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'[AD]: PIC16F877 Boot Loader Kit (International Shi'
2002\06\25@174358 by Daniel Rubin

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Hopefully this is of interest to some of you on the list...

As a test run I am going to offer international shipping (from the US) on
my boot loader PIC16F877 programming kit that is currently on Ebay.   The
Ebay item number is
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1744366727 and I am
offering 20 kits with the international shipping option.   Domestic
shipping is $4.50 for USPS priority mail and international shipping is
$10.00 for UPSP Global Priority Service.

I also still have a quantity of 4 MHZ PIC16F877 40 pin DIP chips (microchip
part no. PIC16F877-04/P)
to sell at $6.50 each.  If anyone wants one or more of these please send me
email and I'll also ship them out internationally.  The international
shipping rate for these will be $10.00 also (for up to 10) via USPS Global
Priority.  Paypal payments only on these.  Please email your order to me
first and I'll send over a total.

Thanks
- Dan



{Quote hidden}

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2002\06\25@191050 by Brandon Stewart

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Hey, what a rip off.  Boot loaders are free, and its not hard for people to
find a pre-burned chip with one for a lot cheaper!  Also, This list is not
here for commercial purposes or your own financial gain!







{Original Message removed}

2002\06\25@192642 by Brendan Moran

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If you actually go throught he link he provided, you'll find that he is
offering slightly more than the '877.  You'll notice that the original
message said "kit"  There was a reason for that.  Here's the kit contents
from the ebay site.

"In addition to the PIC16F877 microcontroller, the kit also includes one 20
Mhz ceramic resonator with a special breadboard socket, one MAX232 serial
conversion chip, one 5 volt regulator, one reset switch, two LEDs, one 9
volt battery clip, one serial cable with breadboard compatible endpoints and
a handfull of supporting resistors and capacitors. Everything you need to
setup the microcontroller for programming and development work on a standard
breadboard (available at Radio Shack) is included."

I know that the Technological Arts evaluation board for the MC68HC12B32 that
I had to buy for a course (and consisted of little more than is shown here)
cost me $150 CAN  About 100USD.

The only real difference between the two is that the technological arts one
was already build on a PCB, and the HC12 costs about 20USD, and considering
that the HC12 was in the LQFP package, that's not a big surprise.

--Brendan
{Original Message removed}

2002\06\25@194335 by Jinx

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> Also, This list is not here for commercial purposes or your
> own financial gain!

It can be - that's what the [AD] tag is for

And who on this list doesn't gain, commercially or spiritually,
directly or indirectly ? You could say that EVERY thread has
commercial implications. Then what do you do ?

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2002\06\25@195607 by John Brown

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>And who on this list doesn't gain ... spiritually

Ummm, let me see, everybody?!

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2002\06\25@201858 by Daniel Rubin

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Brandon,

I am sorry you are upset with the posting.  From reading the intro to the
list I thought posting ads was ok if you put [AD] in the subject.

I think the cost of the kit is reasonable.   If you were to purchase all
the included parts in single item quantities it would probably cost you
more than $19...   not to mention the intangible costs for designing and
supporting the boot loader.

- Dan

At 07:06 PM 6/25/02 -0400, you wrote:
>Hey, what a rip off.  Boot loaders are free, and its not hard for people to
>find a pre-burned chip with one for a lot cheaper!  Also, This list is not
>here for commercial purposes or your own financial gain!



-- Design Devices, http://www.designdevices.com
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2002\06\25@204020 by Jinx

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> >And who on this list doesn't gain ... spiritually
>
> Ummm, let me see, everybody?!

You did mean "does gain" not "doesn't gain" ? I hope ;-)

> its not hard for people to find a pre-burned chip with one
> for a lot cheaper!

That might be debatable - some people are in countries
that don't have easy access to all manner of things electronic.
Flip, even here in an "advanced" country like New Zealand
I have trouble getting parts that, dare I say privileged, folk in
other places can get with a quick phone call or a short trip

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2002\06\25@215200 by Brandon Stewart

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I apologize.  That was a quick and irrational reply that I made earlier, and
I was actually upset at other issues when I made that post.  After reading
all that is included.. It is a fair deal.  And I DID miss the AD tag.  I was
totally wrong in every way!  My thoughts were that aside from purchasing the
PIC chip, all of the other parts are very cheap, or even free if you invest
a little time.  RS232 converter chips and others are free from Maxim!  But
there again, I am a real do it yourself person with a vast collection of
parts.  I take this for granted.


==> So, again... I hope that you will accept my apology Daniel!  And sorry
for wasting everyone else's time reading it!


I know this is a huge change in tone from my last post, but I am actually
glad there are people out there that offer better and more reasonable ($$)
alternatives to the junk kits that Radio Shack provides!

Regards,
Brandon



{Original Message removed}

2002\06\25@224322 by Herbert Graf

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That's a little cruel. While what you speak of is free the hardware in his
KIT is not, and for a complete beginner the thought of figuring all of this
out on your own is more then some are willing to do. TTYL

> {Original Message removed}

2002\06\25@233655 by Dale Botkin

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On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, Brandon Stewart wrote:

> Hey, what a rip off.  Boot loaders are free, and its not hard for people to
> find a pre-burned chip with one for a lot cheaper!  Also, This list is not
> here for commercial purposes or your own financial gain!

First off, the value of a product or service is whatever people are
willing to pay for it.  I'm sure Mr. Rubin will be able to find customers
for his products.  Not all bootloaders are free, and you will find similar
packages sold by many individuals and companies.  If Mr. Rubin has
bootloader code and documentation that he created, he's perfectly able to
set a price on that code and documentation, along with whatever else is
included in the kit.

Second, if you will notice, Mr. Rubin properly tagged his message using
the [AD]: topic tag.  Any list member is free to advertise PIC related
products or services, within reason, as long as the message is properly
tagged.  If you do not wish to see these messages, I suggest you visit the
PICList web site at http://www.piclist.com/ and read up on topic tag
filtering; you can have the list server not deliver these messages to you.
In any case, please refrain from complaining onm the list, it wastes
bandwidth and people's time.  If you have a problem with a message posted
to the list and feel compelled to complain, do it via private email to the
poster or the list admins.

Thanks.

Dale Botkin
PICList ADmin

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2002\06\26@020808 by uter van ooijen & floortje hanneman

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> Hey, what a rip off.  Boot loaders are free, and its not hard for people
to
> find a pre-burned chip with one for a lot cheaper!  Also, This list is not
> here for commercial purposes or your own financial gain!

It is, provided that the [AD]: (which was specified on the subject line!) is
PIC (or at least EE?) -related. And a bootloader can be great for people who
do not have a programmer.... I provide a free bootloader design (WLoader), I
sell PIC chips, and quite a number of 16f877's are sold with the bootloader
inside...

Wouter van Ooijen
--
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
Jal compiler, Wisp programmer, WLoader bootloader, PICs kopen

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2002\06\26@033648 by Alan B. Pearce

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>RS232 converter chips and others are free from Maxim!

Only if you get two samples. Any more than that and you pay.

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2002\06\26@033902 by Alan B. Pearce

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>I apologize.  That was a quick and irrational reply
>that I made earlier, and I was actually upset at
>other issues when I made that post.  After reading
>all that is included.. It is a fair deal.
>And I DID miss the AD tag.

The best way to minimise the upset and make the most of the tags is to have
your mail reader filter the tags into different boxes. Makes reading your
mail a lot easier, and helps keep topics together, along with prioritising
the order you read them.

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2002\06\26@041115 by Peter L. Peres

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On Wed, 26 Jun 2002, Jinx wrote:

>> Also, This list is not here for commercial purposes or your
>> own financial gain!
>
>It can be - that's what the [AD] tag is for
>
>And who on this list doesn't gain, commercially or spiritually,
>directly or indirectly ? You could say that EVERY thread has
>commercial implications. Then what do you do ?

Post empty messages with as short a message as possible crammed in the
subject to reduce the amount of information de enemy can deduce as much as
possible, of course.

Peter

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2002\06\26@073741 by Olin Lathrop

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> Hey, what a rip off.  Boot loaders are free, and its not hard for people
to
> find a pre-burned chip with one for a lot cheaper!

There are certainly free ones out there, and it's not even that hard to
write your own.  We have our own, although we don't give it away for free.
I suspect he won't get any takers.

> Also, This list is not
> here for commercial purposes or your own financial gain!

Actually, I think it is allowed as long as it's tagged with [AD], which it
was.  I'm sure an admin will correct me if I'm wrong.

In short, yes I agree its a ripoff which he will probably discover shortly.
However, if you don't want these kinds of messages then its up to you to
shut off the [AD] channel.  I wouldn't want to see one of these every day,
but for now I find it entertaining.


*****************************************************************
Embed Inc, embedded system specialists in Littleton Massachusetts
(978) 742-9014, http://www.embedinc.com

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2002\06\26@160139 by Daniel Rubin

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Rip Off... very interesting take on this?  I set the price for the kit at
what it would cost to purchase all the components single quantities.  If I
sold 1000 a week I could probably sell these kits for $13 or $14 and do it
full time.  But that is not going to happen.  I don't want to waste
bandwidth on this thread, but I have to at least defend my kit from the 2
messages to the list stating this thing is a rip off..

At Digikey:

PIC16F877/20: $9.88
MAX232: $1.60
Resonator: $.81
LM7805: $.59
Reset Switch: $.49
Batter Clip: $.29
All other stuff: $.50

That's just over $14.  If you add $5 for a serial cable (I dare you to find
one cheaper at your local computer store) that totals $19.

If you did buy all of this from Digikey you would also have to add $5
handling fee to the order since it totalled under $25.

I figured if I purchase this stuff in larger quantities I might be able to
make some money while saving others some time (see the story below).  It
turns out that I spend about 15 minutes putting this kit together in
programming/testing the PIC, cutting/bending the resonator socket,
stripping/soldering pins to the serial cable, sorting/packing all the
parts, printing the manual, writing the floppy, printing a shipping label
packing it all up.   I have tried to do it faster but it seems to always
take me just about a hour to get four of them ready to ship.   I make about
$7 on each kit I sell.  So the best I could do is $28 an hour and that is
assuming once the kit is shipped out I don't spend any more time on it..  I
only sell about 5 or 6 of these kits a week so that is an extra $35 a
week.  Not really worth the effort and the up front cost of the inventory.

THE STORY

If you don't want to read a long story about how this kit came about I
would just delete this message now.

When I started with the PIC I purchased a 16F877 and a Warp-13 programmer
(very good product by the way) for the heart of a stepper
controller.   That set me back about $100.  Now I could program the PIC,
but I needed more parts to do anything else with it.

I did some searching and determined I needed a crystal, voltage regulator,
some caps and resistors.   I went to radio shack and purchased everything
except the crystal (they had to order that and it would take over a week).
The parts I did purchase at radio shack cost over $5!  I would recommend
you use Radio Shack only as a last resort for anything.

After more research I found that I could use a ceramic resonator instead of
a crystal and 2 caps.    Digikey had the part for less than $1 but they
have a minimum order of $25 unless you want to pay a $5 handling fee.  I
did what any other electronics tinkerer would do and bought a bunch of
stuff I didn't really need to bring my order up to $25.  The parts arrived
in 4 days and I was good to go.

After playing around with MPLAB I realized that I would be doing a lot of
re-programming to get this thing right and I remembered reading about a
boot loader that allowed these chips to reprogram themselves.  I thought
that would be a great idea because I was already planning on using a serial
interface to talk to the controller and I would not need to move the PIC
back and forth from the development board to the Warp-13 while learning how
to program the PIC.  I looked into it further and found the Microchip
application note AN732.  It described what I wanted to do, but used 2
precious pins for hardware flow control.  I figured I would modify it to
use some sort of software flow control after getting the example in that
application note working.

By diving into this boot loader idea I realized, sooner rather than later,
I would need something like a MAX232 to connect the PIC to a PC.  Since
that chip is another part not available at the local Radio Shack I had to
buy another $25 worth of stuff at Digikey to get it.  It arrived and I set
it all up on my breadboard, created a MPLAB project and loaded up the
example code from the AN732.  Well that code did not work at all... It
drove me nuts because I didn't know if my circuit on the breadboard was
wrong or the code was just broken.  I dug into it further on the
net.  Turns out there is much more to serial communication on a PIC than
what is described in AN732.  After many more hours of frustration I finally
wrote serial routines that worked and got the thing to program itself using
software flow control.   I then worked on a simple c-based DOS program to
do the hexfile upload... another 4 hours of work... gotta hate DOS programming!

So after over $150 and many hours of work I have finally had a boot loader
enabled PIC.

When I got everything working I thought this might be a good idea to
package up save others some time.  It was not until after I got the motor
controller done I decided offer all of this work in kit form for a lot less
than what it cost me.

- Dan

At 07:36 AM 6/26/02 -0400, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2002\06\26@161345 by Brendan Moran

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Personally, if I had seen this before I built my Tait-style programmer when
I was getting started with PICs, I would have gone for it, being used to the
MC68HC12 Eval board as a development environment (no big difference in
concept).

But that's just me.

--Brendan
{Original Message removed}

2002\06\26@161807 by Albert Clark

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I think this is a good idea and not a rip off

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2002\06\26@163249 by David P. Harris

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Good for you Rubin -- nice to see someone take some initiative.  Just the fact you got
all the parts together is useful.
David

Daniel Rubin wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2002\06\26@191122 by John Dammeyer

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I second what David has said.

If I could offer my RF CAN modules for $5.95 I would too but between the
cost of boards, components and automated board stuffing I can't seem to
get cost down below about $99.  For an RF solution for hobbyists that's
too expensive.  For someone who wants CAN bus over RF and needs the peer
to peer networking via a SPI bus connection it's not a bad price.

John Dammeyer

Wireless CAN with the CANRF module.
www.autoartisans.com/documents/canrf_prod_announcement.pdf
Automation Artisans Inc.
Ph. 1 250 544 4950


> {Original Message removed}

2002\06\27@185358 by Tony Nixon

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Daniel Rubin wrote:
>
> Rip Off... very interesting take on this?  I set the price for the kit at
> what it would cost to purchase all the components single quantities.

Hi Daniel,

I wouldn't take the negative comments to heart.

I've been selling very low volume kits for a few years now, and I, (and
others on this list no doubt), know first hand how hard it is to come up
with something cheap and on a small scale.

Keep it up and soldier on. The financial rewards can be slim pickin's
but the personal satisfaction is high.

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Tony

mICros
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@spam@salesKILLspamspambubblesoftonline.com

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