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PICList Thread
'[ADMIN] Sender ID'
1998\06\26@044601 by Paul BRITTON

There has been some traffic on the list recently (and previously) about
being able to determine who posted a message, here's what I did......

Send a message to 'spam_OUTLISTSERVTakeThisOuTmitvma.mit.edu', with no title, in the body of
the message put 'SET PICLIST DUAL'...this will make all Piclist messages
have 5 lines at the top that contain subject and senders name......you
can't use ReplyTo: to send a personal email back, but you can cut and
paste from the message, even if they don't use a signature line.


For other LISTSERV commands send to '.....LISTSERVKILLspam@spam@mitvma.mit.edu', a message
saying 'INFO REFCARD', I won't include the response here, because some
already know, and others don't care!


TTFN
Paul BRITTON

1999\07\26@134725 by Mark Willis

1999\09\28@214007 by Sean H. Breheny

AMEN! I think we would all be happier if we exercised the delete key more
often when there is excess content that we don't want to read! I agree,that
there should be fewer WAY-OT messages,but I do not think that any radical
solution will produce a better situation than we have.

In addition, I want to BEG Bob and Tjaart not to leave the list. I have
found both of them very helpful and I feel that the piclist would not BE
the same if they leave.

Sean


At 07:48 PM 9/28/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Friends,
>
>I've been following the debate regarding OT messages. In fact, I've been
>terribly busy of late and the debate is the only thread I've been watching.
>Why ? Because I care what happens to the PICLIST.  I even considered
[SNIP]
|
| Sean Breheny
| Amateur Radio Callsign: KA3YXM
| Electrical Engineering Student
\--------------=----------------
Save lives, please look at http://www.all.org
Personal page: http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/shb7
shb7KILLspamcornell.edu ICQ #: 3329174

1999\09\28@215521 by Peter van Hoof

1999\09\28@235702 by Andy Kunz

At 09:53 PM 9/28/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>This list is already (on a small scale) moderated.
>Didn't it surprise you that, on the last extremely off topic and religious
>topic there where NO REPLY'S , at least not on the list!

Maybe not after a while, but early on there were.  I got several of them,
to which I always replied private.

Andy

==================================================================
Eternity is only a heartbeat away - are you ready?  Ask me how!
------------------------------------------------------------------
.....andyKILLspam.....rc-hydros.com      http://www.rc-hydros.com     - Race Boats
EraseMEandyspam_OUTTakeThisOuTmontanadesign.com  http://www.montanadesign.com - Electronics
==================================================================

1999\09\29@011033 by Mark Willis

Nope;  Moderation specifically means that each & every message anyone
posts to the list, has to be approved by a moderator before any other
PICList members view it.

Think of it like, "Every message starts off deleted, unless one of the
moderators feels like undeleting it."

You'd know how busy the moderators were by how many messages they
released daily, in bursts when they were available online, and the huge
lags when they were busy.  It'd take about 10 people to make it work,
I'd guess?

Moderation is like customs:  An impassable choke point.  Not what *I*
want here <G>

What we have is a list full of people who (mostly) exercise
SELF-control, more or less <G>, and 2 admins who have the ability to
read all messages posted to the list eventually, and delete users who go
way out of line (I think I've deleted 2 whole users for that, maybe 3?)
- OTOH, I've deleted about 80 users at their request, when their ISP
changed (for example, userspam_OUTisp1.com suddenly had to re-subscribe to
@spam@userKILLspamnewmail.isp1a.com due to a merger, etc. - or they changed ISP's due
to an ISP closing or changing jobs - etc.)  Maybe more 'n 80;  With 2
lists, it'd be 150 deletions, give or take.  (Wild Guesses, I can go
count but'd rather not!)

 Mark

Peter van Hoof wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>
> This list is already (on a small scale) moderated.
> Didn't it surprise you that, on the last extremely off topic and religious
> topic there where NO REPLY'S , at least not on the list!
>
> (I WAS ONE OF THE POSTER'S OF A REPLY)
>
> Peter
>
> > Creating a newsgroup, moderating the list, or splitting the list
> > up all will
> > produce negative side effects.  I'm willing to bet on it.
> > Valuable members
> > will leave the list. Valuable content will go unpublished.

1999\09\29@055201 by Peter van Hoof

1999\09\29@074040 by Max Toole

In a message dated 9/28/99 9:17:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
KILLspamericKILLspamKEDCOENT.COM writes:

> Friends,
>
>  I've been following the debate regarding OT messages. In fact, I've been
>  terribly busy of late and the debate is the only thread I've been watching.
>  Why ? Because I care what happens to the PICLIST.  I even considered
>  unsubscribing to eliminate the traffic in my inbox, but can't bear to do
so.
>  I won't always be this busy, and I hope to return to a list that is the
same
{Quote hidden}

>  as when I left it.
>
>  We live in an imperfect world.  This list is comprised of over 1800 members
>  at last count. On any given day, you can almost gaurantee that someone will
>  mess up.  Forget to put [OT] on the subject, flame because they're having a
>  bad day, reply publicly when they intended to reply privately, and the list
>  goes on.  This is life.
>
>  As humans, we seem to be driven by the need to fix things.  Trouble is,
>  sometimes "broken" is a matter of opinion.  I agree that the PICLIST is not
>  perfect and there are messages that _I_ find annoying or unnecessary too.
>  Know what ? I delete them. BOOM ! 1/2 second later, they're gone.
>
>  What really disturbs me is that, if we "fix" the PICLIST, we will break it.
>  Possibly permanently.  As an analogy, consider well meaning public
>  officials. How many times have we all seen this ?  A leader, or group,
>  perceives there is a problem in our society. So they fix it.  Trouble is,
>  the "fix" produces undesirable ramifications. Possibly worse than the
>  original problem. Rather than admit that they made a mistake, they simply
>  attempt to fix the new problems. Before long, they have destroyed or
>  rendered what they were trying to fix as useless.
>
>  Creating a newsgroup, moderating the list, or splitting the list up all

will
{Quote hidden}

>  produce negative side effects.  I'm willing to bet on it.  Valuable members
>  will leave the list. Valuable content will go unpublished.
>
>  So I say again. Tolerance and self restraint will cure this list. And only
>  you can make it happen.
>
>  P.S. Mark, you once suggested using topics like the one in my subject line
>  to aid in filtering. Only problem is, there's never been any official
>  guidlines.  If you could post some guidlines, I'll be more than happy to
>  follow them.
>
>  Eric

Well said, Eric.  I agree whole heartedly.

By the way, are you in politics?  If not, maybe you should be.  I just might
vote for you  :-)

Max

1999\09\30@190721 by Mark Willis

Greetings
If the list manager supports requiring something in brackets or the mail
gets rejected, I have absolutely NO problems supporting its use.  Just need
to regularly publish guidelines for the newbies and for the regulars who
forget--I just found out about the suggested use of [admin] for list
management comments such as this.  When I signed on, there was NO
information provided on suggested list usage--just sort of had to figure
out things as I went along.

Obvious problem are people who won't use the key words in brackets
according to the guideline conventions--

I would like to chat with Mark or Jory a bit about this off-list if
possible--con su permisso.

Kelly




At 10:52 AM 10/12/99 -0300, you wrote:
>Mark,
>
>I like this. You have to FORCE people into using proper categories markers
>in the subject line. Only tell us WHEN this starts working...
>
>Regards,
>Andres Tarzia
>Technology Consultant, SMART S.A.
>e-mail: RemoveMEatarziaTakeThisOuTsmart.com.ar
>
>{Original Message removed}

'[Admin] PICList content not as bad as it appears -'
1999\10\12@165632 by Morgan Olsson

>Hey Mark, what is the real possibilities to implement a customized
>profile at the listserver for the list members? So one can program not
>to receive [Fluff] messages? and so on...  I think this should be a real
>"boost", since it saves traffic time at the listserv and solve forever
>this "mail filters" at member's mail engines.
>
>Wagner

Very good idea =)
then we can select what to not to have at all,
filter it in our mail programs
or looking manually.

Saving internet connection time money too :)

I also like Kelly«s idea about information message.
It have also been mentionned before, an idea about regularly sending out info to subscribers.
Or maybe the server just append an URL like http://www.piclistrules.com to end of each sent message.

my 5 oere
/Morgan
Morgans Reglerteknik, HŠllekŒs, 277 35 KIVIK, SWEDEN
  tel +46(0)414-446620, fax -70331,   spamBeGonemrtspamBeGoneiname.com

'[admin] Re: PICList content not as bad as it appea'
1999\10\12@184637 by Simon Redwood

Reply To: "Simon Redwood" <TakeThisOuTspredwoodEraseMEspam_OUTsri-net.demon.co.uk>
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL37 (25)]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 927


Kelly wrote:

{Quote hidden}

>
> If the list manager supports requiring something in brackets or the mail
> gets rejected, I have absolutely NO problems supporting its use.  Just need
> to regularly publish guidelines for the newbies and for the regulars who
> forget--I just found out about the suggested use of [admin] for list
> management comments such as this.  When I signed on, there was NO
> information provided on suggested list usage--just sort of had to figure
> out things as I went along.
>
> Obvious problem are people who won't use the key words in brackets
> according to the guideline conventions--
>

Yeah fine, I have no problems with using the 'guideline conventions' if I
knew what they were that is.  I'm pretty new to the list, and have really
only noticed OT - which I presume if "OFF-TOPIC"
--
Regards,
Simon

{ ICQ#:         12229096                        }
{ Email:        RemoveMEspredwoodTakeThisOuTsri-net.demon.co.uk   }
{ Internet:     http://www.sri-net.demon.co.uk         }

1999\11\07@010726 by Wagner Lipnharski

1999\11\07@024645 by William J. Kitchen

1999\11\07@034821 by Mark Willis

'[Admin] PICList I/O Port addressing lesson #1'
1999\11\08@204631 by Mark Willis

Folks, the PICList has 3 "I/O Ports".  Seems I need to remind some
people how they're used.

* Posting messages to the "PICList Mail Distribution port", at
<PICListEraseME.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU>, causes that message to be distributed to all
1800+ members of the PICList  (Those who don't have NoMail set),  who
then read your post and make snide comments if you posted to the wrong
address.

* Posting messages to the "PICList Administration Port", at
<EraseMEPICList-RequestMITVMA.MIT.EDU>, causes that message to be distributed
to all admins of the PICList  {Jory + Myself, right now}, who then read
your post & try to help.

* Posting messages to the "PICList Command Input Port", at
<RemoveMELISTSERVEraseMEEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU>, causes that message to be treated as a
command by the listserve software, THIS and ONLY THIS is the address to
send Unsubscribe requests, Set NoMail requests, and so forth.  The
listserve software ONLY listens here for commands, you can send them to
those other "ports" all you want, and all you'll get is a copy back from
the machine, telling you you've made a mistake.

Same as on a PIC chip, using the wrong port for the wrong purpose may
result in unintended consequences, like annoyed list neighbors or
flustrated admins.

The ListServe machine is even simpler than ANY PIC;  It doesn't take all
that much learning to add the capability to handle these 3 I/O ports and
to learn the few commands that the third port takes, especially compared
to the relatively huge complexity that the simplest PIC chip poses by
comparison! <G>

 Mark

--
I do small package shipping for small businesses, world-wide.

1999\11\08@211211 by Dave VanHorn

1999\11\08@211619 by Mark Willis

1999\11\08@211831 by Nick Taylor

1999\11\08@212700 by Dave VanHorn

1999\11\08@212713 by Sean Breheny

Make sure that after you've robbed the first bank, you "switch banks before
accessing the contents of the the register" <VBEG>

Sean

At 06:15 PM 11/8/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Not even that!  (Besides, the last time I was coding in a bank, the
>security guy came over & asked me to move along, pronto! <G>)
>
>  Mark
>
>--
>I do small package shipping for small businesses, world-wide.
>
|
| Sean Breheny
| Amateur Radio Callsign: KA3YXM
| Electrical Engineering Student
\--------------=----------------
Save lives, please look at http://www.all.org
Personal page: http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/shb7
RemoveMEshb7spam_OUTKILLspamcornell.edu ICQ #: 3329174

1999\11\08@212721 by Dave VanHorn

'[Admin] PICList Administrativa'
1999\11\09@004842 by Alfred Siu

'[ADMIN] Weird problems subscribing, please help'
1999\11\11@045815 by Sten Dahlgren

Hello !

I'm about to switch my subscribtion over to my home computer/ISP
but has some serious problems.
When i try to subscribe from my home ISP i don't get any replys
no nothing, i have tried to send info and help requests to but
no response at all. From work i tried the change command to move
it over and then i get a mail sent to home that i should reply
with an "ok #######" message and then i get a response to home with
a new request to send an ok but with another number. At the same time
i get a reply to work with a comment like this.

Your  request cannot  be processed  because the  confirmation came
from
RemoveMEstdaTakeThisOuTspamD1O41.TELIA.COM rather  than EraseMEsten.dahlgrenspamspamBeGoneTELIA.COM.  For
security
reasons, the confirmation for a change of address must come from the
new
address. A new confirmation request is being sent.

At home i'm logged in as stda. The machine name D1041 is something my
ISP has invented. Probably DHCP thing.


Any help needed.

regards
/Sten

1999\11\11@054608 by paulb

1999\11\11@062447 by Tim Hamel

In a message dated 11/11/99 2:47:06 AM Pacific Standard Time,
RemoveMEpaulbKILLspamMIDCOAST.COM.AU writes:

>  DHCP?  Sounds nasty!  Shouldn't generally affect e-mail but...

DHCP (Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol) is completely irrelevant to the
problem here. DHCP has to do with dynamic IP addy assignments. What his
problem could be are his mail program settings. Either that or SMTP/POP
server problems...
Sheesh, it's been a LONG time since I've posted, and when I do, it's
completely OT, arrrggghh!


Regards,

Tim Hamel

1999\11\11@123832 by Mark Willis

Sten Dahlgren wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>
> Hello !
>
> I'm about to switch my subscribtion over to my home computer/ISP
> but has some serious problems.
> When i try to subscribe from my home ISP i don't get any replys
> no nothing, i have tried to send info and help requests to but
> no response at all. From work i tried the change command to move
> it over and then i get a mail sent to home that i should reply
> with an "ok #######" message and then i get a response to home with
> a new request to send an ok but with another number. At the same time
> i get a reply to work with a comment like this.
>
> Your  request cannot  be processed  because the  confirmation came
> from
> stdaSTOPspamspam_OUTD1O41.TELIA.COM rather  than spamBeGonesten.dahlgrenSTOPspamEraseMETELIA.COM.  For
> security
> reasons, the confirmation for a change of address must come from the
> new
> address. A new confirmation request is being sent.
>
> At home i'm logged in as stda. The machine name D1041 is something my
> ISP has invented. Probably DHCP thing.
>
> Any help needed.
>
> regards
> /Sten

Oh, Boy, another problem to figure out & solve here <G>

Sten, I'll help you out, this could be just a configuration problem from
your home computer, I maye have to issue commands FOR you (been MEANING
to read that section of the new software's manual, now I'll get it
done!  <G>)

Please send an e-mail to me, off-list, from your HOME and from your WORK
addresses, maybe pass the messages you're getting along by forwarding.
I need to see your headers, I think, from the home machine (it's
possible something's not set right there, it's possible I've misled
myself here, too <G>)

(BTW, the 'Ideal' e-mail address for "Help!" requests like this is the
"PICList Admins Helpline" address, <KILLspamPICList-RequestspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU>.
But, then, Paul and Tim don't get to tease you <G>)

 Mark

--
I do small package shipping for small businesses, world-wide.

'[ADMIN] Problems on the PICList'
1999\11\18@185017 by Mark Willis

Known problem, (Thanks, Wagner, for asking), someone's mail server is
bouncing PICList messages back to the PICList, I asked them to fix it
earlier today, am offline, will get back on soon.  If needed, will drop
the person but hoping that's not necessary!

I expect a LOT of people are getting these =(

Wagner Lipnharski wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>
> Hey Mark,
> I am receiving a message for every post I do at Piclist...
> look at one example:
>
> SUBJECT: Rejected posting to EraseMEPICLISTEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU
>
> Your message  is being returned to  you unprocessed because it  appears
> to have
> already been distributed to the PICLIST list. That is, a message with
> identical
> text (but  possibly with different  mail headers) has  been posted to
> the list
> recently, either by you or by someone else. If you have a good reason to
> resend
> this message  to the  list (for instance  because you have  been
> notified  of a
> hardware failure with  loss of data), please  alter the text of  the
> message in
> some way and resend  it to the list. Note that altering  the "Subject:"
> line or
> adding blank lines at  the top or bottom of the message  is not
> sufficient; you
> should  instead add  a  sentence or  two  at  the top  explaining  why
> you  are
> resending the  message, so that the  other subscribers understand why
> they are
> getting two copies of the same message.

 Mark

--
I do small package shipping for small businesses, world-wide.

'[ADMIN] Thought on header revision and format'
1999\11\20@144016 by Mark Willis

1999\11\21@153554 by Tom Handley

'[ADMIN] notice - additional list owner and web pag'
1999\11\22@103914 by eplus1

You think Jory and Mark saw that big red "S" on my forehead? <GRIN> Feel
free to send any advice on sanity maintenance my way, and don't expect too
much... I don't intend to take more than occasional action beyond sending
friendly reminders to people to set plain text and MARK OT's with [OT]. BTW
my definition of OT is something that is not likely to be of interest to a
designer, hobbyist or engineer who commonly uses PICs. So don't feel you
have to mention a PIC in the post. Just don't make jokes, topical
conversation, physics discussions etc... without an [OT] and please... don't
make political or religious comments at all except in a signature line.

I'm happy that http://www.piclist.com has a home (and I hope to make it a better
home with your help). I'd like to suggest that regular posters add the URL
to their signature lines so that newbies will have some idea where to go for
sub/unsub instructions, FAQ's and guidelines. Note that the PICList FAQ is
editable by you! Just fill out the form at the techref homepage and add your
comments etc... as you feel necessary.

James Newton @spam@jamesnewton@spam@spam_OUTgeocities.com phone:1-619-652-0593
http://techref.homepage.com NOW OPEN (R/O) TO NON-MEMBERS!
Members can add private/public comments/pages ($0 TANSTAAFL web hosting)
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com


{Original Message removed}

Sorry for the bandwidth..

Am I allowed to put the PICLIST address on PicNPoke's CD for interesting
places to visit?


[OT]

Hey Mark Willis, if your reading this...

Sorry, I missplaced your email, but the CD for your friend is on it's
way.
'First one off the press' :-)


--
Best regards

Tony

http://www.picnpoke.com
spamBeGonesalesKILLspampicnpoke.com

1999\12\08@004452 by Mark Willis

I cannot imagine it being a problem.  No problem on the CD, it'd help
those needing help (We on the list are some of us "beyond help", of
course <G>)  "Don't sell the address to SPAMmers knowingly, please" <G>

(Saw the other, great!  I saw him today, will burn some EPRoms for him &
get all to him soon, his motherboards need newer firmware; where can I
find a 27C1000-15 or a 27C010A-15 tomorrow? <G>  His Pentium momboard
has the weirdest EPRom/EEProm/Flash ROM markings I've seen lately, HT
M12587 J9710, he tends to get *weird* hardware but this should also be a
27C010A-15 or the like?!  I'll get that to him.)

 Mark

Tony Nixon wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>
> Sorry for the bandwidth..
>
> Am I allowed to put the PICLIST address on PicNPoke's CD for interesting
> places to visit?
>
> [OT]
>
> Hey Mark Willis, if your reading this...
>
> Sorry, I missplaced your email, but the CD for your friend is on it's
> way.
> 'First one off the press' :-)
>
> --
> Best regards
>
> Tony
>
> http://www.picnpoke.com
> .....salesspam_OUTpicnpoke.com

--
I re-ship for small US & overseas businesses, world-wide.
(For private individuals at cost; ask.)

1999\12\08@102654 by jamesnewton

Maybe it would be a good idea to list the PIC FAQ page as a starting point
so that the normal newbie questions of how to sub and unsub and "why don't I
see my own posts" etc... can be answered along with sneaking in some
etiquette training....

http://www.piclist.com

James Newton TakeThisOuTjamesnewton.....TakeThisOuTgeocities.com phone:1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com


{Original Message removed}

'[ADMIN] Question [OT]'
1999\12\09@160337 by Dmitry Kiryashov

1999\12\10@115648 by jamesnewton

Oh, I know we will never be rid of the RTFM impaired... Perfection is beyond
our reach but (I think) we can and should still try for it. There are
degrees of RTFM impairment. By not having a quick link to an FAQ site, we
fail to help the mildly impaired. Baby with bathwater etc...

I'm working on an autoresponder for that sort of thing. Not to actually
unsubscribe people based on PICList posts with "unsubscribble" in the body
but rather to send a FAQ item to them (not the list). Its a very tricky rule
to build. "only if 99% of the message is the request to unsubscribe" etc...
and not to the reply to address (the list) but rather to the senders
address. Outlook is not cooperating so I'm testing a small email server to
use in its place. We will see....

Advice appreciated.

James Newton TakeThisOuTjamesnewtonKILLspamspamgeocities.com phone:1-619-652-0593
http://techref.homepage.com NOW OPEN (R/O) TO NON-MEMBERS!
Members can add private/public comments/pages ($0 TANSTAAFL web hosting)
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com


{Original Message removed}

'[Admin] For anyone moving from one ISP to another.'
1999\12\21@013637 by Mark Willis

If you're moving and you know it in advance, here's the command to use
to "transfer" your PICList subscription when ready, use this method;
>From your old account;  Send the command

Change PICList .....new_usernameRemoveMEnew_isp.tld

to the good ol' PICList List Server Command Port Address,
<RemoveMELISTSERVspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU>, that'll transfer you <G>

(Pushed this to someone needing it, decided, why not post it list-wide,
just in case it helps someone else.  James, feel free to toss that in
the FAQ <G>)

If it's too late (which happens!), just ask me & I'll issue it
"virtually" from your old account;  the one advantage of doing this is
that your account options don't get forgotten.

It's not in the manuals I have, but Info RefCard issued to the listserv
commands address gets you enough info to "Fake" this <G>

 Mark



--
I re-ship for small US & overseas businesses, world-wide.
(For private individuals at cost; ask.)

WELCOME TO THE PICLIST FAQ

The PICList is a collection of people interested in the Microchip PIC
processor who have requested that email sent to the PICList email address be
forwarded to them.

There are about 1800 people subscribed to the PICList (as of 19990110) so
sending a post to the PICList results in a lot of people spending the time
required to read your message or question. They would all appreciate it if
you would check the PIC FAQ and search the Archives before posting a
question.

Many of them enjoy reading posts on topics other than the PIC but that may
be interesting to PICers (engineering, ideas, technical jokes, etc...) but
many others do not wish to spend the time required to read these off-topic
posts. They would appreciate it if you would put the text [TO] at the end of
the subject line of your post so that they know its not about PICs. If you
are replying to a post that is not about PICs and notice that it is not
marked [TO], please edit the subject line to add that flag.

Q : How do I send messages to the list
A : Step by step:

First, you check the PIC FAQ.  and search the Archives. to get an instant
answer without wasting anyone's time.
http://www.infosite.com/~jkeyzer/piclist/index.html with older posts at
http://www.iversoft.com/piclist/

Second, you must be subscribed to the list to post to the list and you must
send from the email address you subscribed from. some email clients will
allow you to click on the following link:
spamBeGoneLISTSERV@spam@spam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU?body=SUB+PICLIST

Third you must compose a message to TakeThisOuTPICLISTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
PICLISTEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU
that will elicit help.
If its not about PICs directly, that's ok, post it anyway but put [TO] at
the end of the subject line.
The subject should be as complete a description of the problem as is
possible in 60 characters or so. Compress and distill.

The body should:
- be in plain text, not HTML.
- be a detailed description of the problem in as few words as possible.
If you have a web page, post a verbose description of the problem to it and
put the full URL of that page in your post (include the ) along with
a summary of the problem.
- include what you are trying to do (overall), what you expected to have
happen at this point, what you are seeing, and how you are seeing it (what
test equipment, etc...)
- Include specific part numbers, code snippets (not the full source,
please), and signal descriptions.

Finally, read your message over again, check the subject line and press
send.
You will not see your message echoed on the PIClist, and it may take more
than a day before anyone responds since most people only read their PICList
mail once a day and they are all over the world. If no one responds after a
week, read the rest of this page,  especially the list admin Mini-FAQ,
general list guidelines,  rethink your post and add a "Nobody responded to
my last post, what am I doing wrong?" to the end and send it again.

Q : How do I send commands (like to subscribe/unsubscribe)?
A : To send a command, send it in the body of an email to the list server
address :
RemoveMELISTSERVEraseMEspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
For instance, to get off the list, you send the command :
SIGNOFF PICLIST to @spam@LISTSERVRemoveMEEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU
EraseMELISTSERV@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU?body=SIGNOFF+PICLIST> Sending SIGNOFF PICLIST in the body of a post to the PICLIST@... address
will result in about 1800 people being notified that you want to leave the
PICList and the emails will keep right on coming.

Q : Where must the command be in my email?
A : In the message body. The subject line is ignored.

Q : What commands are available ?
A : List of ListServer commands

Q: Is the list moderated, how do I contact the moderators,  and what are the
guidelines?
A: The list is administered, not moderated by Mark Willis, James Newton and
Jory Bell (who setup and controls the list). Posting messages to the
"PICList Administration Port", at @spam@PICList-Requestspam_OUT.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU, causes
that message to be distributed to all admins who then read your post & try
to help. They have now published guidelines (Including Marks new Mini-FAQ)
at this site.
http://www.piclist.com
Admin's guide the list by asking that people mark off topic messages with
[TO] in the subject line (not to, <to>, {TO] or off topic) and PICLIST
related but not PIC related messages with [Admin] so that people who do not
wish to read these postings can filter them out via their email programs.
Non-PIC related threads are common and the volume of messages can be several
hundred per week. Several respected, valuable, and otherwise caring people
have, in the past, unsubscribed due to a temporary peak in the volume of
fluff and bad attitudes. When bickering and non-technical posts reach a
fever pitch, James, Mark and even Jory have been known to step in and put a
stop to it by warning people and throwing them off the list. If you want to
be accepted and get the most help, please read some general list guidelines.
Text only posts (no HTML email) are preferred, subject not directly related
to the PIC should be marked with [TO] at the end of the subject line, and
messages of hatred or intolerance will get you kicked off the list, period.
Please forward suggestion or complaints about the list to the list admins at
spamBeGonePICList-RequestEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU
PICList-RequestspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU
rather than to all the list members. Product information about your PIC
related product is fine, but blatant spam is not. Advertise your company,
product or site in a one or two line addition to your signature at the
bottom of your posts.

Q. Is the PICList a good place to ask for / post cracks for PIC related
software?
A. Remember that the PICList is a public forum. Asking for a crack will
typically get you nothing but advice to pay for what you get. In the past,
cracks posted to the list have evoked mixed responses ranging from offlist
threats, to onlist thanks and have started some flame threads about hacking
and cracking and software licenses and prices in general which always end up
being a waste of bandwidth. List members have been known to forward cracking
related threads to the maker of the product being cracked with full header
information (including your email address, and who your ISP is).

We can't stop people from posting things that are not legal. We do not
approve of software piracy and will remove from the list individuals who
show a flagrant disregard for the rights (and efforts) of others. We will
forcibly kill flame threads that have no bearing on PICs and are not
appropriate to the list.

Jory says: "...[we can't prevent] PICList people [from pirating] software,
since that is everyone's own choice, ... i don't want to police such things,
but please keep in mind the nature of your communication, and the nature of
a public list and decide what is appropriate."

Lets keep cracking off the PICList, there are plenty of other lists for
that, and as always, please mark anything not directly related to PIC
engineering with an [TO] at the end of the subject line.


Q: Can I advertise my product on the PICList?
A: Yes and no. Read on:

SOLVING PROBLEMS WITH YOUR PRODUCT
:> Great! Responding to a question or a request for help with an
advertisement for your product which is a solution to the original post is
no problem. That type of advertising is "a good thing" as it A) solves the
posters problem B) encourages PIC related businesses C) Keeps people who do
PICs for a living involved in the list. D) sometimes it triggers a "hey, I
can do that for a lot less" response that leads to a healthy competition for
the advertisers.
Don, Tony, Myke and others have been called on the carpet for advertising
before and list members have resoundingly stood up for them.

Before you buy anything, don't be afraid to ask others on the list for
confirmation that a product recommended by the mfg. as a solution to your
problem is a good choice. List members will not hesitate to speak up <GRIN>
and the manufacturers are expected to be thick skinned.


SIGNATURE LINES
:) Good: Adding a line or two to your signature (and the "PIC/PICList FAQ:
http://www.piclist.com " line doesn't count! <GRIN>) about what you do, buy,
sell or believe in is also no problem. The only possible exceptions are
political and/or religious flame starters and spiteful messages.

PRODUCT NEWS
:| Maybe: Posting News or information about your product (unsolicited) to
the list. Well... ok... *IF* its a product that people on the PICList will
really use. The only trick is that in the eyes of the poster, the fact that
his new hydroponic plant management system has a PIC somewhere in it
qualifies it for the PICList even though he hasn't published a schematic,
code or even any description of the design process and its never been
mentioned on the list before. On the other hand, if the product actually A)
does something to a PIC or for a PIC (like a programmer or a simulator
etc...) B) Uses a PIC and has engineering details published or C) was
designed with help from the list (e.g. we all heard about the problems and
solutions involved in the making of it), we don't see any problem.

THE FINAL WORD
:{ Listen: The final judgment of what is appropriate is left in the hands of
the PICList administrators, if *they* feel a post is inappropriate, they
WILL take action with at least a warning, followed by removal and or barring
the offender from the list, at their option, on this as in any
transgression.
Q: Is the list archived?
A: in realtime at http://www.infosite.com/~jkeyzer/piclist/index.html with
older posts at http://www.iversoft.com/piclist/. The server also archives
the list - as of 4 January 2000 the server contains archives back to April
1998. To get a list of the archives send the command "index piclist" to
RemoveMElistserv@spam@spamBeGonemitvma.mit.edu.

Q: Are these archives searchable?
A: Yes, they are. The two webpages have search engines on the page. The
direct server interface also provides search capability by email. To use the
email interface, compose a new message addressed to .....listserv@spam@EraseMEmitvma.mit.edu.
In the body of the message, create your search parameters like this:

search keyword in listname
where keyword is the word or words (separated by spaces) that you wish to
search for and listname would be PICList.

You can further limit the search to a specific time frame by adding the
phrase

from date1
to begin the search at date1. You can also specify an ending date by adding

to date2
The full command would then be:

search keyword in listname from date1 to date2
Two other limiters that can be used are

where subject contains text
and

where sender contains text
These limiters contain the search to messages that have certain subject
lines or were sent by specific individuals, respectively.

[Thanks to Mike Werner]

Q: Why don't I see my own posts to the PICLIST?
A: This is the default setting on the list server. To changes this so that a
copy of your post is sent back to you from the list, send the command:
SET PICLIST REP to .....LISTSERVRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU

Q: Can I get the list in "digest" format?
A: Yes. To change to digest mode, just send the command SET PICList DIGest
to .....LISTSERVSTOPspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU. To get back to individual emails, send the
command SET PICList NODIGests to LISTSERVEraseME@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU

Q: Can I get only the posts that interest me in digest form?
Q: On my slow internet connection, it takes forever to download all the
email and I'm only interested in a few anyway. How can I keep using the
list?
A: Using the Index mode of the PIC List. [thanks to Mike Werner]

First of all, you must tell the server that you want the index mode for your
subscription. To do this, send a message to RemoveMELISTSERVspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU with the
command "set piclist index" (without the quotes, of course) as the sole
content in the body of the message. From then on you will receive a daily
index of postings to the list, looking something like this:

Index  Date  Size Poster and subject
-----  ----  ---- ------------------
043066 10/22   18 From:    Mike Werner <spamBeGonereznaeousKILLspam@spam@EARTHLINK.NET>
                 Subject: Re: [TO] Bullet Proof Circuit... was: Survey...
What
                          is an
Except that there would be a whole lot more entries than that. The headers
are fairly self-explanatory, but as a quick once over they are: Index is a
server assigned sequential number for reference purposes, Date is the date
the message was received by the server, Size is the number of lines in the
message not counting headers, and then Poster and Subject is just that.

To retrieve the full message, all you need do is hit reply, quote the
original message (most mailers will do that either automatically or provide
a button to do so), and then edit out the messages that you are not
interested in. Once you have done that, send the message. In a few minutes
you will receive one digest-style message containing just the messages you
wanted.

Q: I'm going on vacation / don't want to be involved in the PICList for a
while. Should I unsubscribe and then re-subscribe when I get back?
A: You can, but this will reset any configuration related to your account.
To preserve your settings, send the NOMAIL command: SET PICList NOMAIL to
LISTSERVspam_OUT@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU as you leave and then send the MAIL command: SET
PICList MAIL to spamBeGoneLISTSERV@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU when you return. Also, consider
setting digest mode (above) to continue getting PICList posts in a more
compact form.

Q: I've been on the PICList for a while and suddenly I'm not getting any of
the 50 odd messages per day that normally come in:
A: Sometimes, on the Internet (being the way it is), mail doesn't get
through for a while - it does get through eventually. Situations happen like
your mail being handed off to a machine which then gets disconnected due to
some problem, be it "backhoe fade" or a hardware crash, things usually get
fixed up in a couple days. Usually the traffic all shows up in one HUGE
clump, some hours or days later on, whenever that server gets fixed or
re-booted. It's annoying to us admins, as we have to tell the difference
between not being on the list, being on the list but set to NoMail, or the
above, or other problems that can happen. Sometimes, someone's ISP falls
onto the RBL (Realtime Black hole List - an anti-SPAM list, this happened to
MY ISP recently), or the PICList gets mistakenly ID'ed as a "SPAM" source by
someone's ISP due to all the traffic, and all PICList traffic is filtered
into the "circular binary file." Rarely, you get a fast response back, but
the mail isn't getting through, despite the options the list server's set to
looking like it should - When THAT happens, I suggest people unsub &
re-subscribe, usually that fixes things. Sometimes just setting to digest &
then regular mail a few seconds later can fix it.

The usual test I suggest is to send a "Query PICList" message to the
"PICList List Server Command Input Port" at RemoveMELISTSERVEraseMEKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU, if you
don't get a response back from that address in 5 minutes or less, mail's
dropping through an event horizon someplace between your ISP and the list
server, or filtering is happening, or someone's on the RBL & is being
filtered out. This is a good time to e-mail the list admins at
spamBeGonePICList-Requestspam_OUTRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU and let us look into it.

Q: My email address is changing. How can I forward my PICList emails?
A: If you're moving to a new ISP, you can send in the command "CHange
PICList newemailaddress@newISP", to .....LISTSERVRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU to move your
subscription.

Q: I want to post to the PICList from my home email account and from work.
When I try to post from an account from which I am not subscribed to the
PICList I get a "rejected posting" message and if I subscribe from both
email accounts, I end up with two copies of every post. What can I do?
A: Subscribe from both accounts then send the NOMAIL command from the email
address where you do not wish to receive (but do wish to send) posts.

Q: I'm having (some other) problem with the PICList
A: [There are] Multiple ways to handle any type of List problems [says Mark]

Send a "Query PICList" message, to the PICList List Server 'Command Input
port' at <LISTSERV@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>, and forward the resulting e-mail you
receive in return, to an Admin. with what's wrong; This gives me more info.
Should get that response quickly, so if no response in a half hour, let me
know that you tried. If this happens, it's a router problem. If you send
such a message & get a delivery error, though, I want to know as I need to
contact MIT or something (unlikely though.)

Unsubscribe from the PICList and subscribe again. Yeah, I know, it's a pain!
But sometimes the only way, seemingly, to fix some things (Methinks L-Soft
has a bug to stomp somewhere in the Options setting/clearing code - for
their credit, they seem to have most of them pretty well squished!) You'll
have to then set your options again, which is a pain. I think (haven't
tested yet) that you can put the options all into one e-mail, too, i.e.
Subscribe on the first line, Set PICList Mail on the second, and even Set
PICList Repro on the third {Now the default}, Set PICList NoACK on the
fourth {Again the default} if you wanted. (I don't mind people asking for
help, either, especially when they cannot unsub an old address due to an ISP
change or ISP name change, it takes me 3 seconds to unsub people, so just
make sure you ask me to unsub the CORRECT ADDRESS, lest I unsub the wrong
one!)

To get at old posts, either jump to http://www.iversoft.com/piclist/ and
read there, or, you can send the command "Index PICList" to the PICList List
Server 'Command Input port' at <EraseMELISTSERVRemoveMESTOPspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>, which will get an
index of old PICList messages for you. I don't think the list server keeps
all messages ever posted, but it does keep some. You can then order
individual messages by using "GETPOST PicList Ref#1 Ref#2 ..." etc., where
Ref#1 is a reference number in the Index you just received.
Q: How can I sort email from the PICList to separate it from my other email?
A: Most email clients will allow you to setup a rule for moving PICList
email into another folder. It always comes from RemoveMEPICLISTKILLspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU. If
your email program doesn't support that or if you want to keep it all
together but still easily see what emails are from the PICList, you can turn
on a subject sort tag by sending the command SET PICLIST SUBJECTHDR to
spamBeGoneLISTSERV@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU. This will insert the tag [PICLIST] in the subject
line of every post and remove it from your replies to the list for other
members who have turned this feature off (the default setting). You can
disable it by sending SET PICLIST NOSUBJECTHDR to RemoveMELISTSERVspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU

Q: How is the PICList like a PIC?
A: The PICList list server has 3 "I/O Ports".

Posting messages to the "PICList Mail Distribution port", at
PICListspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU, causes that message to be distributed to all 1800+
members of the PICList (Those who don't have NoMail set), who then read your
post and make snide comments if you posted to the wrong address.
Posting messages to the "PICList Administration Port", at
spam_OUTPICList-Requestspam_OUTspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU, causes that message to be distributed to all
admins of the PICList {Jory, Mark, & James, right now}, who then read your
post & try to help.
Posting messages to the "PICList Command Input Port", at
LISTSERVspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU, causes that message to be treated as a command by
the listserve software, THIS and ONLY THIS is the address to send
Unsubscribe requests, Set NoMail requests, and so forth. The listserve
software ONLY listens here for commands, you can send them to those other
"ports" all you want, and all you'll get is a copy back from the machine,
telling you you've made a mistake.
Same as on a PIC chip, using the wrong port for the wrong purpose may result
in unintended consequences, like annoyed list neighbors or frustrated
admins.

And finally:

Q: How many internet mail list subscribers does it take to change a light
bulb?

A: Exactly Five Hundred:

1 to change the light bulb and to post to the mail list that the light bulb
has been changed
7 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light
bulb could have been changed differently.
4 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs. (one post in HTML)
1 admin to post a message about not posting in HTML
17 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing
1 to post an unsubscribble message to the list (rather than to the list
server)
1 to respond to that with a witty comment about t-shirts
1 to notice that some message in the signature line of one of the messages
offends him and post a flaming rebuttal
1 One Admin to flame the other about SPAMming the list with pointers to his
PICList FAQ resulting in a flurry of off list inter-admin posts that
distract the admins just long enough to allow:
463 to pile into the flames

This FAQ maintained by Jory Bell, Mark Willis and James Newton. Last update
200001070752

The PICList Admins
RemoveMEPICList-RequestKILLspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com

2000\01\10@112642 by PICLIST-request

Please change all occurrences of [TO] into [OT] in the previous post on this
thread.

When I was about to send the monthly PICList FAQ post for Jory, Mark and I,
I thought "I'll just do one last spell check before posting this..." and
must have told the #^@^%@ spell checker to change all the ot's to to's. I
guess I have to be %7 smarter than the spell checker I'm running... <WANE
GRIN> Pardon me while I go wipe the egg off my face...

The following is correct (I think)

James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
jamesnewtonspamBeGone.....piclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com

{Original Message removed}

2000\03\17@041527 by Arthur Brown

'[ADMIN] Repeated Messages'
2000\03\21@033720 by Michael Rigby-Jones

2000\03\21@041711 by Mark Willis

2000\03\22@112907 by Daniel Hart

2000\03\22@135701 by Mark Willis

'[ADMIN] Digest problems'
2000\03\28@200735 by Mark Willis

Hi, all;

If you get the Digest, you may be getting multiple copies of same.
We're trying to track this down;  If you DO get multiple copies, PLEASE
PLEASE PLEASE send me *full* headers off the top of at least 2 Digests -
I can NOT track the cause of this problem down without full headers
usually.  Lots easier with info <G>  Same thing as trying to debug a PIC
problem based on "It doesn't work right" - we can guess, but it's just
guesswork <G>

Full headers will look UGLY, worse than C or assembler;  something like
this for Netscape, from a test I just sent through a backup mail address
of mine:

{Quote hidden}

> Return-path:
>                       <KILLspammwillis.....foxinternet.net>
>                Received:
>                       from mx2.eskimo.com (unverified [204.122.16.49]) by mailsite.foxinternet.net (Rockliffe SMTPRA 4.2.0) with ESMTP id
>                       <spam_OUTB0009859538KILLspammailsite.foxinternet.net> for <RemoveMEmwillisRemoveMEEraseMEfoxinternet.net>; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:48:02 -0800
>                Received:
>                       from mailsite.foxinternet.net (mail.foxinternet.net [208.8.213.35]) by mx2.eskimo.com (8.9.1a/8.8.8) with ESMTP id
>                       NAA24703 for <KILLspammark_willisspamBeGonewa-state-resident.com>; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:49:47 -0800 (PST)
>                Received:
>                       from foxinternet.net (unverified [208.8.214.33]) by mailsite.foxinternet.net (Rockliffe SMTPRA 4.2.0) with ESMTP id
>                       <B0009859521spammailsite.foxinternet.net> for <RemoveMEmark_willisspamBeGoneRemoveMEwa-state-resident.com>; Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:47:39 -0800
>              Message-ID:
>                       <KILLspam38E128ED.8E9B6EA2spamBeGonefoxinternet.net>
>                   Date:
>                       Tue, 28 Mar 2000 13:49:33 -0800
>                   From:
>                       Mark Willis <@spam@mwillisSTOPspam@spam@foxinternet.net>
>            Organization:
>                       Occasionally happens here.
>                X-Mailer:
>                       Mozilla 4.07 [en] (Win16; U)
>            MIME-Version:
>                       1.0
>                     To:
>                       "Mark [WA] Willis" <mark_willisspamBeGonespamBeGonewa-state-resident.com>
>                 Subject:
>                       Test
>            Content-Type:
>                       text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>  Content-Transfer-Encoding:
>                       7bit
>          X-Mozilla-Status:
>                       8001

 Mark

'[Admin] Digest Disasters Debugged?'
2000\03\29@172740 by Mark Willis

'[Admin] PICList Digest replacement copies'
2000\03\29@235045 by Mark Willis

'[Admin] Marking an "OT" post properly when a threa'
2000\03\31@023422 by Mark Willis

'[ADMIN] Bouncing messages from roland.wintsch@port'
2000\04\10@114632 by M. Adam Davis

I'm getting the following message after every submission to the piclist:

User mailbox exceeds allowed size: spamBeGoneroland.wintschportable-shop.ch

I imagine s/he left a few days ago and didn't turn off his/her subscription, or
something to that effect...

Probably needs to be set to no messages for awhile.

-Adam

2000\04\10@132220 by Quitt, Walter

Me too.....

-----Original Message-----
From: M. Adam Davis [spam_OUTadavisSTOPspamUBASICS.COM]
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2000 8:44 AM
To: RemoveMEPICLISTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [ADMIN] Bouncing messages from TakeThisOuTroland.wintschspamRemoveMEportable-shop.ch


I'm getting the following message after every submission to the piclist:

User mailbox exceeds allowed size: KILLspamroland.wintschspamspam_OUTportable-shop.ch

I imagine s/he left a few days ago and didn't turn off his/her subscription,
or
something to that effect...

Probably needs to be set to no messages for awhile.

-Adam

2000\04\10@132813 by jamesnewton

I went ahead and unsubscribed him. He can get back on after fixing the
account if he wants.

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
jamesnewtonRemoveMEpiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org


{Original Message removed}

'[ADMIN] Marking subject lines'
2000\04\11@133043 by M. Adam Davis

2000\04\11@185229 by David E Arnold

Just an idea:

How about the opposite of current system.

In order to get people to put [OT] in the subject lines, how about having the
listserver
automatically do it by default unless a person specifically puts a tag that
indicates
not to.  That way if people really want a response on a PIC related question or
issue(
and it matters to them, they'll have to enter this flag so the listserver will
not mark the
post as [OT].

-Dave







"M. Adam Davis" <EraseMEadavisSTOPspamRemoveMEUBASICS.COM> on 04/11/2000 10:27:35 AM

Please respond to pic microcontroller discussion list <spam_OUTPICLISTRemoveMEEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU>

To:   TakeThisOuTPICLISTRemoveME@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
cc:    (bcc: David E Arnold/SYBASE)
Subject:  [ADMIN] Marking subject lines




Well, it may be nice to have everything nicely categorized by using the subject
line.  But as long as you have new people subscribing to the list without
reading the FAQ or even the welcome message, and as long as you have people who
forget even to put the [OT] up, I don't know that you'll get too far.

But be of good cheer.  We've pretty much gotten rid of all the rogue forms of
[OT], and people are using [ADMIN] when needed.  There aren't any other
confusing terms.  It looks like we just have to take a little at a time, and it
may be a good time to start using [EE].  I would suggest that [OT] be enforced,
but [EE] just become a suggestion.  People can add it to subjects if they want
slightly more exposure for [OT] posts, but we don't need to reprimand them if
they don't include it.

So now we have:
[ADMIN]  for administration questions, suggestions,
        etc which pertain to everyone on the list
[OT]     Items which have little or no conection to
        the PICLIST, but are asked by its members
        anyway.
[OT][EE] Items which have little connection to PICs,
        but may be of interest to electrical
        engineers.

Personally I think the list is doing very well.  I don't feel like I'm wading
through a lot of dross to get to the good stuff.

-Adam

Never knock on Death's door:
Ring the doorbell and run (he hates that).

James Newton wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> On the subject of off topic threads:
>
> Although I'm open to suggestions, my opinion is that its hard enough to get
> people to put [OT] in the subject line. Adding more differentiation on
> subject markings would be great but appears to be to much to ask.
>
> I have noticed a hefty drop in unsubscribbles, non-marked off topics, and
> political and religious posts (despite the recent, short outbreak) since we
> changed the outgoing subscription message and since a few people have
> actually added http://www.piclist.com to their signature lines. It seems to be
> helping with FAQ's. There are fewer FAQ posts. Keep in mind that there are
> now about 2000 people on the list which is the most I've ever seen.
>
> On the other hand, there seem to be fewer posts in general, and the ratio of
> (marked) off topics to on topics seems to be about the same or maybe a bit
> "worse". I think the decrease in posts may also be related to spring fever.
> It's nice outside <GRIN>.
>
> Anyway, adding [OTT] would require people who have set up filters that drop
> out [OT] to change there set up. I'd rather see something like [EE] in
> addition to [OT] to mark posts that are off topic for PIC's but still
> contain interesting issues for Electrical Engineers. This has been suggested
> several times in the past and has always met with resounding apathy... So
> I've probably wasted my time in typing this....

'[admin] www.piclist.com down?'
2000\04\17@100236 by jamesnewton

Blue Screen of Death sometime Sunday. Its up now. http://www.piclist.org will be a
mirror backup site very soon.

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
EraseMEjamesnewtonRemoveMEpiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

-----Original Message-----
From: JB [spamjb.....spamci.glenwood-springs.co.us]
Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2000 09:32
To: jamesnewtonspam_OUT@spam@geocities.com
Subject: [admin] http://www.piclist.com down?


Site doesn't respond, from here anyway. Hopefully you're the one to notify
about this, in which case you probably already know, but just in case..

JB

'[Admin] Re: Todd is SPAMming us was[OT] To those l'
2000\04\19@201926 by Nathan Hendler

While you guys are nitpicking... shouldn't [Admin] have been added to this
threads subject?  har har.

Nathan Hendler

On Wed, 19 Apr 2000, James Michael Newton wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> Um... where did you get that [OT] was not in the subject line... I can see
> it.
>
> SPAM is bad, period. If you didn't ask to have information sent to you, your
> resources are being used with out your permission. Todd didn't send this to
> the list (as he could have with a nice [OT]...) but probably mined the list
> posts for email. If he is on the list, I will unsubscribe him tomorrow (I'm
> out sick today) or Mark or Mike will.
>
> Todd does include a remove address and while most of these are just a trap,
> the fact that his is at the company address indicates that its probably
> valid. If you don't want to get anymore but your not upset about it, just
> follow his instructions to get off his list.
>
> If you want to do the RIGHT THING (IMHO) use
> http://www.spamcop.net
>   or
> http://www.samspade.com
>  to automatically report him to everyone from his ISP to the blacklist orgs.
>
> That's my opinion anyway.
>
> James Newton, PICList Admin #3
> .....jamesnewtonspam.....piclist.com
> 1-619-652-0593 phone
> http://www.piclist.com
>
>

> {Original Message removed}

'[Admin] [OT] Spamming and Spamcop/Samspade'
2000\04\20@125249 by William K. Borsum

<x-flowed>Just curious how these two URL's work??
Don't get a lot of junk mail any more--but what i do get is irritating
beyond belief.  Would sincerely love to return the "favor" and create some
havoc at the other end, or find some sort of filter that catches all of it
on the way in.
Kelly


At 04:55 PM 4/19/00, you wrote:
> >
> > If you want to do the RIGHT THING (IMHO) use
> > http://www.spamcop.net
> >   or
> > http://www.samspade.com
> >  to automatically report him to everyone from his ISP to the blacklist
> orgs.

William K. Borsum, P.E. -- OEM Dataloggers and Instrumentation Systems
<borsumKILLspamEraseMEdascor.com> & <http://www.dascor.com>San Diego, California, USA

</x-flowed>

'[ADMIN][OT]Todd is SPAMming us'
2000\04\20@131408 by Barry King

'[Admin] [OT] Spamming and Spamcop/Samspade'
2000\04\20@132023 by Mark Willis

I use samspade in manual mode - he does have a Win32 app there but I
haven't used it so cannot comment;  Steve (who runs SamSpade) would know
<G>  He's a good guy, will usually answer questions in fairly short
times.

For manual mode, you look up the headers, need to use Verbose headers
mode for that - find the IP addresses (starting hunting from the top
down for all non-AOL users - I'm told AOL does headers differently.  You
go downwards until you find a huge discrepancy, or, reach the end of the
Received-from lines.)  Enter the IP addresses, in turn, into the
"WhoIs/TraceRoute" dialog box - I click all 3 dialog boxes and then hit
"Go" (Doing all this from memory, it's pretty simple.)  You then send a
complaint letter to the Spammers' ISP and DNS server holders, and in
some cases their ISP's ISP (I can help off-list better on how to do
this.)  You also do the same with the SPAMmers' web pages, complaining
to the DNS servers and web page ISP and their ISP, and to anything you
can find on their web page - use the safe browser on Sam Spade or on
Anonymizer.Com, if some joker's using a Merchant CC account you DO want
to bug the provider of that account so they'll likely be shut off from
being able to make money.

If you send me headers you're stuck on, I'll help, or you can join any
of a number of Anti-Spammer training web pages (FREE, CAUCE, etc.) and
e-mail lists, and there're certainly other people on the list who know
how to track SPAMmers.  Takes about 5 minutes to write a "LART" once you
get the hang of it - The first ones won't be THAT fast, of course.  And
there are tricks etc., like SMI8.6 relays that destroy all
trace-ability, so all you can do there is ask the relay's owner to close
their relay - You will have to learn more than I've written here,
obviously.  It's good knowledge to put on your Resume' - "I can read
e-mail headers" <G>

 Mark

William K. Borsum wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> Just curious how these two URL's work??
> Don't get a lot of junk mail any more--but what i do get is irritating
> beyond belief.  Would sincerely love to return the "favor" and create some
> havoc at the other end, or find some sort of filter that catches all of it
> on the way in.
> Kelly
>
> At 04:55 PM 4/19/00, you wrote:
> > >
> > > If you want to do the RIGHT THING (IMHO) use
> > > http://www.spamcop.net
> > >   or
> > > http://www.samspade.com
> > >  to automatically report him to everyone from his ISP to the blacklist
> > orgs.
>
> William K. Borsum, P.E. -- OEM Dataloggers and Instrumentation Systems
> <EraseMEborsum@spam@@spam@dascor.com> & <http://www.dascor.com>San Diego, California, USA

--
I re-ship for small US & overseas businesses, world-wide.
(For private individuals at cost; ask.)

'[ADMIN][OT]Todd is SPAMming us'
2000\04\20@141111 by Andrew Kunz

Strange.  The 4 copies I got all said "Todd Peterson" (whom I know as e-labs)
and had e-labs in the "from."

Andy










Barry King <@spam@barryspamKILLspamNRGSYSTEMS.COM> on 04/20/2000 01:49:00 PM

Please respond to pic microcontroller discussion list <spamBeGonePICLISTRemoveMEEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU>








To:      RemoveMEPICLISTKILLspamRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU

cc:      (bcc: Andrew Kunz/TDI_NOTES)



Subject: Re: [ADMIN][OT]Todd is SPAMming us








I just got my copy this morning!  Oh joy.  Its SPAM because,

1) Its unsolicited (I didn't ASK for info here or on his site.)
2) Its a mass mailing
3) The senders identity is purposely hidden in the headers (why would
a legitimate business do that????)

Further more,
4) He hasn't apologized
5) He hasn't stopped, even after the uproar.

If he had just posted the exact same product announcement to the
list, we would not be screaming, LARTing and complaining.  Posting
announcements that might resonable be of interest to the list members
is specifically allowed.  If you don't follow the rules, you deserve
all the ire, boycotts, and LARTs you get.

------------
Barry King, KA1NLH
NRG Systems "Measuring the Wind's Energy"
http://www.nrgsystems.com
Check out the accumulated (PIC) wisdom of the ages at:
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.org

'[Admin] [OT] Spamming and Spamcop/Samspade'
2000\04\22@204754 by Mark Newland

www.samspade.com isn't working for me

"William K. Borsum" wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> Just curious how these two URL's work??
> Don't get a lot of junk mail any more--but what i do get is irritating
> beyond belief.  Would sincerely love to return the "favor" and create some
> havoc at the other end, or find some sort of filter that catches all of it
> on the way in.
> Kelly
>
> At 04:55 PM 4/19/00, you wrote:
> > >
> > > If you want to do the RIGHT THING (IMHO) use
> > > http://www.spamcop.net
> > >   or
> > > http://www.samspade.com
> > >  to automatically report him to everyone from his ISP to the blacklist
> > orgs.
>
> William K. Borsum, P.E. -- OEM Dataloggers and Instrumentation Systems
> <TakeThisOuTborsumdascor.com> & <http://www.dascor.com>San Diego, California, USA

2000\04\22@210905 by Mark Willis

Quite true - I've been trying to reach Steve (who runs the site) about
that, as I have another 10pins.com SPAM to LART;  I didn't get to
posting to the list about it yet.  While his site usually works quite
well, right now it's quite DOA (I get 97 bytes and it hangs, error
messages, or some other unusual, "bad" result.)  Give it a day, Steve
will fix it.  I've e-mailed him from 2 different e-mail accounts so he
should know soon if not already (I'll post to a mutual friend shortly if
no reply from him.)  Could just be us Seattle-area PICsters that're
having problems.

 Mark

Mark Newland wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> http://www.samspade.com isn't working for me
>
> "William K. Borsum" wrote:
>
> > Just curious how these two URL's work??
> > Don't get a lot of junk mail any more--but what i do get is irritating
> > beyond belief.  Would sincerely love to return the "favor" and create some
> > havoc at the other end, or find some sort of filter that catches all of it
> > on the way in.
> > Kelly
> >
> > At 04:55 PM 4/19/00, you wrote:
> > > >
> > > > If you want to do the RIGHT THING (IMHO) use
> > > > http://www.spamcop.net
> > > >   or
> > > > http://www.samspade.com
> > > >  to automatically report him to everyone from his ISP to the blacklist
> > > orgs.
> >
> > William K. Borsum, P.E. -- OEM Dataloggers and Instrumentation Systems
> > <spamBeGoneborsumKILLspamTakeThisOuTdascor.com> & <http://www.dascor.com>San Diego, California, USA

--
I re-ship for small US & overseas businesses, world-wide.
(For private individuals at cost; ask.)

2000\04\22@234137 by James Michael Newton

spamcop is a more commercial and more stable service which is why I use it.
Mark uses samspade and will undoubtedly have more information on the outage.
Either will get the job done.

James Newton, PICList Admin #3
EraseMEjamesnewton.....KILLspampiclist.com
1-619-652-0593 phone
http://www.piclist.com

{Original Message removed}

2000\04\23@070244 by Martin G. McCormick

2000\04\23@114808 by Mark Willis

'[Admin] Watch the HTML, folks!'
2000\04\30@133238 by Mark Willis

'[Admin] piclist thread ordering'
2000\04\30@135557 by Dan Michaels

'[Admin] Watch the HTML, folks!'
2000\04\30@175544 by Arthur

'[Admin] piclist thread ordering'
2000\04\30@183202 by ssemjaco

2000\04\30@185458 by paulb

2000\04\30@190718 by Arthur

'[Admin] Watch the HTML, folks!'
2000\04\30@190928 by David Lions

'[Admin] piclist thread ordering'
2000\04\30@194115 by Dan Michaels

2000\04\30@215442 by Mike Werner

2000\05\01@083513 by Russell McMahon

2000\05\01@103050 by Dan Michaels

'[Admin] Watch the HTML, folks!'
2000\05\01@185126 by Mark Willis

'[ADMIN] repro default changed'
2000\05\03@125020 by jamesnewton

Just a quick note to let everyone know and to say thanks to Mike Werner who
was able to figure out how to change the default on the list server so that
new subscribers WILL see their own posts echoed back to them by default.
Thanks Mike! He really has a strange and wonderful ability to read arcane
documentation.

Hopefully, this will cut down on the "is anyone getting my posts" posts.

I've noticed that despite passing the 2000 member mark, the PICList is
seeing a lot fewer "unsubscribble" posts, also thanks to Mike changing the
less than totally useful default "welcome" message sent by the list server
to new subscribers.

List of things the list server can't do that we would like:
- reject HTML Posts (Please, try not to post in HTML)
- strip attachments or cache them at a web page (adding a link to the
message)
- virus scan (probably not necessary if the previous two could be done)

Please send other ideas to me directly:
spamjamesnewtonpiclist.com

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
jamesnewtonSTOPspampiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

'[admin] Is Scenix OT?'
2000\05\14@114257 by Don

2000\05\14@125750 by James Michael Newton

As a PIC clone, the Scenix is not off topic. I suppose if anyone wanted to
nitPIC <GRIN> features of the SX that are above and beyond the PIC are
probably off topic unless we are talking about how to do the same thing on
the PIC.

James Newton, PICList Admin #3
jamesnewtonSTOPspamKILLspampiclist.com
1-619-652-0593 phone
http://www.piclist.com

{Original Message removed}

'[Admin] Repeat Messages'
2000\05\14@163623 by Josh Koffman

Is anyone else getting copies of posts to the PICList that were sent
last week or maybe a bit before? I keep getting messages with dates that
are old,  and I even remember reading them. Is this a problem on my end
or is this happening to anyone else?

Josh Koffman
@spam@joshy.....spammb.sympatico.ca

2000\05\14@173933 by Dwayne Reid

<x-flowed>At 03:19 PM 5/14/00 -0500, Josh Koffman wrote:
>Is anyone else getting copies of posts to the PICList that were sent
>last week or maybe a bit before? I keep getting messages with dates that
>are old,  and I even remember reading them. Is this a problem on my end
>or is this happening to anyone else?
>
>Josh Koffman
>spamjoshy..........mb.sympatico.ca

Yep.  Here is a portion of one of the offending message's header

X-Warning: mitvma.mit.edu: Host smtp.arrakis.es claimed to be
           ssmtp02.melange.isp

dwayne



Dwayne Reid   <dwayner.....planet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice          (780) 487-6397 fax

Celebrating 16 years of Engineering Innovation (1984 - 2000)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Do NOT send unsolicited commercial email to this email address.
This message neither grants consent to receive unsolicited
commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial email.

</x-flowed>

2000\05\14@214952 by Ian Wilkinson

On Sun, 14 May 2000 in "[Admin] Repeat Messages", you wrote:
>Is anyone else getting copies of posts to the PICList that were sent
>last week or maybe a bit before? I keep getting messages with dates that
>are old,  and I even remember reading them. Is this a problem on my end
>or is this happening to anyone else?
>

Yes, I'm getting them from a while ago.
MY e-mail client sorts mail into time order that it was Sent, not when I
recieve it so I get posts all over the place...

for example I got this twice...
FW: [OT][ADMIN] NO MORE HTML!!!
From: "Severson, Rob"
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 11:02:51 -0500

and this
[OT] need SX52BD programmer...
From: Vasile Surducan
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 10:28:59 +0000

and
Re: very [OT] linux masquerading a lan
From: Alan B Pearce
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 09:37:15 +0100

and
Re: very [OT] linux masquerading a lan
From: Mark Willis
To: KILLspamPICLISTspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 01:24:29 -0700

I thought it was something I had done...

Ian.
--
A pair of feckin' women's knickers!
- Father Jack

Uptime at 12:23am  up  2:14,  4 users,

2000\05\15@033421 by Michael Rigby-Jones

2000\05\15@041437 by Alan B Pearce

2000\05\15@052839 by Mark Willis

'[ADMIN] Rejected post'
2000\05\17@231554 by Jinx

2000\05\18@052500 by Alan B Pearce

It would seem that the rejected posts are all echoes from someone who has had
their access to the list cut off by their employer. I have had a bounce with the
same destination three times this morning, and all included this address line.


>Return-Path: <spam_OUTowner-piclistTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
>Apparently-To: .....dave.....RemoveMEDIGILOG.CO.UK
>Delivered-To: spam_OUTe7df6e19-daveTakeThisOuTEraseMEDIGILOG.CO.UK
>Received: (qmail 17139 invoked from network); 18 May 2000 09:07:45 -0000

2000\05\18@102111 by paulb

Alan B Pearce wrote:

> It would seem that the rejected posts are all echoes from someone who
> has had their access to the list cut off by their employer.

> >Apparently-To: EraseMEdavespamBeGoneKILLspamDIGILOG.CO.UK
> >Delivered-To: RemoveMEe7df6e19-davespamBeGonespamDIGILOG.CO.UK

 You're dead right about the mechanism.  Not so much about their list
access, it's generally their e-mail account in toto.

 It was reported to the admins a couple of days ago - not sure why they
haven't killed it yet except to say they're busy guys and some of these
things are due to strange mail reflections which are difficult to track.

 I'm not sure for example whether the listserver puts unique IDs on to
each copy of each message it resends or how easy it is to match these
logs again if they cause a bounce.

 The important thing is that until the bogus message the listserver
returns to the original sender is fixed, which I am assured it will be
:) soon, that senders do *NOT* re-send any messages.
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

2000\05\18@112735 by Mark Willis

Paul B. Webster VK2BZC wrote:
> Alan B Pearce wrote:
> > It would seem that the rejected posts are all echoes from someone who
> > has had their access to the list cut off by their employer.
>
> > >Apparently-To: @spam@davespamDIGILOG.CO.UK
> > >Delivered-To: TakeThisOuTe7df6e19-daveKILLspam@spam@DIGILOG.CO.UK
>
>   You're dead right about the mechanism.  Not so much about their list
> access, it's generally their e-mail account in toto.

Mail servers can get messed up - He's working the problem.  Switching to
"Apparently-To" for passing messages should fix it (Think it should be
fixed now?)

>   It was reported to the admins a couple of days ago - not sure why they
> haven't killed it yet except to say they're busy guys and some of these
> things are due to strange mail reflections which are difficult to track.

We're hardly the "Avenging Budgie" type - Family humor from childhood
when my sisters' dingbat Budgie decided, for some bird-brained reason,
to try to harass the family calico, dive bombing her repeatedly.  My
sister thought it was funny, at least until "Hoody" (Houdina Hacksaw,
long story!), CAUGHT her bird, and she had to rescue it before Hoody ate
it! <G>  I use the term for some small-minded petty tyrants - You know,
the pointy-haired kind =)

We (usually at least!) try to be patient and get peoples' attention,
then get the cause of the problem solved, fairly quickly - should be
solved now.  (We do have bad days, doesn't everyone?)

BTW, folks - If/When you do get Bounces like this, if you pass full
headers to me (or other Admins, I think James and Mike read headers as
well), or to the <.....piclist-requestRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU> address, I'll get at
the cause and bug them.  Or they will.

One common solution we try is to Set "Digest" mode on people where this
is happening - Seems to work as then there's no "Sender" and we don't
see multiple PICList members unhappy.  So, if you have a personal home
e-mail snagging server and get suddenly set to Digest, please check for
e-mail from an Admin before just setting it back to Mail NoDigest, see
if there's a problem - We don't change peoples' subscription settings
for NO reason, and, we e-mail you to try to tell you what the problem
IS, before doing anything like that!

>   I'm not sure for example whether the listserver puts unique IDs on to
> each copy of each message it resends or how easy it is to match these
> logs again if they cause a bounce.

The List Engine, *Used* to include a comment "X-Passed-To" (? or
something like that), in the headers - The latest revision has some GOOD
improvements, but, they removed that line from the output, Drat!  When
tracking these, full headers are necessary, but now they just point me
at the proper ISP, don't necessarily tell me which of several people
there it is - Most of us are 1 to an ISP, fortunately - so usually
works, but I'll ask L-Soft to undo their removing that, it was HANDY
<G>  Also will ask them to just plain NOT send a "Duplicate" message in
this situation, just throw the message away if they've already sent it
out...

>   The important thing is that until the bogus message the listserver
> returns to the original sender is fixed, which I am assured it will be
> :) soon, that senders do *NOT* re-send any messages.

Exactly!  The problem's that the list sends a message out to us all -
someone's (at home, slightly misconfigured) e-mail server bounces a copy
back to the "Send to whole list" address - and the L-Soft list engine
then rejects it, mistakenly sending a message TO the original sender,
thinking the original sender posted it twice;  Want to get both causes
of this fixed, not the symptoms!

> --
>   Cheers,
>         Paul B.

2000\05\18@132834 by jamesnewton

We did kill it, and emailed Dave to tell him why. Yesterday, he said he had
it fixed and resubscribed. It isn't fixed so he has been dumped again and
told why.

Paul, your suggested replacement for the listserver message looks ok, but
I'd like to tone the sarcasm down a bit, and discus it with the other list
admins first.

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
KILLspamjamesnewtonTakeThisOuTpiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

{Original Message removed}

2000\05\18@185619 by Mark Willis

We're checking - Mike's afraid that LSoft hard-coded the message,
sadly.  I'll be writing a note to L-Soft suggesting some mods!

 Mark

James Newton wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> We did kill it, and emailed Dave to tell him why. Yesterday, he said he had
> it fixed and resubscribed. It isn't fixed so he has been dumped again and
> told why.
>
> Paul, your suggested replacement for the listserver message looks ok, but
> I'd like to tone the sarcasm down a bit, and discus it with the other list
> admins first.
>
> ---
> James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
> TakeThisOuTjamesnewtonspam_OUTpiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
> PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org
>

> {Original Message removed}

'[Admin] Some new addresses for list functions'
2000\05\19@155444 by Mike Werner

In poking through some more of the documentation for the list
server, I ran across some additional addresses that exist.
As it turns out, there are addresses specifically for
subscribing and unsubscribing.

To subscribe, you can use:
RemoveMEpiclist-subscribe-requestspamSTOPspammitvma.mit.edu

To unsubscribe, you can use either of:
.....piclist-unsubscribe-requestEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu> spamBeGonepiclist-signoff-requestRemoveMEmitvma.mit.edu

Nothing need be in the subject or the body.  Just a blank
message sent to the address will suffice.

Not that we *want* anyone to leave, but for those that must
leave for whatever reason there's now an easier way to do so.
--
Mike Werner  KA8YSD           |  "Where do you want to go today?"
                             |  "As far from Redmond as possible!"
'91 GS500E                    |
Morgantown WV                 |  Only dead fish go with the flow.

'[ADMIN] New list feature implemented'
2000\05\22@232741 by Mike Werner

Greetings folks.  As you may remember the list admins have
been considering implementing topics on this list.  For those
that might have missed the original post from James Newton,
here's the first part of it again:

<James_newton_quote>
We (the list admins) have found a new feature in the list server software
that may provide a much better way of handling on and off topic (and sort of
off topic, etc..) posts. It would cause the list to work a bit differently
and might cause some confusion at first so we want to explain it and get
some feedback from the list on how best to implement it.

The new version of the list server can track "topics" by looking for
keywords or tags at the start of the subject line (after skipping past the
fw: or re:). It will then filter posts FOR the list members according to
which topics they wish to receive. For example, if we set the possible
topics to:
[PIC], [EE], [OT], and [AD]
we can set "topics of interest to subscribers" to [PIC] only and you will
only see posts with subject lines that start with "[PIC]:" (or "re: [PIC]:"
or "FW: [PIC]:" etc...). Of course you can send a simple command to the list
server that "turns on" the other topics as well. For example if you also
wanted to see [EE] posts (not directly related to the PIC, but still about
engineering) you could send:
.....LISTSERVEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU?body=SET PICLIST TOPICS: +[EE]
</James_newton_quote>

Well, we finally decided to go ahead and do it.  The results as
reported by James were overall in favor of this.  And it has now
been done.  Those currently subscribed to the PICList need not
worry about missing any posts - you're settings have been automatically
changed by the server to receive all topics.  If you decide you
wish to not receive a certain topic, you may do so by sending:
spamLISTSERVspam_OUT@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU?body=SET PICLIST TOPICS: -[EE]
for example, if you wanted to not receive the EE topic.

The topics that have been implemented are the same four as listed by
James.  But as a reiteration, they are:
[PIC] - this is for posts that are about PICs
[EE] - this is for posts that are not necessarily about PICs, but
      are still of interest to the EE community.  An example post
      that would fit this topic would be discussion of the Scenix
      chip.  Or any other microcontroller, for that matter.
[AD] - this is for advertisements of a commercial product or service
[OT] - this is for the way out there stuff. Remember the chicken
      catapult thread?  This is were that thread would go.

Actually, there is a fifth topic.  That one is called Other.  This
topic is where the server puts posts that are either unlabelled or
labelled with a label that the server doesn't recognize.

We understand that this'll be a bit confusing at first.  But we
think that once everyone gets the hang of this, it'll make life
for everyone a little easier.
--
Mike Werner  KA8YSD           |  "Where do you want to go today?"
                             |  "As far from Redmond as possible!"
'91 GS500E                    |
Morgantown WV                 |  Only dead fish go with the flow.

'[ADMIN] [READ THIS] Last try for topics'
2000\05\25@141426 by jamesnewton

Ok, last time, then we just dump it...

SUBJECT LINES IN POSTS TO THE PICLIST NEED TO START WITH ONE OF:

[PIC]:
[EE]:
[OT]:
[AD]:

If you don't use one of these, other people will not see your posts. People
who are interested only in the PIC itself listen to [PIC], people who are
also interested in general engineering issues also listen to [EE] and people
who are also interested in anything PICListers have to say also listen to
[OT]. People who are interested in buying or selling also listen to [AD].
Please pick one that matches the subject of your post and type it at the
start of the subject line (don't forget the colon) and then continue.

The point of this is that it will reduce the likelihood of people posting
comments about the space program with [PIC]: at the start of the subject
line. Then you can tell the list server to only send [PIC]: topics. Also
reduces the workload for the VOLUNTEER, UNPAID, ADMINS (HINT, HINT) <GLARE>

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
spamjamesnewton@spam@STOPspampiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

2000\05\25@150701 by Quentin

2000\05\25@151530 by jamesnewton

It would remove the reminder of having typed [PIC]: which many people need
to be able to realize "hey, this really isn't about PICs, is it?"

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
spamBeGonejamesnewtonspamBeGone@spam@piclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list
[RemoveMEPICLISTRemoveMERemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Quentin
Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 12:04
To: PICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [ADMIN] [READ THIS] Last try for topics


I still think you are going to have a tough time convincing people to
post a PIC topic to a PIC list with a [PIC] header. Drop that one and
police the people who post a non PIC message to the list rather.

Quentin

2000\05\25@155116 by jamesnewton

And this may have been a bad idea...

...so if it doesn't work out, we will dump it.

I'm just getting very tired of constantly reminding people to mark off topic
posts.

Because, you see, the way it has ALWAYS been involves someone manually
looking at each post (that is me) and then saying (privately, to the poster)
"Hey, what the hell does that have to do with PICs and why are you wasting
everyone's time" and then they say "Oh, right, sorry I forgot" and hopefully
they remember for a week or two until they need to post another question
about Linux (or pick a non-PIC subject) again.

The DIFFERENT way, if they post with out thinking, they will get ONE reply
from the autoresponder saying "Um, didn't you want to post on a given
topic?"

I just wish there was a way to allow people to talk about whatever with the
good and interesting people of the list without them constantly
(accidentally, or whatever) stepping on the need of others to limit their
reading to posts that are actually about PICs.

Forcing everyone to type [PIC]: at the start of the subject line ensures
that they know they are about to write something directly related to the
PIC, while still allowing them to type [OT]: and then talk about UFO's.

<WHINE>But if its too much, then its too much.... 5 little character
characters they can't type</WHINE>

<GRIN>

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
spam_OUTjamesnewton@spam@piclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

{Original Message removed}

2000\05\25@155309 by jamesnewton

Your point is well taken, but if people are "allowed" to post with out a
topic there are two problems....

1) newbies, etc.. who forget that they need to assign a topic will not get
thier post seen by the PIC only people. They will go away thinking no-one
wanted or could help them. I plan to start an autoresponder that reminds
people to TAG subject lines when they post without one.

2) if a bunch of people are posting interesting things to the non-topic
area, people who want to hear that will start wondering what they are
missing and turn it back on. "Oh, we just answered that on the non-topic
channel, don't you subscribe to that?"

But if the way we are talking about now, doesn't work out, I'll be happy to
try something else.

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
TakeThisOuTjamesnewtonspam_OUTpiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

{Original Message removed}

'[AD]: TCP/IP SEIKO STARTER KIT (USING THE PARALLEL'
2000\05\26@143352 by WF

2000\05\26@152941 by Andrew Seddon

2000\05\26@162056 by WF

No, i have the Specctra Autoroute 7.1, i did pay for it U$1245,00

Miguel

----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Seddon <KILLspamseddona.....TakeThisOuTHOTMAIL.COM>
To: <TakeThisOuTPICLISTEraseMERemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Friday, May 26, 2000 5:26 AM
Subject: [AD]: TCP/IP SEIKO STARTER KIT (USING THE PARALLEL PORT)


> > Here some pictures... ;) of my STARTER KIT
>
> I see you have protel autoroute syndrome as well. I just can`t bring
myself
> to spend 2 days routing it myself when protel does an OK job in 5 minutes.

'[ADMIN] [READ THIS] Last try for topics'
2000\05\26@191410 by Russell McMahon

2000\05\26@191414 by Russell McMahon

2000\05\27@033932 by Mark Willis

2000\05\27@120424 by Dan Michaels

2000\05\28@071741 by Alan B Pearce

2000\05\28@152734 by Mark Willis

'[AD]: New DT209 SimmStick Expansion board now avai'
2000\05\29@230233 by Don McKenzie

30-May-2000
New DT209 SimmStick Expansion board now available.

DT209 I/O Expansion Board on a SimmStick This board utilizes three I2C
bus expansion integrated circuits to provide a total of 24 expansion
lines. Each of the three port chips provides 8 i/o lines. These 24 i/o
lines allow for input and output expansion without sacrificing any of
the general control lines on the SimmBus.
http://www.dontronics.com/dt209.html

This interfaces directly with the available SimmSticks for the PICmicro
18, 28, and 40 pin families.

Don McKenzie    spam_OUTdonRemoveME.....dontronics.com      http://www.dontronics.com

The World's Largest Range of Atmel/AVR  & PICmicro Hardware and Software
Free Basic Compiler and Programmer http://www.dontronics.com/runavr.html
The Little "rAVeR!" AVR & Basic Kit http://www.dontronics.com/dt006.html

'[ADMIN] Did the filtering scheme get abandoned?'
2000\05\30@122047 by Don B. Roadman

2000\05\30@140636 by Mark Willis

'[AD] LCD Displays'
2000\05\30@203840 by mike

LCD displays from DELL laptop computers, still in
laptop cover.

Don't have any spec or info and don't know how to test
them, so I am selling "as is", each unit for $22 plus
shipping.
Have about 20 units. Free shipping if you take all.

email to <spamlktronKILLspamKILLspamyahoo.com> or call 323-972-7528




__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com/

'[ADMIN] [READ THIS] Last try for topics'
2000\05\31@112627 by jamesnewton

That is what I had intended as a permanent solution. Whether non tagged
messages are sent to members is up to each member, rather than to me or the
autoresponder. If you know what you are doing and you remove your
subscription to the OTHER: topic, you will no longer see non tagged
messages.

[ADMIN] will be sent to topic ALL: which is a special tag that sends the
message to all subscribers no matter what.

[RELIGION] could possibly be set up under [OT]: Lets get this working and
then talk again about it.

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
spamjamesnewtonspam_OUTpiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

{Original Message removed}

2000\06\03@191605 by Mark Willis

2000\06\03@205810 by Mike Werner

Mark Willis wrote:
> Hi, Brian.  (Replied on list as other people may hit this sort of
> problem.)
>
> I don't know if getting at those headers is possible;  Mike is the
> expert on L-Soft manuals and list settings that we admins CAN get at

::blush:: I wouldn't quite say that.

{Quote hidden}

> <G>  We try to keep the number of messages we receive, somewhat down -
> as it could mean another large bunch of "This message hasn't arrived
> yet" etc. messages a day otherwise - the crew inside MIT handle a good
> number of these settings, plus, most all PICList messages are actually
> distributed through L-Soft's mail sending server - as we never see these
> error messages, it's hard to figure out who to ask for a full-headers
> copy (I'm not sure a human ever reads these!)  We don't even get a
> message when a user's unsubscribed by the list for too many Bounce
> messages, only way we can tell about that is to ask for a membership
> roster of the list or specifics on a particular (ex-) list member.

I've set the server to pass me error messages.  Or, at least I *think*
I managed to do so.  As it currently stands, errors are being handled
in multiple locations, depending on the error.  So that'll make it a
bit tricky to find exactly what is happening with Brian's bounces.  But
I'll keep an eye on what error messages I get.  Brian, next time you
get unsubbed due to a bounce, email me directly to let me know.  My
address is:
STOPspamreznaeousspam_OUTspamBeGoneearthlink.net

{Quote hidden}

> I do know you can send a re-subscribe message on a regular basis (cron
> and a mail sender daemon?), and the listserve will just tell you you're
> already on the list most of the time, is one possibility, when you get a
> subscription verification you'll know to answer it quickly, if you have
> a mail auto-sender.
>
> The problem's not going to be with your account, BTW - suggest to them
> that they TraceRoute to cherry.ease.lsoft.com [209.119.0.109] as that's
> likely the machine the messages come to you from - if it's a direct
> connection, then probably their inbound SMTP server has problems and is
> bouncing mail that arrives there from LSoft.  I cc'ed you on this to
> hope that I could get a bounce, if I do I'll share the headers with you
> (somehow <G>)
>
>   Mark
>
> Brian Gracia wrote:
> > I have been unsubscribbed from this list a number of times in the last few
> > months.  I have been talking with the tech support staff and they cannot
> > find a problem with my account.  They are requesting a copy of any messages
> > that bounce so they can figure out what is going on.  Can you set up the
> > listserv software so that when you send me the notice saying I have been
> > unsubscribbed because of bounced emails, I can get a copy of the header
> > files and any messages from their server as to why.

I tried to see if that was possible, but didn't have much luck.  The closest
I could find was how to send you *every* error and bounce that comes through.
But I figured you *really* didn't want that. ::grin::

> > I was lasted kicked off this list because of 2 emails bounces in several
> > days.  I could use some better help to determine what the problem might be
> > other than the standard message the list spits out.

We'll see what we can find out for you.  Hopefully something will turn
up in the messages I'll (hopefully) be receiving now.
--
Mike Werner  KA8YSD           |  "Where do you want to go today?"
                             |  "As far from Redmond as possible!"
'91 GS500E                    |
Morgantown WV                 |  Only dead fish go with the flow.

'[ADMIN]: Duplicate messages'
2000\06\05@134633 by Bob Blick

'[ADMIN]: All these tags...'
2000\06\05@142821 by Phillip Vogel

What a pain in the butt. How about this for a possible scheme: The PICLIST is
for discussion of topics specifically related to PICs. Anything else should be
discussed in a different list or newsgroup.

C'mon, liquid level sensing? truck tachometers? These both had [PIC]: labels.
Unfused toner? yeah, maybe EE, but barely. It was MUCH quieter when I could
just filter out [OT].

If this doesn't make sense, then I suggest that we include tags for every
usenet newsgroup [alt.binaries.my.whole.hard.drive]:, [sci.electronics.cad]:
(now there's a novel place to talk about cad systems).

My point is, I subscribed to the PICLIST to get and share PIC information.
Mailing list software (and mail reading software) is just not sophisticated
enought to try to replace usenet, which is what you're trying to do with all
these tags. Sigh...
--
Phillip M. Vogel, President   | "It's not what you've been taught,
Bartal Design Group, Inc.     |  it's what you've learned." (me)
318 Marlboro Road             | +1-201-567-1343 FAX:+1-201-568-2891
Englewood, NJ 07631  USA      | spam_OUTphillipspamBeGonebartal.com

'[ADMIN]: All these tags are fine...'
2000\06\05@151850 by Chris Eddy

'[ADMIN]: All these tags...'
2000\06\05@153958 by M. Adam Davis

Well, you make some good points.  Unfortunately the PICList is growing, and as
the number of messages has increased (both on topic and off) we have had to deal
with more information.  Subdividing the current scheme (Two subdivisions:
Regular and [OT]) into a few more subdivisions has allowed me to deal with
messages more effectively.  Sometimes I have time to check [PIC] [EE] [OT], etc,
and sometimes I can only read a few [PIC].  Being able to tell the difference
right away (and thus giving first priority to piclist specific messages) has
helped me out.

But hey, I'm easy.  If the multiple topics idea receives a lot of bad comments,
it'll go the way of the dinosaur.  I can work either way.

-Adam

Phillip Vogel wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>
> What a pain in the butt. How about this for a possible scheme: The PICLIST is
> for discussion of topics specifically related to PICs. Anything else should be
> discussed in a different list or newsgroup.
>
> C'mon, liquid level sensing? truck tachometers? These both had [PIC]: labels.
> Unfused toner? yeah, maybe EE, but barely. It was MUCH quieter when I could
> just filter out [OT].
>
> If this doesn't make sense, then I suggest that we include tags for every
> usenet newsgroup [alt.binaries.my.whole.hard.drive]:, [sci.electronics.cad]:
> (now there's a novel place to talk about cad systems).
>
> My point is, I subscribed to the PICLIST to get and share PIC information.
> Mailing list software (and mail reading software) is just not sophisticated
> enought to try to replace usenet, which is what you're trying to do with all
> these tags. Sigh...
> --
> Phillip M. Vogel, President   | "It's not what you've been taught,
> Bartal Design Group, Inc.     |  it's what you've learned." (me)
> 318 Marlboro Road             | +1-201-567-1343 FAX:+1-201-568-2891
> Englewood, NJ 07631  USA      | EraseMEphillipKILLspambartal.com

'[ADMIN]: All these tags are fine...'
2000\06\05@154412 by James Paul

I tend to agree with Chris.   I think the list is fine the way it
is.  I also agree that there is a lot of chaff with the wheat, but
that's why there is a delete key with every computer.  You just
delete the posts that don't interest you.  I get well over 100
posts a day, most from the PIC list.  It takes me all of 5 minutes
to weed out the ones I have no interest in at all, if I take my time.
Less if I'm in a hurry.  Then I read those that do interest me.
The point is for the amount of effort it takes to delete all the
OT posts that you (I) don't want to see, it just doesn't make any
sense (to me anyway) to raise all this cane about things such as:

"make sure you put this in the subject line"  ...or..

"don't discuss this particular subject"  ..or..

"make sure all subjects are in this order"  ..or..

whatever it is.   It seems to me that more energy is spent (wasted)
in verbalizing what you should and shouldn't do than it would take
to delete those posts that are not on subjcet or specifically deal
with PIC processors.   Mind you I don't condone this type of
behavior.  And I think things should be done the correct way.
But, as far as I'm concerned, it's not worth the bother it would
take me to complain and make the other person comply.  Just as soon
as you get one person straightened out, two more appear.  It would
be a losing battle.


The knowledge of the members of this list is an awesome resource.
That knowledge and expertise comes at a price.  And in my opinion,
a very small price.  That price being you have to deal with the
posts that you are not interested in to get the information you
are interested in.   Come on people, what do you expect, really?
We live in an imperfect world, and no amount of complaining or
restructuring of protocol will make it perfect.  You can always
improve things, but they'll never be perfect.  This list is one of
those things.

Bottom line from my perspective...

I'll take the chaff with the wheat. I get rid of the chaff myself,
and live on the wheat.  No one need be the wiser.

I also think James is doing a fine job administering this list.

Last but not least, for those who want to give me their reasons
why I'm full of it regarding what I just said, address all emails
to EraseMEjimswrongRemoveMEjpes.com.   I'll read each one.   If requested, I'll
apologise to those that are offended by my statements.

Okay, I'm done now.


                                           Regards,

                                             Jim



On Mon, 05 June 2000, Chris Eddy wrote:

{Quote hidden}

>
> Phillip;  We appreciate your thoughts on the matter.  But I think that the list
> works magnificently!  The idea is to allow PIC people, who struggle through a long
> list of disciplines, to have access to a fast forum to solve knowledge problems.
> I think that James N is doing a great job of administering.  I think the tags are
> fine, even though I will keep getting all of it anyhow.  I have gotten good at
> swiping entire subjects when they do not interest me.
>
> The PIClist is working stupendously well for an informal collection of
> non-affiliated people.  I welcome improvements, and nothing to strip down the
> content which already takes place.
>
> I may be injecting personal preference, but I think that religion and politics
> would be best elsewhere.  Unless a very religious PIC engineer is running for
> office.  As we cover the globe, there is far too much oportunity to offend on
> these topics.  I would not portend to lecture a Muslim on my beliefs.
>
> All in favor, say EYE.
>
> Chris Eddy
>
> Phillip Vogel wrote:
>
> > What a pain in the butt. How about this for a possible scheme: The PICLIST is
> > for discussion of topics specifically related to PICs. Anything else should be
> > discussed in a different list or newsgroup.

.....jimspam_OUTjpes.com

2000\06\05@155032 by James Paul

I tend to agree with Chris.   I think the list is fine the way it
is.  I also agree that there is a lot of chaff with the wheat, but
that's why there is a delete key with every computer.  You just
delete the posts that don't interest you.  I get well over 100
posts a day, most from the PIC list.  It takes me all of 5 minutes
to weed out the ones I have no interest in at all, if I take my time.
Less if I'm in a hurry.  Then I read those that do interest me.
The point is for the amount of effort it takes to delete all the
OT posts that you (I) don't want to see, it just doesn't make any
sense (to me anyway) to raise all this cane about things such as:

"make sure you put this in the subject line"  ...or..

"don't discuss this particular subject"  ..or..

"make sure all subjects are in this order"  ..or..

whatever it is.   It seems to me that more energy is spent (wasted)
in verbalizing what you should and shouldn't do than it would take
to delete those posts that are not on subjcet or specifically deal
with PIC processors.   Mind you I don't condone this type of
behavior.  And I think things should be done the correct way.
But, as far as I'm concerned, it's not worth the bother it would
take me to complain and make the other person comply.  Just as soon
as you get one person straightened out, two more appear.  It would
be a losing battle.


The knowledge of the members of this list is an awesome resource.
That knowledge and expertise comes at a price.  And in my opinion,
a very small price.  That price being you have to deal with the
posts that you are not interested in to get the information you
are interested in.   Come on people, what do you expect, really?
We live in an imperfect world, and no amount of complaining or
restructuring of protocol will make it perfect.  You can always
improve things, but they'll never be perfect.  This list is one of
those things.

Bottom line from my perspective...

I'll take the chaff with the wheat. I get rid of the chaff myself,
and live on the wheat.  No one need be the wiser.

I also think James is doing a fine job administering this list.

Last but not least, for those who want to give me their reasons
why I'm full of it regarding what I just said, address all emails
to @spam@jimswrongEraseMEspamjpes.com.   I'll read each one.   If requested, I'll
apologise to those that are offended by my statements.

Okay, I'm done now.


                                           Regards,

                                             Jim



On Mon, 05 June 2000, Chris Eddy wrote:

{Quote hidden}

>
> Phillip;  We appreciate your thoughts on the matter.  But I think that the list
> works magnificently!  The idea is to allow PIC people, who struggle through a long
> list of disciplines, to have access to a fast forum to solve knowledge problems.
> I think that James N is doing a great job of administering.  I think the tags are
> fine, even though I will keep getting all of it anyhow.  I have gotten good at
> swiping entire subjects when they do not interest me.
>
> The PIClist is working stupendously well for an informal collection of
> non-affiliated people.  I welcome improvements, and nothing to strip down the
> content which already takes place.
>
> I may be injecting personal preference, but I think that religion and politics
> would be best elsewhere.  Unless a very religious PIC engineer is running for
> office.  As we cover the globe, there is far too much oportunity to offend on
> these topics.  I would not portend to lecture a Muslim on my beliefs.
>
> All in favor, say EYE.
>
> Chris Eddy
>
> Phillip Vogel wrote:
>
> > What a pain in the butt. How about this for a possible scheme: The PICLIST is
> > for discussion of topics specifically related to PICs. Anything else should be
> > discussed in a different list or newsgroup.

jimTakeThisOuTKILLspamjpes.com

'[ADMIN]: All these tags...'
2000\06\05@155240 by jamesnewton

Um... I don't understand why you can't still filter out [OT]...???? In fact,
you can filter out [EE] and [AD] as well now... isn't that better, not
worse? Also, you can tell the list server to filter them out for you.

I'd love to hear any specific suggestions on how we can make it better...

I certainly agree that a significant number of members are still not using
the tags as they should and not respecting other members time and/or desire
to stay on topic, but I don't know that removing the tags will improve the
situation. At least people actually have to type [PIC]: when they start a
thread and it should, at least once in a while, remind them that the [PIC]:
tag for PICs only. I'd like to hear your reasons for thinking that we are
better off without using....

[PIC]:
       This label is for posts that are strictly on the topic of PICs.

[EE]:
       This label is for topics that, while not necessarily about PICs, are of
general interest to the EE community.

[AD]:
       This label is for posts advertising a commercial product or service.

[OT]:
       This label is for posts that are completely off the topic of PICs.

When I found myself in your shoes some months ago, I starting sending little
reminders to people (not via the list but directly to the poster) when I saw
posts that had nothing to do with PICs and were not marked [OT]. I looks
like I will never escape the need for that. Are you available to spend some
time helping? Or are you aware of someone (that I'm not) who is getting paid
to help moderate the list and hasn't been doing their for however long?

In fact, let me just ask everyone... if you see someone posting a message
that has DICK to do with PICs under the [PIC]: topic please send them a
friendly little note (no need to be a butt about it) asking them to keep in
mind that this tag is for PIC issues only. If you would like to use it, I've
included my little message which seems to work ok. It doesn't usually cause
a huge flame reaction and most often gets a "oops, sorry" response.

<BLOCKQUOTE>
Just a quick note: the below listed post, which you sent to the PICLIST, has
nothing to do with PICs and [PIC]: was at the start of the subject line.
Putting this tag at the beginning of the subject line, causes the message to
be sent to people who have requested that only posts directly related to the
PIC be sent to them. Consider instead adding one of the following:

[EE]:
       This label is for topics that, while not necessarily about PICs, are of
general interest to the EE community.

[AD]:
       This label is for posts advertising a commercial product or service.

[OT]:
       This label is for posts that are completely off the topic of PICs.


The rest of this message is long winded B.S. Feel free to ignore it:

Please understand, I really don't want to offend you or in any way
discourage you from posting your valuable information (or funny remarks
<GRIN>) to the PICLIST.

I'm just pointing out that people who only want to read engineering post
about the PIC would not be able to filter out your post by setting up the
list server or their email program to delete non-PIC subjects.

If you remember to add [EE]:, [OT]:, or [AD]: you can help retain people
(resources) on the list who don't have time or bandwidth to follow
non-[PIC]: posts.

You can post just about anything to the PIC list. Just mark the tread [OT]:
and that's enough for us. If list members don't like it... they can filter
it....

As I have advised other before, if a list member doesn't like something said
in a post they can send the "offenders" <GRIN> a private email asking them
to mark [OT]s. If they get buried, maybe they will. ..or maybe they will
drop off the list and then part of the SIGNAL will be gone forever rather
than just buried in the noise. I don't want to loose your signal and I won't
keep sending you this "reminder" email if you reply and tell me to stop.

My goal is to keep people (like Tjaart, Scott Dattalo, and others and YOU)
from leaving the list rather than have their valuable time wasted by a rash
of off topic posts that are not tagged correctly.

Thanks for taking the time to read this. If you have other questions about
how to get the most out of the PICList, please see the PICList FAQ at:
http://www.piclist.com
</BLOCKQUOTE>

If enough people agree, and do this... mbar it will work better... That's
the best idea I have.

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
RemoveMEjamesnewtonTakeThisOuTpiclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

{Original Message removed}

2000\06\05@175002 by Don B. Roadman

On 5 Jun 2000, at 14:27, Phillip Vogel wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> What a pain in the butt. How about this for a possible scheme: The
> PICLIST is for discussion of topics specifically related to PICs.
> Anything else should be discussed in a different list or newsgroup.
>
> C'mon, liquid level sensing? truck tachometers? These both had [PIC]:
> labels. Unfused toner? yeah, maybe EE, but barely. It was MUCH quieter
> when I could just filter out [OT].
>
> If this doesn't make sense, then I suggest that we include tags for
> every usenet newsgroup [alt.binaries.my.whole.hard.drive]:,
> [sci.electronics.cad]: (now there's a novel place to talk about cad
> systems).
>
> My point is, I subscribed to the PICLIST to get and share PIC
> information. Mailing list software (and mail reading software) is just
> not sophisticated enought to try to replace usenet, which is what
> you're trying to do with all these tags. Sigh... -- Phillip M. Vogel,
> President   | "It's not what you've been taught, Bartal Design Group,
> Inc.     |  it's what you've learned." (me) 318 Marlboro Road
>    | +1-201-567-1343 FAX:+1-201-568-2891 Englewood, NJ 07631  USA
> | @spam@phillipSTOPspambartal.com
>

I sort of agree. In fact, I actually do agree, but before we throw all
this crap out, I do want to start a thread on how to remove stains
from clothes since I must launder some clothes that I used whilst
rebuilding an engine. And maybe I could slip in a thread on how to
install pasture fence posts, and ....Well, I guess you are right. We
really should throw all the crap out and stick to the subject of PIC. I
*DO* agree.
Don

2000\06\05@181114 by jamesnewton

Actually, the really cool thing about all this is that since the topic tag
in the subject line isn't a valid tag, everything that has been said on this
thread has been completely ignored (not even seen) by all the people who
have turned off the other channel by sending SET PICLIST TOPICS: -Other to
TakeThisOuTLISTSERVTakeThisOuTRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU or, in most email clients by clicking on:
spam_OUTLISTSERVspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU?body=SET%20PICLIST%20TOPICS:%20-Other

See... for the people who only subscribe to PIC topics to see a thread, you
have to have [PIC]: at the start of the subject line when you compose the
post.... Neat huh? <GRIN>

---
James Newton (PICList Admin #3)
jamesnewton.....@spam@piclist.com 1-619-652-0593
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com or .org

{Original Message removed}

2000\06\05@192104 by l.allen

2000\06\05@204306 by Bob Ammerman

'[AD]: Program PICs in Basic'
2000\06\05@210134 by chuck

If anybody want's to program PICs in Basic check out our packages at:
http://www.elproducts.com

=====
Chuck Hellebuyck
Electronic Products
spamBeGonechuckspam_OUTelproducts.com
*****Program PICs Like a Pro*********
Complete package for only $279.95
Includes: PBPro Compiler, EPIC Programmer, 16F84 PIC, Cable & Batteries
http://www.elproducts.com

__________________________________________________
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'[ADMIN]: All these tags...'
2000\06\06@093855 by KŸbek Tony

Hi,


>I'd love to hear any specific suggestions on how we can make it
better...

>I certainly agree that a significant number of members are still not
using
>the tags as they should and not respecting other members time and/or
desire
>to stay on topic, but I don't know that removing the tags will improve
the
>situation. At least people actually have to type [PIC]: when they start
a
>thread and it should, at least once in a while, remind them that the
[PIC]:
>tag for PICs only. I'd like to hear your reasons for thinking that we
are
>better off without using....

Hmm..reading the comments on this I think I've been convinced that this
just might be 'the right thing'. And looking more closely to the recent
postings
I also must confess that the 'mess' I saw is mostly due to subject line
LACKING these
tags.

[I'm] [all] [for][.]

/Tony




Tony KŸbek, Flintab AB            
ÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓ
E-mail: EraseMEtony.kubek.....flintab.com
ÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓÓ

'[ADMIN]: Suggestions'
2000\06\06@133844 by Peter L. Peres

Hi,

I have two suggestions wrt. piclist duplicates and message *quoting*:

1. Every mailing list I've ever been subscribed to, and that does not mean
much, has a mechanism that prevents re-posting of messages, no matter by
whom. And you know what, they all work. I cannot believe that a commercial
quality mailing list software like LISTSERV cannot implement this feature.
In particular the mailing list software cannot receive ANY messages that
have a 'Reply-To: pic microcontroller discussion list <spamPICLISTKILLspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>'
, and it should dump them on the floor immediately and directly (and notify
someone). (hint hint). Since lsoft.com is running its software on Digital
Unix (look at the headers), I *strongly* believe that this can be done in
about 30 minutes.

2. Almost 50% of the digest I got today was made up of (responders) quoting
messages in whole please note that we are all on the list, thus we all get
the messages proper, and have no use for duplicates, quoted or not. As a
minimum, cut the quoted message in the editor to leave only the relevant
idea(s) to be responded to.

wbr,
 Peter

2000\06\06@162210 by Don B. Roadman

On 6 Jun 2000, at 20:39, Peter L. Peres wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> Hi,
>
> I have two suggestions wrt. piclist duplicates and message *quoting*:
>
> 1. Every mailing list I've ever been subscribed to, and that does not
> mean much, has a mechanism that prevents re-posting of messages, no
> matter by whom. And you know what, they all work. I cannot believe
> that a commercial quality mailing list software like LISTSERV cannot
> implement this feature. In particular the mailing list software cannot
> receive ANY messages that have a 'Reply-To: pic microcontroller
> discussion list <PICLISTspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU>' , and it should dump them on
> the floor immediately and directly (and notify someone). (hint hint).
> Since lsoft.com is running its software on Digital Unix (look at the
> headers), I *strongly* believe that this can be done in about 30
> minutes.
>
> 2. Almost 50% of the digest I got today was made up of (responders)
> quoting messages in whole please note that we are all on the list,
> thus we all get the messages proper, and have no use for duplicates,
> quoted or not. As a minimum, cut the quoted message in the editor to
> leave only the relevant idea(s) to be responded to.
>
> wbr,
>   Peter
>

I get a lot of crap too. I wish there were a way to not only do what
you suggest, but also scan the messages for ignorance, and
delete those that have no relevant content.

2000\06\06@173717 by William K. Borsum