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'[AD] ProProg from Embedded Inc'
2005\03\31@105830 by Mauricio Jancic

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Forwarded message to the PICLIST. Please Olin reply off list and tell me to
wich address I can send emails to you directly. Thank you very much.

****************************************************************************
********************************************


Hi Olin,
       I'm Mauricio Jancic, from the Mit PICList. I would like to know if
the ProProg can program the PIC16F716 and if it can, how much time you
estimate it takes to program the chip and make multiple voltage
verifications. Also, is it possible to program each target board with just
pressing a button at the ProProg? With out any PC intervention? (of course
the software is being downloaded from the PC, but I don't want my employes
to have to touch anything on the computer once everything is set up.

Regards,

Mauricio Jancic
Janso Desarrollos - Microchip Consultants Program Member spam_OUTinfoTakeThisOuTspamjanso.com.ar
http://www.janso.com.ar
(54) 11 - 4542 - 3519

2005\03\31@114904 by icroControllerShop

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Hi Mauricio,
here is a PIC in-circuit programmer that does what you want:
 Supports PIC16F716; Press 1 button on the programmer and the target PIC
gets programmed,
plus it is only $135 ;-)

http://microcontrollershop.com/product_info.php?cPath=112_97&products_id=814

best regards
Volker
MicroController Pros Corporation
The MicroController and Embedded Systems Tool Store
http://microcontrollershop.com
+1-408-333-9266 Phone
+1-800-510-3609 Toll-free phone
+1-215-243-6071 Fax

At 12:58 PM 3/31/2005 -0300, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2005\03\31@122211 by Dave Tweed

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MicroControllerShop <salesspamKILLspammicrocontrollershop.com> wrote:
> At 12:58 PM 3/31/2005 -0300, you wrote:
> > I'm Mauricio Jancic, from the Mit PICList. I would like to know if
> > the ProProg can program the PIC16F716 and if it can, how much time
> > you estimate it takes to program the chip and make multiple voltage
> > verifications. Also, is it possible to program each target board with
> > just pressing a button at the ProProg? With out any PC intervention?
> > (of course the software is being downloaded from the PC, but I don't
> > want my employes to have to touch anything on the computer once
> > everything is set up.
>
> Hi Mauricio,
> here is a PIC in-circuit programmer that does what you want:
>   Supports PIC16F716; Press 1 button on the programmer and the target PIC
> gets programmed,
> plus it is only $135 ;-)
>
> http://microcontrollershop.com/product_info.php?cPath=112_97&products_id=814

Looks good, except that it doesn't appear to do Vcc margin testing during
verification.

-- Dave Tweed

2005\03\31@123411 by Mauricio Jancic

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Yes, it says only that it can work at the entire vdd range, but it doesn't
seem to do the verification automatically in all the vcc range... I just
posted a question to the manufacturer. I'll let you know.

Regards,
Mauricio Jancic
Janso Desarrollos - Microchip Consultants Program Member
.....infoKILLspamspam.....janso.com.ar
http://www.janso.com.ar
(54) 11 - 4542 - 3519


{Original Message removed}

2005\03\31@125235 by olin_piclist

face picon face
Mauricio Jancic wrote:
> I'm Mauricio Jancic, from the Mit PICList. I would like to know if
> the ProProg can program the PIC16F716 and if it can, how much time you
> estimate it takes to program the chip and make multiple voltage
> verifications. Also, is it possible to program each target board with
> just pressing a button at the ProProg? With out any PC intervention?
> (of course the software is being downloaded from the PC, but I don't
> want my employes to have to touch anything on the computer once
> everything is set up.

I sent a detailed reply to Mauricio offlist.  But in case anyone else is
wondering I haven't added support for the 16F716 yet but estimate the total
time to be under 10 seconds.

The 16F716 wasn't what I was thinking of doing next, but a customer with
money in hand is always welcome to rearrange the priorities ;-)


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

2005\03\31@134409 by icroControllerShop

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At 09:22 AM 3/31/2005 -0800, you wrote:
> > Hi Mauricio,
> > here is a PIC in-circuit programmer that does what you want:
> >   Supports PIC16F716; Press 1 button on the programmer and the target PIC
> > gets programmed,
> > plus it is only $135 ;-)
> >
> >
> http://microcontrollershop.com/product_info.php?cPath=112_97&products_id=814
>
>Looks good, except that it doesn't appear to do Vcc margin testing during
>verification.
>
>-- Dave Tweed

Dave,
this programmer is either powered from its own internal 5V supply or uses
the target boards
Vcc voltage. Verification is always done at the voltage selected.

To do Vcc margin testing would require to use the target board Vcc,
program and verify the chip at let's say the high margin voltage (by
powering target board at high margin voltage),
then switch the board's voltage to the low margin voltage and do a second
verify.

This of course defeats the one-button-push programming, as the second
verify would have to be done via the PC
software interface.

In 90+% of applications however the PIC is powered by a voltage regulator,
which means it always
runs at a single fixed voltage (+-10%). In those cases I would question the
need to do a verify at both
the min and max Vcc of the chip. IMHO this is only required if your
application uses the PIC over a wide voltage range.

best regards
Volker
MicroController Pros Corporation
The MicroController and Embedded Systems Tool Store
http://microcontrollershop.com
+1-408-333-9266 Phone
+1-800-510-3609 Toll-free phone
+1-215-243-6071 Fax

2005\03\31@141357 by Dave Tweed

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MicroControllerShop <EraseMEsalesspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTmicrocontrollershop.com> wrote:
> This of course defeats the one-button-push programming, as the second
> verify would have to be done via the PC software interface.

That's why your proposed solution is NOT a replacement for the ProProg,
which WILL do Vdd margin testing during verify from a single button push.

There are many reasons for doing margin testing, not all of which are
negated by doing the programming using the same regulator that will be
running the application.

-- Dave Tweed

2005\03\31@141617 by Mauricio Jancic

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Well, in this case it does. The pic is powered by a 4 1.2V battery pack, so
voltage range will be between 6 V and 2.5 (aprox). The PIC is actually
working but the customer is asking for a complete verification on the entire
VDD range... Would it be possible to fail this test? Why? Once the PIC is
programmed, if it is designed to work on a given Vdd range why would it fail
to verify??!

Regards,

Mauricio Jancic
Janso Desarrollos - Microchip Consultants Program Member
infospamspam_OUTjanso.com.ar
http://www.janso.com.ar
(54) 11 - 4542 - 3519


{Original Message removed}

2005\03\31@143842 by olin_piclist

face picon face
MicroControllerShop wrote:
> To do Vcc margin testing would require to use the target board Vcc,
> program and verify the chip at let's say the high margin voltage (by
> powering target board at high margin voltage),

No, you always program at the programming voltage, which on all the specs
I've looked at so far is 5V.  Verification is then done at the voltage
extremes for that particular target chip.

> In 90+% of applications however the PIC is powered by a voltage
> regulator, which means it always
> runs at a single fixed voltage (+-10%). In those cases I would question
> the need to do a verify at both
> the min and max Vcc of the chip. IMHO this is only required if your
> application uses the PIC over a wide voltage range.

Microchip distinguishes between "prototype" and "production" programmers by
whether they verify at the Vdd limits.  I'm sure they have their reasons and
don't plan to second guess this on any of my designs.  I imagine that if
nothing else, testing at the Vdd limits makes sure there is plenty of margin
if the operating voltage is fixed somewhere in the middle.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

2005\03\31@144505 by olin_piclist

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Mauricio Jancic wrote:
> Well, in this case it does. The pic is powered by a 4 1.2V battery
> pack, so voltage range will be between 6 V and 2.5 (aprox).

Are you sure 6V is within the PICs Vdd range?  I haven't checked the
particular PIC you are using, but most only go to 5.5V.  The maximum Vdd
voltage the ProProg can produce is 6V.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

2005\03\31@150653 by Mike Hord

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> Microchip distinguishes between "prototype" and "production" programmers by
> whether they verify at the Vdd limits.  I'm sure they have their reasons and
> don't plan to second guess this on any of my designs.  I imagine that if
> nothing else, testing at the Vdd limits makes sure there is plenty of margin
> if the operating voltage is fixed somewhere in the middle.

Does that then imply that production programmers CANNOT be ICSP, or
that if you intend to program a board with ICSP production programmers,
that you darn well better design it to survive the voltage excursion to 5.5V?

I don't think that makes much sense (although I *know* you're right about
that being the difference between proto and production programmers).  I'd
be annoyed at having to include extra components on a board to isolate
the programming Vdd rail from the rest of the circuit just so my PIC can
be verified at a voltage which would have destroyed the rest of the board
if it were to occur in usage anyway.

Mike H.

2005\03\31@152442 by icroControllerShop

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At 11:13 AM 3/31/2005 -0800, Dave Tweed wrote:
>MicroControllerShop <@spam@salesKILLspamspammicrocontrollershop.com> wrote:
> > This of course defeats the one-button-push programming, as the second
> > verify would have to be done via the PC software interface.
>
>That's why your proposed solution is NOT a replacement for the ProProg,
>which WILL do Vdd margin testing during verify from a single button push.
>

oohhwhoo, why the hostility? I did NOT claim that the Presto
does Vdd margin testing, nor that it is a fully equivalent replacement for
the ProProg.

I presented it as a possible alternative that DOES fulfill both of the
requirements
stated in the email by Mauricio:
1.) Support for PIC16F617, which the ProProg doesn't have BTW, so there you
go... ;-)
2.) single push button programming

Nowhere in Mauricio's email to which I responded was the requirement
for Vcc margin verification mentioned. If it would have been, I would not
have suggested this
programmer or I would have put in the disclaimer that it does not do margin
verification
with single push button operation

On the issue of margin verification we can discuss this until never-never
day. Fact is
that many people around the world do production programming and verify only
at a single
voltage.
If a manufacturer has their FLASH process under control, it does not impact
field reliability. Margin verification only then becomes important when the
FLASH process runs out of spec
AND the device is operated at the speced operating limits AND those
devices' speced operating limits
do not provide enough safety margin to the Flash process margins. It's a
"cover your butt" requirement
put in the ICSP spec by Microchip, for which reason even most programmers
at 5...10x the price
do not implement margin verification.

So in the end doing margin verification is a question of how safety
critical your application is
under which environment it has to perform, how trusting you are into
Microchip's process controls
and how paranoid you are about possible field failures.
This is something each designer/manufacturer  has to decide for themselves.


best regards
Volker
MicroController Pros Corporation
The MicroController and Embedded Systems Tool Store
http://microcontrollershop.com
+1-408-333-9266 Phone
+1-800-510-3609 Toll-free phone
+1-215-243-6071 Fax

2005\03\31@153104 by olin_piclist

face picon face
Mike Hord wrote:
> Does that then imply that production programmers CANNOT be ICSP,

No.

> or
> that if you intend to program a board with ICSP production programmers,
> that you darn well better design it to survive the voltage excursion to
> 5.5V?

Yes. There can be significant interactions between ICSP and the target
circuit.  It's usually not too bad to deal with if taken into consideration
up front, but it's not something you can easily slap on at the last minute.

The toughest ones I've had to deal with so far have been a few 10F designs.
These things have only 6 pins, and 5 of them are needed for programming.  A
real annoyance with these is that the internal pullup on MCLR can't be
disabled when the pin is configured as MCLR (it can be just an input pin
too).  The circuit must tolerate this pin being raised to 13V.  That
procludes driving it directly from another logic output, but if you put a
resistor in series you have a voltage divider if you want it to be MCLR.  A
couple of times now I've had to implement the reset function by configuring
that pin as just an input, and performing the reset function by polling it
in the firmware.  I don't think Microchip thought this all the way thru.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

2005\03\31@153636 by icroControllerShop

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At 03:59 PM 3/31/2005 -0300, Mauricio Jancic wrote:
>Well, in this case it does. The pic is powered by a 4 1.2V battery pack, so
>voltage range will be between 6 V and 2.5 (aprox). The PIC is actually
>working but the customer is asking for a complete verification on the entire
>VDD range... Would it be possible to fail this test? Why? Once the PIC is
>programmed, if it is designed to work on a given Vdd range why would it fail
>to verify??!

Flash cells can be "marginally" programmed and flip over
if operated at a voltage that is different from what used to program the Flash.
This however only happens in practice if during production of the chips the
process runs outside of its specified parameters (i.e the manufacturer'
process controls
are not good/sufficient) of if the device datasheet specs do not leave
enough safety margin
for slight process variations (i.e the manufacturer is pushing the
datasheet spec to the limit of
what the process is actually capable off.)

Interestingly enough this "flip" over effect can happen ANYWHERE in the Vcc
operating
band (let's say at 3.76V, but not a 5V, not at 2V and not at 3.7 V) , so
just verifying at Vccmin and Vccmax
does not guarantee you anything.
If you wanted to be 100% sure you had to sweep the entire Vcc range
over which your application operates and verify the Flash contents.

best regards
Volker
MicroController Pros Corporation
The MicroController and Embedded Systems Tool Store
http://microcontrollershop.com
+1-408-333-9266 Phone
+1-800-510-3609 Toll-free phone
+1-215-243-6071 Fax

2005\03\31@153844 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Does that then imply that production programmers CANNOT be ICSP, or
> that if you intend to program a board with ICSP production
> programmers,
> that you darn well better design it to survive the voltage
> excursion to 5.5V?

A production programmer must be used to verify at the voltage extremes
at which you wnat your product to function. You specify those extremes.
Of course it makes no sense to verify beyond what the rest of your
circuit can handle.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\03\31@155515 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
>> That's why your proposed solution is NOT
>> a replacement for the ProProg

> oohhwhoo, why the hostility?
> I presented it as a possible alternative that DOES fulfill
> both of the requirements stated in the email by Mauricio:
> 1.) Support for PIC16F617, which the ProProg doesn't have
> 2.) single push button programming
>
> Nowhere in Mauricio's email to which I responded was the requirement
> for Vcc margin verification mentioned.

Are we talking about the same Maurice who asked (check last sentence):

> I'm Mauricio Jancic, from the Mit PICList.
> I would like to know if the ProProg can program the
> PIC16F716 and if it can, how much time you
> estimate it takes to program the chip and make multiple
> voltage verifications.

> On the issue of margin verification we can discuss this until
> never-never day.

AFAIK multi-Vcc verification is a left-over from the EPROM times. I
recall some semi-official statement from Microchip stating this. But
there are good reasons for multi-voltage verification:
- cover your ass. this might seem a joke, untill you end up in court
- the above 'statement' from Microchip was probably true at the time it
was issued, but since it was not official it will not be revoked when
some new technique in FLASH implementation makes multi-level
verification important again

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\03\31@164605 by icroControllerShop

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At 10:53 PM 3/31/2005 +0200, Wouter van Ooijen
wrote:

>Are we talking about the same Maurice who asked (check last sentence):
>
> > I'm Mauricio Jancic, from the Mit PICList.
> > I would like to know if the ProProg can program the
> > PIC16F716 and if it can, how much time you
> > estimate it takes to program the chip and make multiple
> > voltage verifications.

Mea Culpa. I guess I should not immediately delete messages after
I've read them, so I can go back and double check. The multi voltage
verification part escaped me.


best regards
Volker
MicroController Pros Corporation
The MicroController and Embedded Systems Tool Store
http://microcontrollershop.com
+1-408-333-9266 Phone
+1-800-510-3609 Toll-free phone
+1-215-243-6071 Fax


'[AD] ProProg from Embedded Inc'
2005\04\01@031129 by ThePicMan
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At 14.38 2005.03.31 -0500, you wrote:
>Microchip distinguishes between "prototype" and "production" programmers by
>whether they verify at the Vdd limits.  I'm sure they have their reasons and
>don't plan to second guess this on any of my designs.  I imagine that if
>nothing else, testing at the Vdd limits makes sure there is plenty of margin
>if the operating voltage is fixed somewhere in the middle.

Yes, but if in my device I use a nice 5V regulator, do I really ever need a
"production" programmer?

2005\04\01@065721 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Yes, but if in my device I use a nice 5V regulator, do I
> really ever need a "production" programmer?

That's up to you. If you would use a production programmer you should
set the extremes at the tolerances of the regulator, probably 4.5 and
5.5 Volt.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


2005\04\02@035550 by ThePicMan

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At 13.55 2005.04.01 +0200, you wrote:
>> Yes, but if in my device I use a nice 5V regulator, do I
>> really ever need a "production" programmer?
>
>That's up to you. If you would use a production programmer you should
>set the extremes at the tolerances of the regulator, probably 4.5 and
>5.5 Volt.

I very much doubt that the 7805 family (just to name the most probable
regulator used) has a 1000 mV tolerance..

2005\04\02@043951 by Russell McMahon

face
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>>That's up to you. If you would use a production programmer you
>>should
>>set the extremes at the tolerances of the regulator, probably 4.5
>>and
>>5.5 Volt.

> I very much doubt that the 7805 family (just to name the most
> probable
> regulator used) has a 1000 mV tolerance..

Pretty close !!! / You may be surprised.

The 7805 / LM340 is not a nice regulator by modern standards.
It's +/- 0.35v for 8v < Vin  < 20v and load range 5 ma - 1 A.
The former is PROBABLY not likely, depending on application and the
latter is quite possible during some systems' extremes. That's at the
regulator, of course, leaving you 0.15v leeway to where-ever the "5v"
goes. How much drop you get at the PIC depends on your design.

And the above is NOT including variation with junction temperature.
Throw that in as well and you can probably expect some designs to meet
the + or - 0.5v excursion from nominal. Not every design, but you do
need to be sure that it's not your one if you haven't tested the
processors at the extremes of possible voltage.



               RM

2005\04\02@090228 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> >That's up to you. If you would use a production programmer you should
> >set the extremes at the tolerances of the regulator, probably 4.5 and
> >5.5 Volt.
>
> I very much doubt that the 7805 family (just to name the most probable
> regulator used) has a 1000 mV tolerance..

I don't design according to your (or mine, or anyone elses) doubts, but
from the datasheet. First google on 7805 leads to
http://cache.national.com/ds/LM/LM341.pdf. Output voltage is specced at
4.75 .. 5.25. There is some babble about line regulation and load
regulation (which I think are both included in these figures), and
long-term stability (which I think is not). I didn't immediately spot
something about temperature stability, so that might be an (additional)
catch. I use 'unspecified manufacturer' 7805's, so +/- 10% seems a good
worst-case assumption.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu



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