008\06\06@102500 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Fri, 2008-06-06 at 09:37 -0400, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> Herbert Graf wrote:
> > Because the status quo is working.
>
> Again, for only a narrow view or "working".  The lack of content and good
> technical discussions of previous years isn't something that jumps out at
> you.  Look at the archives and count the number of PIC and EE posts a few
> years back compared to today and I think you will find a significant
> difference.  This correlates pretty well with the list becoming more and
> more PC.

So? Olin, if the list didn't have worthwhile content, WHY do we still
have so many members? Yes, the posts aren't as "PIC" related as they
used to be, but SO WHAT? As long as the list is useful, and as long as
it maintains a PIC channel that's useful, I see nothing wrong.

Your logic doesn't track. If the content weren't here, noone else would
be.

> > Moderation has been the only thing we've tried that resulted in a long
> > term stable list.
>
> But this is a self-fullfilling statement since you won't try other
> mechanisms that should also achieve the result and require less work on your
> end.

Olin, we've TRIED OTHER MECHANISMS, they didn't work.

It is AMAZING that it's always US, or THE LIST that have to change. You
have NEVER acknowledged that perhaps a solution is for YOU to change as
well. Why is that?

> And you're again missing the point if "stable" is the ultimate goal.  You're
> looking at this from your narrow admin perspective but forgetting what this
> list is really for.  The objective should be good and active discussions of
> PIC related topics.  Of course some amount of stability is required to
> achieve that, but the stability isn't the end goal.

Taking off the Admin hat: Personally I find the list a wonderful
resource.

Yes, the amount of PIC material has dropped, but it's still there, so I
don't see a problem.

REMEMBER: The posters wanted a list that allowed other topics then PIC,
despite resistance (from people like me), that was done. I have to
admit, I was wrong to resist. While the list has diverged from "pure"
PIC topics, I think it's become even MORE useful in it's current form.

YOU may not like that, but people vote with their feet. We easily have
as many members as we did the past few years (perhaps more), and I
haven't seen any trend to indicate the list membership is dwindling.

Frankly Olin, if you don't like it, GO AWAY and form your own list. STOP
trying to change the list into something where you can assault people
for your own enjoyment.

TTYL

2008\06\06@103147 by olin piclist

face picon face
Herbert Graf wrote:
> and
> has never truly made any effort to mitigate his reactions to prevent
> flame wars.

This is not true.  I have toned things down from a few years ago, but you
keep making the standard more PC.  Do you really think asking someone "Does
mommy know you're playing with the 'puter again?" today would result in no
action as it did then?


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\06\06@110138 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face

On Fri, 2008-06-06 at 10:33 -0400, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> Herbert Graf wrote:
> > and
> > has never truly made any effort to mitigate his reactions to prevent
> > flame wars.
>
> This is not true.  I have toned things down from a few years ago, but you
> keep making the standard more PC.  Do you really think asking someone "Does
> mommy know you're playing with the 'puter again?" today would result in no
> action as it did then?

There is no denying it Olin: yes, we are more "sensitive" then in the
past.

The reason? We've learned. We've learned that in order to maintain a
civilness on the list, we've had to be more "sensitive" then in the
past. The funny thing is the almost everyone on the list has adapted
with very little fuss.

The evidence that we are doing things right is the fact that the list
has as many members as past years, and remains very active. If we as
admins were wrong with how we were running the list, people would leave,
and discussions would stop.

2008\06\06@110705 by olin piclist

face picon face
Herbert Graf wrote:
> So? Olin, if the list didn't have worthwhile content, WHY do we still
> have so many members?

People still hanging on isn't a good measure.  The amount of technical
content is the real measure.

> Yes, the posts aren't as "PIC" related as they used to be,

Exactly.

> but SO WHAT?  As long as the list is useful, and as long as
> it maintains a PIC channel that's useful, I see nothing wrong.

You should.  It shows that this list is not where people come to have good
discussions about embedded systems and PIC as they used to.  This list has
lost focus, and as a result many senior technical people don't participate
much anymore that did a few years ago.  Just because they haven't
unsubscribed doesn't mean they are actively participating.

> Your logic doesn't track. If the content weren't here, noone else
> would be.

It's not that they wouldn't necessarily "be here" anymore, but that they
wouldn't participate as much, which is exactly what is happening.

> Olin, we've TRIED OTHER MECHANISMS, they didn't work.

Not really.  You have never tried things I have suggested that I think would
both work AND be less work for you.

> Yes, the amount of PIC material has dropped, but it's still there, so
> I don't see a problem.

So it's only a problem when it drops to zero?  The fact that real PIC and EE
material has dropped should be of concern to you.

> REMEMBER: The posters wanted a list that allowed other topics then
> PIC, despite resistance (from people like me), that was done. I have
> to
> admit, I was wrong to resist. While the list has diverged from "pure"
> PIC topics, I think it's become even MORE useful in it's current form.

I disagree, and judging from the activity level others appear to disagree
too.  I think it has become less useful for its stated purpose.  If you're
looking for discussion about PICs and the electronics and embedded systems
related to them, this is not the place it once was.  Both the signal to
noise ratio and the activity on EE and PIC has dropped.

I don't remember whether I was for or against adding additional content at
the time, but in hindsight it was a mistake, at least in the way it was
done.

> YOU may not like that, but people vote with their feet.

And they have, so obviously I'm not the only one.  Again, I think you are
making the mistake of counting members instead of activitiy.  As people
slowly get dissollusioned with the list, they are likely to just contribute
less instead of unsubscribing outright.

> Frankly Olin, if you don't like it, GO AWAY and form your own list.

If you can't tolerate a civil discussion about list policies, then it's you
that should go away.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\06\06@114241 by Apptech
face
flavicon
face
> Apptech wrote:
>> I initially found the various comparisons between myself
>> and
>> Olin amusing.
>> Less so with time.
>> I've adjusted my Christmas card list accordingly.
>>
>>         R
>>
>> :-)
>>
>>
>>
> Cmon man its alike as yin and yang are alike


Ah. That's what YOU think.
Noisy rude people are liable to be ADDED to my Christmas
card list!
Then they're in trouble :-)


       R

2008\06\06@114303 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
It's good to see (I think) that some things never change.
Bite the hand that feeds, or offers to feed, before it
feeds, may yet be proven to be a valid prisoner's dilemma
strategy, it seems.

{Quote hidden}

US Presdiential hopefuls, please note.

> The problem on this list is that there is no public input
> at all.

?

My short response to thelong input:

I think (IMHOOC) that most are happy enough with the system.







> People don't feel it's "their" list.

I do.
Can't you tell :-).
Mean perhaps. But, honestly (IMHOOC) I think most are happy
enough with it being theris AND after all it does "belong"
very literally to James.

Most complaints about ownership, such as above, seem
(IMHOOC) to be expressions of a desire to own it oneself to
whatever extent is necessary for one's purpose.

> It is run by James and the other admins the
> way they like, and they have made it quite clear in the
> past they don't give
> a crap what anyone else thinks.

IMHOOC they seem rather to have said that they don't HAVE to
care what anyone else thinks. They may well care (and seem
to) but when push comes to shove-off theya ct s if it's a
democratically elected representation. Even though they are
not democratically elected.

> The best system would be something between
> absolute in your face dictatorship and all decisions made
> by the public.
> I'm not sure how to achieve that.  Ideally there would be
> people in charge
> that would seriously consider input from active members
> and then make their
> own decisions,

I agree that that sounds like a good straw man but,

> but that's clearly not what we have now.

unlike you I gebnuinely think that that IS what we have got.
No intention to be opposite for effect etc.
I really think that what you describe as the ideal situation
is in the hearts and minds of the admin on a good day, and
on many bad days.
Being human they sometimes just decide to go out and kill
something, but overall they care.

It's most interesting that two people can see the status quo
so oppositely. I suppose that having a moderation barrier
imposed does tend to filter your perspective :-(. Check back
again whenever it is after James' worst fears are realised
and you are again free to roam the list untrammeled and see
if it looks different.



       Russell


2008\06\06@114836 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Fri, 2008-06-06 at 11:09 -0400, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> Herbert Graf wrote:
> > So? Olin, if the list didn't have worthwhile content, WHY do we still
> > have so many members?
>
> People still hanging on isn't a good measure.  

Why not? Stating an opinion as fact won't get very far with me.

> The amount of technical
> content is the real measure.

The technical content is here, it's just not the technical content YOU
think should be here.

> > but SO WHAT?  As long as the list is useful, and as long as
> > it maintains a PIC channel that's useful, I see nothing wrong.
>
> You should.  It shows that this list is not where people come to have good
> discussions about embedded systems and PIC as they used to.  This list has
> lost focus, and as a result many senior technical people don't participate
> much anymore that did a few years ago.  Just because they haven't
> unsubscribed doesn't mean they are actively participating.

The membership WANTED a broader list. We gave it to them. They seem to
like it. You don't. They seem to.

> > Your logic doesn't track. If the content weren't here, noone else
> > would be.
>
> It's not that they wouldn't necessarily "be here" anymore, but that they
> wouldn't participate as much, which is exactly what is happening.

Where is your evidence Olin?

List traffic has been pretty much as high as it's always been. The
topics have been much more varied, but that's what people want.

> > Yes, the amount of PIC material has dropped, but it's still there, so
> > I don't see a problem.
>
> So it's only a problem when it drops to zero?  The fact that real PIC and EE
> material has dropped should be of concern to you.

It's not. As long as the list remains a good place to get PIC/EE help
(which I believe it has since we still have some very interesting PIC
and EE discussions), it serves it's purpose.

{Quote hidden}

All true. Yet list traffic remains, list membership remains, where is
the problem?

The list has changed. You don't like that, I get that. Obviously, on the
whole, the membership doesn't have a problem with the "lost focus". If
they did, they wouldn't post anything anymore, and they'd leave. That
hasn't happened, meaning whatever your opinion of what the list is, the
membership still feels it's worth contributing to it.

> I don't remember whether I was for or against adding additional content at
> the time, but in hindsight it was a mistake, at least in the way it was
> done.

Hehe, I'm pretty sure that if James cured cancer, you'd still consider
his actions wrong.

> > YOU may not like that, but people vote with their feet.
>
> And they have, so obviously I'm not the only one.  Again, I think you are
> making the mistake of counting members instead of activitiy.  As people
> slowly get dissollusioned with the list, they are likely to just contribute
> less instead of unsubscribing outright.

The activity is there. It's not the kind of activity YOU want, too bad.

> > Frankly Olin, if you don't like it, GO AWAY and form your own list.
>
> If you can't tolerate a civil discussion about list policies, then it's you
> that should go away.

Hehe, you are very formulaic in your methods of trying to get what you
want. It's tiring to read, and frankly it shows me more and more about
what kind of person you really are.

I feel sorry for you.

TTYL

2008\06\06@134149 by John Chung

picon face
I personally feel that the PICLIST is a shared pool of resources. James
does a pretty decent job with the PICLIST. There are bound to be disagreement but we need to compromise.

John Chung


--- On Fri, 6/6/08, Olin Lathrop <TakeThisOuTolin_piclistKILLspamspamspamembedinc.com> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> --

2008\06\06@140454 by Enrico Schuerrer

picon face
-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: "Herbert Graf" <spamBeGonemailinglist4@spam@spamspam_OUTfarcite.net>
An: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <TakeThisOuTpiclistspamspammit.edu>
Gesendet: Freitag, 06. Juni 2008 16:24
Betreff: Re: [ADMIN]: Question about member


> On Fri, 2008-06-06 at 09:37 -0400, Olin Lathrop wrote:
[snipped]
> Frankly Olin, if you don't like it, GO AWAY and form your own list. STOP
> trying to change the list into something where you can assault people
> for your own enjoyment.

>From my point of view a very simple statement. It's always the inconvenient people who brought the mankind to new perspectives and knowledge - never the regulators and upholder of not defined standards.

Seemingly it's easier to try to throw a member out of a list than to help him to get more social competence...

My 2cts

regards from Vienna, Austria, Europe
Enrico

2008\06\06@141335 by David VanHorn

picon face
>> Frankly Olin, if you don't like it, GO AWAY and form your own list. STOP
>> trying to change the list into something where you can assault people
>> for your own enjoyment.
>
> >From my point of view a very simple statement. It's always the inconvenient people who brought the mankind to new perspectives and knowledge - never the regulators and upholder of not defined standards.


That's what I did with the original AVR list.  I walked and took most
of the membership with me.
The original list evaporated.

What say Olin?  "Olins-No-Bullshit-Piclist" on yahoo?

2008\06\06@143502 by James Newton

face picon face
We tried throwing Olin off the list. He just immediately re-subscribed using
a different email address. Repeatedly. We were spending so much time killing
all his subscriptions and blocking them from being re-subscribed that it
wasn't worth it.

It isn't worth it.

--
James.

{Original Message removed}

2008\06\06@143556 by James Newton

face picon face
Olin does not, EVER compromise. Or apologize. Ever.

Search the archives... prove me wrong.

--
James.

-----Original Message-----
From: piclist-bouncesEraseMEspammit.edu [RemoveMEpiclist-bouncesEraseMEspamspam_OUTmit.edu] On Behalf Of
John Chung
Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 10:41
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: [ADMIN]: Question about member

I personally feel that the PICLIST is a shared pool of resources. James
does a pretty decent job with the PICLIST. There are bound to be
disagreement but we need to compromise.

John Chung

2008\06\07@081519 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Olin Lathrop wrote:

> Gerhard Fiedler wrote:
>> I don't see a problem to be solved here. A few hours delay is no problem
>> at all, and a couple of days on weekends isn't either; the traffic is
>> often low anyway and the conveyed content in almost all cases timeless.
>> And if none has been rejected, there isn't really any censoring going
>> on (despite the loud complaints about censorship).
>
> Then you volunteer to be censored and see how you like it.

Well, by participating here (not any different from you) I do volunteer to
be censored. If I behaved like you, I'm rather sure I would be censored,
too. I just take it upon me to act within the bounds where this doesn't
happen.

Don't think that I never thought "what an idiot" when reading a message --
but I think I rarely if ever published that thought. This is probably how
the majority feels and acts, and it is how people get along here.

> The delays can be annoying.  

I can imagine.

> But the real issue is the concept of censorship.  

As I wrote before, I think it's somewhat obscene to compare this to actual
censorship, with tanks on the streets and the like. Give me a break... you
can write pretty much whatever you want in /many/ places, including this
list, just not in the tone you want. I don't see censorship here; it's more
like self-defense.

The real issue is (for me) whether you like it here or not. If you do, try
to fit in, if you don't, do something else.

> I refuse to add content to this list as long as what I say has to be
> "approved" by a censor when most other people's posts don't.  

I wrote this before: my opinion is "take it or leave it or do it
yourself"... meaning either fit in, or leave the list, or make your own
list. Nobody is asking you to add content; you either do so because you
want to participate or you don't. That's not meant for you specifically,
that's how I see it, and in a way life in general. When I'm that discontent
with a list as you seem to be with this one, I'm long gone. Life is too
short to spend it with things I don't like -- or pretend that I don't think
it's a good list, but still wanting to participate.

You seem to think it's a good list (worthwhile of your time), so why don't
you acknowledge that this is partly because of how it is run, accept the
rules, and just be like any other member? Then, with time, you probably
will be treated just like any other member. As long as you, yourself, make
yourself different from any other member you shouldn't be surprised when
you're treated differently. This is something that you elicit.

> If it was done to you, you might have a different opinion.

Nope. See above -- "it" is done to me in the same way "it" is done to you,
I just treat "it" differently, so I get a different feedback from "it". For
me, this all fits and makes sense.


In another post you wrote:
> People still hanging on isn't a good measure.  The amount of technical
> content is the real measure.

The number of people participating is the /only/ measure for how people
like it. They, like everybody else, "vote with their feet". They don't like
the content, technical or otherwise, they leave. They like it, they stay.
And "content" doesn't only mean the "objective" content; it includes the
way it is conveyed, too.

If you think this list has too little useful (for you) content, why are you
participating? What is your objective? Your behavior seems contradictory,
inconsistent; at least, it's difficult to understand what you want.

For the people that are on this list, it seems that largely they like it
the way it is run. I know I do -- that's because I'm here --, and for that
I have a high degree of gratitude and respect for the admins. Which doesn't
change if I don't agree with one or all of them (on an admin issue).

Gerhard

2008\06\07@090728 by olin piclist

face picon face
James Newton wrote:
> We tried throwing Olin off the list. He just immediately
> re-subscribed using a different email address. Repeatedly.

This is just plain untrue.

I subscribed with a different email address exactly once, and sent one
message with that address.  That was only to prove a point, not to get back
onto the list in any way.  I also picked the message very carefully.  I
replied to a post where someone had asked me a question by name, and I made
sure there was nothing in my response that anyone could possibly object to.

> We were
> spending so much time killing all his subscriptions and blocking them
> from being re-subscribed that it wasn't worth it.

This is pure libel.  I expect a public correction.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\06\07@110234 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
*** SHEEPLE - call to arms ***
*** SHEEPLE - call to arms ***
*** SHEEPLE - call to arms ***
*** SHEEPLE - call to arms ***
*** SHEEPLE - call to arms ***


Ad hominem is not something I'm oft too comfy with.
But, sometimes the homme need adzing ... :-).

___________


> This is pure libel.  I expect a public correction.

Maybe it just felt that way to him in the circumstances :-).
(My recollection (dim) was that said post also said
something like

   ' ... and I can log on with a new ID any time you ban me
and you can't stop me doing so , so there, and btw your
mother wears army boots ... '

- maybe the last part of that doesn't sound quite right ?
:-) )

BUT, and no suggestions here that two wrongs make a right,
you too have been dishing out slander and libel mixed with
opinion and some fact at vast length lately, almost all
targeted at James. While it has in part been packaged within
admin/management/ ... language it is James who you have been
roundly bollocking in email after email and for day after
day. You have queried his management, no - I take that
back - you have said his management is totally wrong. You
have queried his integrity, or insinuated lack of it. You
have commented so very righteously on his lack of
consistency. Et al ...  . You have said that many are
unhappy with his management. You have said ... . Well ...
you know what you've said.

Elsewhere you'd in many cases be unlucky to get past the
second such missive without waking up dead. Being admin and
moderator carries some extra privileges on the vast majority
of lists and having people wake up dead is one of them. Here
the basic desire to be decent, even in the face of
indecency, let's your notionally censored flames blaze out
across the list. Again and again and again.

What rather stuns me, were it not that I've become somewhat
apathetic about human apathy, is the utter volume of the
sheeples response. It's loudness has been astounding. The
number of posts amazing.

Wake up sheeple, people and general list denizens.

This is your commander and chief that Olin is bollocking
here day after day in his less than finely crafted attacks.
How do you think that is liable to be going down in list
owner central? Put yourself in James' shoes trying to bend
over backwards to accommodate such stuff.

What message is being put across when Olin can spew his
assertions day after day with a minimum of comment from the
sheeples.

Meanwhile, encouraged by the stunning lack of bleatings of
support from the assembled masses, Olin grows stronger and
louder and more strident.

Where do you think this is going to end?

Unmoderate Olin, by all means,
Allow him the special case of all or nothing as he desires -
behave badly and be banned for whatever time.
Then let him get on with being the incredible useful person
he can be and exercising his undoubtedly vast talents driven
by his indisputably high intelligence. And let him blow
himself off the list every now and then. With perhaps rules
for all that make the return times exponentially longer for
frequent repeats.

********* BUT ***********

DO NOT sit there like stupid Sheeples (are there any other
sort) and let him get stuck into the guy who spends his time
making this the place you enjoy. Tell James what you think
about how he's doing. Tell the other admins too. Tell Olin
that he's wrong - because he is.
Point out that happy sheeples are quiet sheeples and that
it's only in cases of extreme bullying that they are liable
to awake to action.

Do it now!!!!!!
Or, wish you had.



       Russell










2008\06\07@114116 by sergio masci

flavicon
face

I responded some days ago but tagged the response [OT] as there was a call
to move this thread to OT. So we've had one thread in OT and another in
ADMIN (which it seems doesn't even exits).

A little way down the road we get a post from Olin in the OT thread that
he doesn't read OT posts.

Rather than adding to all the chatter I've submitted my vote and I've been
waiting for the result.

Personnally I don't like Olin's attitude and I think he should remain
moderated. Actually I'd prefer if he'd just go set up his own list.

A big "thank you" to all the admins for all their work. I really don't
know how you put up with all this crap. Personnally I wouldn't have put
up with half the crap.

Regards
Sergio Masci


On Sun, 8 Jun 2008, Apptech wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> --

2008\06\07@122444 by M. Adam Davis

face picon face
On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 11:01 AM, Apptech <@spam@apptechRemoveMEspamEraseMEparadise.net.nz> wrote:
> DO NOT sit there like stupid Sheeples (are there any other
> sort) and let him get stuck into the guy who spends his time
> making this the place you enjoy. Tell James what you think
> about how he's doing. Tell the other admins too. Tell Olin
> that he's wrong - because he is.

Well sheesh.  It's been a huge struggle for me to avoid this thread to
the extent that I have, but it sounds like my desire to avoid conflict
is actually a poor response to this situation.

Olin has had many, _many_, MANY opportunites and "second chances" over
the YEARS to change his behavior.  He CHOOSES not to, and does not
recognize the authority of the list admins to enforce these rules.
The admins are volunteers for an unpleasant aspect of the pleasure
this list usually gives most engineers.  They underpin the whole
thing, and it is only by their hard work that we are able to keep
going - the list has almost ended a few times in the past due to lack
of someone to wrangle control.

*********
EXPLANATION:
The list is currently hosted by MIT.  When ANYONE complains to MIT
about the list, their response is to look at it and say, "Oh, that's
not really MIT material - it's not worth our time to fix, we'll just
throw it away."  Jory was kind enough to wrangle the misbehavors for
some time, but that get tiring and so while he technically is the MIT
'maintainer', he has passed administrative responsibilities onto James
Newton.

James volunteered for the task not because he wanted to, but because
he knew that if someone didn't step up to the plate we would ALL lost
a valuable community.  James Newton has SAVED the list MORE THAN ONCE
from issues started by people like Olin.

He wisely asked for help so he could manage the load he was taking, as
well as make sure others could maintain the list should something
happen that prevented him from doing it.  The list is, due to his
awesome effort, a rather well maintained and self-suffient entity
which has not caused MIT problem for years.

I have NO DOUBT that our admins are tough and handle a lot of really
messy, stupid controversy (like this) that we never have to hear
about.  We really put our admins through the ringer, and it must be
horribly tiring for them to field yet another stupid controversy.
**********

Olin was at the center of one or more outbursts which cause Jory to
consider throwing away the list.

HE WILL NOT CHANGE.

While we'd like to think (and hope) that the admins can "keep it
within the family" so to speak, the reality is that if someone has a
problem, they merely look to the list address "EraseMEpiclistspam@spam@MIT.edu" and
say, "If I have a bad problem, I'm going to spam everyone and anyone
to make sure I hurt the target as much as possible"

Because we've had several close calls Jory and MIT are pretty much
through with us - if they get any more significant complaints the list
will be gone, and the community that has strengthened for over a
decade will simply be gone.

HE WILL NOT CHANGE.

I usually keep my opinions to myself, and I usually avoid conflict
because it simply isn't worth my time.  However, I'm not interested in
losing this awesome resource just because one bully means to force the
admins to bend the list to his desires, rather than adjusting to the
existing rules and temperament of the list.

It's absurd for him to think that we should change for him, and risk
losing more than simple politeness.

Olin is an awesome person, a great man to work with, and I have sent
clients his way when I didn't have the time or technical chops to
handle a particular project.  Most of them say he is a pleasure to
work with in person.

But.

HE WILL NOT CHANGE.

We can't afford having him "accidently" hurt someone's feelings who
may have any desire to aim at hurting him and have us as collaterol
damage.

I urge you to vote:
@spam@jamesnewtonspam_OUTspam.....piclist.com&subject=OLIN_Moderate

The list is resilient enough, and I expect that nothing would happen
for some time if we go unmoderated for LIST BULLIES who don't
recognize their problem and refuse to change.

But it would only take one person to make us go through another MIT
near death experience.

Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it.

-Adam

--
EARTH DAY 2008
Tuesday April 22
Save Money * Save Oil * Save Lives * Save the Planet
http://www.driveslowly.org

2008\06\07@130152 by Carey Fisher

face picon face
On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 11:01 AM, Apptech <spamBeGoneapptechEraseMEspamparadise.net.nz> wrote:

> *** SHEEPLE - call to arms ***
> *** SHEEPLE - call to arms ***
> *** SHEEPLE - call to arms ***
> *** SHEEPLE - call to arms ***
> *** SHEEPLE - call to arms ***
> ...
> Wake up sheeple, people and general list denizens.
> ...
> What message is being put across when Olin can spew his
> assertions day after day with a minimum of comment from the
> sheeples.
> ...
> Do it now!!!!!!
> Or, wish you had.


Russell, I think you're righter'n rain.  But, I've been reading this thread
since the beginning and I think people haven't responded for the same reason
Olin ought to keep his mouth shut when a newbie asks a dumb question:  "If a
post doesn't directly address or affect you, don't respond unless you can be
helpful and not hurtful."

However, it's time to put in my two cents.  I've been wondering:

a) why do I continue to read this trash?
b) why does Olin want back on the list (unmoderated) so badly when he's a
PIC "expert" ?
c) when will James get fed up and just boot him?

And, I have no answers to any of these things!  It's really annoying,
unprofessional and uncivilized when Olin bashes a newbie for a stupid
question when the newbie didn't even direct the question to him
specifically.  Why not just ignore the message and KEEP YOUR MOUTH
SHUT?!!!!  I can't see where Olin suffers from stupid questions.  Why can't
he ignore them?  A personality flaw?  Worse?  IANADr so I don't know but
Olin's actions and the response/escalation of some list members looks very
childish.

You know, maybe he just likes to argue?  Honing his debating skills for a
political campaign?

Anyway, this is what I think James should say to Olin:

1.  If you don't like a post, unless it directly addresses or affects you,
keep your mouth shut and move on to something productive, unless you can be
helpful and not hurtful or arrogant.
2.  No one cares whether or not you post technical assistance.  You're not
the only source of PIC and engineering knowledge.
3.  If you do post, it must be civilized and not berating or name calling.
Treat other people on this list like you would treat your mother.
4.  If you don't/can't/won't follow these simple rules of decorum, leave or
we will ensure you can't post.

Now I'm wondering why I even care...???  Should I hit SEND or DISCARD?

Carey

2008\06\08@083443 by olin piclist

face picon face
Apptech wrote:
>> This is pure libel.  I expect a public correction.
>
> Maybe it just felt that way to him in the circumstances :-).
> (My recollection (dim) was that said post also said
> something like
>
>     ' ... and I can log on with a new ID any time you ban me
> and you can't stop me doing so , so there, and btw your
> mother wears army boots ... '
>
> - maybe the last part of that doesn't sound quite right ?
> :-) )

But I didn't do that except for the single specific case I mentioned.  If
untruths were stated as facts that made you look bad, wouldn't you want them
corrected?  Note that I asked for a "correction", not "apology".  I don't
care whether James is sorry or why he said it, and there is no point in
rubbing his face in the error.  I only care that the public record is
corrected.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\06\09@090046 by Mike Hord

picon face
> ...and I have also met [Olin] personally at one of the Masters conference
> and personally he is really a nice guy !!

Thus far I've avoided comment because I cherish the S/N ratio we usually
experience but I have to comment on this one.

This to me is absolutely the most direct argument for a ban.  From what
I've seen, Olin is the kind of guy who's nice to his family, a good employer,
and probably even a passable friend, but put him in a situation where he
has no lasting consequences (for instance, being rude won't cost him the
respect of his family/friends, cause a valuable employee to quit, or chase
a client away from his business)(examples of this kind of thing include
budging in the queue at the market, cutting people off in traffic, being an
ass to people in a public information exchange) and he has no innate
internal moral sense that tells him what is right and what is wrong.

For anyone on this list who has silently gritted their teeth after being
cutoff in traffic, or who quietly stood by and let the pushy kid budge
in the queue, or has otherwise been slighted by someone whose
scruples end where the consequences do, just once let's pull that guy
over, take away his keys and say "We don't appreciate that conduct
and you aren't welcome here.  We've offered to let you play by the
rules and you've thumbed your nose."

Mike H.

2008\06\09@093241 by olin piclist

face picon face
Mike Hord wrote:
> include budging in the queue at the market, cutting people off in
> traffic, being an ass to people in a public information exchange

You have no idea what I do in line at the market, in traffic, etc.  Stating
these things as facts is just plain wrong (and incorrect for that matter).


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\06\09@114325 by Mike Hord

picon face
I wasn't saying you DO those things- you're right, I have no idea of that.

What I AM saying is that your behavior on this list correlates strongly
with the type of person who does those things.  And I'm also saying that,
unlike in the line at the market or in our cars on the highway, in THIS
situation, we can and should politely but firmly tell you that we don't
feel your contributions outweigh the heartburn of wondering when the
next time you're going to jump out of a bush and say "boo" to some
poor newbie, and that you should go find someone else's bushes to
haunt.

In the interest of full disclosure, I should mention that the VERY FIRST
e-mail I received from the PICList was a scathing message FROM
YOU saying how stupid I was for posting an ASCII art circuit diagram
not in plaintext.  Fortunately for me, the next four messages were
from others saying "It IS in plaintext- you need to check your mail
viewer's settings", and my faith in the PICList was founded on the
four follow-ups rather than that first e-mail.

Mike H.

On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 8:34 AM, Olin Lathrop <olin_piclistspamBeGonespamembedinc.com> wrote:
> Mike Hord wrote:
>> include budging in the queue at the market, cutting people off in
>> traffic, being an ass to people in a public information exchange
>
> You have no idea what I do in line at the market, in traffic, etc.  Stating
> these things as facts is just plain wrong (and incorrect for that matter).

2008\06\09@123748 by Enrico Schuerrer

picon face

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: "Mike Hord" <RemoveMEmike.hord@spam@spamspamBeGonegmail.com>
An: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <.....piclist@spam@spamEraseMEmit.edu>
Gesendet: Montag, 09. Juni 2008 15:00
Betreff: Re: [ADMIN]: Question about member


> > ...and I have also met [Olin] personally at one of the Masters conference
> > and personally he is really a nice guy !!
>
> Thus far I've avoided comment because I cherish the S/N ratio we usually
> experience but I have to comment on this one.
>
> This to me is absolutely the most direct argument for a ban.  

I think we are not at a convent school - the question is: is there a value for the list if a member will be banned off? My answer is clearly a no.

When I first asked a question at the list, more or less in a helpless state, I got an answer where to look. The tone wasn't exactly I liked but - it gave me the right direction where to search and I solved my (more or less) unnecessary question.
A more friendlier answer would have been appreciated but I thought about the german saying: Who asks dumb get a dumb answer - and I asked more or less dumb and the answer wasn't dumb it was only a little bit uncordial.



> From what
> I've seen, Olin is the kind of guy who's nice to his family, a good employer,
> and probably even a passable friend, but put him in a situation where he
> has no lasting consequences (for instance, being rude won't cost him the
> respect of his family/friends, cause a valuable employee to quit, or chase
> a client away from his business)(examples of this kind of thing include
> budging in the queue at the market, cutting people off in traffic, being an
> ass to people in a public information exchange) and he has no innate
> internal moral sense that tells him what is right and what is wrong.

Let me ask, please: from where do you get the wisdom and authority to adjudicate on somebody? Maybe it's your personal opinion, your personal conclusion - or is it your personal experience with Olin off the list? So if it is your experience then please state it.


> For anyone on this list who has silently gritted their teeth after being
> cutoff in traffic, or who quietly stood by and let the pushy kid budge
> in the queue, or has otherwise been slighted by someone whose
> scruples end where the consequences do, just once let's pull that guy
> over, take away his keys and say "We don't appreciate that conduct
> and you aren't welcome here.  We've offered to let you play by the
> rules and you've thumbed your nose."

Sorry but this is not my opinion. I silently gritted my teeth but can't live with. So I think you will speak personally for you but not for all who gritted their teeth.

>
> Mike H.


Enrico Sch.

2008\06\09@123952 by Apptech

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Sort of an open letter to Olin. Sort of.

> Mike Hord wrote:
>> include budging in the queue at the market, cutting
>> people off in
>> traffic, being an ass to people in a public information
>> exchange

> You have no idea what I do in line at the market, in
> traffic, etc.  Stating
> these things as facts is just plain wrong (and incorrect
> for that matter).

What's the chance we can call a truce on this lot?

FWIW - and not directly relevant to truce call
He actually said:

> From what I've seen, Olin is the kind of guy who's ...

Now that's the sort of indirect non assertion that people
were talking about recently with another example and, er,
another person having made it. You are here on the receiving
end of a similar 'event'.

What I'd really like is for people to feel they are able to
stop beating up on Olin *BECAUSE* he decides to agree that
he'll voluntarily limit his actions in one geographically
(PICLIST-o-graphically?) small area  - but a very vital one.

Olin:    Please swear on Bible or affirm an affirmation that
you are suitably awed by:

"I Olin Lathrop, being of sound mind, and in fact sounder
mind than many other list members, various admins and guys
in NZ not even mentioned, do hereby swear promise and other
wise commit myself, by all that's holy & valuable to me by
my terms of reference, to stay away from instructing the
newcomers in matters of etiquette, sanity, laziness,
stupidity, RTFMing, dead fish, phases of the moon and in
fact ANYTHING at all until they have come of age, transited
the basic rites of PICList passage and become novo-citizens
of this our great and respected sub society, NOTWITHSTANDING
that I consider such a behaviour less productive, less
character forming, less list improving, and less generally
salubrious in many many ways, YET I will so commit to do due
to my love AND for the sanity of mind of a small majority of
my fellow listizens, AND will conscientiously hew to such
practices, styles and general behaviours such as might
otherwise lead me to the gates of transgression in a trice,
all unintended, AND IN CONSEQUENCE of my magnanimous and
totally unnecessary gesture, bestowed in aforesaid love and
concern for my fellow listizens, I shall expect, albeit not
DEMANDE, the due adulation, respect, admiration and general
benison of the assembled listizens and more. Amen.

And all the people said - "Amen. Kiss kiss. Welcome home
Olin. Boy we've missed you. Really!!! Can you tell us how to
... ?. Why when I do this does it ... ?. In your code ... ?.
Say look. No. Dont! There's a newbie over there and he's
acting pretty lazy, close your ears and look the other way
and we'll go beat up on him a little, but gently, and we're
sure that in no time flat he'll be up to the level where
he's not going to totally waste your valuable time. // Hey -
pretty amazing really, you know that guy the other day who
typed all in capitals? I thought he was  real idiot frankly.
Turns out he's using a mouthstick to operate a key board.
Pretty old tech. AND he's got a PhD that way! . ... .  //
famous astronomer / suicidal / Cambodian / ... . "

And Olin grew old and prospered amongst his community of
international friends, and those who knew him well wondered
quietly at his statesmanlike behaviour and words of great
technical wisdom.

OR

:-(.

Olin - how about it?
One small step for a man ... ? :-).




           Russell


PS:    By all means write me a prescription of the one small
area in my life that needs changing.
One???
Small??
Are you mad?
:-)
Compared to me you're on a roll :-)









2008\06\09@163203 by Bob Blick

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I left the list a couple of months ago but recently decided to take a
look at it to see if my feelings had changed.

Seeing this current thread and traversing completely through it has
caused my feelings to change but not in a positive way.

Olin is a busy man who is educated, intelligent, and fully employed. He
does not market the piclist with his products or troll for customers. He
doesn't help people in order to stroke his ego. He helps because he is a
generous person.

That's a lot more than I can say about the group of small-minded,
hateful people who have been using this thread to trash him publicly.
Some of you couch it in a long-winded preachy fashion and some of you in
more grumpy ways. Some attempt to dissect him as you would a frog in
science class. All are equally mean-spirited.

Why is the trashing of Olin allowed to continue? Simple. Some of the
piclist moderators are among the cruelest attackers.

Over the years, the piclist has changed. It's been dumbed-down.

Any topic seems to be allowed now in EE and OT. I'm speaking
particularly of "announcement" and "newsy" posts. As if there aren't
websites with tech news already. The piclist used to be a place where
people posted questions and got answers. If you came up with a new
algorithm or circuit you could post it and get a critique.

What's to be done? Like Olin, I am also an educated, intelligent, fully
employed person who is very busy. I don't "need" the piclist. My ego
doesn't need stroking. But I am willing to put some effort into fixing
what I perceive to be wrong. Do I think this can happen? Unlikely, as
those who think the piclist is fine the way it is won't like it. They'll
probably need to leave the piclist completely although I am not
interested in a hostile takeover. I'll need help, too, so I'd like to
hear from people who think this is a good idea.

But I am offering to help so please take me seriously. Or publicly trash
me. Since you're running out of ways to trash Olin, this may come as a
welcome alternative.

I'll monitor the piclist for a little while and measure the response.

Cheerful regards,

Bob

--
http://www.fastmail.fm - Send your email first class

2008\06\09@181921 by Peter van Hoof

face picon face
From: Bob Blick .....bobblickRemoveMEspamftml.net wrote:

[snip]
>That's a lot more than I can say about the group of small-minded,
>hateful people who have been using this thread to trash him publicly.
>Some of you couch it in a long-winded preachy fashion and some of you in
>more grumpy ways. Some attempt to dissect him as you would a frog in
>science class. All are equally mean-spirited.
[snip]
Well said Bob , I couldn't have done a better job myself. Some of the bashing done here
is more offensive than what Olin has done.
Peter van Hoof

2008\06\09@183121 by Richard Prosser

picon face
2008/6/10 Peter van Hoof <.....pvhoofSTOPspamspam@spam@yahoo.com>:
> From: Bob Blick bobblickEraseMEspam@spam@ftml.net wrote:
>
> [snip]
>>That's a lot more than I can say about the group of small-minded,
>>hateful people who have been using this thread to trash him publicly.
>>Some of you couch it in a long-winded preachy fashion and some of you in
>>more grumpy ways. Some attempt to dissect him as you would a frog in
>>science class. All are equally mean-spirited.
> [snip]


> Well said Bob , I couldn't have done a better job myself. Some of the bashing done here
> is more offensive than what Olin has done.
> Peter van Hoof
>

I wasn't going to enter this debate - but I have to agree.

RP

2008\06\09@194516 by Bob Blick

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On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 15:18:59 -0700 (PDT), "Peter van Hoof"
<RemoveMEpvhoofspamspamBeGoneyahoo.com> said:
> From: Bob Blick spamBeGonebobblickKILLspamspam@spam@ftml.net wrote:
>
> [snip]
> >That's a lot more than I can say about the group of small-minded,
> >hateful people who have been using this thread to trash him publicly.
> >Some of you couch it in a long-winded preachy fashion and some of you in
> >more grumpy ways. Some attempt to dissect him as you would a frog in
> >science class. All are equally mean-spirited.
> [snip]
> Well said Bob , I couldn't have done a better job myself. Some of the
> bashing done here
> is more offensive than what Olin has done.
> Peter van Hoof
>
> --

2008\06\09@195158 by Apptech

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>... But I am willing to put some effort into fixing
> what I perceive to be wrong. ... I'll need help, too, so
> I'd like to
> hear from people who think this is a good idea.
>
> But I am offering to help so please take me seriously.

The more resources the better, all else being equal.
It's not obvious that this have to be either/or though.
If eg you ran a list with well defined guidelines that had
substantial technical value, tighter admin control on  what
was acceptable material and a different ethos to PIClist,
people who valued both could belong to both at little cost
to either group - in fact hopefully overall synergy for both
lists.



       Russell

2008\06\09@195759 by Jinx

face picon face
> Olin is a busy man who is educated, intelligent, and fully employed.
> He does not market the piclist with his products or troll for customers

He does actually - quite legitimately advertises programmers and offers
to fix things for payment or be contacted off-list for consultancy, same
as a few people do from time to time

2008\06\09@210529 by Robert Ammerman

picon face
From: Bob Blick bobblickspam_OUTspam@spam@ftml.net wrote:

[snip]
>That's a lot more than I can say about the group of small-minded,
>hateful people who have been using this thread to trash him publicly.
>Some of you couch it in a long-winded preachy fashion and some of you in
>more grumpy ways. Some attempt to dissect him as you would a frog in
>science class. All are equally mean-spirited.
[snip]
 
 Indeed! And I hope you decide to stay, Bob!
 
 -- Bob Ammerman
 RAm Systems
   

2008\06\09@210542 by Bob Blick

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Apptech wrote:
>> ... But I am willing to put some effort into fixing
>> what I perceive to be wrong. ... I'll need help, too, so
>> I'd like to
>> hear from people who think this is a good idea.
>>
>> But I am offering to help so please take me seriously.
>
> The more resources the better, all else being equal.
> It's not obvious that this have to be either/or though.
> If eg you ran a list with well defined guidelines that had
> substantial technical value, tighter admin control on  what
> was acceptable material and a different ethos to PIClist,
> people who valued both could belong to both at little cost
> to either group - in fact hopefully overall synergy for both
> lists.

Russell,

I'm not talking about two lists, I'm talking about focusing the piclist
back on the original core values.

In other words, you would not be allowed to post things like "It's
official - there is no reality" under the EE tag. It would be barely
tolerated under OT if at all, since it is just tech info-tainment -
anyone actually interested in Quantum Mechanics presumably already
visits tech websites that cater to QM.

Additionaly there would be no tolerance for the long-term personal
bashing thread that is hopefully coming to a close today.

The help I am offering is administrative, in case any of the admins who
have been running the piclist decide they wish to take a break.

Cheerful regards,

Bob

2008\06\09@213012 by James Newton

face picon face
I'd be happy to see you take over the list Bob, just read the mailman manual
and demonstrate that you know how to do a few simple / common tasks.

--
James.

{Original Message removed}

2008\06\09@214031 by Bob Blick

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Hi James,

I'll get right on it. Thanks!

Cheerful regards,

Bob


James Newton wrote:
> I'd be happy to see you take over the list Bob, just read the mailman manual
> and demonstrate that you know how to do a few simple / common tasks.
>
> --
> James.

2008\06\09@214156 by Jinx

face picon face
> In other words, you would not be allowed to post things like "It's
> official - there is no reality" under the EE tag. It would be barely
> tolerated under OT if at all, since it is just tech info-tainment -

Bob, there's "of interest" and there's "of use" and would prefer to
see "of interest" go into [OT]. I subscribe to all tags so I'll see "of
interest" anyway, but for those who may only subscribe to [EE]
( and [PIC] of course), it would be better to keep those tags "of
use". If you want to have a more varied diet you can opt-in to [OT]

2008\06\09@234324 by Gaston Gagnon

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James,
Obviously Bob wants to become administrator with an agenda of his own
which has nothing to do with the object of this thread.
Bob says he does not like bashing. Good enough. The question of the
moment is "As administrator, how will he prevent Olin from bashing other
members of the list?
Gaston

James Newton wrote:
> I'd be happy to see you take over the list Bob, just read the mailman manual
> and demonstrate that you know how to do a few simple / common tasks.
>
> --
> James.
>
> {Original Message removed}

2008\06\10@000923 by Bob Blick

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Hi Gaston,

Although you asked James the question, perhaps I'm in a better position
to answer.

First, my agenda definitely does have something to do with this thread.
Nobody on the piclist should be allowed to be trashed for weeks on end.
That's why I objected, I felt the list needed some help, and I'm willing
to put time and effort into it.

Second, there are personal dynamics at work here. At various times over
the last few years I recall James saying that the job of admin is no
fun. The dynamics will certainly change, and if things don't get better
I'm sure I'll hear about it.

Finally, if you've been on the list for a few years you already know
that Olin and I have respect for each other and have also had our share
of differences. But if I'm put in the role of diplomat I will try to be
diplomatic.

Cheerful regards,

Bob

Gaston Gagnon wrote:
> James,
> Obviously Bob wants to become administrator with an agenda of his own
> which has nothing to do with the object of this thread.
> Bob says he does not like bashing. Good enough. The question of the
> moment is "As administrator, how will he prevent Olin from bashing other
> members of the list?
> Gaston

2008\06\10@064851 by Dennis Crawley

picon face
On Monday, June 09, 2008 5:31 PM [GMT-3=CET],
Bob Blick  wrote:

> Olin is a busy man who is educated, intelligent, and fully employed. He
> does not market the piclist with his products or troll for customers. He
> doesn't help people in order to stroke his ego. He helps because he is a
> generous person.

Bob, please, don't say educated to a person who love exploiting the
weekenes, or think his way of think is the only one. Besides, if you count
the times Olin return, ever was to offer a new programmer kit.

I have the feeling that many people like you "admit" in your *main filters*
an inteligent person despite the way he or she relates whith others.

In my culture that combination is impossible... and I see that patience and
care, stimulate the customers more that the arrogancy.

OK,... another cyle to see. Our list became a social experiment, isn't it?.

I want to express my gratitud to all the people who work to mantain this
list.
I think it will be more traffic now.

Cheers Regards, Bob.
Dennis.



2008\06\10@120510 by Gaston Gagnon

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Bob Blick wrote:
> Finally, if you've been on the list for a few years you already know
> that Olin and I have respect for each other
Yes I noticed you have never been bashed by Olin.
>  But if I'm put in the role of diplomat I will try to be
> diplomatic.
>
>  

Administrators are appreciated for decision making ;-)

"As administrator, how will he prevent Olin from bashing other
members of the list?

Gaston



2008\06\10@121911 by Bob Blick

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On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 12:05:12 -0400, "Gaston Gagnon"
<spamBeGonegaston.gagnon@spam@spamvideotron.ca> said:
> Administrators are appreciated for decision making ;-)
>
> "As administrator, how will he prevent Olin from bashing other
> members of the list?
>
> Gaston

Hi Gaston,

So far this morning, the only bashing involving Olin has been against
him.

For some list members this has become an addiction to shared outrage,
the end result is almost an arms race. We don't need a hundred
vigilantes goading each other on.

I don't understand why you use the word "prevent". There's nothing to
prevent people from running red lights - they can do it if they want to.
Sometimes it might even be justified, if the intersection is blocked and
there's a fire truck behind you trying to get through.

What I'd like to see is everyone to add a little extra decency to their
own behavior. Right now some people are trying to pick a fight with
Olin. Those are the people who need to look within.

Cheerful regards,

Bob



--
http://www.fastmail.fm - A fast, anti-spam email service.

2008\06\10@162155 by Michael Rigby-Jones

picon face


> -----Original Message-----
> From: RemoveMEpiclist-bouncesEraseMEspamKILLspammit.edu [spamBeGonepiclist-bouncesspam_OUTspamRemoveMEmit.edu] On
Behalf
> Of Bob Blick
> Sent: 10 June 2008 17:19
> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
> Subject: Re: [ADMIN]: Question about member
>
> What I'd like to see is everyone to add a little extra decency to
their
> own behavior. Right now some people are trying to pick a fight with
> Olin. Those are the people who need to look within.
>

A bit like turning around and giving the school bully a bloody nose?

Mike

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2008\06\10@215644 by Gaston Gagnon

face
flavicon
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Bob Blick wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 12:05:12 -0400, "Gaston Gagnon"
> <.....gaston.gagnonspamRemoveMEvideotron.ca> said:
>  
>> Administrators are appreciated for decision making ;-)
>>
>> "As administrator, how will he prevent Olin from bashing other
>> members of the list?
>>
>> Gaston
>>    
>
> Hi Gaston,
>
> So far this morning, the only bashing involving Olin has been against
> him.
>
>  
Bob I think you should reread Fred Jones message and also the first
message Olin published today. Fred was posting a reply to your assertion:

/*Olin is a busy man who is educated, intelligent, and fully employed. He
does not market the piclist with his products or troll for customers. He
doesn't help people in order to stroke his ego. He helps because he is a
generous person.*/


> I don't understand why you use the word "prevent". There's nothing to
> prevent people from running red lights - they can do it if they want to.
>  
Try running red lights in front of a policeman he will certainly give
you a few "incentives" to change your behavior with respect of following
the rules. He will therefore "prevent" you in a certain way from running
red lights next time.
> Sometimes it might even be justified, if the intersection is blocked and
> there's a fire truck behind you trying to get through.
>
>  
You can also end up in hospital along with innocent bystanders or even
worse win yourself an indefinite ban from the piclist ;-)

> What I'd like to see is everyone to add a little extra decency to their
> own behavior. Right now some people are trying to pick a fight with
> Olin. Those are the people who need to look within.
>
>  
Again reread Fred's message.

From your writing it seems you have joined the piclist on 2008-05-31 at
19:51
so welcome to the piclist.

Gaston
P.S. If I was delinquent I would love to have you as my champion :-)





2008\06\11@102015 by Byron Jeff

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On Mon, Jun 09, 2008 at 04:31:39PM -0400, Bob Blick wrote:
> I left the list a couple of months ago but recently decided to take a
> look at it to see if my feelings had changed.

Bob,

I am glad that you decided to give the list another chance.

> Seeing this current thread and traversing completely through it has
> caused my feelings to change but not in a positive way.

I've been wandering through it on and off too. It's certainly a circus.

> Olin is a busy man who is educated, intelligent, and fully employed. He
> does not market the piclist with his products or troll for customers. He
> doesn't help people in order to stroke his ego. He helps because he is a
> generous person.

And he's quite helpful.

> That's a lot more than I can say about the group of small-minded,
> hateful people who have been using this thread to trash him publicly.
> Some of you couch it in a long-winded preachy fashion and some of you in
> more grumpy ways. Some attempt to dissect him as you would a frog in
> science class. All are equally mean-spirited.

I agree there has been some of that. Most of the attacks seem to be
directed at the fact that quite a few folks here wants Olin to change his
behavior and Olin has been unwilling to comply.

But to do so by exhibiting some of those same behaviors, treating Olin
quite uncivilly, comes across as hypocritical and unproductive IMHO.

> Why is the trashing of Olin allowed to continue? Simple. Some of the
> piclist moderators are among the cruelest attackers.

Again it seems to be fueled by the frustration of the admins to have to
wrangle what they consider to be unacceptable behavior. Buy to let it drag
on and on... Sigh.

> Over the years, the piclist has changed. It's been dumbed-down.
>
> Any topic seems to be allowed now in EE and OT. I'm speaking
> particularly of "announcement" and "newsy" posts. As if there aren't
> websites with tech news already. The piclist used to be a place where
> people posted questions and got answers. If you came up with a new
> algorithm or circuit you could post it and get a critique.

I believe that's why you signed off a couple of months ago. I've noted that
the practice of non Electrical/Electronic engineering topics under the EE
tag has continued. My understanding was that Russell is being brought up to
speed as a moderator and that eventually a new tag will be added.

But as to your second point, communities do grow and change. With over 2000
active members, some shift is to be expected. The question is how to manage
that change.

> What's to be done? Like Olin, I am also an educated, intelligent, fully
> employed person who is very busy. I don't "need" the piclist. My ego
> doesn't need stroking. But I am willing to put some effort into fixing
> what I perceive to be wrong. Do I think this can happen? Unlikely, as
> those who think the piclist is fine the way it is won't like it. They'll
> probably need to leave the piclist completely although I am not
> interested in a hostile takeover. I'll need help, too, so I'd like to
> hear from people who think this is a good idea.

Can you clarify your proposal? I get from the above that two things are
wrong:

1. Public trashing of individual posters.
2. Non PIC and non electrical/electronic engineering posts in PIC/EE

Now a couple of questions:

1. Are you planning on censoring posts/topics in OT? The above discussion
makes it seem so.

2. How exactly do you propose to curtail the public trashing of individuals
on the list. Censorship? Moderation? Kicking offenders off the list?

The problem I see is that a mailing list isn't like a web forum where
moderators can move and/or delete offending posts. The options seem to be
more limited than that.

Any clarifications on these issues would be helpful.

> But I am offering to help so please take me seriously. Or publicly trash
> me. Since you're running out of ways to trash Olin, this may come as a
> welcome alternative.
>
> I'll monitor the piclist for a little while and measure the response.

I'd just like to say for the record that I have issues with both censorship
and moderation of posts. It's my belief that trying to prohibit certain
topics and behaviors cause more problems than the topics and behaviors
themselves. The discussions on where Russell should post, and how Olin
should behave, and if Olin should be moderated, have generated thousands of
mail messages. The answer is not "Don't do that! Don't post that! Don't say
that!" IMO.

The answer is both communicating when someone comes across what they
consider unacceptable behavior, and having a place where even if the
behavior is unacceptable to some, it is still allowed.

Russell is working on becoming a moderator so that a new tag can be added.
Wonderful. Those who are not interested can unsubscribe from that tag.
Those who are interested can subscribe.

As for Olin being abrasive to new subscribers, just post and call him on is
when he does it. A simple "That post is abrasive. But he is correct when he
says that you should read these manuals for the answers. Welcome to the
list. We look forward to hearing more from you. I'd suggest ignoring
abrasive people." Should be enough. Not the "Olin, don't post that" tripe
that we get every time it happens.

Anyway that's my nickel. Personally I subscribe to everything and delete
uninteresting threads. Keeps my life simple.

Hope this helps the discussion.

BAJ

2008\06\11@123856 by Bob Blick

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On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 10:20:51 +0000, "Byron Jeff" <byronjeffspam@spam@clayton.edu>
said:
{Quote hidden}

Hi Byron,

Thanks for writing. It's not always possible to sum up ones feelings in
an easily communicated way. I think the spirit of the piclist needs to
be reaffirmed and the members unite toward that goal. When things get to
the point of moderation or censoring by admins it has gone too far, and
I don't think I could continue if the piclist got less fun. Notice I
said "by admins". I think people need to self-moderate and self-censor
to maintain the quality and the technical nature of the piclist.

How to enforce it? I think offlist emails by admins work quite well.

Certainly things evolve over time. I've been on the piclist for over ten
years. In that time the internet has changed - news aggregation, blogs,
and the Microchip forum to mention a few. But the cool thing about the
piclist was that it has been about PICs and the things you'd hook up to
them. I don't see why that should change. The piclist, if anything,
should stick to what it does best rather than try to be a list for
everything. I don't see "number of subscribers" or "number of messages"
as being a good metric for quality.

Ten years ago there were fewer tags. I am not in favor of adding more
tags. I am in favor of posting when you have a question, an answer or
have done something you want to share. I have no objection to posts with
links to great technical resources when it's relevant(Jinx linking to
the site that showed the impedance of the TL431 is a good example).

But the membership of the piclist has changed, too. If there are 2000
people happy with the way things are, and want more, clearly I'm in
trouble. This is where Russell and I really disagree. I think he should
have a blog. I don't think he should have a topic category on the
piclist. If that happens, I'm out of here, there's nothing I can do
because I am absolutely against having politics, evolution, metaphysics
and the like on the piclist no matter what tag it bears. This isn't a
supermarket, this is a niche market. We don't need a category for global
warming. There are already entire sites for those discussions, here's
one that Russell already contributes to:
http://hot-topic.co.nz/2008/04/22/the-sincerest-form-of-flat-earthery/

Where do I go from here? I'm volunteering to help take the piclist back
in time ten years. But if the owner of the piclist doesn't want that, I
can't be of much use. Hey, who is the owner of the piclist anyway?

So much for a finishing on positive note :(

Best regards,

Bob

--
http://www.fastmail.fm - Does exactly what it says on the tin

2008\06\11@124849 by M. Adam Davis

face picon face
On 6/11/08, Bob Blick <EraseMEbobblickRemoveMEspamSTOPspamftml.net> wrote:
> Where do I go from here? I'm volunteering to help take the piclist back
> in time ten years. But if the owner of the piclist doesn't want that, I
> can't be of much use. Hey, who is the owner of the piclist anyway?

Jory Bell.

-Adam

--
EARTH DAY 2008
Tuesday April 22
Save Money * Save Oil * Save Lives * Save the Planet
http://www.driveslowly.org

2008\06\11@164302 by alan smith

picon face
havent heard from Jory for years.....last time was a post about some strange new computer that was coming out.&nbsp; Is he even still active here?

--- On Wed, 6/11/08, M. Adam Davis &lt;RemoveMEstienmanKILLspamspamTakeThisOuTgmail.com&gt; wrote:

From: M. Adam Davis &lt;spamBeGonestienmanspam@spam@gmail.com&gt;
Subject: Re: [ADMIN]: Question about member
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." &lt;RemoveMEpiclistspam_OUTspammit.edu&gt;
Date: Wednesday, June 11, 2008, 9:48 AM

On 6/11/08, Bob Blick &lt;bobblickspamspamftml.net&gt; wrote:
&gt; Where do I go from here? I'm volunteering to help take the piclist
back
&gt; in time ten years. But if the owner of the piclist doesn't want that,
I
&gt; can't be of much use. Hey, who is the owner of the piclist anyway?

Jory Bell.

-Adam

--
EARTH DAY 2008
Tuesday April 22
Save Money * Save Oil * Save Lives * Save the Planet
http://www.driveslowly.org

2008\06\11@182921 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
> On 6/11/08, Bob Blick &lt;spam_OUTbobblickspam_OUTspamspam_OUTftml.net&gt; wrote:
> &gt; Where do I go from here? I'm volunteering to help
> take the piclist
> back
> &gt; in time ten years. But if the owner of the piclist
> doesn't want that,
> I
> &gt; can't be of much use. Hey, who is the owner of the
> piclist anyway?

> Jory Bell.

> -Adam

> havent heard from Jory for years.....last time was a post
> about some strange new computer that was coming out.&nbsp;
> Is he even still active here?


Jory is not active on the list.
But, he is indeed alive and well and in the loop, as it
were, and watching over you :-).



       Russell

2008\06\11@193710 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Bob Blick wrote:

> But the membership of the piclist has changed, too. If there are 2000
> people happy with the way things are, and want more, ...

That's probably not far from reality, otherwise people would unsubscribe.

> I'm volunteering to help take the piclist back in time ten years.

Other than policing people and making them not post -- which is what I
think you said you don't want to do --, what else do you want to do to make
people not post what they want to post? If the current content isn't what
you would like it to be, it sounds to me as if you were proposing much more
policing than just trying to make sure that posters don't offend members.
(Maybe putting everybody but Olin on moderation :)

Gerhard

2008\06\11@210001 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
I'm skimming and can't spend the time at present to address
some of Bob's undoubtedly important points. (A large Gaggle
of BOGO lights call ...).
But I'll just comment on one point where Bob's comment was
essentially correct but also inadvertently possibly
accidentally misleading .

> We don't need a category for global
> warming. There are already entire sites for those
> discussions, here's
> one that Russell already contributes to:
> http://hot-topic.co.nz/2008/04/22/the-sincerest-form-of-flat-earthery/

'Has contributed to".
I do not as an almost 100% rule spend time posting on other
lists blogs or whatever.
I do not roam the internet world proclaiming on Global
Warming, or anything else. I DO do lot's of reading, and
report back the distilled essence, where it seems
appropriate,  to my family on the PICList. I have one other
list where I am active - ARocket.

Contributing to the thread that Bob refers to was a most
unusual exception to my practices. There was one really
bolshy character making unsupported and unsupportable
statements about AGW AND referring to a website of
scientific papers and a blog which he appeared to be the
sole author of. I cam apon the thread due to an AGWite
slanging a NZ commentator. The merits of the detractor may
be adduced from the fact that he said that he had been
thinking of rebutting Freeman Dydon's recent comments but
considered that that would be "like shooting fish in a
barrel", so he had decided not to. Anyone with that much
ability compared to Freeman Dyson would indeed be an awesome
intellect to tangle with. So, I joined the fray for a wee
while, but after he got stuck in an ad hominem and similar
loop for a while I didn't persist,

But, it's nice to see that Bob's keeping track of my
internet activities :-)

___________________________

And, oh OK, I'll be drawn on one other point for now.

> I'm volunteering to help take the piclist back
> in time ten years.

Indeed.



           Russell


2008\06\11@211331 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face
Gerhard Fiedler wrote:
> Bob Blick wrote:
>
>> But the membership of the piclist has changed, too. If there are 2000
>> people happy with the way things are, and want more, ...
>
> That's probably not far from reality, otherwise people would unsubscribe.
>
>> I'm volunteering to help take the piclist back in time ten years.
>
> Other than policing people and making them not post -- which is what I
> think you said you don't want to do --, what else do you want to do to make
> people not post what they want to post? If the current content isn't what
> you would like it to be, it sounds to me as if you were proposing much more
> policing than just trying to make sure that posters don't offend members.
> (Maybe putting everybody but Olin on moderation :)
>
> Gerhard
>

Hi Gerhard,

I think there's very little left in original context, it wouldn't make
sense to try to reply.

But since you are challenging me, please let me ask what it is about the
piclist that you like and also feel I would destroy. Because I think the
piclist was better ten years ago and that's what I'm aiming for.

How would I go about changing it? I guess with my powers of persuasion,
it's not like I can send a free tank of gas to everyone, or smack them
upside the head.

Cheerful regards,

Bob

2008\06\11@233212 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
> But since you are challenging me, please let me ask what
> it is about the
> piclist that you like and also feel I would destroy.
> Because I think the
> piclist was better ten years ago and that's what I'm
> aiming for.

> How would I go about changing it? I guess with my powers
> of persuasion,
> it's not like I can send a free tank of gas to everyone,
> or smack them
> upside the head.

More anon. Still too busy to play for long ... .

For examples, presumably of Bob's ideas of 'powers of
persuasion' and 'lack of smacking upside the head' [no tanks
of gas were harmed during this event] you could perhaps look
at the last series of posts from Bob shortly before he left
off posting on the list for a while a wee while ago.

I posted some material on sunspots and how the sun worked,
couched in simple terms but based on the very very very best
science to date, and accurate in terminology, and with eg
NOAA/NASA refs amongst others.

As this AFAIK is the latest available example of Bob in
persuasion mode then, leaving aside his reaction to my
posting per se [he didn't think I should be talking about
sunspots] an examination of his comments on my mental
processes, the scientific content of what I posted and
related matters are, presumably exemplars of what Bob has in
mind for the future.

It may, perhaps, be that the new reasoned, reasoning,
reasonable, polite, persuasive Bob that he is telling us
about is really what he has in mind and that we are not just
seeing a Bob in sheep's clothing in his latest foot in the
door, take the list back 10 years foray. Perhaps.



       Russell  :-(

2008\06\12@000912 by K S

picon face
> and the Microchip forum to mention a few. But the cool thing about the
> piclist was that it has been about PICs and the things you'd hook up to
> them. I don't see why that should change. The piclist, if anything,

I've been a mostly lurker on the list for 8 years.

Eight years ago there were very few other places on the web one could
go for real help with PICs and sometimes even electronics in general.
These days every dog and it's owner has a page describing their PIC
project, how tos, why PICs suck, etc.

Eight years ago the Microchip forums were a joke. Today they are
possibly THE first place to go for info.

Today you can type "RA4 not working" in google for an immediate answer.

Eight years ago the content of the PIClist was great and fitting for
the time. Today the content is still great.

You don't really believe that we are all still hanging around here
solely because of the PICs do you?

To all those who have broadened my mind with their interesting posts,
both PIC and non-PIC, I say many thanks. Even this thread in itself
has been a great teacher about how we humans behave.

Kris.

2008\06\12@001705 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face
Apptech wrote:

> I posted some material on sunspots and how the sun worked,
> couched in simple terms but based on the very very very best
> science to date, and accurate in terminology, and with eg
> NOAA/NASA refs amongst others.

Sunspots have no place on piclist EE. If I was admin I'd say "take it OT
" and you'd pretty much have to take it OT.

Got a problem with that?

-Bob

2008\06\12@011309 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
>> I posted some material on sunspots and how the sun
>> worked,
>> couched in simple terms but based on the very very very
>> best
>> science to date, and accurate in terminology, and with eg
>> NOAA/NASA refs amongst others.

Your response,

> Sunspots have no place on piclist EE ...

is a straw man. It addresses the point that I specifically
said I wasn't addressing. ie

>>   leaving aside his reaction to my
>> posting per se [he didn't think I should be talking about
>> sunspots]

What you did not address was:

> As this AFAIK is the latest available example of Bob in
> persuasion mode then, ...
> ... an examination of his comments on my mental
> processes, the scientific content of what I posted and
> related matters are, presumably exemplars of what Bob has
> in
> mind for the future.

Cherry picking is dangerously easy. You managed it above and
I understand that this is easy to do accidentally. In the
following I'll try not to do it more than is unavoidable for
brevity. I'm sure somebody will point it out if I overdo it
:-)

To refresh your memory.
_____________

The following within the same email:

Russell:
>... Sunspot cycles and magnitude are
> believed to be caused by a "dynamo" effect within the sun.
> Each cycle is a half cycle of the sun's dynamo with the
> polarity reversing per half cycle. ...
> ... This much is established fact.

Bob
{Quote hidden}

FWIW - the tea-leave reading is a summary of best NOAA/NASA
understanding, as I had indicated at the time.

_________________

Another email:

Bob

> I've finally had enough of this crap. Have your
> pseuedo-scientific
> mumbo-jumbo and while you're at it, tie some magnets to
> the fuel line on
> your automobile to get better mileage, Russell.  It's you
> or me and I
> quit. You win. Have fun with what's left of the piclist.

The same material.
Still best science available.
Doesn't make it true, but it's the best anyone can do.

BUT the main point I'm raising here is that terming the
factual content of what I offer "crap", and linking both my
material and my level of offerings with fuel line magnets is
not quite up to the full-frontal attacks that have been seen
here, but would I imagine, at least be considered in
evidence when assessing the seriousness of your assertions
about being the face of calm reasoned and balanced admin
professionalism.

I have never called you, here or anywhere. I did not
denigrate your offerings, or your intellectual capabilities,
and I have NEVER done so.

Olin's comment, a little further along the thread, was
interesting, given recent discourses

Jinx >>  I'm surprised he didn't filter.
Olin >> He shouldn't have to.

_________________________

Leading up to the above

Bob
> Why not look at the "spirit of the law". If something like
> Global
> Warming generates giant amounts of OT chatter, it belongs
> OT no matter
> what the people who say they want "serious scientific
> discussions"
> intend.
Bob
> In other words, it defines itself as OT because of the
> effect it has.
...

If you look at the rather low % (believe it or not) of my
posts that lead to a furore, and then look at the name, and
perhaps names of the people who make very large noises about
them and make sure that they are noticed by all and yon,
then you may wonder at the shortness of the list of names
that you have.

ie in the context of the above comments, the short (short
short) list of people decide something is OT (or that I
posted it) and work diligently to ensure that it has an
effect. Paranoia? Find some non cherry-picked examples of
long wranglings that "I" have caused and then look to see if
the super-short-list people are the very active complainers.
______________________________________

It matters less, but you are also not totally unknown for
trashing my engineering comments with witty one liners that
tend to obscure the underlying technical aspects. All good
fun and very funny I'm sure. But I'm never surprised when I
see such about something I've written with your name under
it.

Russell
>>>> In practice you get the superb CES2310 which is not
>>>> sold by
>>>> is in a SOT23 package
>>>> 30V
>>>> 4.8A continuous.
>>>> 1.25W
Other
>> Really? 1.25W in an SOT23 pkg?  For how long?

Bob
> Less time than it takes to read this message?

I then went on to explain what the data sheet said. I won't
detail it here. Available in archives.
[[Entirely reasonable to look at that 1.25W figure. But it
is not quite as meaningless as may be imagined from the
above exchange]].

FWIW the CES2310 is one of the most marvellous MOSFETS
available in its class. It is one of the very few MOSFETs
available that can be driven well on 3 volt supplies without
gate voltage boosting circuits.

______________________________

Enough for now, I'm sure.

My mainest point is that I'd be rather suspicious at how
long the poacher notionally turned gamekeeper could be
relied on to remember he wasn't a poacher. Not that, from
what you say your intentions are, there's any suggestion of
a total change of heart.





       Russell

2008\06\12@074056 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Bob Blick wrote:

> But since you are challenging me, ...

Well, I didn't mean this to be a challenge, just a question. I mean, if
that question is a challenge, think about what administrating the list is
-- you'd have to answer this question quite a few times every day (to
yourself, but nonetheless...)

> ... please let me ask what it is about the piclist that you like ...

I like it the way it is.

> ... and also feel I would destroy. Because I think the piclist was better
> ten years ago and that's what I'm aiming for.

I think trying to impose a change against the collective will of the list
members (which is what basically forms the list) would destroy the list as
it is.

> How would I go about changing it? I guess with my powers of persuasion,

I don't have any problem with this. If people follow you, that's what it is
then. But I doubt that persuasion is enough... most seem to like it the way
it is, or else it would be different, so a sudden change would require some
kind of brute force. (Which is not to say it can't or won't change over
time.)

Gerhard

2008\06\12@120926 by Gaston Gagnon

face
flavicon
face

Bob Blick wrote:
> I'm not sure what you're trying to do. Are you challenging me just for
> the heck of it?
>  
I wish you'd have answered my reply to your assertions instead of being
aggressive. Of course I'm not challenging you for the heck of it. Let me
try to clear things a little.
You have intervened in a thread where the topic was, from the beginning,
whether Olin should be allowed to keep bashing "the lazy people that
deserve it" without being moderated.

You jumped in to offer your services as administrator to "fix" the list
so I presumed it was to fix the problem at hand - "Prevent Olin from
bashing members of the list".
>From there came my straight and forward question:

"As administrator, how will you prevent Olin from bashing other members of the list?

What do I get as answer? Mainly a run around on my use of the word "prevent". Nonetheless, I get the impression that you excuse and maybe approve of Olin's bullying behavior  :-(  
As for your agenda to become administrator, I read through your posts to Russel and Byron that the fixing you are referring to has not much to do with Olin's uncivil behavior but more with Russel posting. I concede that some people have problem swith this but it would be better, if it is what you want to fix, that you state it directly.

>  I don't understand your motivation for hassling me like
> this. I've been a member of the piclist for ten years and know how good
> it can be.
I know that you have been member for as long as I remember and I must
tell you that I never miss and always enjoyed reading your technical
contributions.
But from your intervention in this thread, it seems you are unaware of
Olin's past history with the list members before this /*[ADMIN]:Question
about member*/  thread started. You are offended to see people saying
what they think of Olin 's past behavior but what you are really seeing
is people reacting to Olin's past behavior of bullying and bashing and
trying to prevent it in the future. Prove me wrong.
> Your attitude is crummy.
This remark is undeserved, me thinks  :-[
> We need to unite and work together and repair the spirit of the
> piclist.
What is there to repair? Look, for example, at the variety and number of
PIC/EE threads, the number of answers to each and the number of
intervenors since the date this topic started. The list is as rich as
ever. And moreover, different people seem willing to ask questions and
volunteer solutions.
As far as I'm concerned this is a lot more desirable than a few
show-offs fighting for the most visibility and bashing the OP when the
question is not good enough for them to look brilliant.

Given time, everything can be found on the net. It is a matter of using
the right keyword and patience.  Everybody knows that. The best piclist
has someone /*expert enough*/ to help one save time by providing a hint
instead of the /*Real Expert*/ bashing you of laziness and giving you
the useless RTFM reply.

>  Please stop trying to pick a fight. It is not productive.
>
>  
This applies equally to everybody, I'm afraid ;-)

Regards,
Gaston
P.S. English not being my primary language, please forgive if my tone is
sometimes not appropriate.

{Quote hidden}

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