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PICList Thread
'No messages for more than a week'
1995\03\25@105727 by METMKALLEND

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I have received no PIC digests for more than a week now.  ARe you
all on vacation, or is something wrong with the listserver?

I guess an e-mail answer would be best, since I'm not getting the list.
Address is spam_OUTMETMKALLENDTakeThisOuTspamMINNA.IIT.EDU

Thanks.


jk


'MPASM 1.2 Messages.'
1995\07\10@033652 by Andrew Warren
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Nino Benci <.....Nino.BenciKILLspamspam@spam@SCI.MONASH.EDU.AU> asked:

>What does the following message mean. It is not explained in the
>usrguide.txt file.
>
>    Message: Using default destination of 1 (file)
>
>It does not occur consistentlyand the instructions that it preceeds
>are not always the same.

Nino:

The PIC instruction set allows the result of most file-oriented
instructions to be stored in either the file register itself or the
W-register.  One would normally use, for instance,

   INCF    REG,W

to store the result of the INCF in the W-register, and

   INCF    REG

to store the result back in register REG.

When you use the prior form of the instruction (since MPASM
automatically equates "W" to 0), you're actually saying

   INCF    REG,0

What many people apparently don't realize is that the latter form of
the instruction implies a trailing ",1":

   "INCF REG" is equivalent to "INCF REG,1".

Nobody in his right mind actually puts the ",1"s in his code; it's
time-consuming,  distracting, and it makes all instructions look sort
of like bit-oriented (BSF, BTFSS, etc.) instructions.

Someone in Microchip's Tech-Support Department, however, has decided
that it's a good idea to warn us that our code is doing exactly what we
want it to, so MPASM now generates the message whenever you properly
"forget" to explicitly specify the destination with a ",1".

I don't know anyone (including MPASM's author) who thinks this message
is a particularly good idea; as far as I can tell, its only purpose is
to allow stupid people to make their code as hard for us to read as it
is for them to write.

Sometime soon, MPASM will include a facility for selectively turning
off individual messages, warnings, and errors, so you'll be able to
keep the message from appearing in your .LST file.  Until then, you'll
just have to try to ignore it, I guess.

-Andy

--
Andrew Warren - fastfwdspamKILLspamix.netcom.com
Fast Forward Engineering, Vista, California


'MPASM message'
1995\08\27@001451 by Walter Anderson
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I'm getting a Message[302] in the following code and I do not
understand what I have done wrong to cause it.  Any ideas?

0023                00054 START
0023 1683           00056                 bsf     STATUS, RP0
0024 0064           00057                 clrwdt
0025 30A0           00058                 movlw   B'10100000'
0026 008B           00059                 movwf   INTCON
0027 30D4           00060                 movlw   B'11010100'
Message[302]: Argument out of range.  Least significant bits used.
0028 0081           00061                 movwf   OPTION_REG
0029 1283           00062                 bcf     STATUS, RP0

1995\08\27@011206 by Andrew Warren

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Walter Anderson <.....khadfwKILLspamspam.....ONRAMP.NET> wrote:

>I'm getting a Message[302] in the following code and I do not
>understand what I have done wrong to cause it.  Any ideas?
>
>0023                00054 START
>0023 1683           00056                 bsf     STATUS, RP0
>0024 0064           00057                 clrwdt
>0025 30A0           00058                 movlw   B'10100000'
>0026 008B           00059                 movwf   INTCON
>0027 30D4           00060                 movlw   B'11010100'
>Message[302]: Argument out of range.  Least significant bits used.
>0028 0081           00061                 movwf   OPTION_REG
>0029 1283           00062                 bcf     STATUS, RP0

Walter:

You haven't done anything wrong; the PIC's opcodes are only wide enough
to hold 7-bit addresses, which is why the "RP0" bit need to be set
before accessing registers with addresses greater than 7F.

The message refers to the "movwf OPTION_REG" instruction.  OPTION_REG
is at address 81 (too large to fit in the instruction), so MPASM uses
the least-significant 7 bits of the address (01).  If you examine the
generated machine-code ("0081"), you'll see that "movwf 81" actually
assembled to "movwf 01".

Your code will work just fine.  If you want to avoid this message in
the future, change the instruction to "movwf OPTION_REG ^ 0x80", or
change the OPTION_REG equate to "OPTION_REG EQU 0x81 ^ 0x80".

Or you could just leave it alone... I would, since the next version of
MPASM will allow messages, warnings, and errors to be individually
suppressed.

-Andy

--
Andrew Warren - EraseMEfastfwdspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTix.netcom.com
Fast Forward Engineering, Vista, California


'bounced messages'
1995\10\23@215122 by First Last
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I think what some of you are perceiving as bounced messages is really
that some address on the list is bad and the server is
sending a message that that particular piece did not get delivered.
Although the rest got through.

Any list experts that can confirm/deny this?

1995\10\24@004006 by Andrew Warren

face
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First Last <gskinnerspamspam_OUTAPX.COM> wrote:

>I think what some of you are perceiving as bounced messages is really
>that some address on the list is bad and the server is
>sending a message that that particular piece did not get delivered.
>Although the rest got through.
>
>Any list experts that can confirm/deny this?

Gary:

The messages we're talking about are NOT those standard "Undeliverable
Mail" messages.  The PICLIST list-server is smart enough to reject
posts that are duplicates of previous ones (a nice feature; sometimes
mailreaders run amok and send multiple copies of messages), but
something recently must have gone wrong with the list-server, because
it seems to ALWAYS think that it's received two copies of each message.

Oh, by the way... If anyone's getting "Host Name Not Found" errors from
their server's mail-router, it's because the PICLIST's "From:" line has
been somehow corrupted:  The "%" in "piclist%mitcma.bitnet@...." has
been changed to an "@", so if your mailreader sends replies to the
"From:" address instead of the "Reply-To" address (NetCruiser and some
other readers do this), none of your replies will get anywhere.

You can fix this problem either by configuring your mailreader to send
replies to the "Reply-To:" address, or by manually changing the address
each time you send a reply.  Jory Bell (keeper of the PICLIST) has been
notified of this problem, but I think he's out of town for a week or
two, so it may not be resolved for a while.

-Andy

--
Andrew Warren - @spam@fastfwdKILLspamspamix.netcom.com
Fast Forward Engineering, Vista, California

'Message quoting (was: New PICs.....)'
1995\10\27@165809 by Sheldon Ward

picon face
At 01:04 PM 10/23/95 -0600, you wrote:
>I don't know how to get this note to the list - It keeps getting bounced back
>because it is supposedly identical to a "previous" note.  Maybe this sentence
>will help???

I believe it is because your message is 95% quoting!  Unless the message is
very old (over 2 weeks) that you are replying to you don't need to quote
much for people to know what it is about.  They likely read it and can
recall.  If not they can always look it up.  Try to only quote relevant
lines, not the whole message.  It just bogs down the systems when you quote
to much.

>        Could you tell us how much the PIC14000 is selling for?

This is the only line you needed.  The rest is irrelevant.

And of course don't quote the signature.


Later,


Sheldon
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*                                                                   *
* KILLspamSheldonKILLspamspamDirect.Ca            In beautiful Langley, B.C., Canada   *
*                                                                   *
* The opinions expressed herein do not necessarily reflect my own.  *
*                                                                   *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


'READ THIS IF YOU"RE GETTING "REJECTED MESSAGE" MES'
1995\11\03@161853 by Andrew Warren
face
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The list-server running the PICLIST isn't working properly; for some
reason, it thinks that each message posted to the list is being posted
multiple times.  As a result, it's sending "Rejected Message" messages
back to the sender of each message.

Ignore these messages.  Do NOT re-post your message; if you've gotten
the "Rejected Message" message, it means that one copy has already been
distributed to the list.

If you want proof that your messages are being distributed, send e-mail
to the listserver with the following text in the body of your message:

   set piclist ack repro

Ok?

-Andy

--
Andrew Warren - RemoveMEfastfwdTakeThisOuTspamix.netcom.com
Fast Forward Engineering, Vista, California

1995\11\04@043642 by Don McKenzie

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On Fri, 3 Nov 1995, Andrew Warren wrote:

> The list-server running the PICLIST isn't working properly; for some
> reason, it thinks that each message posted to the list is being posted
> multiple times.  As a result, it's sending "Rejected Message" messages
> back to the sender of each message.
>
> Ignore these messages.  Do NOT re-post your message; if you've gotten
> the "Rejected Message" message, it means that one copy has already been
> distributed to the list.
>
> If you want proof that your messages are being distributed, send e-mail
> to the listserver with the following text in the body of your message:
>
>     set piclist ack repro
>
> Ok?
>
> -Andy

Thanks Andy, I thought we had a pacific oscillation problem down under
here. Thought they (my messages) may be wandering around the world looking
for a place to rest.

Will try the ack text. Ta!.

Don...

 Low Cost DIY PCB's for PICs & COM1/LPT1 PC I/O Interface Kits    ;!
 Don McKenzie. 29 Ellesmere Cres., Tullamarine. 3043 Australia    ;@
 Tel +61 3 9338 6286 Mobile  +61 19 939 799 spamBeGonedonmckspamBeGonespamtbsa.com.au    ;#
 Check My Promo Disk at http://rasi.lr.ttu.ee/~sis/mirror/don/    ;$
 Type: 'finger TakeThisOuTdonmckEraseMEspamspam_OUTtbsa.com.au|more'  for more information.


'DUPLICATE PICLIST MESSAGES (was: "Floppy drive spe'
1995\12\18@232042 by Andrew Warren
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Adam Eberbach <RemoveMEadamspamTakeThisOuTDATAPLEX.COM.AU> wrote:

> This message is being 're-forwarded' - the list thinks I'm sending a
> duplicate. Dumb list.

   So let me get this straight, Adam...

   The list server tells you that you've already sent two copies of
   the message, and your response is to send yet another copy and
   call the LIST dumb?  Hmm...

   I've posted this message about three times so far... Here it is
   again:

       READ THIS IF YOU'RE GETTING "DUPLICATE MESSAGE" WARNINGS
       FROM THE "PICLIST" LIST SERVER:

       The list server software includes a helpful feature which
       screens out duplicate messages.  If your mailreader program
       (or your brain) takes a vacation and you accidentally send a
       hundred copies of a single message to the list, the list
       server will bounce all the duplicates back to you with a
       warning.  This is a good thing.

       However...

       There's a bug in the PICLIST's list server software:
       Occasionally, you'll get a "duplicate message" warning when
       you've only posted one copy of your message.

       IGNORE THIS WARNING.  DO NOT RE-SEND YOUR MESSAGE!

       Think for a second:  Even if the warning WERE valid, it
       would still mean that at least one copy of your message DID
       make it to the list.

   If you don't trust the list server to handle your mail properly,
   send a message to the list server with the following body text:

               SET PICLIST REPRO

       This will make the list server send a copy of your messages
       to you, as well as to everyone else on the PICLIST.

       Ok...

> > > I may be a little off topic, but does anyone know how to get a
> > > floppy drive to spin at 750 rpm. I am using old 5.25 drives, the
> > > motor seems to have a comparator and bridge driver, but the
> > > adjusment pot makes little difference.

   Most old 5.25 drives run at around 300 RPM, and the adjustment
   pot only affects this speed by (maybe) 10 percent either way.  I'm
   not surprised that you can't get yours to adjust to 750.

   If you're aware of this and trying to double the speed for a
   reason (or if your drive is really supposed to run at 750 RPM)
   you can certainly make it run at whatever speed you like.

   If, on the other hand, you're just trying to get a broken drive
   to work, perhaps you should try adjusting the speed to 300 RPM
   and seeing whether that fixes it.

   -Andy

Andrew Warren - fastfwdEraseMEspam.....ix.netcom.com
Fast Forward Engineering, Vista, California
http://www.geopages.com/SiliconValley/2499

1995\12\19@002059 by Ian Stirling

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I've seen the list send me a 'duplicate message recieved' when I've
only sent one, defiantely a bug somewhere.
--
Ian Stirling.                        |  http://web.students.stir.ac.uk/~is06
AKA Caeser, Bolonewbie.              |  Pretty sad at the moment, should get
                                    |  better tho.

1995\12\19@003137 by Adam Eberbach

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Forwarded message:
> > This message is being 're-forwarded' - the list thinks I'm sending a
> > duplicate. Dumb list.
>
>     So let me get this straight, Adam...
>
>     The list server tells you that you've already sent two copies of
>     the message, and your response is to send yet another copy and
>     call the LIST dumb?  Hmm...

No, the list is still dumb. The post which was supposedly a duplicate was
my first in months. I sent another copy because the list told me that my
first post was rejected. To accept and propagate the message while telling
me that it did the opposite is clearly and unequivocably dumb.

>         Think for a second:  Even if the warning WERE valid, it
>         would still mean that at least one copy of your message DID
>         make it to the list.

To the list server, not necessarily to the list.

Anyway, back to disk drives. I guess the original poster wants 750 rpm for
some reason? You're right, they are 300 rpm so the floppy drive probably
won't work. It might be a lot easier to take a hard disk (which will have a
higher speed) and try to find some multiple of 750 - if you found a 1500 or
3000 rpm drive you'd be laughing. Either add a sensor trigger to the platter or
wherever it's mounted, or delete some of the pulses coming from the speed
sensor.

Adam Eberbach, R&D Engineer, Dataplex Pty. Ltd.

1995\12\19@010123 by Clyde Smith-Stubbs

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Andrew Warren wrote:

>         There's a bug in the PICLIST's list server software:
>         Occasionally, you'll get a "duplicate message" warning when
>         you've only posted one copy of your message.

Occasionally my foot! It happens EVERY time. And I can well understand
that the first time it happens, the confused poster thinks, because he
is told so, that his message has NOT been posted, because the list
server THINKS it is the same as another recent message. He knows very
well it is not the same as another recent message, but it's stretching
that a bit far to be able to deduce that the list server is lying about
the fact that the message was not posted. And the message suggests
you change the posting slightly and repost it! So I don't think you
can criticize those who do that once too much - they're only doing
as told.

The solution, of course, is to FIX THE SERVER! But of course, we don't
live in a perfect world - we put up with MS-Dross for so long, why
shouldn't we put up with a brain-dead list server as well?

I apologize for venting my spleen, but really, let's be clear about
where the problem is - does the welcome message for the Piclist include
a note about the "idosyncracies" of the server?

It reminds me of the chip manufacturer who wanted a software manual
revised to eliminate references to "limitations" of the processor
architecture - they were to be referred to as "features" or "characteristics"
and if the software gave the hardware a helping hand it was "enhancing"
not "compensating".

>         IGNORE THIS WARNING.  DO NOT RE-SEND YOUR MESSAGE!

What about this warning - should it be ignored too? Oh, wait, this is
from a fallible human - it must be gospel.



--
Clyde Smith-Stubbs       | HI-TECH Software,       | Voice: +61 7 3300 5011
EraseMEclydespamhitech.com.au      | P.O. Box 103, Alderley, | Fax:   +61 7 3300 5246
http://www.hitech.com.au  | QLD, 4051, AUSTRALIA.   | BBS:   +61 7 3300 5235
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
FREE! Download our shareware (FREE for noncommercial use) MS-DOS C Compiler!
            Point your Web browser at http://www.hitech.com.au/

1995\12\19@074413 by William Kitchen

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Andrew Warren wrote:
>         There's a bug in the PICLIST's list server software:
>         Occasionally, you'll get a "duplicate message" warning when
>         you've only posted one copy of your message.
Thanks, Andy.  I was wondering why I was getting the duplicate message
warnings for messages that I could almost swear I only sent once.  I
thought that maybe my mail software was doing something strange or that I
had perhaps set something up wrong.

William Kitchen

1995\12\20@220223 by John Payson

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> No, the list is still dumb. The post which was supposedly a duplicate was
> my first in months. I sent another copy because the list told me that my
> first post was rejected. To accept and propagate the message while telling
> me that it did the opposite is clearly and unequivocably dumb.

I have a very strong suspicion that there is an address subscribed to the
list which is improperly bouncing messages such that the server doesn't
recognize them as bounces.  Thus, the sequence is:

 Your message goes to server
 It goes from there to everyone, including the failing address
 The failed address bounces
 The server sees the bounce and generates a "duplicate posting" message
   which it then sends to you [apparently the machine at the bad address
   munged the addresses in the message such that the server thought its
   bounce came from you].
 You see the "duplicate posting" message . . .

I think the best solution to this problem would probably be for the list
maintainer to send a message to all people on the list asking them NOT to
reply if they received the message, with the From: and Reply-to: set to
the list maintainer (not the list itself!).  This would then allow the
person maintaining the list to identify any addresses which are bouncing
and unsubscribe them from the list.

Does anyone see any problems with this strategy?

1995\12\20@233833 by Andrew Warren

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John Payson wrote:

> I think the best solution to this problem would probably be for the
> list maintainer to send a message to all people on the list ....
>
> Does anyone see any problems with this strategy?

   Just one, John...

   Jory Bell, the list maintainer, left the country a couple of
   months ago and is apparently still abroad; he doesn't seem to
   have checked in to the list since he left.

   -Andy

Andrew Warren - RemoveMEfastfwdEraseMEspamEraseMEix.netcom.com
Fast Forward Engineering, Vista, California
http://www.geopages.com/SiliconValley/2499


'PICList 'rejected messages' problem'
1996\04\28@064818 by Mauricio.Culibk
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SendTo: RemoveMEpiclistspam_OUTspamKILLspammitvma.mit.edu

Hi!

Exceuse me for bothering, but I just want to check if the problem of
'rejected messages' is gone, because Jory Bell said that I was the
'problem generator', so after few patches & updates to our mailer/mail
servers, I resubscribed....
Please, let me know if the problem persists, or, anyway, what's the
piclist status now.

Thank you for your (download)time,

Regards,

Mauricio CULIBRK

ARNE Computers d.o.o.
Cesta v Gorice 38                                   Phone:   +386 61 1233-171
61111 Ljubljana                                     Fax:     +386 61 1233-488
Slovenia                                            E-Mail:  RemoveMEmauricioTakeThisOuTspamspamarne.si
E U R O P E


'Receipt of 6/6/96 2:01 PM message'
1996\06\06@144711 by bob martin
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Re:Re: Downloading from Microchip's site


'Too many messages? Try the Digest option.'
1996\08\13@074733 by Andy Register
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Dear Pic Programmers,

This post has nothing to do with PIC programming per se, but it
may make your life and your mailer happier.  I hope it is useful.

The list server we are using is very powerful!  Put the following command
on the subject line (for good measure, also put the same command in the
body of the message) and send to the _listserver_ (_not_ the pic list).
You will get a bunch of commands you may use to manage the mail you get
from the list server.  All this is explained in the sign-on message we
all received.  The mail header would look something like:

To: EraseMELISTSERVspamspamspamBeGonemitvma.mit.edu
From: your reply email address
Subject: INFO  REFCARD
Message: INFO  REFCARD

Admittidly the list received is a little cryptic.  The one command I find most
useful is the 'Digest' command.  What this does is aggregate a full
day's list server messages into a single email.  It also puts a summary
at the top of the aggregate message.  So, instead of 20 or so messages, you
only get one.  To do this, all you have to do is send the following message.

To: RemoveMELISTSERVKILLspamspammitvma.mit.edu
From: your reply email address
Subject: SET PICLIST DIG
Message: SET PICLIST DIG

Toodles
Andy Register


'Too many messages? Try the Digest option.'
1996\09\11@073622 by Andy Register
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Dear Pic Programmers,

Maybe this should go in a PIC FAQ?

This post has nothing to do with PIC programming per se, but it
may make your life and your mailer happier.  I hope it is useful.

The list server we are using is very powerful!  Put the following command
on the subject line (for good measure, also put the same command in the
body of the message) and send to the _listserver_ (_not_ the pic list).
You will get a bunch of commands you may use to manage the mail you get
from the list server.  All this is explained in the sign-on message we
all received.  The mail header would look something like:

To: LISTSERVSTOPspamspamspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu
From: your reply email address
Subject: INFO  REFCARD
Message: INFO  REFCARD

Admittidly the list received is a little cryptic.  The one command I find most
useful is the 'Digest' command.  What this does is aggregate a full
day's list server messages into a single email.  It also puts a summary
at the top of the aggregate message.  So, instead of 20 or so messages, you
only get one.  To do this, all you have to do is send the following message.

To: spamBeGoneLISTSERVSTOPspamspamEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu
From: your reply email address
Subject: SET PICLIST DIG
Message: SET PICLIST DIG

Toodles
Andy Register

1996\09\12@214743 by Bob Duke

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Thanks for the tip, Andy.  Just signed up for PIC list and got 50 messages
today!


{Quote hidden}


'Error Message in MPLAB'
1996\10\25@091443 by myke predko
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Hiya,

Last night, I (finally) got in some 17C44s and upgraded the firmware to
1.20.00 on my PICStart Plus.

This got rid of the message saying that there is a higher level of PSP
Firmware available, but did not get rid of the message:

"Open Projects must be rebuilt to properly coordinate device information
with PICSTART Plus."

What exactly does this mean?  I rebuilt ("Build All" under "Projects") the
code and even created a new project after installing the new Firmware, but
there's no difference.

Can anybody help me out here?

Thanx,

myke

Avoiding precedents does not mean nothing should ever be done.  It only
means that nothing should ever be done for the first time - Sir Humphrey
Appleby K.C.B.

'LED mvong message.'
1996\10\28@012257 by Werner Terreblanche

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Andres


>I'm working on a project that's quite long (about 10K lines of code)
>for a moving-message-LED-display controlled by a 16C73 that has a lot
>of features. It's working nicely and it's almost finished.

Hmm.... I found this quite interesting.  I also made a number of
moving message displays a couple of years ago based on the PIC16C57.
(On those days the fancier models like the 16C73 did not exist yet.)

Even though the moving message display worked very well and ran very
smoothly, at the end of that project I was sorry that I didn't rather
use a bigger micro like the 8051 or something that I could program in
a high level language like C.   The PIC16C57 that I used was filled
to the brim with code and there was no more room for future expansion
and that eventually killed the project as far as I was concerned.

But I suppose the 16C73 is a far better choice than the 16C57 and at
least you get some fancy C compilers for the PIC microcontrollers
these days.     Best of luck with your project!

Regards

Werner

--
Werner Terreblanche   Tel +27 21 7102251   Fax +27 21 721278
@spam@wterreb@spam@spamspam_OUTplessey.co.za (work) OR spamBeGonewernerspamKILLspamaztec.co.za  (home)

1996\10\30@012333 by Andres Djordjalian

flavicon
face
Hi Werner!

> Hmm.... I found this quite interesting.  I also made a number of
> moving message displays a couple of years ago based on the PIC16C57.
> (On those days the fancier models like the 16C73 did not exist yet.)
>....................
> But I suppose the 16C73 is a far better choice than the 16C57 and at
> least you get some fancy C compilers for the PIC microcontrollers
> these days.

I also started this project using a 16C57, but it soon proved too small
for what I had in mind. I could make it display text but it seemed
almost impossible to add the other features that where needed. If you were
able to complete a display controlled by a 16C57 I congratulate you!  The
16C73 is much more powerful, and now there is the 17C44 also, although it
could be cheaper!

I still can't say if it would had been better to use another micro. What I
like of PICs is their small package and speed. I needed speed for what I
had in mind, and I wanted to minimize costs and PCB complexity.

And also I guess the 4K-word ROM on the 16C73 is equivalent to almost 10K
bytes on another micro, and more if it's programmed with a HLL, so unless
there is a 16K or 32K ROM microcontroller that is cheap and fast I think
the 16C73 might be a good choice... But thanks for your comment!

>Best of luck with your project!

Thanks! Regards,
                                                       Andres

1996\10\31@040427 by Werner Terreblanche

flavicon
face
Andres Djordjalian <.....aajordjspam_OUTspamALEPH.FI.UBA.AR> wrote:


>I also started this project using a 16C57, but it soon proved too
>small for what I had in mind. I could make it display text but it
>seemed almost impossible to add the other features that where needed.
>If you were able to complete a display controlled by a 16C57 I
>congratulate you!

Thank you.  I won't tell you how long it took me develop that. :(
I also had  to implement 9600 baud  serial communications all with
this one PIC1657.  And this was still in the dark ages before
Internet, so I didn't have any application notes or a Piclist to
consult.  <grin>

>I still can't say if it would had been better to use another micro.
>What I like of PICs is their small package and speed. I needed speed
>for what I had in mind, and I wanted to minimize costs and PCB
>complexity.

Well, you get the 8051 devices also in very high speed models.  I
know a guy here who makes gigantic big graphical LED displays, and he only
uses the fast 8051 devices.   So speed is not really a problem
anymore for these devices, but ROM considerations and development
tools and compilers certainly is.  If you feel that you are more
confident with the PIC microcontrollers then that is certainly the
right way to go.


>And also I guess the 4K-word ROM on the 16C73 is equivalent to almost
>10K bytes on another micro, and more if it's programmed with a HLL, so
>unless there is a 16K or 32K ROM microcontroller that is cheap and
>fast I think the 16C73 might be a good choice... But thanks for your
>comment!

The only problem is that they are all one time programmable.  (Except
for the PIC16C84, but that one is too small for your application.)   I really
like the
Atmel devices, because they are cheap, multi programmable and low on
power consumption.  However, that is just my personal opinion.  I
have gone through this same process once before and if I have to do
it all over again, I would rather use the Atmel 89CXX processors.

--
Werner Terreblanche   Tel +27 21 7102251   Fax +27 21 721278
TakeThisOuTwterreb.....spamTakeThisOuTplessey.co.za (work) OR TakeThisOuTwernerKILLspamspamspamaztec.co.za  (home)


'LED mvong message.'
1996\11\02@101848 by Gerhard Fiedler
flavicon
face
At 02:22 30/10/96 GMT, Andres Djordjalian wrote:
>And also I guess the 4K-word ROM on the 16C73 is equivalent to almost 10K
>bytes on another micro, and more if it's programmed with a HLL, ...

What makes me wonder with such comparisons: 4k 16bit words already _equals_
8k with no added efficiency involved, so the 10k _bytes_ on another micro is
not too far off the 8k _bytes_ which is 4k words... Seems the microchip did
a good marketing trick to introduce 16bit _words_ as the base of their
codes: one of the big arguments is that all instructions are 1 word == 16bit
wide (on the bigger ones) -- but the average instruction in a typical 8031
code is way smaller than 2 bytes, as there usually are few with more than 2
bytes, but some with only 1. They just cannot claim that it is _one_ something.

1996\11\02@161937 by John Payson

picon face
> At 02:22 30/10/96 GMT, Andres Djordjalian wrote:
> >And also I guess the 4K-word ROM on the 16C73 is equivalent to almost 10K
> >bytes on another micro, and more if it's programmed with a HLL, ...
>
> What makes me wonder with such comparisons: 4k 16bit words already _equals_
> 8k with no added efficiency involved, so the 10k _bytes_ on another micro is
> not too far off the 8k _bytes_ which is 4k words...

Most PICs use 14-bit words; 4K words equals 7KBytes, not 8K.

>                                                      Seems the microchip did
> a good marketing trick to introduce 16bit _words_ as the base of their
> codes: one of the big arguments is that all instructions are 1 word == 16bit
> wide (on the bigger ones) -- but the average instruction in a typical 8031
> code is way smaller than 2 bytes, as there usually are few with more than 2
> bytes, but some with only 1. They just cannot claim that it is _one_
something.

Unless the author of the 8x51 code was space-concious, most opcodes used IN
PRACTICE are likely to be two bytes.  Further, let's look at some simple
code samples:

; Goal: add one variable to another (e.g. X=X+Y).  Assume both #'s are 8-bits
; PIC runs 4MHz; 8x51 runs at 12MHz

;PIC: 28 bits, 2us
       movf    Y,w
       addwf   X,f
;8x51 version 1: 24 bits, 3us [assuming X is in R1 and Y is in R2]
       mov     A,R1
       add     A,R2
       mov     R1,a
;8x51 version 2: 48 bits, 3us [assuming X and Y are in memory]
       mov     a,X
       add     a,Y
       mov     X,a

; Goal: as above, but 16-bit numbers.

;PIC: 84 bits, 6us
       movf    YL,w
       addwf   XL,f
       movf    YH,w
       btfsc   C
        incfsz YH,w
        addwf  XH,f
;8x51 version 1: 48 bits, 6us [assuming X is R1:R2 and Y is R3:R4]
       mov     A,R2
       add     A,R4
       mov     R2,A
       mov     A,R1
       addc    A,r3
       mov     R1,A
;8x51 version 2: 96 bits, 6us [assuming X and Y are in memory]
       mov     A,XL
       add     A,YL
       mov     A,XL
       mov     A,XH
       addc    A,YH
       mov     XH,A

;Goal: copy bit B1 to bit B2

;PIC version: 42 bits, 3us
       bcf     B2
       btfsc   B1
        bsf    B2
;8x51 version: 32 bits, 3us
       mov     C,B1
       mov     B2,C

;Goal: test a bit and branch

;PIC version: 28 bits, 2 or 3 us
       btfsc   Bit
        goto   Wherever
;8x51 version: 24 bits, 2us
       jb      Bit,Wherever

; Goal: test a bit and clear another memory location if it's set

;PIC version: 28 bits, 2us
       btfsc   Bit
       clrf    MemLoc
;8x51 version: 48 bits, 2 or 4 us
       jnb     Bit,Nope
       mov     MemLoc,#0
Nope:

;Goal: loop on a variable

;PIC version: 28 bits, 3us
       decfsz  Var,f
        goto   Loop
;8x51 version 1: 16 bits, 2us [loop control in R1]
       djnz    R1,Loop
;8x51 version 2: 24 bits, 2us [loop control in memory]
       djnz    Var,Loop

Most of these code samples represent things the 8x51 does quite well; as a
result, the PIC does not quite win out on a number-of-bits metric in many
cases, but comes very close.  In cases where it's often necessary to do
"simple" things in consequence of bits tests, the PIC may win out because
of it's "btfsx" instructions; in other cases, the 8x51 wins out.  On the
other hand, the PIC has an easy 5x speed boost available whereas the 8x51
generally does not.

1996\11\02@190333 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
   ;8x51 version 1: 48 bits, 6us [assuming X is R1:R2 and Y is R3:R4]
           mov     A,R2
           add     A,R4
           mov     R2,A
           mov     A,R1
           addc    A,r3
           mov     R1,A
   ;8x51 version 2: 96 bits, 6us [assuming X and Y are in memory]
           mov     A,XL
           add     A,YL
           mov     A,XL
           mov     A,XH
           addc    A,YH
           mov     XH,A

Not to detract from your conclusions, but aren't you leaving out "effective
address fetch time" or something?  I have a hard time believing that any
processor can fetch twice as many bytes in its instruction stream and
maintain the same execution time...

BillW

'words vs. bytes (was Re: LED mvong message.)'
1996\11\02@201717 by Eric Smith

flavicon
face
BillW wrote:
> Not to detract from your conclusions, but aren't you leaving out "effective
> address fetch time" or something?  I have a hard time believing that any
> processor can fetch twice as many bytes in its instruction stream and
> maintain the same execution time...

Not sure about the 8051, but that is common on other processors.  On the
6502, many one and two byte instructions have the same execution time
(two cycles).

Eric

'LED mvong message.'
1996\11\02@203553 by fastfwd

face
flavicon
face
William Chops Westfield <.....PICLISTspamRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU> wrote:

> I have a hard time believing that any processor can fetch twice as
> many bytes in its instruction stream and maintain the same
> execution time...

What you're missing, Bill, is that it's very easy to go the OTHER
way... That is, to fetch HALF as many bytes in the same time.

Look at it from that perspective, and remember that the 8051 has an
internal divide-by-12 on its clock, and you'll see that all that's
happening is that the short instructions are executing much slower
than they absolutely have to.

-Andy

Andrew Warren - RemoveMEfastfwdspamspamBeGoneix.netcom.com
Fast Forward Engineering, Vista, California
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2499

1996\11\03@114836 by Gerhard Fiedler

flavicon
face
At 15:09 02/11/96 -0600, John Payson wrote:
>> At 02:22 30/10/96 GMT, Andres Djordjalian wrote:
>> >And also I guess the 4K-word ROM on the 16C73 is equivalent to almost 10K
>> >bytes on another micro, and more if it's programmed with a HLL, ...
>>
>> What makes me wonder with such comparisons: 4k 16bit words already _equals_
>> 8k with no added efficiency involved, so the 10k _bytes_ on another micro is
>> not too far off the 8k _bytes_ which is 4k words...
>
>Unless the author of the 8x51 code was space-concious, most opcodes used IN
>PRACTICE are likely to be two bytes.  Further, let's look at some simple
>code samples:

Thanks for the instructive samples. You're obviously right about the
possible speed boost, you'd have to use Dallas or some of the other newer
40MHz types to speed the 8031 up a bit. But they show also that the bit
count is not too far off, and the differences seem to be well within
differences of implementation (of the same solution by different
programmers...).

1996\11\03@114839 by Gerhard Fiedler

flavicon
face
At 16:02 02/11/96 PST, William Chops Westfield wrote:
>    ;8x51 version 1: 48 bits, 6us [assuming X is R1:R2 and Y is R3:R4]
>      ...
>    ;8x51 version 2: 96 bits, 6us [assuming X and Y are in memory]
>      ...
>
>Not to detract from your conclusions, but aren't you leaving out "effective
>address fetch time" or something?  I have a hard time believing that any
>processor can fetch twice as many bytes in its instruction stream and
>maintain the same execution time...

The examples were for a 8031 running @ 12MHz and a PIC running @ 4MHz. Does
this make your time less hard?

1996\11\03@164342 by John Payson

picon face
> At 16:02 02/11/96 PST, William Chops Westfield wrote:
> >    ;8x51 version 1: 48 bits, 6us [assuming X is R1:R2 and Y is R3:R4]
> >      ...
> >    ;8x51 version 2: 96 bits, 6us [assuming X and Y are in memory]
> >      ...
> >
> >Not to detract from your conclusions, but aren't you leaving out "effective
> >address fetch time" or something?  I have a hard time believing that any
> >processor can fetch twice as many bytes in its instruction stream and
> >maintain the same execution time...

One instruction cycle on the 8x51 is 12 clocks.  During this time, the MPU may
fetch
one or two bytes of code.  One of the reasons code density on the 8x51 is often
fairly
low is that many programmers don't bother to code for registers when
memory-based code

> The examples were for a 8031 running @ 12MHz and a PIC running @ 4MHz. Does
> this make your time less hard?

The most common speeds for an 8x51 are 12.0 and 11.0592MHz, though they are
available
in versions up to 40MHz.  The most common speeds for PICs are 4.0 and 3.579MHz
though
they are available up to 20MHz.  As a result, I thought the comparison
reasonable (I
personally prefer PICs, btw) even though 20MHz PICs are more common than 40MHz
8x51's.

1996\11\03@210816 by Dwayne Reid

flavicon
face
>At 02:22 30/10/96 GMT, Andres Djordjalian wrote:
>>And also I guess the 4K-word ROM on the 16C73 is equivalent to almost 10K
>>bytes on another micro, and more if it's programmed with a HLL, ...
>
>What makes me wonder with such comparisons: 4k 16bit words already _equals_
>8k with no added efficiency involved, so the 10k _bytes_ on another micro is
>not too far off the 8k _bytes_ which is 4k words... Seems the microchip did
>a good marketing trick to introduce 16bit _words_ as the base of their
>codes: one of the big arguments is that all instructions are 1 word == 16bit
>wide (on the bigger ones) -- but the average instruction in a typical 8031
>code is way smaller than 2 bytes, as there usually are few with more than 2
>bytes, but some with only 1. They just cannot claim that it is _one_ something.
>

Actually, the word size on a 16Cxx PIC is 14 bits.  But I think that you
miss the point about the word size.  Lets consider a 68hc11.  There are
three ways to address something, depending upon how far away that something
is from where you are right now.  Short jumps (+- 127 bytes) take a single
code space, longer jumps take two or three code spaces.  Since the PIC uses
a 13 bit address, these jumps usually (PCLATH problems notwithstanding) take
only ONE code space.

I have found that rewriting some of my old 'hc11 stuff into PIC format
really does result in a 2 to 3 times reduction in code size.  Part of that
is experience (I am a better programmer now than I was 5 years ago, part of
that is the PIC instruction set (it is possible to do certain things in a
much more elegant manner), and part is the inherent reduction possible
because of the longer word size.

Dwayne

'words vs. bytes (was Re: LED mvong message.)'
1996\11\05@152505 by Matthew Mucker

flavicon
face
>Not sure about the 8051, but that is common on other processors.  On the
>6502, many one and two byte instructions have the same execution time
>(two cycles).

WOW!!! Someone else remembers the 6502!?  Ah, the days of the VIC20...


 "DOS Computers manufactured by companies such as IBM, Compaq, Tandy, and
millions of others are by far the most popular, with about 70 million
machines in use wordwide. Macintosh fans, on the other hand, may note that
cockroaches are far more numerous than humans, and that numbers alone do
not denote a higher life form."

1996\11\05@205802 by Martin J. Maney

picon face
On Tue, 5 Nov 1996, Matthew Mucker wrote:

> WOW!!! Someone else remembers the 6502!?  Ah, the days of the VIC20...

I can't resist mentioning that I have a 6501 lurking in a dusty drawer.
:-)

1996\11\05@211035 by Eric Smith

flavicon
face
"Martin J. Maney" <spamBeGonemaney@spam@spamspam_OUTMCS.NET> wrote:
> I can't resist mentioning that I have a 6501 lurking in a dusty drawer.

I've got a 6501.  And a 6502 that is early enough that it doesn't have the
ROR instruction, which was added in September of 1975.

But I've rewritten most of the embedded system code I originally wrote for the
6502 and the Mitsubishi 8-bit parts (6502-like) to run on the PIC.

Cheers,
Eric

1996\11\06@112231 by myke predko

flavicon
face
>I've got a 6501.  And a 6502 that is early enough that it doesn't have the
>ROR instruction, which was added in September of 1975.

And I thought I was proud because I have the second 386sx built by Intel in
my drawer!

myke

Avoiding precedents does not mean nothing should ever be done.  It only
means that nothing should ever be done for the first time - Sir Humphrey
Appleby K.C.B.

'Reading MIME messages'
1996\11\06@230155 by Peter J. Crowcroft

picon face
Not wishing to appear ignorant I have been waiting for anyone to ask HOW to
read these messages. No one has so assumed everyone could, except me. So I
emailed three people I know read the list to ask the secret. All 3 said they
delete them & did not in fact know how to do it.

I use Eudora Light. I can read the message if it is file attached. But when
it is within the message itself I do not know how to decode it. Would
someone please explain.

Tks,  Peter

1996\11\07@070440 by Gerhard Fiedler

flavicon
face
At 11:56 07/11/96 -0800, Peter J. Crowcroft wrote:
>Not wishing to appear ignorant I have been waiting for anyone to ask HOW to
>read these messages. No one has so assumed everyone could, except me. So I
>emailed three people I know read the list to ask the secret. All 3 said they
>delete them & did not in fact know how to do it.

_I_ think you can ask things related to the messages, anytime... in fact,
you should. And even responding, _thinking_ you know what you're talking
about, you can look pretty dumb in the light of other responses ;-) Much
more than just asking.

>I use Eudora Light. I can read the message if it is file attached. But when
>it is within the message itself I do not know how to decode it. Would
>someone please explain.

There are a couple of freeware decoders for MIME and UUENCODEd messages
around. A search in any BBS (or in the Internet) should give you a broad
selection. There are a few basic working principles: some simply convert a
certain file (then you'd have to save your message as a file, call the
converter, maybe rename the file,...), some work with the Windows clipboard
(copy the relevant part of the message to it and call the converter which
will ask you for a name/place where to save the file), and so on.

1996\11\07@072137 by tjaart

flavicon
face
I use Netscape's mail. I downloaded the file and Excel read it.
No Problem
--
Friendly Regards

Tjaart van der Walt
______________________________________________________________
|  Another sun-deprived R&D Engineer slaving away in a dungeon |
|WASP International GSM vehicle tracking and datacomm solutions|
|           +27-(0)11-622-8686 | http://wasp.co.za             |
|______________________________________________________________|

1996\11\07@110326 by Les Troyer

flavicon
face
According to Peter J. Crowcroft:
>
> Not wishing to appear ignorant I have been waiting for anyone to ask HOW to
> read these messages. No one has so assumed everyone could, except me. So I
> emailed three people I know read the list to ask the secret. All 3 said they
> delete them & did not in fact know how to do it.
>
> I use Eudora Light. I can read the message if it is file attached. But when
> it is within the message itself I do not know how to decode it. Would
> someone please explain.
>
> Tks,  Peter
>

Peter:

I think you are confusing two different things.  MIME is fairly easily
read/saved.... It is well documented and usually uses base64 encoding to
convert binary data to limited ascii (other encodings (ie UUENCODE) are also
allowed).  I'm guessing you can at least get this far and get the WINMAIL.DAT
or whatever file decoded.

The file that was decoded is a propriarity (god i can't even spell it) format
for MS-MAIL.  So.. the secret to reading the message is to use MS-MAIL.  I
don't think the format of the file is published anywhere.

--
Les Troyer
Sr. Analyst
Siemens Power Corp
2101 Horn Rapids Rd.
Richland, Wa. 99352-0130

Voice    (509) 375-8695
Fax      (509) 375-8940
Operator (509) 375-8100
email TakeThisOuTljtspamspamnfuel.com

Ad Hoc, Ad Loc, Quid Pro Quo; So Little Time SO Much To Know.
  -Jeromy Hillery Dillery Boo, PHD, MS and Q

1996\11\07@120932 by Chuck McManis

flavicon
face
I'm using Microsoft Messaging and I just click on the message and it opens up
in a separate window to be read.
--Chuck

----------
From:   Peter J. Crowcroft[SMTP:diykitEraseMEspamHK.SUPER.NET]
Sent:   Thursday, November 07, 1996 11:56 AM
To:     Multiple recipients of list PICLIST
Subject:        Reading MIME messages

Not wishing to appear ignorant I have been waiting for anyone to ask HOW to
read these messages. No one has so assumed everyone could, except me. So I
emailed three people I know read the list to ask the secret. All 3 said they
delete them & did not in fact know how to do it.

I use Eudora Light. I can read the message if it is file attached. But when
it is within the message itself I do not know how to decode it. Would
someone please explain.

Tks,  Peter

1996\11\07@153525 by Thomas Vegeby

flavicon
face
>I use Eudora Light. I can read the message if it is file attached. But when
>it is within the message itself I do not know how to decode it. Would
>someone please explain.

This is what has happened to me a couple of times:

For some reason the attached file is included as coded text, an example:

MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Description: "Base64 encode of st202a.xls by Wincode v2.6.1"
Message-ID: <3426804073068_st202a.xls>
Content-Type: application…octet-stream; name="st202a.xls"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: Base64
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="st202a.xls"

0M8R4KGxGuEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPgADAP7/CQAGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAAMwAAAAAAAAAA
EAAA/v///wAAAAD+////AAAAADIAAAD/////////////////////////////////////////////
  ...
bQBlAG4AdABTAHUAbQBtAGEAcgB5AEkAbgBmAG8AcgBtAGEAdABpAG8AbgAAAAAAAAAAAAAAOAAC
Af///////////////wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACoAAAAAEAAA
AAAAAA==

/end of example.

This is how to solve it:

1.  Get a suitable decoder.  I use WINCODE.  You may get if from TUCOWS,
   get a suitable mirror site at http://www.tucows.com .
2.  Extract the coded message segment,  either to a separate file (the file
   name does not matter),  or to the clipboard.
3.  Decode with WinCode.  The decoded file will appear in the WinCode
   decode library.


Thomas Vegeby
Polytest AB
Knutbygrand 16            Phone      +46 8 59080876
194 51 Upplands-Vasby     Mobile     +46 10 2275975
Sweden                    e-mail     RemoveMEtvegebyEraseMEspamspam_OUTremotecom.se

1996\11\07@165054 by Reginald Neale

flavicon
face
>I'm using Microsoft Messaging and I just click on the message and it opens up
>in a separate window to be read.
>--Chuck
>
Yes, you are one of the fortunate people who have realized that resistance
to BillGatus of Borg is futile. Those who have been assimilated will have
no problem with the encoded message.




.....................Reg Neale.....................
Complete text of the winning entry in a recent good-government essay contest:
"Good Government.  Gooooood Government.   Sit.    Stay."

'No messages?'
1996\11\19@110810 by Peter Shoebridge

flavicon
face
My mail server when down at the weekend and since then I've stopped getting
messages from this list. I am still subscribed, anyone have any ideas?

Better email direct as I may not see the posts.

Thanks

Peter

1996\11\21@035622 by Don McKenzie

flavicon
face
Peter Shoebridge wrote:
>
> My mail server when down at the weekend and since then I've stopped getting
> messages from this list. I am still subscribed, anyone have any ideas?
>
> Better email direct as I may not see the posts.
>
> Thanks
>
        Peter Shoebridge <@spam@peterRemoveMEspamEraseMEASPENRES.COM>
> Peter

Peter and others. Several people have contacted me regarding the PIClist
problem. I have spoken to Jory Bell about it but no problem seems
apparent.

I just simply re-subscribed and the messages started flowing again. I
figure perhaps 25 to 40% of users aren't getting PICLIST messages at the
moment. Best you check on your friends to make sure they aren't in this
group.

I had the problem for around 48 hours.

Don McKenzie EraseMEdonmckspam@spam@labyrinth.net.au
DonTronics Tullamarine, Australia
http://www.labyrinth.net.au/~donmck

SimmStick(tm) A PIC proto PCB the size of a 30 pin Simm Memory Module.
EASY PIC'n Beginners Guide to using PIC 16/17 MicroChip products.
MEL PicBasic Compiler. Programmers from 15 USD.  Pic-Axe(tm) A New Tool.

1996\11\21@135115 by tom

flavicon
picon face
On 19 Nov 96 at 9:07, Peter Shoebridge wrote:

> My mail server when down at the weekend and since then I've stopped getting
> messages from this list. I am still subscribed, anyone have any ideas?

Either the list has got a block in it somewhere, or everyone is
taking time out to do their Christmas shopping early.  :)

Unless there is an inspiration hiatus?   Temporary, I am sure.

>
> Better email direct as I may not see the posts.

Copied (in case)  :)
--
Tom.
Check out the PIC FAQ at;
http://digiserve.com/takdesign/pic-faq/faqindex.html

   Iza no ho velona eto afaka zato taona, Tsy izaho.

1996\11\21@191617 by Tony Matthews

flavicon
face
Peter Shoebridge wrote:
>
> My mail server when down at the weekend and since then I've stopped getting
> messages from this list. I am still subscribed, anyone have any ideas?
>
> Better email direct as I may not see the posts.
>
> Thanks
>
> Peter
after the messages I downloaded sunday night I recieved no other from
the PIC list though two other subscribers kindly posted me direct with
good advice so I had something to do.At anyrate I resubscribed wednesday
night around ten. Thursday night I recieved 29 messages mostly PIC list
and a notice from the list_server that I was allready subscribed also I
have not recieved a single post from e_list in a couple weeks or more?
I missed it! bye Tony M.

1996\11\22@082712 by Stuart Taylor

flavicon
face
HI

Just a quickie.

I know it is odd that the list disappeared

I sent the command QUERY PICLIST to @spam@LISTSERVspam_OUTspam.....mitvma.mid.edu
and got a reply back in about 5 secs. Now mail is coming in
every 2 minutes.

This is a very quick way of checking the basic list workings
if not the bulk mailer side of it.

Cheers

Stuart Taylor

1996\11\22@140427 by mike

flavicon
picon face
In message  <spamBeGone329523DA.896EraseMEspamlabyrinth.net.au> PICLISTspamBeGonespamMITVMA.MIT.EDU writes:
> Peter and others. Several people have contacted me regarding the PIClist
> problem. I have spoken to Jory Bell about it but no problem seems
> apparent.
>
> I just simply re-subscribed and the messages started flowing again. I
> figure perhaps 25 to 40% of users aren't getting PICLIST messages at the
> moment. Best you check on your friends to make sure they aren't in this
> group.
>
> I had the problem for around 48 hours.
>
Hmm. I didn't re-subscribe and the messages have started to come
in again. I too had the problem for about 48 hours.



Mike Watson

'Getting messages more than once!'
1996\11\27@100033 by Osama ALASSIRY

flavicon
face
Since the 2days that the messages stopped I have been recieving multiple
copies of every message (at first it was 4 copies, now down to 2)

what's happening? am I subscribed twice?
how can I fix it?
can the list maintainer fix it?
is it fixable?
______________________________________________________________
Name         Osama ALASSIRY
Snail Mail   P.O. Box 7900 Doha-Qatar
Web          http://www.alassiry.com
Homepage     http://www.alassiry.com/osama
Email        RemoveMEosama@spam@spamspamBeGoneqatar.net.qa
             .....osama@spam@spamEraseMEalassiry.com

'Multiple Messages'
1996\11\27@180150 by Dave Mullenix

flavicon
face
Like many others, I too am receiving multiple copies of most PIC list
messages.  I was lucky enough to get THREE copies of the Christmas lights
messages.

'Getting messages more than once!'
1996\11\28@025712 by Streicher Louw

flavicon
face
I think the phrase "Multiple recipients of list PICLIST" has taken on a new meaning :)

Streicher Louw.
As long as war is regarded as wicked it will always have its fascinations. When it is looked upon as vulgar, it will cease to be popular. -- Oscar Wilde


----------
From:  Osama ALASSIRY[SMTP:.....osamaRemoveMEspamQATAR.NET.QA]
Sent:  Wednesday, November 27, 1996 4:57 PM
To:  Multiple recipients of list PICLIST
Subject:  Getting messages more than once!

Since the 2days that the messages stopped I have been recieving multiple
copies of every message (at first it was 4 copies, now down to 2)

what's happening? am I subscribed twice?
how can I fix it?
can the list maintainer fix it?
is it fixable?
______________________________________________________________
Name         Osama ALASSIRY
Snail Mail   P.O. Box 7900 Doha-Qatar
Web          http://www.alassiry.com
Homepage     http://www.alassiry.com/osama
Email        .....osamaSTOPspamspam@spam@qatar.net.qa
             osamaEraseMEspam@spam@alassiry.com

'Unrecognized recipient in message'
1996\11\30@053628 by peter

flavicon
face
tsxbbs.smtp.mail.tosser@nashville.com wrote:
>
> You recently sent a message to RemoveMEdennis.berryspamspamBeGoneNashville.Com which could not be
> delivered.  There is no person with this name at The Nashville
> Exchange-http://WWW.NASHVILLE.COM.  Typically, this is the result of a slight
> misspelling or the omission of a period between the first and last names.
> Your message was delivered to the mail clerk, TNE POSTMASTER, since your
> intended recipient was not recognized.

I have sent lots of these messages back to this tosser but
to no effect
Indeed to get their attention last time I sent 2.5meg with it
they must be dead, stupid or dead stupid
please unsubscribe "spamBeGonedennis.berryKILLspamspam@spam@nashville.com" from the piclist
thanks
--
Peter Cousens
email: peterspam_OUTspam@spam@cousens.her.forthnet.gr
snailmail: Peter Cousens, karteros, Heraklion, Crete, 75100, Greece,
phone: + 3081 380534,    +3081 324450   voice/fax

After Bill Gates announced to the world that he was Microsoft,
his wife was asked to comment. She said that as his wife, she
had been the first to notice this problem


'MPSIM message'
1997\01\02@145721 by Bob Blick
flavicon
face
What does the message "Caution - file register read before written" that
MPSIM attaches to certain instructions signify? Is it telling me anything I
should pay attention to, ie "the simulator behavior is different from
silicon at this point" or what? The documentation does not seem to cover
this message.

Thanks, Bob

1997\01\02@233626 by myke predko

flavicon
face
>What does the message "Caution - file register read before written" that
>MPSIM attaches to certain instructions signify? Is it telling me anything I
>should pay attention to, ie "the simulator behavior is different from
>silicon at this point" or what? The documentation does not seem to cover
>this message.

The message is telling you that you are reading a file register before it
has been originally written to and if you are depending on this value, it's
probably in error.

The power up values of file registers are indeterminant (an individual value
*may* seem to be always a certain value, but if you were to record the power
up values everytime you powered up, you'd find that they change).  Actually,
I did this experiment (I can give you the code - just requires a few LEDs
and a switch).

Because of this, it is extremely important that all variables are
initialized at the start of a program; even if it is just to clear them, it
is better than trying to debug what is going on.

I spent six weeks in the Summer of '96 looking for an improperly initialized
variable (many people on the list will probably remember it).
Unfortunately, the variable wasn't hit until about 100,000 cycles (or 100
msec) into the program (which takes an inordinate amount of time for the
simulator to get to) and I was just to lazy to wait for it (it would have
taken about a half hour and I would have had to write a pretty complex
stimulus file for it) - but if I had, I would have found the problem pretty
quickly because of the "Register Read before Written" Message.

myke

"There are only three kinds of economists in the world.  Those who can count
and those who can't." - Eddy George, governor of the Bank of England

1997\01\03@095200 by Bob Fehrenbach

picon face
Bob Blick <spamBeGonebblick@spam@spamTELIS.ORG> wrote:
>What does the message "Caution - file register read before written" that

It means that you are using the contents of a register that may contain
random data because it was never initialized.  Good programming practice
is to initialize the RAM area, generally to 0.


--
Bob Fehrenbach    Wauwatosa, WI     RemoveMEbfehrenbEraseMEspamKILLspamexecpc.com

1997\01\03@160516 by Martin McCormick

flavicon
face
In message <spamBeGoneijRzyYi8aM4f089ynspam_OUTspamRemoveMEexecpc.com>, Bob Fehrenbach writes:
>It means that you are using the contents of a register that may contain
>random data because it was never initialized.  Good programming practice
>is to initialize the RAM area, generally to 0.

       Absolutely true.  This warning is a double caution.  You can get
in trouble by either not initializing it to some known value or by not
knowing that the old value may have some bearing upon what status flags
get set or cleared after one of these instructions is executed so it really
means to _know_ what you are doing unless one wants random weirdness.  I could
do without that most of the time.

Martin McCormick WB5AGZ  Stillwater, OK 36.7N97.4W
OSU Center for Computing and Information Services Data Communications Group

1997\01\04@010234 by Bob Blick

flavicon
face
>>What does the message "Caution - file register read before written" that
>
>It means that you are using the contents of a register that may contain
>random data because it was never initialized.  Good programming practice
>is to initialize the RAM area, generally to 0.

OK, seems reasonable. I get it when reading the ports, and of course since
they are being used as inputs, I'm not going to write to them, but MPSIM
doesn't seem to distinguish between a port and a file register.

-Bob

1997\01\06@195948 by Eduardo J. Martinez Velez

flavicon
face
part 0 1066 bytes

----------
De:             Bob Blick[SMTP:.....bblickspamRemoveMETELIS.ORG]
Enviado:        s‡bado 4 de enero de 1997 2:57
Para:           Multiple recipients of list PICLIST
Asunto:         Re: MPSIM message

>>What does the message "Caution - file register read before written" that
>
>It means that you are using the contents of a register that may contain
>random data because it was never initialized.  Good programming practice
>is to initialize the RAM area, generally to 0.

OK, seems reasonable. I get it when reading the ports, and of course since
they are being used as inputs, I'm not going to write to them, but MPSIM
doesn't seem to distinguish between a port and a file register.

-Bob


----------------------------
Thanks for all - Mil gracias
----------------------------
Eduardo Jorge Mart’nez VŽlez
a   Asesoria
&   &
 s   Sistematizacion
INET: ejmvspam@spam@satlink.com
 EraseME73070.3653RemoveMEspamSTOPspamcompuserve.com
CServe: 73070,3653
2000-Rosario-SF-Argentina
TelFax: (54)(41)254561
Tel: (54)(41)8804
----------------------------


'Moving message display'
1997\02\09@225401 by JeffScholz
flavicon
face
Greetings,
       I am building a moving message display. It is 7 rows x 80 columns.
Multiplexing will be accomplished by loading shift registers with column
data and the powering sequential rows for 1.64mS each. Therefore, each row
will be refreshed once every 11.5mS.
       Is the refresh rate frequent enough to eliminate flicker? Can I
refresh at a slower rate? I sure could use the extra time for other tasks,
but I don't want a flickery display!!

Thanks!                      Jeff

1997\02\09@235624 by optoeng

flavicon
face
JeffScholz wrote:
>
> Greetings,
>         I am building a moving message display. It is 7 rows x 80 columns.
> Multiplexing will be accomplished by loading shift registers with column
> data and the powering sequential rows for 1.64mS each. Therefore, each row
> will be refreshed once every 11.5mS.
>         Is the refresh rate frequent enough to eliminate flicker? Can I
> refresh at a slower rate? I sure could use the extra time for other tasks,
> but I don't want a flickery display!!
>
> Thanks!                      Jeff


Critical flicker fusion frequency varies with the amount of ambient
light.  It's highest outdoors, which is why you sometimes see
fluorescent lights and video monitors flickering from outside looking
into a building.  The range from very dim lighting to outdoors is
roughly 36 Hz to 120 Hertz required to eliminated flicker perception.
--
NOTE: remove asterisks from email address to reply directly

Paul Mathews, consulting engineer
AEngineering Co.

email: RemoveMEoptoengKILLspamspamTakeThisOuTwhidbey.com
non-contact sensing and optoelectronics specialists

1997\02\10@011936 by Don McKenzie

flavicon
face
JeffScholz wrote:
>
> Greetings,
>         I am building a moving message display. It is 7 rows x 80 columns.
> Multiplexing will be accomplished by loading shift registers with column
> data and the powering sequential rows for 1.64mS each. Therefore, each row
> will be refreshed once every 11.5mS.
>         Is the refresh rate frequent enough to eliminate flicker? Can I
> refresh at a slower rate? I sure could use the extra time for other tasks,
> but I don't want a flickery display!!
>
> Thanks!                      Jeff

I built an LED Moving message board around 1989 driven with a Z80 and
used 74LS164s as shift registers. The timing was set to 2ms per row by 7
rows which worked out at 14ms per cycle.

The speed of the Micro has a lot to do with the timing. Several 'sweet
spots' can be found to achieve persistance of vision with LED displays.

I was using a 555 timer driven interrupt to set the row scan update, so
I was able to easily select these 'sweet spots' by varying the interrupt
timing.

You load up your registers, switch the row on, go do some housekeeping
such as getting new data and mapping it to your ram mirror of the
display, then go switch the current row off, load the next, and so on.

Don McKenzie  spamBeGonedonspam@spam@dontronics.com   http://www.dontronics.com

SLI, the serial LCD that auto detects baud rates from 100 to 125K bps.
SimmStick(tm) A PIC proto PCB the size of a 30 pin Simm Memory Module.
Covers all versions of the PIC16cxx family plus the Atmel AT89C2051.

1997\02\10@023340 by Tim Kerby

picon face
Hi
The television uses a refresh of 25 frames per second.  Does your tv flicker?

Tim



At 17:17 10/02/97 -0800, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

------------------------------------------------------------------
If you can read this, it is the end of the message!
My web pages are at http://web.ukonline.co.uk/members/tim.kerby/
My PIC site is at web.ukonline.co.uk/members/tim.kerby/pic/
It needs your projects!
------------------------------------------------------------------

1997\02\10@023755 by Jeff King

flavicon
face
At 07:34 AM 2/10/97 +0000, Tim Kerby wrote:
>Hi
>The television uses a refresh of 25 frames per second.  Does your tv flicker?
>
>Tim

But don't forget its field rate is 50hz (PAL). So its refresh rate is 50 hz not
25 hz.

Regards,

------------------------------------
| Jeff King      Aero Data Systems |
| jeffspamspammich.com  P.O. Box 510895   |
| (810)471-1787  Livonia, MI 48151 |
|F(810)471-0279  United States     |
------------------------------------

1997\02\10@024213 by Mike

flavicon
face
At 07:34 AM 10/02/97 +0000, you wrote:
>Hi
>The television uses a refresh of 25 frames per second.  Does your tv flicker?
>
>Tim

All TV's flicker.

Some people notice this flicker - others do not. Depends on a whole range of
factors. I believe every persons brain has a built in clock rate of around
20 to 40 cycles per second. There is a basic minimum response time which
is considered to be a certain multiple of the human clock rate. Thats one
reason that sprinters (in the olympics) are considered to have a false
start if there response rate is less than 75mS AFTER the gun !

There seems to be some correlation between metabolic rate and a persons
likelihood to notice flicker. My girlfriend was diagnosed with a thyroid
condition that has kept her metabolic rate slow for years - since she
has been on medication she notices flicker on some SVGA monitors where she
would'nt notice it before...

Personally I can't stand anything below about 60Hz on a SVGA but put up with
a TV at 25 since its a smallish screen and the intensity is downand I think
the phosphor persistence is a bit longer ?

Rgds

Mike

1997\02\10@024830 by Mike

flavicon
face
At 02:36 AM 10/02/97 -0500, you wrote:
>At 07:34 AM 2/10/97 +0000, Tim Kerby wrote:
>>Hi
>>The television uses a refresh of 25 frames per second.  Does your tv flicker?
>>
>>Tim
>
>But don't forget its field rate is 50hz (PAL). So its refresh rate is 50 hz not
>25 hz.

Its interlaced though isn't it so a different picture each 25th of a second not
a different picture each 50th of a second - eh ?

So its 25Hz isnt it...

Rgds

Mike

1997\02\10@025249 by Andrew Warren

face
flavicon
face
Tim Kerby <spam_OUTPICLISTspam_OUTspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU> wrote:

> The television uses a refresh of 25 frames per second.  Does your tv
> flicker?

Tim:

As you say, televisions (in countries with 50 Hz systems) refresh
the entire frame 25 times per second.  They do it, however, by
interlacing the odd and even lines (the odd and even "fields") and
refreshing each field FIFTY times per second.  This interlacing
scheme was adopted specifically to combat flicker.

Additionally, TV screens have much higher persistence than LEDs. That
is, once an image is drawn on a TV screen, it takes a while for it to
fade.  LEDs, on the other hand, have essentially zero persistence.

Finally, most people watch TV in fairly dim ambient light.  This
helps to reduce apparent flicker as well.

Even so, however, televisions DO flicker; a regular (60 Hz in the
USA) television looks absolutely AWFUL when it's compared
side-by-side to a frequency-doubled 120-Hz TV with a non-interlaced
display fed from a big RAM.

-Andy

=== Andrew Warren - fastfwdspam_OUTspamix.netcom.com                 ===
=== Fast Forward Engineering - Vista, California          ===
===                                                       ===
=== Custodian of the PICLIST Fund -- For more info, see:  ===
=== http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2499/fund.html ===

1997\02\10@025909 by Jeff King

flavicon
face
At 03:42 PM 2/10/97 +0800, Mike wrote:
>At 02:36 AM 10/02/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>At 07:34 AM 2/10/97 +0000, Tim Kerby wrote:
>>>Hi
>>>The television uses a refresh of 25 frames per second.  Does your tv flicker?
>>>
>>>Tim
>>
>>But don't forget its field rate is 50hz (PAL). So its refresh rate is 50
hz not
{Quote hidden}

Two TV fields make a frame. Not sure on PAL but on NTSC its 262.5 lines per
field (525 lines total). This is interlaced video. The refresh rate and
persistence of the phosphers determine the flicker. Yes, a new image
every 1/25 of a second but the screen is updated (refreshed) every 1/50
of a second.

Regards,

------------------------------------
| Jeff King      Aero Data Systems |
| RemoveMEjeffKILLspamspam@spam@mich.com  P.O. Box 510895   |
| (810)471-1787  Livonia, MI 48151 |
|F(810)471-0279  United States     |
------------------------------------

1997\02\10@040322 by Kalle Pihlajasaari

flavicon
face
Hi Tim,

> The television uses a refresh of 25 frames per second.  Does your tv flicker?

It has Phosphor persistance to add to your eye persistance so not a
fair comparison.

The worst flicker used to be 22 Hz cinema, I seem to recall that
it is higher these days.

> >> data and the powering sequential rows for 1.64mS each. Therefore, each row
> >> will be refreshed once every 11.5mS.
> >
> >used 74LS164s as shift registers. The timing was set to 2ms per row by 7
> >rows which worked out at 14ms per cycle.

Cheers
--
Kalle Pihlajasaari   kallespamBeGonespam.....ip.co.za   http://www.ip.co.za/ip
Interface Products   P O Box 15775, DOORNFONTEIN, 2028, South Africa
+ 27 (11) 402-7750   Fax: 402-7751    http://www.ip.co.za/people/kalle

DonTronics, Silicon Studio and Wirz Electronics uP Product Dealer

1997\02\10@081533 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
>
> Greetings,
>         I am building a moving message display. It is 7 rows x 80 columns.
> Multiplexing will be accomplished by loading shift registers with column
> data and the powering sequential rows for 1.64mS each. Therefore, each row
> will be refreshed once every 11.5mS.

Would you mind telling us how you're going to sink the current for each
row? even at a nominal 20ma per LED you can have a max sink current of
1.6A per row. That's a whole bunch of current!

Oh and the perceived brightness is more a function of peak current through
the LED rather than average brightness. So typically an LED pulsed at
100ma at a low duty cycle will have a higher perceied brightness than a
20ma at a higher duty cycle.

That's why I usually drive columns instead of rows at a much higher frequency.
Using drivers like the Allegro UCN5801 sink driver at a peak 500ma per, each
LED can be pulsed at 70ma each. And with loading taking only 10us or so at
20 Mhz on a pic (Read column, write to latch, shift column driver) it leaves
almost 600 uS between columns to do other stuff. Works great interrupt driven.


>         Is the refresh rate frequent enough to eliminate flicker?

86 Hz? probably not. May work if you can get the LED's bright enough. Do
you have a 5-8A sink for each row available (60-100ma current per LED)?

>Can I
> refresh at a slower rate? I sure could use the extra time for other tasks,
> but I don't want a flickery display!!

This is easily determined by testint. Just wire up one 5x7 display and vary
the refresh rate. It becomes very apparent when flicker occurs.

BTW how did you pick your display numbers above?

Your best bet is to pump up the current and drop the duty cycle, the
perceived brightness will go up and you'll get some of the persistence effect
from the user's eye meaning that you can go longer before flicker is perceived.

BAJ

1997\02\10@102206 by Miller, Steve

flavicon
face
In my experience this these displays, flicker becomes a problem only when
the refresh rate drops down close to 60 HZ.   You are proposing a refresh
rate of 87HZ, so I think you will be fine.  You could drop refresh
interval to 14 ms and still be fine.  However, the faster you refresh the
better.  Slower refresh rates appear jumpy if you blink your eyes
rapidly.  My former boss once built a system that refreshed at 8 mS.
This display was rock solid, and he always berated my stuff in
comparison.  (He could refresh so fast because he did not do special
effects.)
---- Steve
----------
From:  pic microcontroller discussion [SMTP:KILLspamPICLISTspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU]
Sent:  Sunday, February 09, 1997 12:38 AM
To:  PICLIST
Subject:  Moving message display


Greetings,
       I am building a moving message display. It is 7 rows x 80
columns.
Multiplexing will be accomplished by loading shift registers with column
data and the powering sequential rows for 1.64mS each. Therefore, each
row
will be refreshed once every 11.5mS.
       Is the refresh rate frequent enough to eliminate flicker? Can I
refresh at a slower rate? I sure could use the extra time for other
tasks,
but I don't want a flickery display!!

Thanks!                      Jeff

1997\02\10@131320 by Tim Kerby

picon face
Its not the brain that is slow.  It is retinal persistence that causes
images to merge.  I recently made a light listner converting light to
sound.  The ear can hear 50Hz mains hum for example and much above.  I have
a 50Hz monitor and it flickers if I do not directly view it.  Does the
retina respond slower in the center?


Tim

At 15:41 10/02/97 +0800, you wrote:
>At 07:34 AM 10/02/97 +0000, you wrote:
>>Hi
>>The television uses a refresh of 25 frames per second.  Does your tv
flicker?
{Quote hidden}

------------------------------------------------------------------
If you can read this, it is the end of the message!
My web pages are at http://web.ukonline.co.uk/members/tim.kerby/
My PIC site is at web.ukonline.co.uk/members/tim.kerby/pic/
It needs your projects!
------------------------------------------------------------------

1997\02\10@145004 by o*ptoeng

flavicon
face
Tim Kerby wrote:
>
> Its not the brain that is slow.  It is retinal persistence that causes
> images to merge.  I recently made a light listner converting light to
> sound.  The ear can hear 50Hz mains hum for example and much above.  I have
> a 50Hz monitor and it flickers if I do not directly view it.  Does the
> retina respond slower in the center?
>

Yes.  Center (fovea) is mostly cone cells, color vision, high acuity,
lower sensitivity, lower critical flicker fusion freq.
--
NOTE: remove asterisks from email address to reply directly

Paul Mathews, consulting engineer
AEngineering Co.

email: spam_OUToptoengspamKILLspamwhidbey.com
non-contact sensing and optoelectronics specialists

1997\02\10@152422 by Craig Knotts

flavicon
face
Attachment converted: wonderlandfive:ATTACH01.TXT 2 (TEXT/CSOm) (0000B7C3)

1997\02\10@171138 by Martin McCormick

flavicon
face
       If you want a comparison that is pretty standard all over the world,
sound movie film is shown at 24 frames per second, but you actually see
72 images per second as most film projectors have a three-bladed shutter
that makes one revolution per frame.  The one difference you might run in to
would be the special projectors used in T.V. film chains.  They have a
different shutter which helps synchronize the framing speed with video.

Martin McCormick

1997\02\10@175637 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
   Does the retina respond slower in the center?

Yes.  The center of the eye has a high concentration of "cones" (color
receptors), which are relatively slow.  As you get into the peripheral
areas, the concentration of "rods" (B&W receptors) goes up.  These are
faster and more sensitive to absolute light levels.  This is also why you
can see dim stars/commets/etc better when you're not looking directly at
them.

BillW

1997\02\10@193305 by Steve Hardy

flavicon
face
> From: Martin McCormick <RemoveMEmartinRemoveMEspamEraseMEDC.CIS.OKSTATE.EDU>
>
>         If you want a comparison that is pretty standard all over the world,
> sound movie film is shown at 24 frames per second, but you actually see
> 72 images per second as most film projectors have a three-bladed shutter
> that makes one revolution per frame.  The one difference you might run in to
> would be the special projectors used in T.V. film chains.  They have a
> different shutter which helps synchronize the framing speed with video.
>
> Martin McCormick
>

IMAX and OMNIMAX uses a two-bladed shutter giving 48Hz frame rate.
Having been to the OMNIMAX theatre in Portland Oregon I didn't notice
any flicker at 48Hz.  I don't notice the 50Hz flicker of our PAL TVs
unless walking past a TV shop and I catch a glimpse of all those TVs
out of the corner of my eye.

My only criticism of OMNIMAX is that rapid motion of the scene (e.g.
panning) is a bit jerky.  This is especially noticeable because of the
extreme width of the image, and the fact that the 'real' frame rate is
only 24Hz.  Apart from that, it's a wonderful (Aussie) invention.

Getting back to the original query (relating to LED displays), the
refresh should be done row-by-row (i.e. the largest number of LEDs at a
time).  Why?  Well, for a particular brightness of the overall display,
the average current for each LED must be the same.  If row-by-row
MUXing is performed, the peak current per LED is less (assuming
rows < cols).  Generally, the drivers will need to be designed for
peak current.  If you work out the economics, it is cheaper to design
row MUXing.

This is borne out for actual displays.  I have never seen a 'ticker
tape' display with column MUXing.  In fact, they all refresh by
row, starting with the bottom row and moving up.  This gives a natural
rightward slope to characters that are moving rightward across the
display (which is the usual case).

The best economy of drivers is obtained for square displays.  Of
course you could arrange for your long thin display to be electrically
'square' by partitioning it into the appropriate sized segments
however moving displays may look a bit fragmented.

Regards,
SJH
Canberra, Australia

1997\02\10@194342 by Bob Blick

flavicon
face
At 03:08 PM 2/10/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Attachment Converted: "C:\Internet\EudoraPro\Telis\Attach\ATTACH012.TXT"
>

Hi Craig,

Looks like your mail is still getting a massage before exiting. At least it
gets out, though!

-Bob

1997\02\10@201053 by Clyde Smith-Stubbs

flavicon
face
Thus spake Steve Hardy (KILLspamhardyspamspamBeGoneSWENG.STORTEK.COM):

> time).  Why?  Well, for a particular brightness of the overall display,
> the average current for each LED must be the same.  If row-by-row

Not true. The perceived brightness is related more to peak brightness
than average - i.e. for the same average current the LED will appear
brighter with a low duty cycle (and therefore high peak current)
than with a high duty cycle. Driver considerations are another matter,
but for maximum brightness you should aim to drive the LED at its
rated peak current, and adjust the duty cycle so as not to exceed the
rated average current.

--
Clyde Smith-Stubbs    | HI-TECH Software,       | Voice: +61 7 3354 2411
clydespamspamhtsoft.com      | P.O. Box 103, Alderley, | Fax:   +61 7 3354 2422
http://www.htsoft.com | QLD, 4051, AUSTRALIA.   |
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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microcontroller! Point your WWW browser at http://www.htsoft.com/

1997\02\10@215256 by Mike

flavicon
face
At 06:13 PM 10/02/97 +0000, you wrote:
>Its not the brain that is slow.  It is retinal persistence that causes
>images to merge.  I recently made a light listner converting light to
>sound.  The ear can hear 50Hz mains hum for example and much above.  I have
>a 50Hz monitor and it flickers if I do not directly view it.  Does the
>retina respond slower in the center?

You missed my point, I think, if there is less retinal persistence then
you are more likely to notice flicker. The brain response is there as well
and is not independent - for example in the human eye there is less
structure for detecting moving edges than say in the frogs eye. The whole
issue is actually quite complex - and yes the retinas response is highly
non-linear - there are structures that respond better to moving edges
outside the center of vision.

Rgds

Mike

1997\02\10@234101 by tjaart

flavicon
face
Tim Kerby wrote:
>
> Its not the brain that is slow.  It is retinal persistence that causes
> images to merge.  I recently made a light listner converting light to
> sound.  The ear can hear 50Hz mains hum for example and much above.  I have
> a 50Hz monitor and it flickers if I do not directly view it.  Does the
> retina respond slower in the center?
>

Yep. You see black&white better around the centre, and these cells
respond faster than the colour ones in the centre. Try looking *just*
past an object at night, and you'll notice how you actually see better.

--
Friendly Regards

Tjaart van der Walt
RemoveMEtjaartspamBeGonespamRemoveMEwasp.co.za
_____________________________________________________________
| Another sun-deprived R&D Engineer slaving away in a dungeon |
|             ASP International  http://wasp.co.za            |
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1997\02\11@031128 by John Dammeyer

flavicon
face
At 11:39 AM 11/02/1997 EST, you wrote:
>IMAX and OMNIMAX uses a two-bladed shutter giving 48Hz frame rate.
>Having been to the OMNIMAX theatre in Portland Oregon I didn't notice
>any flicker at 48Hz.  I don't notice the 50Hz flicker of our PAL TVs
>unless walking past a TV shop and I catch a glimpse of all those TVs
>out of the corner of my eye.
>
>My only criticism of OMNIMAX is that rapid motion of the scene (e.g.
>panning) is a bit jerky.  This is especially noticeable because of the
>extreme width of the image, and the fact that the 'real' frame rate is
>only 24Hz.  Apart from that, it's a wonderful (Aussie) invention.

I beg to differ.  Canadians invented and pateneted the IMAX system.

Pioneers are the ones, face down in the mud,
with arrows in their backs.
Automation Artisans Inc.      Ph. 1-250-544-4950
PO Box 20002                  Fax 1-250-544-4954
Sidney, BC CANADA V8L 5C9

1997\02\11@090600 by JeffScholz

flavicon
face
At 01:14 PM 2/10/97 +0000, Byron A Jeff wrote:
{Quote hidden}

tasks, but I don't want a flickery display!!
{Quote hidden}

I agree. A bunch of current. I plan on using TIP120 darlingtons. A robust power
supply may be one of my smaller challenges as this is only my second pic
project.
The display numbers were picked based on a compromise between wanting a larger
display and the available ram in a 16c63.

Thanks to all who have responded with comments!  Jeff

1997\02\11@133246 by Leon Heller

flavicon
picon face
In message <KILLspam3.0.16.19970210180913.3f576cd6spamBeGonespampop-3.ukonline.co.uk>, Tim
Kerby <@spam@tim.kerbySTOPspamspam@spam@UKONLINE.CO.UK> writes
>Its not the brain that is slow.  It is retinal persistence that causes
>images to merge.  I recently made a light listner converting light to
>sound.  The ear can hear 50Hz mains hum for example and much above.  I have
>a 50Hz monitor and it flickers if I do not directly view it.  Does the
>retina respond slower in the center?

The peripheral visual system is *much* more sensitive to movement
(including flicker) than at the centre. This is very noticeable with
flickering fluorescent lamps. Presumably we have evolved this way to
detect predators creeping up on us from behind.

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
leonspamBeGonespamspamBeGonelfheller.demon.co.uk
Tel: +44 (0) 118 947 1424 (home)
    +44 (0) 1344 385556 (work)

'IMAX inventors? (was Re: Moving message display)'
1997\02\11@190532 by Steve Hardy

flavicon
face
> From: John Dammeyer <spamBeGonejohndspamISLANDNET.COM>
>
> At 11:39 AM 11/02/1997 EST, you wrote:
> [cut]
> >only 24Hz.  Apart from that, it's a wonderful (Aussie) invention.
>
> I beg to differ.  Canadians invented and pateneted [sic] the IMAX system.
>

Well, IMAX was an international effort.  An Aussie came up with the
'rolling loop' film transport mechanism (which is what I had in mind,
since it is the key to the whole concept - such large film would not
stand up to the old jerky geneva mechanism).  But, as you say, the
enthusiastic Canadians developed this into a system (along with German
optics, and sundry parts from all over the globe).  Only Hollywood
didn't have anything to do with it!

Regards,
SJH
Canberra, Australia

1997\02\11@215553 by Martin McCormick

flavicon
face
       How does the Imax film transport work?  I used to repair lots of
16-MM projectors in the eighties and I am fimilar with the geneva mechanism
you describe, at least the way it is on sixteen-s.

       Unless I am totally mixed up, the Imax film is 35-MM film but the
frames are shot length-wise so the whole system would look like a conventional
projector lying on its side.  I also seem to recall that the sound is digital
and recorded between the sproket holes.

Martin McCormick

'Moving message display -Reply'
1997\02\11@223306 by ang (Chee Foon Tiang)

flavicon
face
I always thought that it is the colour sensing cells in your retina that is
making those 25 frames/sec forms a continuous moving picutre.

The pigments reacts according to the intensity of the light, i.e. it takes
time to react, thereby giving the image persistence.

When light intensity falls below a certain threshold, these pigments fails
to react altogether. The other light sensitive cells becomes dominant,
giving you black and white vision at night.

On the other hand, the flickers you see on computer monitors are due to
interlacing, where image is displayed on alternate lines at a lower
refresh rate (say 35Hz) and filled in on the second pass, giving you a
virtually doubled refresh rate (70Hz). However, these "filling in" of the
picture is not perfect and is noticeable as flickers.

You can minimized this flickers by adjusting the size of the displayed
area, i.e. the smaller the less flicker, confirming that the flickers
are due to errors in the "filling in" process.

Rgds,

Peter Tiang
Design Engineer
Design & Applications Laboratory
Hitachi Semiconductor (M) Sdn Bhd

1997\02\11@224750 by Clyde Smith-Stubbs

flavicon
face
Thus spake Peter Tiang (Chee Foon Tiang) (spam_OUTTIANGCFOONSTOPspamspamHITACHI.COM.MY):

> On the other hand, the flickers you see on computer monitors are due to
> interlacing, where image is displayed on alternate lines at a lower
> refresh rate (say 35Hz) and filled in on the second pass, giving you a
> virtually doubled refresh rate (70Hz). However, these "filling in" of the

No-one I know uses interlaced displays on computer monitors - the interlace
flicker is highly objectional. I run my monitor at 75Hz non-interlaced - I
find anything less than 70Hz unacceptable (large white areas are the most
noticeable, especially just outside the central field of vision.

Television can get away with interlacing because the video bandwidth is
insufficient to give 625 (or 525) lines of vertical resolution, so
there is not usually a dramatic difference between adjacent lines. But
you can still sometimes see interlace flicker.

Clyde

--
Clyde Smith-Stubbs    | HI-TECH Software,       | Voice: +61 7 3354 2411
RemoveMEclydespamspamhtsoft.com      | P.O. Box 103, Alderley, | Fax:   +61 7 3354 2422
http://www.htsoft.com | QLD, 4051, AUSTRALIA.   |
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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microcontroller! Point your WWW browser at http://www.htsoft.com/

1997\02\11@232119 by John Payson

picon face
>         I am building a moving message display. It is 7 rows x 80 columns.
> Multiplexing will be accomplished by loading shift registers with column
> data and the powering sequential rows for 1.64mS each. Therefore, each row
> will be refreshed once every 11.5mS.
>         Is the refresh rate frequent enough to eliminate flicker? Can I
> refresh at a slower rate? I sure could use the extra time for other tasks,
> but I don't want a flickery display!!

* EVERYTHING YOU EVER WANTED TO KNOW ABOUT TV'S, LED'S, REFRESH RATES,
 AND FLICKER (but were afraid to ask) *

[plus lots of things you didn't]


When trying to design a display to show moving images, there are two important
and related properties to be considered:

-1- Refresh rate
-2- Update rate

The first factor, refresh rate, indicates how many times per second each part
of the display will "flash".  For computer screens, this is typically 50-90Hz.
For televion sets, it is typically 50-60Hz (for objects with low detail) or
25-30Hz (for objects with high detail).  For movie screens it is typically
48Hz (North America) or 50HZ (Europe).  For LED message displays, it is typi-
cally around 60Hz, though some LED displays have a driver for each LED and thus
illuminate continuously.

Some people might wonder how a television set can have a different refresh rate
for high- and low- detail objects.  While this may seem impossible, it is a
natural result of a process called interlacing.  The electron beam in the set
sweeps top-to-bottom 50 or 60 times a second, but each time it only scans the
even or odd lines.  An object which is large enough to appear on several con-
secutive scan lines will thus be drawn on every scan, while a small object
that only appears on one scan line will only be drawn on every other scan.
Note that the worst flicker occurs on objects which are drawn equally brightly
on two consecutive scan lines without appearing on the line above; such obj-
ects will appear to "bounce" between the two locations 25 or 30 times per sec-
ond; flicker may be mitigated, however, by ensuring that the overall bright-
ness and apparent center of any object is the same in both fields.  For exam-
ple, if there is a bright line on row 26 and dim lines on rows 25 and 27, the
overal effect will be a non-flickering, somewhat blurry line on row 26.

The second major factor to consider for moving displays is update rate.  This
is the number of times per second that the information on the display is act-
ually changed.  For movies, this is typically 24 or 25Hz; for televion it may
either be equal to the "field rate" (50 or 60Hz) or the "frame rate" (25 or
30Hz).  Typically, moving subjects will appear best when the update rate is
once per field, but updating the image every field may cause fine details in
the picture to flicker (if a small object's position happens to be on an even
scan line when the display is scanning the odd ones, and vice versa, that ob-
ject will not appear) and a VCR which attempts a "freeze frame" will capture
the even scan lines of one image and the odd scan lines of another (producing
a double-exposure effect).

While having an update rate slower than the refresh rate may produce jerky
motion, it may also have another nasty effect: objects which are moving
around the screen may appear as double- or triple- images (if the update
rate is 1/2 or 1/3 the refresh rate).  This effect may be demonstrated if
you write a program to scroll a text screen at precisely half the monitor's
refresh rate; if you watch the text as it scrolls up, you will see "phantom"
lines of text between the real ones.

To understand where the phantom images are "coming from", you need to remember
that a person's eye will move as he/she watches a moving object.  If a 7-row
LED display is scanned at a rate of 100Hz (700 lines/second) and moves left by
one dot every other frame, then the user's eye will travel left at a rate of
50 dot/second (i.e. 1/2 dot per frame, or 1/14 dot per scan line).  Thus, the
second time a frame is drawn it will appear 1/2 dot to the right of the first
time (since the eye--and the retinal image of the first dot--will have shifted
left 1/2 dot) and so the user will see two dots even though in reality there
is only one.  Note as well that even as the display moves from one scan line to
the next the user's eye will move left, so the display may appear slightly
skewed.

The double-vision effect is the primary reason why most LED displays are scan-
ned and scrolled at the same (approximately 60Hz) rate.  By using the same
rates for both, each dot will be made to appear precisely once on the display
(if you watch, e.g. the top of an "E" it will appear as though all five dots
are all moving, even though most of them are just staying put from one frame
to the next).  In addition, by scanning the display bottom-to-top, the skew of
the text during a normal right-left scroll will be about a 14% lean to the
right, which will appear fairly attractive.

The primary difficulty in producing a nice scrolling LED display is making the
thing big enough to allow the unit to be scanned fast enough to avoid flicker
while maintaining a 1:1 scan/update ratio to avoid "double-vision".

BTW, if you are designing a display primarily for use in scrolling mode, you
may visually "compress" the display horizontally at some expense in refresh
rate.  If your display is wired for "row-scanning", your choices are limitted
to 1:1, 2:1, 3:1, etc. with anything beyond 2:1 being rather dicey (and even
2:1 being iffy).  If your display is wired for horizontal scanning (e.g. you
use 5x7 display modules turned on their sides) then you may use a wide var-
iety of compression ratios (this works best if the row modulus is prime).  I
have, for example, constructed a small "nametag" with a 28x5 display which
can scroll messages quite nicely (it gets about 8-10 characters legibly on
the screen at once, with an apparent screen width of 48 pixels).  Really
cool trick...

Anyway, stay tuned for when I write the "everything ELSE you wanted to know..."
article.

'IMAX inventors? (was Re: Moving message display)'
1997\02\12@025739 by John Dammeyer

flavicon
face
At 08:54 PM 11/02/1997 -0600, you wrote:
>        How does the Imax film transport work?  I used to repair lots of
>16-MM projectors in the eighties and I am fimilar with the geneva mechanism
>you describe, at least the way it is on sixteen-s.
>
>        Unless I am totally mixed up, the Imax film is 35-MM film but the
>frames are shot length-wise so the whole system would look like a conventional
>projector lying on its side.  I also seem to recall that the sound is digital
>and recorded between the sproket holes.
>
70 mm and yes,  lying on its side.  But as for number of frames per second I
think it's still quite slow.  I noticed a lot of the flicker as the camera
panned when I was able to visit the IMAX in Edmonton.  Now I live on
Vancouver Island so no IMAX.  sob!

And... by the way,  I can be humble (and wrong).  Yes the rolling loop
principal was invented by an Australian but developed in 1967 by Canadians.
<sigh>  Nothing else to do down under I guess.  <grin>

Check it out here:

http://www.moviegoers.com/IMAX/facts.html

John
Pioneers are the ones, face down in the mud,
with arrows in their backs.
Automation Artisans Inc.      Ph. 1-250-544-4950
PO Box 20002                  Fax 1-250-544-4954
Sidney, BC CANADA V8L 5C9

'Moving message.'
1997\02\12@090409 by JeffScholz

flavicon
face
       Thanks to all for the great suggestions on my moving
message posting.
                       Jeff

'Message not deliverable - Sorry.....'
1997\02\12@171202 by Brian Boles

flavicon
face
    Folks, I think that the Microchip mail system is bouncing this message
    back to anyone that posts to the piclist.

    I assume someone here subscribed with a bogus msg. i.d.

    I notified our MIS folks.

    Rgds, Brian.

'Moving message display'
1997\02\14@132741 by rpragana

flavicon
face
Hi Jeff and Tim,

 There is another matter worth talking about: the screen persistence.
LEDs don't have the same glow as screen phosphors, so the "turn-off"
faster. That explain why we should use a faster frame-ratio with LED
displays.

regards,
Rildo Pragana <TakeThisOuTrpraganaspamspamRemoveMEacm.org>  from the Brazilian's Venice (Recife, PE)


On Mon, 10 Feb 1997, Jeff King wrote:

> At 07:34 AM 2/10/97 +0000, Tim Kerby wrote:
> >Hi
> >The television uses a refresh of 25 frames per second.  Does your tv flicker?
> >
> >Tim
>
> But don't forget its field rate is 50hz (PAL). So its refresh rate is 50 hz
not
> 25 hz.
>

1997\02\23@050925 by Zemin Liu

flavicon
face
It is frequent enough.

Slowest rate > 7 X 50 = 350/sec.

Zemin Liu


{Quote hidden}

'Message not deliverable'
1997\02\25@160529 by David Novak

flavicon
face
This code:

long i, j;
i =j*5;

causes these errors:

ERROR   C:\MPLAB\MPLABC14.LIB 20:16:ILLEGAL OR UNDEFINED ARGUMENT _t 1
ERROR   C:\MPLAB\MPLABC14.LIB 21:7:EXPECTED  ;,
ERROR   C:\MPLAB\MPLABC14.LIB 21:7:EXPECTED  , got s
ERROR   C:\MPLAB\MPLABC14.LIB 24:5:ILLEGAL OR UNDEFINED ARGUMENT R1 .. 6
ERROR   C:\MPLAB\MPLABC14.LIB 25:5:ILLEGAL OR UNDEFINED ARGUMENT R1 .. 6
ERROR   C:\MPLAB\MPLABC14.LIB 26:5:ILLEGAL OR UNDEFINED ARGUMENT R1 .. 6
ERROR   C:\MPLAB\MPLABC14.LIB 27:12:ILLEGAL OR UNDEFINED ARGUMENT R1 .. 6
ERROR   C:\MPLAB\MPLABC14.LIB 35:14:ILLEGAL OR UNDEFINED ARGUMENT _r 2
ERROR   C:\MPLAB\MPLABC14.LIB 36:14:ILLEGAL OR UNDEFINED ARGUMENT _q 2
ERROR   C:\MPLAB\MPLABC14.LIB 37:14:ILLEGAL OR UNDEFINED ARGUMENT _s 2


I find this very disturbing since a file named ctutor.c which shipped with
the compiler contains this code:

#include <16c54.h>
#include <math.h>

unsigned int  Num1=2, Num2=3;           // Declare two eight bit numbers.
unsigned long Num3;                     // Declare one long for the result.
unsigned int  Num3High @ &Num3+1;       // Create an address for the top
byte.

void main() {
  while(1) {
     Num3 = Num1 * Num2;               // Multiply the two bytes into a
long.
     }
  }


Thanks,
David Novak
Hopkins Mfg.
KILLspamnovakspamspamspam_OUTvalu-line.net

----------
{Quote hidden}


'Why do I get: 'Message not deliverable'?'
1997\03\02@162300 by Dennis Frost
flavicon
face
I now know my messages are getting to the list but I keep getting the
message back 'Message not deliverable'.

Does anyone know why.
How do I solve the problem?

Thanks
       Dennis

1997\03\02@171531 by Mike

flavicon
face
At 11:20 PM 2/03/97 +0200, you wrote:
>I now know my messages are getting to the list but I keep getting the
>message back 'Message not deliverable'.
>
>Does anyone know why.

sOME MAILS OUT OF THE 1235 OR SO - CAN'T GET to DESTINATION...

>How do I solve the problem?

By ignoring it - a common method arrived at by politicians ;)

>
>Thanks

This one was free ;)

Rgds

Mike

Some say there is no magic but, all things begin with thought then it becomes
academic, then some poor slob works out a practical way to implement all that
theory, this is called Engineering - for most people another form of magic.
                                                                      Massen

1997\03\03@045531 by pxico

flavicon
face
Dennis Frost wrote:
>
> I now know my messages are getting to the list but I keep getting the
> message back 'Message not deliverable'.

I have the same problem, and i don't now to solve this.

Best Regards
Paulo Figueiredo

-----------------------------+-----------------------------------
Paulo Figueiredo             |  Idite-Minho
email: spam_OUTpxicoRemoveMEspamEraseMEidite-minho.pt  |  Centro de Automagco e Electrsnica
tel: +351-53-619470          |  Av. Dr. Francisco Pires Gongalves
fax: +351-53-612957          |  4700 - Braga (Portugal)
_________________________________________________________________

1997\03\03@065521 by Hamilton Feltman

flavicon
face
At 11:20 PM 3/2/97 +0200, you wrote:
>I now know my messages are getting to the list but I keep getting the
>message back 'Message not deliverable'.
>
>Does anyone know why.

Hello,

If you look at the header, it is usually some individual who have lost
there email account and did not unsubscribe from piclist first. So the
piclist can't deliver to the ISP, and the ISP sends the 'Message not
deliverable' back to you. Good thing it doesn't send it back to the list!
The Funny thing is, it is usually an individual from Microchip.


>How do I solve the problem?

Well, You could contact the ISP for that person, and have them send the
unsubscribe command with their old email address, or cantact the list and
have them taken off. Or if it really bothers you and the last two things
don't work, you could forge an email to the list unsubscribing them. :)
If it's from Microchip, you could ask them to make a choice on an
Administrator!

All in all, it's not the list's fault so the best thing to do is probably
just to ignore it.

Regards,
-Hamilton

>
>Thanks
>        Dennis
>
>


Hamilton Feltman
TakeThisOuThamiltonRemoveMEspam@spam@budhi.com
Programmer and Sound Engineer
|_     _||_ .    _  _  _ _
|_)(_)(_|| )| . (_ (_)( | )
http://www.budhi.com

1997\03\03@070351 by Wolfram Liebchen

flavicon
face
At 09:55 03.03.97 +0100, you wrote:
>Dennis Frost wrote:
>>
>> I now know my messages are getting to the list but I keep getting the
>> message back 'Message not deliverable'.
>
>I have the same problem, and i don't now to solve this.
>
>Best Regards
>Paulo Figueiredo
>
>-----------------------------+-----------------------------------
>Paulo Figueiredo             |  Idite-Minho
>email: EraseMEpxicoRemoveMEspamidite-minho.pt  |  Centro de Automagco e Electrsnica
>tel: +351-53-619470          |  Av. Dr. Francisco Pires Gongalves
>fax: +351-53-612957          |  4700 - Braga (Portugal)
>_________________________________________________________________
>

Everyone who posts a message gets this 'Message not deliverable' reply.

The user "spamHub.Admin.....spamspamccmail.microchip.com (Administrator)" has once
subscribed to the PICLIST and must have died in the meantime.
Or at least doesn't want to accept no more email.
He/She should unsubscribe the list.
Perhaps our list-keeper Jory could do the job for them.

regards,

Wolfram


+-----------------------------------------------------+
| Wolfram Liebchen                                    |
| Forschungsinstitut fŸr Optik, TŸbingen, Deutschland |
| liebchenspam_OUTspam@spam@ffo.fgan.de                         |
+-----------------------------------------------------+

1997\03\03@103044 by Martin McCormick

flavicon
face
       First off, you can't do anything about that, yourself.
It is not your problem.

       I have been in touch with a person at Microchip.com who is working
on the problem.  What is happening is that somebody's mailbox at Microchip
has become inoperative for some reason and is now bouncing any incoming
mail from anybody.  Unfortunately, this account is one of the addresses that
receives mail from the piclist.  Every time somebody posts a message, a copy
goes to that dud account and the CC-Mail program at Microchip, after not
being able to deliver the message, politely scans its header for the line
beginning with  From:  After finding that, it sends the bounce to the address
in that line which is the person who sent the message and that is why you
are getting this one.  I will get one of my very own to keep and enjoy
forever a few minutes after I send this one so they are pretty easy to come
by.

       Right now, just ignore them.  The problem is not yours nor is it the
piclist's.  It is just a little bit of erata from the CC-Mail agent at
Microchip.  They will fix it as soon as they figure out what is wrong.

Martin McCormick WB5AGZ  Stillwater, OK 36.7N97.4W
OSU Center for Computing and Information Services Data Communications Group
In message <.....199703022120.XAA29864spamspam.....phantom.pix.za>, Dennis Frost writes:
>I now know my messages are getting to the list but I keep getting the
>message back 'Message not deliverable'.
>
>Does anyone know why.
>How do I solve the problem?
>
>Thanks
>        Dennis

'Subject: Message not deliverable'
1997\03\08@211131 by Michael N. Steen

flavicon
face
Can anyone explain why I keep getting my postings back from
Hub.AdminKILLspamspamEraseMEccmail.microchip.com (Administrator) with 'Subject: Message not
deliverable' when I send it to 'EraseMEpiclist@spam@spam@spam@mitvma.mit.edu'?  The postings seems
to end on the PICLIST anyway.

Regards
Michael

'[Fwd: Message not deliverable]'
1997\03\09@014540 by mail12706

flavicon
face
Received: from prometheus.microchip.com by alterdial.UU.NET with SMTP
       (peer crosschecked as: PROMETHEUS.MICROCHIP.COM [198.175.253.66])
       id QQcgbu25559; Sun, 9 Mar 1997 00:39:46 -0500 (EST)
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<@spam@mail12706spamspamKILLspamPOP.NET>; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 22:37:57 -0700
Received: from ccMail by chccm2.microchip.com
 (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 00000D1E; Sat, 8 Mar 97 22:39:45
-0700
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 22:37:39 -0700
Message-Id: <spamBeGone00000D1E.1332RemoveMEspamEraseMEccmail.microchip.com>
From: RemoveMEHub.AdminKILLspamspamRemoveMEccmail.microchip.com (Administrator)
Subject: Message not deliverable
To: "TakeThisOuTmail12706spampop.net" <spamBeGonemail12706KILLspamspamTakeThisOuTPOP.NET>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Description: cc:Mail note part

Meyer's Patent really has nothing to do with the gas, since it is not
Brown's Gas.  Try Brown's patents.  In addition, the method of
accelerating Brown's Gas output is outlined in the Puharich patent NOT
the Meyer patent, nor any of the Meyer patents. Actually, Meyer
highlights the wrong principles, sorry.

1997\03\09@213009 by Stuart Allman

flavicon
face
> I would like to find a 10cm x 10cm (or about that size) backlit touch
> screen display.  I was think of something like the Sony PDA uses (only
> backlit) or something like the Kenwood high end remote control uses.  I
> would like to control the display using a PIC, so if anyone has code for
> this I would appreciate a code donation.
>
> A list of manufacturers or dealers for this product would be much
> appreciated.  I've already looked in the usual sources (Digikey, Mouser,
> Newark).
>
> Thanks,
Stuart Allman
EraseMEstudio.....spamKILLspamhalcyon.com

1997\03\16@220018 by Mark Brimblecombe

flavicon
face
At 05:31 PM 3/16/97 -0700, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

'Test message, please ignore it'
1997\03\17@094847 by Philippe TECHER

flavicon
face
Test message, please ignore it.

'WWW Piclist site - messages list problem'
1997\03\29@022656 by Chaipi Wijnbergen

flavicon
picon face
Hi,

On the WWW Piclist site, Sorting of messages by threads is funny.

I responded to the original anouncment for this site with the message
regarding the TABs. it is listed as a new item, then other peaple
responded to my message and their messages went under the original
posting.

Chaipi

---- original message -----

Hi,

The WWW Piclist site looks nice, as a concept, but, need some work. Some
of the messages on this list includs schematics and indented text. take a
look at http://www.428main.com/piclist/0020.html  When I read it on the
list it was alot easier to read.

Chaipi

                              \\\|///
                            \\  ~ ~  //
                             (  @ @  )
----------------------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo--------------------------------------
!                                                                             !
! Chaipi Wijnbergen                                                           !
! Electronics/Computer Eng. M.Sc.  Tel    : +972-8-9343079                    !
! Optical Imaging Laboratory       Fax    : +972-8-9344129                    !
! Brain Research Center            Email  : spamchaipispamtohu0.weizmann.ac.il       !
! Weizmann Institute of Science    URL    : http://www.weizmann.ac.il/~chaipi !
! Rehovot 76100 ISRAEL             IPhone : chaipi                            !
!                                                                             !
------------------------------------Oooo.--------------------------------------
                         .oooO     (   )
                         (   )      ) /
                          \ (      (_/
                           \_)


On Thu, 27 Mar 1997, Alan Nickerson wrote:

{Quote hidden}

1997\03\29@023526 by Andrew Warren

face
flavicon
face
Chaipi Wijnbergen <PICLISTSTOPspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU> wrote:

> On the WWW Piclist site, Sorting of messages by threads is funny.
>
> I responded to the original anouncment for this site with the
> message regarding the TABs. it is listed as a new item, then other
> peaple responded to my message and their messages went under the
> original posting.

Chaipi:

I'd guess that your particular e-mail client doesn't generate an
"In-Reply-To:" header.  Without that header, the Hypermail
thread-sorter probably can't tell whether your message is really in
reply to another.

-Andy

=== Andrew Warren - fastfwdSTOPspamspamKILLspamix.netcom.com
=== Fast Forward Engineering - Vista, California
===
=== Custodian of the PICLIST Fund -- For more info, see:
=== www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2499/fund.html

1997\03\29@063933 by Alan Nickerson

flavicon
face
Andrew Warren wrote:

 Chaipi Wijnbergen <@spam@PICLIST.....spamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU> wrote:

 > On the WWW Piclist site, Sorting of messages by threads is funny.
 >
 > I responded to the original anouncment for this site with the
 > message regarding the TABs. it is listed as a new item, then other

 > peaple responded to my message and their messages went under the
 > original posting.

 Chaipi:

 I'd guess that your particular e-mail client doesn't generate an
 "In-Reply-To:" header.  Without that header, the Hypermail
 thread-sorter probably can't tell whether your message is really in
 reply to another.

 -Andy

 === Andrew Warren - spamfastfwd.....spam.....ix.netcom.com
 === Fast Forward Engineering - Vista, California
 ===
 === Custodian of the PICLIST Fund -- For more info, see:
 === http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2499/fund.html

Thanks Andy,
I would not have known that, but after looking into it, your right. :)
I am investigating a way to archive the list by month or somthing and
make it searchable.

Thanks for all the feedback from everyone.

Alan Nickerson


'[Fwd: Message not deliverable]'
1997\04\01@022351 by e
flavicon
face
part 0 2895 bytes
--
     _______________________________________________________
    |                                      _____________    |
    | Dipl.-Ing. Stefan M. Ranguelov      /____________/|   |
    |                                     |||||||||||||     |
    | tel.:    +49 (30) 20 181 251                          |
    | priv.:   +49 (30) 513 66 23                           |
    | s-mail:  D-10319 Berlin, Mellenseestr. 39/10          |
    | ----------------------------------------------------  |
    | e-mail:  ranguelo.....spaminformatik.hu-berlin.de             |
   /) WWW:     http://www.informatik.hu-berlin.de/~ranguelo (\
  / ) PGP key: on request or from WWW-page                  ( \
_( (|_______________________________________________________|) )  />
(((\ \)  /,)                                            / )  / //))/
(\\\\ \_/ /                                             \ \_/ /////
\       /                                               \       /
 \    _/

Subject: Message not deliverable
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 03:44:24 -0700
From: KILLspamHub.Adminspam_OUTspamccmail.microchip.com (Administrator)
To: Stefan Ranguelov <spam_OUTranguelospamTakeThisOuTinformatik.hu-berlin.de>

Antonio Almeida wrote:
>
>         Are there any SPI RAMs width some Kbytes ? If not, is any
> "friendly" way to use normal RAMs width the PIC (i mean, using not to much
> pins) ?
>

I red an article about DALLAS DS 1380/1381. It have 2k x 8bit.
It have two 8 bit Ports and 2 control lines. Over the first port
the PIC can supply Adress/Data. In a 'transparent' mode the 8
lines of the PIC can be switched through to the second port an
can be used as normal port pins. So you effective need two
pins on the PIC for the control signals.

I don't have any price information on this chip.

St.

--
      __________________________________________________________
     |                                        _____________     |
     |  Dipl.-Ing. Stefan M. Ranguelov       /____________/|    |
     |                                       |||||||||||||      |
     |  tel.:     +49 (30) 20 181 251                           |
     |  priv.:    +49 (30) 513 66 23                            |
     |  s-mail:   D-10319 Berlin, Mellenseestr. 39/10           |
     |  ------------------------------------------------------  |
     |  e-mail:   .....ranguelo.....spamRemoveMEinformatik.hu-berlin.de              |
    /)  WWW:      http://www.informatik.hu-berlin.de/~ranguelo  (\
   / )  PGP key:  on request or from WWW-page                   ( \
 _( (|__________________________________________________________|) )
/>
(((\ \)  /,)                                               / )  / //))/
(\\\\ \_/ /                                                \ \_/ /////
 \       /                                                  \       /
  \    _/                                                    \_    /

1997\04\01@070930 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
> Antonio Almeida wrote:
> >
> >         Are there any SPI RAMs width some Kbytes ? If not, is any
> > "friendly" way to use normal RAMs width the PIC (i mean, using not to much
> > pins) ?
> >
>
> I red an article about DALLAS DS 1380/1381. It have 2k x 8bit.
> It have two 8 bit Ports and 2 control lines. Over the first port
> the PIC can supply Adress/Data. In a 'transparent' mode the 8
> lines of the PIC can be switched through to the second port an
> can be used as normal port pins. So you effective need two
> pins on the PIC for the control signals.

A very accurate description. A couple of more observations:

1) It takes three data moves to transfer data to/from the RAM
2) The 1380/81 IO pins doesn't have the same load capacity as the PICs
3) the 81 is battery backed internally. The 1380 has pins for adding a
backup battery.
4) Data sheets are available from the Dallas Semi website.

>
> I don't have any price information on this chip.

You can buy in ones/twos directly from DallasSemi. Last I checked the
1380 was in the $9 ballpark while the 1381 was $11 or so.

BAJ

1997\04\04@191055 by Robert Zeff

flavicon
face
Oops, I meant the 16c74a..

-----Original Message-----
From:   Administrator [SMTP:spam_OUTHub.AdminTakeThisOuTspamEraseMEccmail.microchip.com]
Sent:   Friday, April 04, 1997 4:02 PM
To:     Robert Zeff
Subject:        Message not deliverable

Can someone tell me what type of "weak pullups" are
are in the 17c74a?  Would it be resistive or a current
source?

Thanks,


                     \\\|///
                   \\  ~ ~  //
                    (  @ @  )
    --------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo---------------
    |                                         |
    |               Robert Zeff               |
    |            Nikola Engineering           |
    |               209-599-6176              |
    |            EraseMErzeffspamBeGonespamKILLspamnikola.com             |
    |   Free Spice for Windows NT / Win95:    |
    |        WWW:  http://Nikola.com          |
    |                                         |
    ----------------------Oooo.---------------
                .oooO     (   )
                (   )      ) /
                 \ (      (_/
                  \_)

1997\04\07@034503 by Wolfram Liebchen

flavicon
face
At 16:10 04.04.97 -0800, you wrote:
>Oops, I meant the 16c74a..
>
>Can someone tell me what type of "weak pullups" are
>are in the 17c74a?  Would it be resistive or a current
>source?
>

The weak pullups of PICs are current sources with some hundreds
micro amps.

-- Wolfram



+-----------------------------------------------------+
| Wolfram Liebchen                                    |
| Forschungsinstitut fŸr Optik, TŸbingen, Deutschland |
| RemoveMEliebchenspamBeGonespamspamffo.fgan.de                         |
+-----------------------------------------------------+


'No more ghost messages - thank you'
1997\05\06@011104 by tjaart
flavicon
face
Thank you to the folks who cleared up the problem with the
undeliverable messages from Microchip. I think Brian and Jory
sorted it out - thanks again guys.

--
Friendly Regards

Tjaart van der Walt
@spam@tjaartspamspamwasp.co.za
_____________________________________________________________
| Another sun-deprived R&D Engineer slaving away in a dungeon |
|             WASP International  http://wasp.co.za           |
|             GSM and GPS value-added applications            |
|  Voice : +27-(0)11-622-8686   |   Fax : +27-(0)11-622-8973  |
|_____________________________________________________________|

'Mail your Message to Millions'
1997\05\27@000328 by us

flavicon
face
<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
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And, customers were going to beat a path to your door.

If you believed that -
BOY, have I got some beach front property in Montana for you!

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YOU'D better be PROACTIVE!

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</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>


'Previous messages.'
1997\07\12@194926 by Fabian Pablo Rossi
flavicon
face
part 0 243 bytes
HTML>
 Hello:
 
Somebody know, where can I get the list of previous messages sent to this list. ?
 Thanks
 
Fabian 

1997\07\12@205023 by Andrew Warren

face
flavicon
face
Fabian Pablo Rossi <TakeThisOuTPICLISTKILLspamspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU> wrote:

> Somebody know, where can I get the list of previous messages sent to
> this list. ?

   Fabian:

   A constantly-updated archive of the last two months' messages is
   at:

       http://www.428main.com/piclist/

   -Andy

=== Andrew Warren - .....fastfwdRemoveMEspamix.netcom.com
=== Fast Forward Engineering, Vista, California
=== http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2499

1997\07\14@105142 by mbonner

flavicon
face
Fabian Pablo Rossi wrote:
>
>  Hello:
>
> Somebody know, where can I get the list of previous messages sent to
> this list. ?
>  Thanks
>
> Fabian
       http://www.428main.com/piclist/

'Message not deliverable'
1997\07\22@104724 by myke predko

flavicon
face
The last two notes (and probably this one), I've just sent to the PICLIST is
coming back with a "Message not deliverable" from KILLspamAdministratorspamTakeThisOuTMicrochip.COM.

Is anybody at Microchip looking at this?

myke

"If at first you don't succeed, then maybe sky diving isn't the sport for
you" - Steve Smith

1997\07\22@173814 by Steve Smith

picon face
Myke

I had a couple of bounced mails same message !!!

Maybe Mircochip have a "Particularly Insensitive Computer"

1997\07\22@181632 by Mike

flavicon
face
At 05:37 PM 7/22/97 -0400, you wrote:

>Maybe Mircochip have a "Particularly Insensitive Computer"

Oh - good one LOL :)

Or a   "Precipitatingly Indolent Calculator"

1997\07\23@033316 by Andrew Farrar

flavicon
face
> The last two notes (and probably this one), I've just sent to the PICLIST is
> coming back with a "Message not deliverable" from TakeThisOuTAdministratorspamspam_OUTMicrochip.COM.
>
> Is anybody at Microchip looking at this?
>
> myke
>
> "If at first you don't succeed, then maybe sky diving isn't the sport for
> you" - Steve Smith
>
I am glad to see this message sent one 8 oclock this morning, uk time
and got same reply, hope that this one gets through.

PS is there a way to have the message you send, sent back as a
confirmation of what was sent ?

Andy Farrar

1997\07\23@042741 by Mike Smith

flavicon
face
---Original Message-----
From: Andrew Farrar <RemoveMEasfspamspamSTOPspamEE.PORT.AC.UK>
To: .....PICLISTEraseMEspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU <spamBeGonePICLISTspamRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Wednesday, 23 July 1997 17:04
Subject: Re: Message not deliverable



>> The last two notes (and probably this one), I've just sent to the PICLIST
is
>> coming back with a "Message not deliverable" from
.....AdministratorEraseMEspamMicrochip.COM.
{Quote hidden}

I'm getting some very strange bounces from piclist at the moment.

>
>PS is there a way to have the message you send, sent back as a
>confirmation of what was sent ?

I haven't tried it, but if you've got a unix account, you could subscribe as
an alias instead of your real email - then send stuff to piclist from your
'real' email.

MikeS
<spammikesmith_ozspam_OUTspam@spam@relaymail.net>

1997\07\23@043757 by blunn

flavicon
face
Bob Lunn
07/23/97 06:40 PM


>> is there a way to have the message you send
>> sent back as a confirmation of what was sent ?
>
> I haven't tried it, but if you've got a unix account,
> you could subscribe as an alias instead of your real
> email - then send stuff to piclist from your 'real'
> email.

    Guys, read the message you got from the list server
    when you first joined.

    If you send to the list server the message

         SET PICLIST ACK

    then the list server will send you an explicit
    acknowledgement of each message that it
    receives from you.

    If you send to the list server the message

         SET PICLIST REPRO

    then the list server will send you all messages
    that it receives from you.

    Conversely, if you use 'NOACK' or 'NOREPRO'
    then you turn off that function.

___Bob

1997\07\23@160531 by Steve Smith

picon face
Please Mircochip fix your server its bouncing loads of stuff...

The path seems to be me to piclist to mircochip then back to me

I didnt send it to Mircochip Who Did ???

I leave this subject with another ........
"Posthumous Irrational Comment"

1997\07\23@164701 by Eric van Es

flavicon
face
Steve Smith wrote:

> Myke
>
> I had a couple of bounced mails same message !!!
>
> Maybe Mircochip have a "Particularly Insensitive Computer"

Try this:

I'm getting it from this mailing list!
Does some actually KNOW why this happens? I'm using Netscape
Communicator on Win95.

--
eric van es
spamvanes@spam@spamSTOPspamilink.nis.za
cape town, south-africa
Looking for TEMPORARY/HOLIDAY ACCOMMODATION? http://www.nis.za/~vanes/

1997\07\23@181818 by Matt Bonner

flavicon
face
Steve Smith wrote:
>
> Please Mircochip fix your server its bouncing loads of stuff...
>
> The path seems to be me to piclist to mircochip then back to me
>
> I didnt send it to Mircochip Who Did ???
>
> I leave this subject with another ........
> "Posthumous Irrational Comment"

To date, this has been a...
Pretty Interesting Conversation

1997\07\24@042016 by Tim Forcer

flavicon
face
When this started happening earlier this year, Microchip eventually fixed
it after about ten days (but without ever posting what had gone wrong, or
an apology, if I recall correctly).

If it happens to me, I respond politely to the mythical "Administrator" who
originated the bounce, asking what's going on, with a copy to
spamBeGonepostmasterspamBeGonespam@spam@microchip.com .  That causes a "user unknown" return because
"RemoveMEadministratorRemoveMEspamRemoveMEmicrochip.com" doesn't exist to receive mail (only to bounce
it?), so I then forward this message with all its headers to
postmasterKILLspamspamspammicrochip.com .  (Who doesn't respond or bounce.)

Let's see if it happens this time!


Tim Forcer               spam_OUTtmf@spam@spamecs.soton.ac.uk
Department of Electronics & Computer Science
The University of Southampton, UK

The University is not responsible for my opinions

1997\07\24@042640 by Mike Smith

flavicon
face
---Original Message-----
From: Eric van Es <TakeThisOuTvanesspam_OUTspamILINK.NIS.ZA>
To: KILLspamPICLIST.....spamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU <TakeThisOuTPICLISTEraseMEspamRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Thursday, 24 July 1997 06:40
Subject: Re: Message not deliverable



{Quote hidden}

I'm getting it from a particularly buggy incarnation of Internet Explorer 4
b2.  - I'd stop using it, but its features outweigh the bugs :)
(one of which seems to involve getting the odd dupe - I suspect it's not
telling the ISP's unix host to delete all the messages...)

MikeS
<spam_OUTmikesmith_ozRemoveMEspam.....relaymail.net>

1997\07\24@100027 by lrich

flavicon
face
Tim, when this happened before, the person in charge of Microchip's
firewall/mail server said it happens when one of their employees
moved/quit/transfered and didn't update/cancel their PICLIST
subscription.


Tim Forcer wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1997\07\24@155957 by Eric van Es

flavicon
face
Mike Smith wrote:

{Quote hidden}

 Fhew! I nearly thought that MS was one point up! <G>
My Netscape has some funny quirks too. Like: Don't store more than 999
messages in a folder else it hangs itself (but not my PC).

--
eric van es
Mailto:vanesTakeThisOuTspamKILLspamilink.nis.za  WWW: http://www.nis.za/~vanes/
Cape Town, South-Africa
Looking for TEMPORARY/HOLIDAY ACCOMMODATION?
http://www.nis.za/~vanes/accom.htm

1997\07\24@231826 by Mike Smith

flavicon
face
---Original Message-----
From: Eric van Es <RemoveMEvanesTakeThisOuTspamILINK.NIS.ZA>
To: @spam@PICLISTSTOPspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU <TakeThisOuTPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Friday, 25 July 1997 05:32
Subject: Re: Message not deliverable



{Quote hidden}

Well, it probably is!
Serves us right for using betas...

>My Netscape has some funny quirks too. Like: Don't store more than 999
>messages in a folder else it hangs itself (but not my PC).
>

My PicList folder has some 3518 messages in it - I think I'll archive some,
as switching to this folder is getting slow!


MikeS
<mikesmith_oz.....spam@spam@relaymail.net>

1997\07\25@001115 by Todd Peterson

picon face
At 12:40 PM 7/25/97 +0930, you wrote:

>My PicList folder has some 3518 messages in it - I think I'll archive some,
>as switching to this folder is getting slow!

I suspect quite a few of us are getting a lot of messages accumulated.
What's the final word on availability of an archived version of the mail on
the list?  Is there one and I just don't know about it?  Someone mentioned
that they were going to be doing it back in January, but I followed that
page for a while and it was never updated.  Anyone else?

-Todd Peterson

E-Lab Digital Engineering, Inc.
 "Embedded Control & Integrated Circuit Solutions"

EDE300 IC -  Stamp I/O Expander & PC Interface IC
EDE700 IC -  Serial to LCD Interface IC
EDE1200 IC - Stepper Motor Controller
EDE1400 IC - Serial to Parallel-Printer IC

http://www.netins.net/showcase/elab

'Message not deliverable (Dupes)'
1997\07\25@162100 by paulb

flavicon
face
Mike Smith wrote:

> (one of which seems to involve getting the odd dupe - I suspect it's
> not telling the ISP's unix host to delete all the messages...)

 You think YOU've got all the problems?  I've been getting dupes quite
routinely, albeit intermittently.  Variously have used Netscape 2,
Pegasus and Netscape 3, all under WIN95.  Of course I discussed it with
the ISP shopfront and got the predictable "Do you know there is an
option you have to set ..." followed by "No-one else has reported it"
(Which makes me wonder whether No-one Else actually receives daily
E-mail, let alone in the quantity of these discussion lists) and the
grudging suggestion that I COULD report it to the Guy Who Runs The
System (if I can locate him - I suppose I might have to E-mail Sysop).

One of these days I will put in the effort and time to see when he's
in his office and make the connection (i.e., have him understand I'm
talking about technical stuff such as the workings of his server) and
see if there is an answer.

 Otherwise, if it doesn't happen TOO often, I will do what we do with
all equipment, software etc., and suffer its idiosyncracies.

 Oh, and I was getting the "non-delivery" messages myself some weeks
back.

 Cheers,
       Paul B.

1997\07\27@142014 by Eric van Es

flavicon
face
Mike Smith wrote:

>  ---Original Message-----
> From: Eric van Es <spamBeGonevanesspamspam_OUTILINK.NIS.ZA>
> To: EraseMEPICLIST.....spamMITVMA.MIT.EDU <spamPICLISTKILLspamspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
> Date: Friday, 25 July 1997 05:32
> Subject: Re: Message not deliverable
>
> >Mike Smith wrote:
> >
>
> My PicList folder has some 3518 messages in it - I think I'll archive
> some,
> as switching to this folder is getting slow!
>
> MikeS
> <mikesmith_ozspamspamTakeThisOuTrelaymail.net>

 Well Mike you beat me there! I've got about 1200 - censored. I just
erase questions when they've been answered with the original quoted. I
now have two folders PicList 1 & 2. Makes it quicker.

--
eric van es
Mailto:RemoveMEvanesRemoveMEspamilink.nis.za  WWW: http://www.nis.za/~vanes/
Cape Town, South-Africa
Looking for TEMPORARY/HOLIDAY ACCOMMODATION?
http://www.nis.za/~vanes/accom.htm


'another test message'
1997\08\01@044651 by Eric Smith
flavicon
face
jory bell <TakeThisOuTjory@spam@spam@spam@MIT.EDU> wrote:
> to see if the bounce from microchip is fixed.

If anyone from Microchip is listening, how about talking your MIS department
into configuring your mail gateway software so that bounce messages actually
convey *useful* information, like precisely what email address caused the
bounce?

Most of the email systems in the world seem to be capable of doing this.

This would save Jory a fair bit of time and hassle, and avoid annoying your
customers when they post to the list.

Cheers,
Eric

'Fixed - "Message not deliverable" to Microchip'
1997\08\11@222706 by Brian Boles

picon face
    Jory and the PICLIST,

    We think that we at Microchip have our "Undeliverable Message" problem
    fixed.

    A undeliverable message will still be replied to by
    TakeThisOuTAdministratorspamspamccmail.microchip.com
    however, the offending delivery address should be in the message
    headers for easy viewing.

    Again, many apologies from us for cluttering e-space.

    Rgds, Brian.

'Off topic -- dup messages'
1997\08\15@005839 by blunn

flavicon
face
Bob Lunn
08/15/97 02:27 PM


Sorry if there have been some duplicate messages sent to the list.
Problems with the Notes server.  :(

___Bob

'Off Topic - test message'
1997\08\25@193634 by Darrel Johansen

picon face
    Kindly disregard this message.  Testing Microchip connection.


'[OT} test message'
1997\09\08@163612 by Guy Farebrother
flavicon
face
This is a test message (message one)

1997\09\08@163618 by Guy Farebrother

flavicon
face
This is a test message (message 2)

'[OT] Test message... please ignore'
1997\09\16@135758 by eric.schlaepfer

flavicon
face
Just trying to figure out a duplicate posts problem...


'[ot] Repeat Messages...'
1997\10\06@004048 by Shane Nelson
flavicon
face
Subject: [OT] A new way to make PCB's

On Tue, 30 Sep 1997, Martin R. Green wrote:

> After all our discussions recently about plotting directly on a PCB blank,
> the November 1997 issue of Electronics Now has details of a new method for
...



6 day's after I originally recieved this message, I once again
find it in my inbox, and marked as unread.  I don't think it is a
case of the message being sent twice, but only delivered twice.
The date on this message, and I assume the first copy I recieved,
was Sept 30.  I think it's possible that high email traffic from
the piclist could be causing errors, and leaving sent mail in the
queue to be sent again.

Maybe we've outgrown our listserv.  Could someone check into
this?

.scn


'Binary Attachments to PICLIST Messages (was: "Re: '
1997\11\16@223549 by Andrew Warren
face
flavicon
face
Robert Nansel <KILLspamPICLISTKILLspamspamspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU> wrote:

> To anyone who was inconvenienced by my posting the GIFs of the
> ultrasonic schematics: my apologies. I posted them because of the
> large number of requests I received from other members of the list.

   Keep in mind, Robert, that there are over 1200 PICLIST
   subscribers.  Even if you received a HUNDRED requests, that still
   means that over 90% of the list membership DIDN'T ask for your
   files.

> Perhaps a more constructive way to respond to this issue would be to
> define what is "too large" a file to attach (or if one should attach
> files at all).

   One should NEVER attach files to PICLIST messages... People who
   receive the "digest" form of the list can't decode your
   attachments without going to a whole lot of trouble, and many of
   the others can't decode attachments even if they receive PICLIST
   messages one at a time.

   Also, many PICLIST members pay for their internet access by the
   byte... When you send them 81K of data that they don't want,
   you're costing them money.

   And... The PICLIST is archived on the web.  If your attached
   files aren't filtered out by the archiving software, they take
   up valuable space there.

   Finally, it's inconsiderate to force the listserver to mail out
   94 megabytes of your data (81K of images * 1200 subscribers),
   especially since the recipients are overwhelmingly NOT
   interested in it...

   The best way to distribute binary files is to put them up on a
   web page or ftp site somewhere, then just post a short message
   to the list which describes the files and their location.

   -Andy

=== Andrew Warren - spamBeGonefastfwdKILLspamspamix.netcom.com
=== Fast Forward Engineering - Vista, California
=== http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2499

1997\11\17@105346 by Tom Rogers

flavicon
face
On the other hand, Andy has some valid points:

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Warren <fastfwd@spam@spamKILLspamIX.NETCOM.COM>

>    Keep in mind, Robert, that there are over 1200 PICLIST
>   subscribers.  Even if you received a HUNDRED requests, that still
>   means that over 90% of the list membership DIDN'T ask for your
>   files.
******
Not really an appropriate number analysis here, Andy. I only heard 1 big
complaint out
of 1100 lurkers trying to suck up information. 90% did not vote against
receiving the
attachments; they didn't express their opinion, and as such can't be counted
in the against
or even uninterested column.

******
>    One should NEVER attach files to PICLIST messages... People who
>   receive the "digest" form of the list can't decode your
>   attachments without going to a whole lot of trouble, and many of
>   the others can't decode attachments even if they receive PICLIST
>   messages one at a time.
******
Hmm. This really seems like a format or systems problem. How many out of the
1200
get this through the digest? Does it really screw the digest up, or is it
just an inconvenience
to the digest users?

******
>    Also, many PICLIST members pay for their internet access by the
>   byte... When you send them 81K of data that they don't want,
>   you're costing them money.
******
Who still pays by the byte? I did an informal survey the last time this came
up, and I
got bupkiss for an answer. I asked my kid to check around at school, and he
came up empty,
too.

I pay for storage above a certain reasonable amount. If I get my mail every
two months or so
I never exceed it.

******
>    And... The PICLIST is archived on the web.  If your attached
>   files aren't filtered out by the archiving software, they take
>   up valuable space there.
******
Yeah, they should probably be filtered out. How to do that is the real
question.

******
>   Finally, it's inconsiderate to force the listserver to mail out
>   94 megabytes of your data (81K of images * 1200 subscribers),
>   especially since the recipients are overwhelmingly NOT
>   interested in it...
******
Bummer. This is a real issue, I guess, and reflects the state of Internet
technology
vis-a-vis the state of the encapsulating technology: we can communicate in
pretty
pictures, which just isn't done very efficiently yet, and wasn't really
planned for by
the original designers.

So how much of the listserver is actually eaten up by this activity, and how
much of
that time would have been used in some other way? Or was it just idle cycles
that
got used? And, if we start to use idle bandwidth for this stuff, should we
review the
infrastructure for possible future impact?

Maybe we need a policy discussion here.

******
>    The best way to distribute binary files is to put them up on a
>   web page or ftp site somewhere, then just post a short message
>   to the list which describes the files and their location.
******
That's one way that works for users with a web site, but then it puts the
contributor
in a support position. So if we solicit the documents, even in the most
casual way,
there's a lot more responsibility associated with responding.

Emailing privately to those that request it has its own drawbacks, too.
Isn't this what a
listserver is designed to do? Maybe the problem is that the listserver
technology isn't
up to the complexity of the distribution task, which should be no surprise
to anyone.

Food for thought, anyway.

--Tom Rogers

1997\11\17@111443 by Alberto Smulders

flavicon
Hmmm.... I've seen so many irrelevant topics on this list (among some very
interesting topics), like the stupid (sorry) discussion between USA -
Canada for about a month, I'm glad to see some really interesting stuff
like the binary attachments.... And they weren't that big I think anyone
can complain about them.... Not even the size of all the (stupid) mails
mentioned above + all the shit (sorry again) spam in one month together,
so.....
I'd like to see more practical schematics on the list..... and less bla
bla....

Hmmm.... a very humble opinion.......

Alberto Smulders
InSAD - Encarnacion, Paraguay
EraseMEinsadRemoveMEspam@spam@itacom.com.py

1997\11\17@113313 by David Gould

flavicon
face
> ******
> >   And... The PICLIST is archived on the web.  If your attached
> >   files aren't filtered out by the archiving software, they take
> >   up valuable space there.
> ******

Hmmm, current disk price is $0.05 per meg and falling rapidly.

81 K of attachments is taking up "valuable space" worth $$0.00396 (US). Thats
right, 4 tenths of a cent. Significant? You decide.


Also, I was far more offended getting three message (two from the same guy)
on a supposed technical discussion list calling another list member "moron",
"stupid", and the content "crap". Grow up people. Or take a Valium, or maybe
40 Valium and a liter of Vodka ...

-dg


David Gould           RemoveMEdgspamspamEraseMEillustra.com            510.628.3783 or 510.305.9468
Informix Software                      300 Lakeside Drive   Oakland, CA 94612
You will cooperate with Microsoft, for the good of Microsoft and
for your own survival.

1997\11\17@131230 by John Payson

picon face
> Hmmm, current disk price is $0.05 per meg and falling rapidly.
>
> 81 K of attachments is taking up "valuable space" worth $$0.00396 (US). Thats
> right, 4 tenths of a cent. Significant? You decide.

With a 14.4K modem, 71K of data will take over two minutes to transfer.
Not a huge amount, but enough to be irksome; over long distance, that could
easily cost $0.10 or more (e.g. calling from Monroe, WI to the nearest ISP
in Madison, WI).  Nothing to break the bank, but irksome nonetheless.

For text-based lists, I generally avoid binaries if they're over 1K or so;
other people have their 'mental limit' at about 60K/file.  Unless the PicList
supports options to allow subscribers to automatically reject binaries from
postings, I think the smaller limit (perhaps stretching it to 2-4K) is better.

Private e-mail, of course, is a whole different ballgame; I've sent and
received multi-meg files via e-mail but only when requested.

1997\11\17@134411 by mike

flavicon
picon face
In message  <01bcf36b$3f97e260$64592581@bullgoose> STOPspamPICLIST.....spamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
writes:
> On the other hand, Andy has some valid points:
>
> {Original Message removed}

1997\11\17@134416 by mike

flavicon
picon face
In message  <spamBeGone199711171604.NAA02536RemoveMEspamRemoveMEplaton.itacom.com.py> @spam@PICLISTspamBeGonespamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
writes:
> Hmmm.... I've seen so many irrelevant topics on this list (among some very
> interesting topics), like the stupid (sorry) discussion between USA -
> Canada for about a month, I'm glad to see some really interesting stuff
> like the binary attachments.... And they weren't that big I think anyone
> can complain about them.... Not even the size of all the (stupid) mails
> mentioned above + all the shit (sorry again) spam in one month together,
> so.....

I think that the [OT] protocol has a lot to answer for. This list
is degenerating into a general electronics discussion forum rather
than being a specialised PIC list.

I know there are issues that are indirectly related to PICs, but
sometimes this is taken too far. There are other more appropriate
places to ask many of the off-topic questions.

Regards,

Mike Watson

1997\11\17@143244 by David Gould

flavicon
face
> > Hmmm, current disk price is $0.05 per meg and falling rapidly.
> >
> > 81 K of attachments is taking up "valuable space" worth $$0.00396 (US).
Thats
> > right, 4 tenths of a cent. Significant? You decide.
>
> With a 14.4K modem, 71K of data will take over two minutes to transfer.

10 bits per byte, 14400 bits per second = 1440 bytes per second, 71K = 72704
bytes, 72704 / 1440 ... takes 50.5 seconds. Over two minutes?

> Not a huge amount, but enough to be irksome; over long distance, that could

Agreed, but not grounds for calling someone "moron". Suppose it had been a
meg, what would they do then, hunt the poster down and kill him?

> For text-based lists, I generally avoid binaries if they're over 1K or so;
> other people have their 'mental limit' at about 60K/file.  Unless the PicList
> supports options to allow subscribers to automatically reject binaries from
> postings, I think the smaller limit (perhaps stretching it to 2-4K) is better.

Always good etiquette. I am not advocating posting binaries, just for a
certain amount of restraint and civility when faced with a minor inconvenience.
-dg

David Gould            spam_OUTdgspamspamillustra.com           510.628.3783 or 510.305.9468
Informix Software  (No, really)         300 Lakeside Drive  Oakland, CA 94612
"Bother" said Pooh as he slapped a fresh clip into his Uzi.

1997\11\17@152114 by Peer Ouwehand

flavicon
face
At 10:12 97/11/17 -0500, you (Tom Rogers <spamrogerstspamspamspamIBM.NET>) wrote:
>******
>>    Also, many PICLIST members pay for their internet access by the
> >   byte... When you send them 81K of data that they don't want,
> >   you're costing them money.
>******
>Who still pays by the byte? I did an informal survey the last time this came
>up, and I
>got bupkiss for an answer. I asked my kid to check around at school, and he
>came up empty,
>too.
>
>I pay for storage above a certain reasonable amount. If I get my mail every
>two months or so
>I never exceed it.

Not all of us live in the USA.   There are users that have to pay for the
amount of data they up/download above a certain limit.  An example is
cia.com.au (what's in a name...)   Almost all users in Europe have to pay
for the time they use a phoneline.  Lots of users in Europe have to pay for
the time they use their server.  As you might have guessed, I'm from Europe.

A better solution would be to place such files on a web page, upload them
to an FTP server or send them to alt.binaries.whatever .......
Or just a msg with 'I will E-mail you the file on request' will do....


Greetings,
Peer


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
   Peer Ouwehand
   spamBeGonepouwehaKILLspamspamKILLspamiaehv.nl
   http://www.iaehv.nl/users/pouweha/

   Welcome my son, welcome to the machine. (Pink Floyd)
><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

1997\11\17@152252 by Roger Books

flavicon
face
> > > Hmmm, current disk price is $0.05 per meg and falling rapidly.
> > >
> > > 81 K of attachments is taking up "valuable space" worth $$0.00396 (US).
>  Thats
> > > right, 4 tenths of a cent. Significant? You decide.
> >
> > With a 14.4K modem, 71K of data will take over two minutes to transfer.
>
> 10 bits per byte, 14400 bits per second = 1440 bytes per second, 71K =
> 72704 bytes, 72704 / 1440 ... takes 50.5 seconds. Over two minutes?

In an ideal world maybe.  Don't forget overhead and line noise.

My 14,400 connection takes about 1 min 30 seconds to download 65K, do
note this is 65K after encoding form smtp transport (7 bit).  Now, for
one this is no big deal, but if it became standard practice it could get
quite annoying.


Roger

(Really need to get a 16550 based serial card so I can actually use
my 28.8 modem.)

1997\11\17@154916 by Eric van Es

flavicon
face
Tom Rogers wrote:

> On the other hand, Andy has some valid points:

> ******
> >    Also, many PICLIST members pay for their internet access by the
>  >   byte... When you send them 81K of data that they don't want,
>  >   you're costing them money.
> ******
> Who still pays by the byte? I did an informal survey the last time this came
> up, and I got bupkiss for an answer. I asked my kid to check around at school,
> and he came up empty, too.

I pay by the minute/second! Did your survey include that too?

> I pay for storage above a certain reasonable amount. If I get my mail every
> two months or so I never exceed it.

I also pay for more than 2MB of storage.

> ******
> >    And... The PICLIST is archived on the web.  If your attached
>  >   files aren't filtered out by the archiving software, they take
>  >   up valuable space there.
> ******
> Yeah, they should probably be filtered out. How to do that is the real
> question.

Sorry guys but I think that argument is petty. What might be a factor is whether
tha large mail slows the system down....

But if you are desperate enough, you'll do anything....

> >    The best way to distribute binary files is to put them up on a
>  >   web page or ftp site somewhere, then just post a short message
>  >   to the list which describes the files and their location.
> ******

Ok It might be a _bit_ late now, but I'll put the files up on my homepage under
PIC's

Cheers!

--
Eric van Es               | Cape Town, South Africa
TakeThisOuTvanesspamspamilink.nis.za | http://www.nis.za/~vanes
LOOKING FOR TEMPORARY / HOLIDAY ACCOMODATION?
http://www.nis.za/~vanes/accom.htm

1997\11\17@165456 by William B. Keane

flavicon
face
My vote is no attachments.

If you have something that long put it on a web page.
If you don't have a web page get one their free ie
Geocities.

Bill

1997\11\17@234849 by tjaart

flavicon
face
John Payson wrote:
>
> > Hmmm, current disk price is $0.05 per meg and falling rapidly.
> >
> > 81 K of attachments is taking up "valuable space" worth $$0.00396 (US).
Thats
> > right, 4 tenths of a cent. Significant? You decide.
>
> With a 14.4K modem, 71K of data will take over two minutes to transfer.
> Not a huge amount, but enough to be irksome; over long distance, that could
> easily cost $0.10 or more (e.g. calling from Monroe, WI to the nearest ISP
> in Madison, WI).  Nothing to break the bank, but irksome nonetheless.

I think some perspective is in order here... To bicker about a few cents
when the information you receive is worth much more, doesn't make sense.
The
advice and ideas flying around are priceless.

Those 14.4 modems belong in museums...

--
Friendly Regards

Tjaart van der Walt
spamBeGonetjaartspamwasp.co.za
_____________________________________________________________
| WASP International http://www.wasp.co.za/~tjaart/index.html |
|       R&D Engineer : GSM peripheral services development    |
|   Vehicle tracking | Telemetry systems | GSM data transfer  |
|    Voice : +27-(0)11-622-8686 | Fax : +27-(0)11-622-8973    |
|              WGS-84 : 26010.52'S 28006.19'E                 |
|_____________________________________________________________|

1997\11\18@131906 by Wayne Foletta

flavicon
face
Tom:
A survey here got:
One T1 link user votes OK to send binary (big surprise).
One ISDN user votes OK also.
One Netcom dial-up 33KBPS user votes OK.
The general thought is why restrict the flow of information? Unless we
getting spam what's the problem?

- Wayne Foletta
BMI - Santa Clara

       >Not really an appropriate number analysis here, Andy. I only
heard 1 big
       >complaint out of 1100 lurkers trying to suck up information.
90% did not vote against
       >receiving the attachments; they didn't express their opinion,
and as such can't be counted
       >in the against or even uninterested column.

1997\11\18@142150 by Roger Books

flavicon
face
> Tom:
> A survey here got:
> One T1 link user votes OK to send binary (big surprise).
> One ISDN user votes OK also.
> One Netcom dial-up 33KBPS user votes OK.
> The general thought is why restrict the flow of information? Unless we
> getting spam what's the problem?

One T-3 user (that's me) votes no.  Is it really that much of an
inconvenience for you to put your binaries on a web page?  Geocities
is FREE.  I personally would like the user who barely has a connection
in the middle of S.America with a 2400 Baud modem to still be functional
on the list.

Funny, you have three yes votes, what happened to all the "NO" votes
I saw flow by?

Roger

1997\11\18@160255 by Matt Bonner

flavicon
face
A month or so ago, when I put together a compilation of the "Averaging"
thread, I offered it via *private* email.  Just put a simple link in
your mail if your mailer can handle it: (EraseMEmbonnerEraseMEspamsunada.com) or
make sure the "reply to" address of your posting is your own and not the
PIClist.

I think that this approach is far superior to attaching ANY size of
binaries.  Once the volume of my offering got past 50, Eric was kind
enough to put a link on his page - a better way if the volume demands
it.

Another thing:
Use [OT] in the subject of off-topic postings, NOT the many variations
I've seen - [ot], {OT}, etc.

Now, can we get rid of those blasted ms-tnef attachments? :-P

--Matt

1997\11\19@163440 by paulb

flavicon
face
Well, I for just one, was interested in the diagrams.

 There may have been more concise ways to send them (PDF perhaps?) but
thay makes things more difficult for the sender.

 The funny thing was that I can't seem to get Netscape to PRINT them
(seem to be too many dots or something)!  This may indicate (albeit
indirectly) that they were sent at an unnecessarily high resolution.
Halve the scale factor and quarter the file size.

 Cheers,
       Paul B.


'Suppressing Messages'
1998\01\03@122311 by jrmont
picon face
Can someone explain how to suppress the messages in the listing file
when using MPLAB? I have cleaned up the code to get rid of all but the
warnings that a register that I am accessing is in bank1 and I may not
have set the bank select bit to point there. I do want errors, warnings
and messages to go to a .err file. Thanks.

'Pic message archive'
1998\01\05@110242 by Charles Laforge

picon face
Hi there

Is there a spot where all these messages are archived?


Charles

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

1998\01\05@160437 by Don McKenzie

flavicon
face
Charles Laforge wrote:
>
> Hi there
>
> Is there a spot where all these messages are archived?

Try:
http://www.iversoft.com/piclist/

Don McKenzie  spamBeGonedonspam_OUTspam.....dontronics.com   http://www.dontronics.com

Don's Download Dungeon http://www.dontronics.com/download.html
DonTronics Logo Design Contest http://www.dontronics.com/logo.html
For more details, send a blank message to spaminfospamdontronics.com
or RemoveMEsimstickKILLspamspamKILLspamdontronics.com or EraseMEbasicsspamBeGonespamspamdontronics.com

'New Address Guide Message'
1998\01\20@134110 by ss Guide for Compaq

picon face
You received a mail message from:       KILLspamshepfspamINTERNETMCI.COMThe message was
sent to the address:    PICLISTspam_OUTspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDUThis address is tied to your
old Banyan mailbox.  This addresswill soon become invalid.  Please
contact the sender and let them know your new Internet mail address.If
you do not know your Internet mail address, please follow the directions
listed on Inline at:
inline.compaq.com/im/is/ops/ishc/ANSWERS/Intrmail.htm#RecievingIf
you have any questions that the above link does not answer, please
contact your local help desk.

'Message on piclist'
1998\01\21@181932 by Joseph H Shepherd

picon face
Hi Again

I do not know if my question ever got on the list?? But I would like to
find a program
to run a stepper motor from my stamp 1 using my pic16c84 as the driver.
I'm looking for a small hex program for my pic16c84,
The stepper is a small 4 phase.

  1step=0110  2step=1010   3step=1001  4step=0101

                                                                     Jim
S.

'Test Message'
1998\01\22@152944 by John Shreffler

flavicon
face
This is a test message to see if I threw the correct switch to
eliminate the trailer gibberish for which I have occasionally been flamed.
If there is now no trailer, and you are running Outlook 97, email me
privately, and I will tell you what I did.  Of course, if there is
still a trailer on this message, then I have stepped on my crank,
and will don the asbestos.

Attachment converted: wonderland:WINMAIL.DAT (????/----) (0001107F)

1998\01\22@154824 by peter

flavicon
face
John Shreffler wrote:
>
> This is a test message to see if I threw the correct switch to
> eliminate the trailer gibberish for which I have occasionally been flamed.
> If there is now no trailer, and you are running Outlook 97, email me
> privately, and I will tell you what I did.  Of course, if there is
> still a trailer on this message, then I have stepped on my crank,
> and will don the asbestos.
>
>                    Name: WINMAIL.DAT
>     Part 1.2       Type: unspecified type (application/octet-stream)
>                Encoding: x-uuencode

Kinda hot for winter isn't it

peterspamspam@spam@cousens.her.forthnet.gr

1998\01\22@180752 by Mauro, Chuck

flavicon
face
Hi,

Thanks for the ping.  I use Outlook - and KLA-TENCOR is entirely on
Exchange (over 5K employees and counting)...  So, what did you do?
There is no trailer with your message, so I'd say you did it right!

Chuck Mauro
RAPID Engineering
KLA-TENCOR

> {Original Message removed}

'Recall: Test Message'
1998\01\22@180755 by Mauro, Chuck

flavicon
face
Mauro, Chuck would like to recall the message, "Test Message".


'Warning: could not send message for past 4 hours'
1998\02\04@101119 by myke predko
flavicon
face
Hi Folks,

Did my (later) messages about converting a byte to hex and back again show
up (ie is the message below a bounce)?  When I look through the information
below, I can't find any instances of the piclist's mailing address.

Thanx,

myke


   **********************************************
   **      THIS IS A WARNING MESSAGE ONLY      **
   **  YOU DO NOT NEED TO RESEND YOUR MESSAGE  **
   **********************************************

The original message was received at Tue, 3 Feb 1998 22:01:24 +0100 (CET)
from [194.23.194.130]

  ----- The following addresses had transient non-fatal errors -----
<spamBeGonehdlga.....spamnsmail.halmstad.se>

  ----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to nsmail.halmstad.se.:
>>> DATA
<<< 452 Filesystem error - message not accepted
<.....hdlga@spam@spamnsmail.halmstad.se>... Deferred: 452 Filesystem error - message not
accepted
Warning: message still undelivered after 4 hours
Will keep trying until message is 2 days old
Reporting-MTA: dns; mailb.telia.com
Arrival-Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 22:01:24 +0100 (CET)

Final-Recipient: RFC822; @spam@hdlgaspamnsmail.halmstad.se
Action: delayed
Status: 4.3.1
Remote-MTA: DNS; nsmail.halmstad.se
Diagnostic-Code: SMTP; 452 Filesystem error - message not accepted
Last-Attempt-Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 02:30:26 +0100 (CET)
Will-Retry-Until: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 22:01:24 +0100 (CET)
Return-Path: <mykeRemoveMEspamPASSPORT.CA>
Received: from gw7399 ([194.23.194.130])
       by mailb.telia.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA27527
       for <spamhdlgaspamnsmail.halmstad.se>; Tue, 3 Feb 1998 22:01:24 +0100 (CET)
From: mykespam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTPASSPORT.CA
Message-Id: <spam_OUT199802032101.WAA27527@spam@spamRemoveMEmailb.telia.com>> Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 22:01:52 +0100
To:
spamhdlgaspamspamnsmail.halmstad.se
Subject:      Re: Converting from a Byte to ASCII (was LFSR)
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

X-Mailer: TFS Gateway /222000000/223030975/223004676/223084324/

Vassili wrote:

<SNIP my original stuff>

>Dear Myke
>For such a conversion I use look-up table.

The problems with a table look up method is that it takes a minimum of 14
cycles to do the conversion and you are looking at 23 instructions (without
regards to PCLATH or other page bits), this is compared to my method that
takes 12 cycles and 12 Instructions.  I am assuming the code would be:

 movf/swapf  TMP, w            ;  Get the High/Low Nybble
 andlw  0x00F                  ;  Isolate for the Table
 call   HextoASCII             ;  Call the Table

With HextoASCII being an "addwf PCL"/"retlw '0'"/"retlw '1'"/...

Or is there a better way of doing this?

{Quote hidden}

I like this algorithm, but I'm curious to understand why you don't write it
as:

 movwf  TMP
 btfss  TMP, 5                 ;  Skip Over if 0x030 - 0x03F
  addlw 9                      ;   Convert the lower byte to valid Hex
 andlw  0x00F

 return

This would save you one cycle/instruction, or am I missing something here?
In any case, it's a great algorithm (and definitely going into my "snippet"
folder).

>PS: recently bought your book. Have some notes. If you are interested in
>critics let me know. I then will send my notes to you privately.

Sure, I'm interested in what I can do better next time.

myke

Opus:  There's a 465 pound woman pruning her azelias while wearing a pink
stretch bodysuit.

911 Operator:  So what's the emergency?

Opus:  From a taste perspective, it's a crisis of biblical proportions!


Opus:  There's a 465 pound woman pruning her azelias while wearing a pink
stretch bodysuit.

911 Operator:  So what's the emergency?

Opus:  From a taste perspective, it's a crisis of biblical proportions!

1998\02\04@104119 by Morgan Olsson

picon face
At 10:08 1998-02-04 -0500, you wrote:
>Hi Folks,
>
>Did my (later) messages about converting a byte to hex and back again show
>up (ie is the message below a bounce)?  When I look through the information
>below, I can't find any instances of the piclist's mailing address.
>
>Thanx,
>
>myke
>
Yes, it did show up before.

I«ve got some messages like this myself recently. And friends of mine.
Problably there are lots of problems in internet mail nowadays.

To get copys of your own mail send "SET  PICLIST REPRO" as message to
@spam@LISTSERVspam_OUTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU. I think i«ts a good idea. See below.

Let«s not use more bandwidth on this.

In information message from: "L-Soft list server at MITVMA (1.8c)"
<.....LISTSERVspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU> :
========
You may leave the list at any time by sending a "SIGNOFF PICLIST" command
to spamLISTSERVKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU (or RemoveMELISTSERVRemoveMEspamMITVMA.BITNET). You can also tell
LISTSERV how you want  it to confirm the receipt of  messages you send to
the list.  If you  do not trust  the system, send  a "SET  PICLIST REPRO"
command and LISTSERV will  send you a copy of your  own messages, so that
you can see that  the message was distributed and did  not get damaged on
the  way. After  a while  you  may find  that this  is getting  annoying,
especially if  your mail program  does not tell  you that the  message is
>from you when it  informs you that new mail has  arrived from PICLIST. If
you send  a "SET PICLIST ACK  NOREPRO" command, LISTSERV will  mail you a
short acknowledgement instead, which will  look different in your mailbox
directory. With most mail programs you will know immediately that this is
an  acknowledgement  you  can  read  later. Finally,  you  can  turn  off
acknowledgements completely with "SET PICLIST NOACK NOREPRO".
========


{Quote hidden}

Regards
/Morgan
Morgan Olsson, MORGANS REGLERTEKNIK, Sweden
KILLspammrtspam@spam@iname.com, ph: +46 (0)414 70741; fax 70331
-

'Did anyone get my message ?'
1998\02\05@003936 by Stephen Court

flavicon
face
I've got no idea whether my messages are being received by the list server.
Does the server NOT send a copy to the person who posted it ?

Stephen Court           @spam@scourtRemoveMEspamelectra.com.au
Electra International   http://www.electra.com.au
Automotive Electronics Diagnostic Equipment
Unit 2, 15 Anthony Street,              ph +61 7 3846 3393
West End, Brisbane              fax +61 7 3846 3282
Queensland 4101 Australia

1998\02\05@005008 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face
At 03:38 PM 2/5/98 +1100, you wrote:
>I've got no idea whether my messages are being received by the list server.
>Does the server NOT send a copy to the person who posted it ?

Right. If you want copies, send a "SET PICLIST REPRO" or some such to
listserv@spam@spamEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu

-bob

http://www.bobblick.com/

1998\02\05@135246 by andre

flavicon
face
I have got your message it works fine.

Andre

Stephen Court wrote:

{Quote hidden}

--








==========================================
= http://www.compufire.com               =
= RemoveMEandrespam.....compufire.com             =
= spammcu-engineering@spam@spamcompufire.com   =
= Andre Abelian: Engine Electronics, Inc.=
= Tel 909-589-5485  Fax 909-598-5695     =
==========================================

'error messages'
1998\02\06@092017 by TORRENS SR

flavicon
face
The project that I am currently working on compiles with no errors.
When I look at the error file there is both messages and warnings.
The message says that the register is not in bank0, but this is
right, its not. I am also getting a warning 'found label after column
1.
Can anyone tell me what these mean.

Thanks.
Ross.
e-mail: Torrens-srTakeThisOuTspamulst.ac.uk

1998\02\08@072955 by TORRENS SR

flavicon
face
The project that I am currently working on compiles with no errors.
When I look at the error file there is both messages and warnings. The
message says that the register is not in bank0, but this is right, its
not. I am also getting a warning 'found label after column 1. Can
anyone tell me what these mean.

Thanks.
Ross.
e-mail: .....Torrens-srspamTakeThisOuTulst.ac.uk

'Gibberish trailers on messages.'
1998\02\27@121732 by John Shreffler

flavicon
face
I have recently been enlightened by a fellow piclister
about "digital signatures" which are automatically added
to my messages, which are a form of security to
guarantee authenticity, and allow tracibility.  In discussing
this with my company's resident systems admin guru,
I learned that we can indeed supress this, if we bought
additional software modules that would do this.  Now,
it is finally clear why Bill Gates is a mutibillionaire, and
I am not.  Imagine having to buy additional software to
make one's computer do less.  Is this a great country,
or what?

1998\02\27@182711 by Haile, Sam

flavicon
face
I am not sure if your guru is telling the truth
you don't need software to do that...what email app. r u using any way?



On Fri, 27 Feb 1998, John Shreffler wrote:

{Quote hidden}

1998\02\28@111204 by John Shreffler

flavicon
face
Outlook 97, running on Windows NT.  I will listen to
anything you might have to say on this.

-----Original Message-----
From:   Haile, Sam [SMTP:EraseMEshailespamKILLspamESSEX.AC.UK]
Sent:   Friday, February 27, 1998 6:09 PM
To:     PICLISTEraseMEspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject:        Re: Gibberish trailers on messages.

I am not sure if your guru is telling the truth
you don't need software to do that...what email app. r u using any way?



On Fri, 27 Feb 1998, John Shreffler wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Attachment converted: wonderland:WINMAIL.DAT (????/----) (000139C9)

1998\02\28@133345 by Orin Eman

flavicon
face
> Outlook 97, running on Windows NT.  I will listen to
> anything you might have to say on this.

The usual way to stop Outlook 97 doing this is to create a personal
address book entry for the list and make sure the Exchange rich text
option is turned off in the properties for that address book entry.
You may need to set the plain text option under advanced too.
I know I did persuade it to send plain text with no attachment
when I tried this.

At least you aren't sending html only :-P

Orin.


'C Compiler final message'
1998\03\02@081812 by Rajko Cebavs
flavicon
face
Hello !

You can get C compiler which I was offering to all of you
on WEB site (see below) of my friend.
It is easier for me to deliver it that way.

Richard Skinner
EraseMErwskinnerspamspamBeGoneworldnet.att.net
http://home.att.net/~rwskinner

Rajko Cebavs
Ljubno 111
4244 Podnart
Slovenia
phone  0038664731568
E-mail : TakeThisOuTRajko.CebavsspamTakeThisOuTguest.arnes.si

1998\03\02@091456 by Mark Lezama

flavicon
face
I can go to this page, always I get an error

Rajko Cebavs escribis:

{Quote hidden}

1998\03\02@135543 by Morgan Olsson

picon face
At 10:09 1998-03-02 -0400, Mark Lezama wrote:
>I can go to this page, always I get an error

Tried another browser?
Works for me, using Opera 3.10

But where can I find a .arj decompressing utility?

/Morgan

{Quote hidden}

/  Morgan Olsson, MORGANS REGLERTEKNIK, SE-277 35 KIVIK, Sweden \
\  RemoveMEmrtRemoveMEspamTakeThisOuTiname.com, ph: +46 (0)414 70741; fax +46 (0)414 70331    /

1998\03\02@221109 by richard skinner

flavicon
face
The C Compiler was removed from the Web Site today.  It seems I was mistaken
when I said it was a Public Beta Wide Version.  It turned out to be an Old
Beta that
had been tampered with.  Please destroy any copies you may have downloaded
from
my site.  There is a new, much better copy available from Hi-Tech's Web Site
@
http://www.htsoft.com

Sorry, I will check things out better in the future before I put them up for
download.
Richard Skinner
rwskinnerTakeThisOuTspam@spam@worldnet.att.net
http://home.att.net/~rwskinner

----------
{Quote hidden}


'WARNING MESSAGE'
1998\04\08@015105 by Leonardo De Palo
flavicon
face
part 0 800 bytes content-type:application/octet-stream; (decoded 7bit)

during  the compilation I obtain a warnin message. I know it is only a
warning but i prefer to avoid.
I have written the routine for bank switching as is written on the manual.
Someone can know the way to solve this strange problem.

Attached please find the source and the error file.

Thanks

Ciao

Leonardo

Content-Type: application/octet-stream;
       name="Ledn.err"
Content-Disposition: attachment;
       filename="Ledn.err"

Attachment converted: wonderland:Ledn.err (????/----) (00003182)
Content-Type: application/octet-stream;
       name="Ledn.asm"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: attachment;
       filename="Ledn.asm"

Attachment converted: wonderland:Ledn.asm (????/----) (00003183)

1998\04\08@025421 by TONY NIXON 54964

flavicon
picon face
The message is to remind you that you need to specify the correct RAM
page bit in the Status register (rp0) when addressing RAM locations.

You can stop the compiler issuing these errors by placing this in the
source code,

errorlevel -302

Tony


PicNPoke Multimedia 16F84 Beginners PIC Tools.

**PLUS** - PicNPlay - PicNPlan - PicNPrep - PicNPost
PicNPort - DT Type Saver - *new* PicNQuiz.
Recent addition - DogBoneZ Component.

http://www.dontronics.com/picnpoke.html

1998\04\08@043253 by Michael Hagberg

flavicon
face
to get rid of these messages without disabling all warnings i refer to
address in bank one as follows

by anding the address value with 0x7F the address will be in the movwf range
and no message will appear.

another way is to modify the .inc files and change the bank one address by
subtracting 0x80 from them. this method is NOT recommended because you would
have to modify the .inc files everytime you got an update and you would be
creating code that is not machine independent. if microchip where to modify
the files i'm sure nobody would complain and the bank one address warning
messages would go away for all of us.

 movwf   0x17                      ; 9600 baud
 movwf   SPBRG & 0x7F
 movlw   0xA0
 movwf   TXSTA & 0x7F
 movlw   0x05                    ; 2 analog, vref=AN3

michael

{Original Message removed}

1998\04\08@161720 by Mike Keitz

picon face
On Wed, 8 Apr 1998 03:36:21 -0500 Michael Hagberg
<STOPspammhagbergEraseMEspamSIGNALHILL.NET> writes:
>to get rid of these messages without disabling all warnings i refer to
>address in bank one as follows
>
>by anding the address value with 0x7F the address will be in the movwf
>range
>and no message will appear.

This works, it is a little better to xor the address with 0x80 instead.
Then if you get confused and think an address is in page 1 when it is
actually in page 0, the xor will set the high bit and the assembler will
warn you.
>
>another way is to modify the .inc files and change the bank one
>address by
>subtracting 0x80 from them.

An absolutely terrible idea.  First, by using xors having the eight bit
in the constant allows checking if the page is correct.  Also, since it
is sometimes practical to use indirect access rather than changing the
bank select bits, the address in the include file needs to be complete.

For example, if you use the code
       movlw   TRISA           ;Address of the port A
tri-state register
       movwf   FSR             ;can be reached indirectly
       movlw   _trisa          ;Constant for the setting of
tris register
       movwf   INDF            ;set it.

it will not work if the address in the include file doesn't have the
eight bit of the address.

If you don't want to see the warning message, set the errorlevel so it is
not printed:

errorlevel -302


_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

'TEST MESSAGE...IGNORE'
1998\04\14@093734 by dparker

flavicon
face
This is a test.

'persistent PIC16C84 messages'
1998\04\16@205520 by MARVIN ANDROID

picon face
Hi everyone,

The following code brings up these two messages all the time (line 86,90). What
am i doing wrong? Im thinking it has to be something obvious (hoping)..

Please help! :-)

Gabes.
BusiTech Software
PS: A side issue - lines 82 and 83 are exactly the same instruction but I
noticed that the hex codes are identical. STATUS has been set to 3 yet both
commands refer to 0x83 which is also STATUS but in bank 1. *sigh* I hate being
a newby..
--------------------------------------------------------------
                   00078
001C                00079 START             ; Beginning of program
                   00080
                   00081   ;set PORTB as inputs
001C 1683           00082   bsf   STATUS, RP0   ;select bank 1
001D 1683           00083   bsf   3, RP0   ;select bank 1
                   00084
001E 3000           00085   movlw 0x00
Message[302]: Register in operand not in bank 0.  Ensure that bank bits are
correct.
001F 0086           00086   movwf TRISB
                   00087
                   00088   ;set PORTA as inputs
0020 301F           00089   movlw 0x1F
Message[302]: Register in operand not in bank 0.  Ensure that bank bits are
correct.
0021 0085           00090   movwf TRISA
                   00091
0022 1283           00092   bcf   STATUS, RP0   ;select bank 0
                   00093   ;check mode
0023 1A05           00094   btfsc PORTA, RA4T0CK1
                   00095
0024 2806           00096   goto RUN_MODE
0025 2807           00097   goto PROGRAMMING_MODE
                   00098
                   00099   END
--------------------------------------------------------------



____________________________________________________________________
Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1

1998\04\17@015259 by Lauri Pirttiaho

picon face
Re:
>The following code brings up these two messages all the time (line 86,90). What
> am i doing wrong? Im thinking it has to be something obvious (hoping)..
...
>Message[302]: Register in operand not in bank 0.  Ensure that bank bits are
> correct.
>001F 0086           00086   movwf TRISB
...

There is nothing wrong since you have correctly chosen the bank previously.
The message is just a warning in the case you forgot to do it.

>PS: A side issue - lines 82 and 83 are exactly the same instruction but I
> noticed that the hex codes are identical. STATUS has been set to 3 yet both
> commands refer to 0x83 which is also STATUS but in bank 1. *sigh* I hate being
> a newby..

The binary code for bsf is 01 0110 1XXX XXXX where XXX XXXX is the address
in the register file. The eighth bit is ignored when the opcode is
assembled and in the case it is significant you have to ensure
that it is writtein in Status,RP0 (what the Message[302] instructs
you to do.)

-- Lauri

---
<a href="http://www.ee.oulu.fi/~lapi/">For more info.</a>

1998\04\17@045906 by Marco DI LEO

flavicon
face
MARVIN ANDROID wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> The following code brings up these two messages all the time (line 86,90).
What
>  am i doing wrong? Im thinking it has to be something obvious (hoping)..

Nothing wrong, this is just the way MPASM uses to remind you that the
registers (TRISA and TRISB) you are accessing are not located in bank 0
and you have to set RP0 accordingly (seems you have done that).
To get rid of the warnings you can mask off the high bit of the bank 1
register address as in:

       movwf   TRISB & 0x7f

or, better:

       movwf   TRISB ^ 0x80

The latter is preferable because prevents you to use a bank 0 register
thinking is located  on bank 1 (this will give you the 302 warning).

> PS: A side issue - lines 82 and 83 are exactly the same instruction but I
>  noticed that the hex codes are identical. STATUS has been set to 3 yet both
>  commands refer to 0x83 which is also STATUS but in bank 1. *sigh* I hate
being
>  a newby..

The coding is the same because there is only 7 bit for the address
operand in the instruction. That's the reason wy the RP0 bit exists.

Ciao
 Marco

----
Marco DI LEO                  email: m.dileospamBeGonespamsistinf.it
Sistemi Informativi S.p.A.    tel:   +39 6 50292 300
V. Elio Vittorini, 129        fax:   +39 6 5015991
I-00144 Roma
Italy

'Receipt of 4/22/98 3:37 PM message'
1998\04\22@125915 by Krueger, Ted

flavicon
face
Re:Re: 386/486 for embedded systems?

'unable to post messages (list administrator)'
1998\04\25@011546 by -Dossary %166.87.109.11%

flavicon
face
i have not been able to post any messages since i have subscribed i week
ago. i am doing some projects with PIC16F84 I HAVE ITU PROGRAMMER WITH
CSS CLANG COMPILER. I have just started with pic and i am looking to go
serious with it. by the way i have visited MIT  long time ago in
massachusits


thank you


abdulla aldossary


'DEBT MANAGEMENT CLUB MESSAGE EXPLAINED'
1998\06\03@031451 by Dave Mullenix
flavicon
face
A recent post may have confused many members of the PIC list who live
outside the USA.  Because they don't have a lifetime of experience
living in the USA and reading idiomatic English, they may not have
the background necessary to "read between the lines", so to speak.

For the benefit of those people, I'm reposting the original message
with explanatory comments to help non-Americans understand exactly
what its author is saying.

As you read this, remember that the message's target audience is
Americans with more money than brains.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: We PAY your DEBTS & you never have to pay us back!
   Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:35:40 -0400
   From: Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV administrator

Our research indicates that the following material may be of interest
to you;
[Specifically, our research indicates that your IQ is in the low double
digit range.]

(However, so that we may be courteous, please reply by email with the
word "remove" to be immediately removed from further mailings.  You
must type "remove".)
[This gives us your email address and confirms our estimate of your IQ.]


Welcome to the DEBT MANAGEMENT CLUB, an organization that has been
featured in respected business trade and money periodicals.
[Such as "60 Minutes", "20-20" and "Crimestoppers"]

This is not a business opportunity.
[Certainly not!  A business opportunity is a chance to MAKE money.
This is an opportunity to LOSE money.]

Of course, in today's world there are endless scams where we all have
to be extremely careful.
[No kidding!]

If this sounds like one, it isn't.
[It is.]

Nor is it a money making scheme,
[For you, it will be a money LOSING scheme.]

or a multi-level marketing pitch in search for new recruits.
[You are the only human in the world dumb enough to fall for this.]

The Debt Management Club (DMC) legally helps people pay their debts
up to $100,000 without a bankruptcy or damage to a person's credit.
[You give us large amounts of money, we send some of it to your
creditors.  If you send us enough, some of your debts will be paid.]

Everyday we pay student loans, credit cards, child support, mortgages,
IRS liens, utility and phone bills,property tax liens and rents/leases.
[Specifically, we pay OUR student loans, credit cards, child support,
mortgages, IRS liens, utility and phone bills, property tax liens,
rents/leases, etc.  All YOU have to do is provide the money.]

And the money used to pay the debts never needs to be paid back.
[That's right!  Once you've paid off a debt, you generally don't have
to pay it back again.  And we're sure not going to pay YOU back!]

Sound interesting?
[Remember your double digit IQ!]

Well it should, and yes, it is a reality.
[With your IQ, you SHOULD fall for this.  Really.]

How you ask?
[We have mastered the technique of telling lies to suckers.]

There is one way only to find out.
[And it's a very valuable lesson.  At least, it will certainly be
an expensive lesson.]

You may call (818) 763-1000  Ext 1645 for a phone appointment
[If this is a local call, please do not call 500 times and laugh.]

(during normal business hours)
[We begin partying on your money at precisely 4:30 PM.]

after sending in the following completed short form.
[This is VERY important.  See below for reasons why.]

You may fax or mail in this form.
[See restrictions on local calls above. Remember, the Post
Office will NOT deliver mail with insufficient postage.  Especially
if it's taped to a brick.]

You must also attach an address verification (a copy of a
phone bill for example) when returning this form.
[So we are absolutely CERTAIN our estimates of your IQ are accurate.]

Fax- (818) 769-7358 (to attention: ext. 1645)
[Because this fax machine is in a copy shop.]

Send letter bombs to: 5318 Laurel Canyon Bl. #104, Valley Village Ca
91607



         NON-DISCLOSURE/NON-COMPETE AGREEMENT FORM

The undersigned hereby agrees not to disclose any information given
to him/her regarding the Debt Managemnt Club to anyone;
[Especially to law enforcement officials or any kind of attorney.]

and further agrees not to compete the DMC in the U.S.A. or anywhere
in the world.
[After all, the supply of suckers.. er.. people with your remarkable
potential is not infinite.]

(ext#1645)

Name___________________________Date_________________

Address______________________________________________

Phone________________________ Fax____________________

City_____________________State_________  Zip___________

Signature_______________________________

GET THIS SOB!! >>>>>>>>>>> Invited by Andrew Devore, Member 1645

1998\06\03@110102 by Martin Green

flavicon
face
    Very funny!! You know, I deleted the original message so fast I didn't
    even see the hilarious 'red flag' about sending an 'address
    verification' such as a phone bill. A few years ago here in Ontario
    Canada, when the natural gas market was deregulated, the gas marketers
    used a similar trick to get you to switch gas suppliers without even
    realizing it. They would come to your door and mislead you to believe
    that they were from your local gas company. They would tell you that,
    due to changes in government regulations you were eligible for a
    refund or reduced rate, all you needed to do to obtain this windfall
    was to supply them with a original of a recent gas bill.  Using this
    deception, thousands of residents in Ontario were switched to an
    alternate gas marketer without their knowledge. Since their original
    gas supplier continued to do the billing, remitting the marketers
    portion from the money sent to them, most people didn't realize they
    had been switched for several YEARS, until the gas supplier sent out a
    letter (they were getting swamped with complaints), saying, in effect,
    "our records show that you are being supplied gas by XYZ company. If
    you have any questions about your account please contact them
    directly... blah, blah, blah."

    I guess I shouldn't be surprised at the number of PICLIST'ers that
    tried to 'remove' themselves by repying to the PICLIST (over 10 now).
    Just look at how many attempts we get to unsubscribe by sending
    commands to the list instead of the server, or just asking the magic
    genie to 'please remove me from your list".


    CIAO - Martin.


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: DEBT MANAGEMENT CLUB MESSAGE EXPLAINED
Author:  pic microcontroller discussion list <PICLIST@spam@spamMITVMA.MIT.EDU> at
Internet
Date:    6/3/98 1:31 AM


A recent post may have confused many members of the PIC list who live
outside the USA.  Because they don't have a lifetime of experience
living in the USA and reading idiomatic English, they may not have
the background necessary to "read between the lines", so to speak.

For the benefit of those people, I'm reposting the original message
with explanatory comments to help non-Americans understand exactly
what its author is saying.

As you read this, remember that the message's target audience is
Americans with more money than brains.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: We PAY your DEBTS & you never have to pay us back!
   Date: Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:35:40 -0400
   From: Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV administrator

Our research indicates that the following material may be of interest
to you;
[Specifically, our research indicates that your IQ is in the low double
digit range.]

(However, so that we may be courteous, please reply by email with the
word "remove" to be immediately removed from further mailings.  You
must type "remove".)
[This gives us your email address and confirms our estimate of your IQ.]


Welcome to the DEBT MANAGEMENT CLUB, an organization that has been
featured in respected business trade and money periodicals.
[Such as "60 Minutes", "20-20" and "Crimestoppers"]

This is not a business opportunity.
[Certainly not!  A business opportunity is a chance to MAKE money.
This is an opportunity to LOSE money.]

Of course, in today's world there are endless scams where we all have
to be extremely careful.
[No kidding!]

If this sounds like one, it isn't.
[It is.]

Nor is it a money making scheme,
[For you, it will be a money LOSING scheme.]

or a multi-level marketing pitch in search for new recruits.
[You are the only human in the world dumb enough to fall for this.]

The Debt Management Club (DMC) legally helps people pay their debts
up to $100,000 without a bankruptcy or damage to a person's credit.
[You give us large amounts of money, we send some of it to your
creditors.  If you send us enough, some of your debts will be paid.]

Everyday we pay student loans, credit cards, child support, mortgages,
IRS liens, utility and phone bills,property tax liens and rents/leases.
[Specifically, we pay OUR student loans, credit cards, child support,
mortgages, IRS liens, utility and phone bills, property tax liens,
rents/leases, etc.  All YOU have to do is provide the money.]

And the money used to pay the debts never needs to be paid back.
[That's right!  Once you've paid off a debt, you generally don't have
to pay it back again.  And we're sure not going to pay YOU back!]

Sound interesting?
[Remember your double digit IQ!]

Well it should, and yes, it is a reality.
[With your IQ, you SHOULD fall for this.  Really.]

How you ask?
[We have mastered the technique of telling lies to suckers.]

There is one way only to find out.
[And it's a very valuable lesson.  At least, it will certainly be
an expensive lesson.]

You may call (818) 763-1000  Ext 1645 for a phone appointment
[If this is a local call, please do not call 500 times and laugh.]

(during normal business hours)
[We begin partying on your money at precisely 4:30 PM.]

after sending in the following completed short form.
[This is VERY important.  See below for reasons why.]

You may fax or mail in this form.
[See restrictions on local calls above. Remember, the Post
Office will NOT deliver mail with insufficient postage.  Especially
if it's taped to a brick.]

You must also attach an address verification (a copy of a
phone bill for example) when returning this form.
[So we are absolutely CERTAIN our estimates of your IQ are accurate.]

Fax- (818) 769-7358 (to attention: ext. 1645)
[Because this fax machine is in a copy shop.]

Send letter bombs to: 5318 Laurel Canyon Bl. #104, Valley Village Ca
91607



         NON-DISCLOSURE/NON-COMPETE AGREEMENT FORM

The undersigned hereby agrees not to disclose any information given
to him/her regarding the Debt Managemnt Club to anyone;
[Especially to law enforcement officials or any kind of attorney.]

and further agrees not to compete the DMC in the U.S.A. or anywhere
in the world.
[After all, the supply of suckers.. er.. people with your remarkable
potential is not infinite.]

(ext#1645)

Name___________________________Date_________________

Address______________________________________________

Phone________________________ Fax____________________

City_____________________State_________  Zip___________

Signature_______________________________

GET THIS SOB!! >>>>>>>>>>> Invited by Andrew Devore, Member 1645

1998\06\03@112312 by myke predko

flavicon
face
Martin Green wrote:
>     Very funny!! You know, I deleted the original message so fast I didn't
>     even see the hilarious 'red flag' about sending an 'address
>     verification' such as a phone bill...

It's really hilarious.  We got dinged by this one by a guy who showed up
with a Consumer's Gas uniform and look alike badge who *had* a photocopy of
our bill and asked to sign to "keep getting the same great service that
we're used to from Consumer's Gas".

We found out about it because of a letter Consumer's Gas sent.  Now we're
stuck with Fred's Gas and Litter Box Cleaning Service and there's nothing we
can do about it for five years.

Hopefully, we won't have a problem...


Hey folks, here's a good suggestion to eliminating the SPAM problem on the
PICList - IGNORE IT!

I count 24 replies to the original note asking to "remove", how to sabotage
the spammer and how to protect ourselves.

I would argue that the spam is only 4% of the problem, we're 96% (I'm
including myself in this because I've actually sent two notes on this one
now telling people to just ignore the original note).

myke

"In this life we all get an equal share of ice.  The rich get it in the
summer, the poor get it in the winter." - Bat Masterson's last words

1998\06\03@114853 by eslight

picon face
Problem is that there's always new people comming on the net or
the mailing list each day that don't have a clue about all this,
so the ignore thing won't work.  Until they regulate the internate
and you get a permit to surf (permit as in you got technical course
on how to send email, stop asking "stupid questions" (South park quote:
"Remember, there's no stupid questions, just stupid people :)), and
they get ethic courses... we won't stop it.

And since we don't want those permit or anything close to that...




myke predko wrote:
{Quote hidden}

--
-----------------------------------------------
Eric Slight          E-mail: spam_OUTeslightspamspammatrox.com

DigiSuite SQA Specialist.
Video Production Group, Matrox Electronics Inc.
Dorval, Quebec (Canada).
-----------------------------------------------

'[OT] Re[2]: DEBT MANAGEMENT CLUB MESSAGE EXPLAINED'
1998\06\03@122955 by Martin Green

flavicon
face
    Yep, my wife got hit the same way in 1992. I came home and she told me
    we were going to get a rebate on our gas from Consumers Gas and handed
    me the Direct Energy literature. I had just heard reports of this scam
    on the news, so I knew what had just happened.  I immediately called
    Direct Energy (the same day) and blasted them, telling them I was wise
    to their deception, I was ready to call the police and my lawyer I was
    so angry, and I wouldn't use them as my gas supplier if they were the
    only way on earth to get natural gas. The woman on the phone assured
    me they wouldn't process my 'agreement' and Consumers Gas would remain
    my supplier.

    Imagine my surprise about 6 months ago when Consumers sent me that
    infamous letter saying 'Our records show that your gas supplier is..."
    guess who?  That's right - DIRECT ENERGY, ever since 1992. Consumers
    told me the only way to get them to supply my gas again was to notify
    Direct Energy I was canceling.  Despite HOURS waiting on automated
    voice mail, I was totally unable to contact anyone about canceling my
    account, even after leaving a message telling them if they didn't
    contact me in 7 days I would contact my lawyer.

    Imagine my further amusement when I talked to my father who lives in
    St. Catharines (I live in Toronto) a month ago, and he asked me if I
    had ever heard of Direct Energy.  Seems he handed over his gas bill to
    a 'Consumers Gas' employee in 1994, and just found out his gas has
    been coming from Direct Energy ever since. Surprise, surprise...
    although he had managed to talk to a real person at Direct Energy and
    they had promised to send him a copy of his contract, after 2 months
    it had still not arrived. Now he wondered if I could do anything about
    it since Direct Energy are headquartered in Toronto, where I live.

    Anyway, I finally managed to reach someone from Direct Energy a few
    weeks ago and got them to fax and snail mail me copies of both my
    father's and my supply contract. With that in hand, my father called
    to cancel his contract, and was told he must notify them in writing,
    after which HE MUST WAIT 4 MONTHS before the contract will be
    terminated. Having to give 4 months notice of cancellation of a
    contract that was obtained fraudulently really gets my goat.

    BTW - do you think either my father or I ever saw one penny of the
    promised rebates we were supposed to receive at the end of every year?
    You are right, not one red cent!

    As an interesting twist, I recently went back to work at Consumers Gas
    on contract (I am an independent software developer), and I am working
    on developing their GasCon system which tracks... wait for it... Gas
    Marketer contracts, including Direct Energy. Unfortunately, it doesn't
    make it any easier for me to nail Direct Energy.

    Get ready to dance this number one more time. They are now
    deregulating the supply of electricity in Ontario, and the news is
    reporting that electricity marketers are presenting themselves as
    agents of Toronto Hydro and telling people that if they turn over a
    recent electricity bill, they will get a rebate on their electricity
    bills. Sound familiar?

    The moral of this story is, if ANYONE asks you for a copy of a utility
    bill, a credit card bill, or a bank statement... RUN! There is almost
    NO legitimate reason someone would need this. Think about it, why
    would your gas company need you to supply them with a copy of your gas
    bill?


    CIAO - Martin.


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: DEBT MANAGEMENT CLUB MESSAGE EXPLAINED
Author:  pic microcontroller discussion list <PICLISTspam_OUTspamRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU> at
Internet
Date:    6/3/98 11:21 AM


Martin Green wrote:
>     Very funny!! You know, I deleted the original message so fast I didn't
>     even see the hilarious 'red flag' about sending an 'address
>     verification' such as a phone bill...

It's really hilarious.  We got dinged by this one by a guy who showed up
with a Consumer's Gas uniform and look alike badge who *had* a photocopy of
our bill and asked to sign to "keep getting the same great service that
we're used to from Consumer's Gas".

We found out about it because of a letter Consumer's Gas sent.  Now we're
stuck with Fred's Gas and Litter Box Cleaning Service and there's nothing we
can do about it for five years.

Hopefully, we won't have a problem...


Hey folks, here's a good suggestion to eliminating the SPAM problem on the
PICList - IGNORE IT!

I count 24 replies to the original note asking to "remove", how to sabotage
the spammer and how to protect ourselves.

I would argue that the spam is only 4% of the problem, we're 96% (I'm
including myself in this because I've actually sent two notes on this one
now telling people to just ignore the original note).

myke

"In this life we all get an equal share of ice.  The rich get it in the
summer, the poor get it in the winter." - Bat Masterson's last words

'Receipt of 6/3/98 11:19 PM message'
1998\06\04@121105 by Krueger, Ted

flavicon
face
Re:Re: DS1307 ON SERIAL PORT

'Moving Message Display'
1998\06\09@190003 by Thomas McGahee

flavicon
face
Pedro,
How long does your message have to be? You are limited
in the amount of RAM available on the PIC, but you can
augment that by storing the stuff in shift registers
or even standard RAM chips. I have built LED displays
that use a PIC to shift column data to the left. Each
PIC controls three banks of data that consist of 7
rows and 6 columns. Each bank thus accounts
for a 5x7 character plus inter-character spacing.
Altogether each PIC controls 7 rows by 24 columns.
Data is displayed 3 columns at a time, so duty cycle
is close to 1/8. The number of columns is limited by the
available RAM in the PIC. I needed a few registers
to hold system variables.  :)

One of the tricks that I use is to latch
two of the columns and the row select bits and then
put the last column out direct (not latched).
That saves me one set of latches.
I use 74373 style tristate latches. I drive
standard size LEDs.

Data is received over a single pin serial line and
transmitted over a second single pin serial line. This
allows me to connect the "output" of one PIC driver module to the
"input" of the next. Currently I use a portable PC to
input the data to the first (rightmost) Pic driver module.

Input data is received as 8 bit data and stored in a
file register. Every time new data comes in, the data
is "bumped" or moved to the file register to the "left".
When data is bumped out of the "leftmost" register,
I send it in serial format to the PIC module to the
left of the current pic module. I use a single system
clock that drives all the PIC modules.

Modules can be added pretty much indefinitely as long
as you buffer the clock occassionally.

Instead of using standard serial UART routines, I used a
self-clocking scheme that allows a large range of
baud rates. The PC communicates in serial mode, but using
a bit from the PCs parallel port. My reason was simply
so that I could control the self-clocking. One bit
of the parallel port was used as an input. This allowed
me to send clocking and other handshake info to the PC so it
could operate at maximum speed.

The PC would output serial data in self-clocking fashion
to the rightmost PIC. The MSB of the 8 bit data was used to
indicate that control rather than data was being sent.
This allowed me to send instructions such as Clear All LEDs
to the entire string of PIC modules. Each PIC would
simply relay these commands when they received them.
I wrote up a program in Foxpro that allows me to create
custom characters up to 7x8. This program then created
a memory map that allows me to decode any ascii character
to its visual components. To make the display capable of
handling more characters I use the MSB to indicate when
a character is finished. I usually include one blank
column as a separator for characters. Thus a character
like "i" will occupy less width than the character "W".
In other words, the technique allows proportional fonts.

I prepare the text that I want displayed in a text file.
Then I run the PC program that loads the desired font
set, decodes the characters, and sends the column data
to the first PIC. Scrolling speed is software adjustable,
and provision is made to use multiple font sets within a
single message. Once a message is completely sent I send
out a string of spaces and send the message out again and
again.

This all works fairly well, is easy to understand and
implement on a 16C84, and has a reasonable parts count.
The biggest expense is all the LEDs. If you use the newer
super-bright LEDs you will pay more, but you can move the
LEDs further apart and get a really large display that
is visible for reasonable distances.

Hope this helps.
Fr. Tom McGahee

----------
{Quote hidden}

1998\06\09@224309 by Regulus Berdin

flavicon
face
> From: Thomas McGahee <KILLspamtom_mcgaheespam_OUTspamspam_OUTSIGMAIS.COM>
> One of the tricks that I use is to latch
> two of the columns and the row select bits and then
> put the last column out direct (not latched).
> That saves me one set of latches.
> I use 74373 style tristate latches. I drive
> standard size LEDs.

I had built before a similar display but I had used 74164
which had no tristate.  What I did was to turn-off
momentarily the scanning column during shifting of data.
All 74164s are cascaded so only 2 pins (CLK and DATA)
are used for inputs and 7 for scanning.  I had to use
'164 because it is the only available at the local store.
It was made with a 6805 micro.


> Data is received over a single pin serial line and
> transmitted over a second single pin serial line. This
> allows me to connect the "output" of one PIC driver module to the
> "input" of the next. Currently I use a portable PC to
> input the data to the first (rightmost) Pic driver module.

Before I made the 6805 interface I used a PC to test the
display module using its parallel port. I made the test
program using qbasic using graphics mode for the character
generation.


> I wrote up a program in Foxpro that allows me to create
> custom characters up to 7x8.

I used Excel to map the characters by putting '1' on the
cells and making the column width smaller so it may look
like a 5x7 char.  Custom chars are easily made this way
and no other programming is needed only by just making the
right formula.


Rgds,
Reggie

1998\06\10@151736 by Pedro Barrios

flavicon
face
Tom,

>How long does your message have to be?

My message is pretty short, probably no more than 20 characters.


>Altogether each PIC controls 7 rows by 24 columns.

How did you manage to control 24 columns? Are you using a decoder here?

>One of the tricks that I use is to latch
>two of the columns and the row select bits and then
>put the last column out direct (not latched).
>That saves me one set of latches.
>I use 74373 style tristate latches. I drive
>standard size LEDs.

       ^
       |
How is this saving you a set of latches?


WOW ! impressive ! This is far too advanced for what I want
to do. I content myself with putting the message directly
in the source code; at least for now :)

Thanks,

Pedro


{Quote hidden}

1998\06\10@151741 by Pedro Barrios

flavicon
face
Hi Reggie,

I'm also using Excel the way you describe it. I, however,
don't understand how a formula can be used to generate
a message.

Would you please explain me a little bit more about this?

Thanks,

Pedro

{Quote hidden}

1998\06\24@085739 by Lee Hewitt

picon face
Hello All,
            I wonder if anyone could possibly help me to find any information
on constructing a  Moving Message Display project.  I have seen postings on
the subject recently but I am looking for an actual project with schematic and
component listings which I use to actually construct a working unit.  An LED
matrix display which can be extended is what I am looking for.
    I thought that perhaps someone on the list may have seen such a project
as an electronic magazine article.

Many thanks for any help.

Lee Hewitt (Manchester ENGLAND)


===================================================
Lee Hewitt
Manchester ENGLAND

Home      E-Mail:  @spam@LHewitt104spamspamspam_OUTaol.com
University E-Mail:  KILLspamL.HewittspamKILLspameee.salford.ac.uk
===================================================

1998\06\24@204541 by TONY NIXON 54964

flavicon
picon face
Have a look at my web site below, specifically the Ol' Timer clock.

Tony


PicNPoke Multimedia 16F84 Beginners PIC Tools.

**PLUS** - PicNPlay - PicNPlan - PicNPrep - PicNPost
PicNPort - DT Type Saver - *new* PicNQuiz.
Recent addition - Hex To Source converter.

http://www.picnpoke.com
Email KILLspampicnpokespamspamspamcdi.com.au


'[OT] Bounce messages (was Re: PIC programming timi'
1998\08\12@234916 by Eric Smith
flavicon
face
Dmitry Kiryashov <zewsKILLspamspam.....AHA.RU> wrote:
> Peoples! Let us kill this robot! :(
[lengthy quote of X.400 bounce message deleted]

I put it in my .procmailrc file when it first started happening, so I've
only seen a few of them.  Here's my entry:

   # Worthless bounce messages some luser on the PICLIST
   :0:
   * ^From:.*Claudio Rachiele IW0DZG
   /dev/null

I'm amazed that the problem hasn't been fixed yet.

Of course, the problem isn't really Claudio's fault, it is the fault of
the bozo that configured the machine on which Claudio formerly received his
email; that machine is using the wrong header to decide where to send the
bounce messages.  [X.400 is evil!]  And perhaps to a lesser extent the fault
of the mailing list software on MITVMA; modern mailing list software such as
SmartList can detect this condition.

I offered years ago to host the PIC mailing list on a machine that can
run decent list software with spam, bounce, and unsubscribe filtering,
and I'm still willing to do so.  However, there was a resounding lack of
interest.

1998\08\14@002325 by Claudio Rachiele IW0DZG

flavicon
face
                  Status Distribution August 13, 1998 03:44:52

The message regarding "[OT] Bounce messages (was Re: PIC programming timing [OT])" sent on August 13, 1998 03:44:52 was sent by

Status Recipient
         Type                To
         Native Name         PICLISTspamBeGonespamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
         Foreign Native Name PICLISTspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU\n\n\nINTERNET



Recipients

Status Reporters
         Type                From
         Initials            CR
         Name Domain         NOTES
         Native Name         CN=Claudio Rachiele IW0DZG/OU=Italy/O=IBM@IBMIT
         Foreign Native Name CN=Claudio Rachiele IW0DZG/OU=Italy/O=IBM\nIBMIT\n\n
         Organization        IBM
         Org Unit 1          Italy
         Last Name           IW0DZG
         First Name          Claudio



Status          769
Explanation     Invalid recipient

X.400 Status    769
Explanation     Router: Unable to open mailbox file D14HUBM1/14/H/IBM mail.box: Remote system no longer responding

'Lots of new messages'
1998\08\14@100137 by Martin Green

flavicon
face
    Wow! a hundred new postings overnight. I wonder how many of them are
    robot bounces from Claudio's account?


    Morning all - Martin.

'Duplicate messages on PICLIST?'
1998\08\24@105031 by Martin Green

flavicon
face
    Is anyone besides me getting duplicates of much (but not all) of the
    PICLIST mail traffic? It started a couple of days ago.


    Martin.

1998\08\24@122526 by Fehrenbach, Robert J

flavicon
face
From:
        Martin Green <.....Martin_GreenRemoveMEspamKILLspamCONSUMERSGAS.COM>

    Is anyone besides me getting duplicates of much (but not all) of
the
    PICLIST mail traffic? It started a couple of days ago.


I sent a post this morning and got back a bounce message so I resent it.
Got a second bounce message.
Seems that both were actually received and posted to the list.

I looked back at the 'failed mail' message and noticed the following
that I had missed:

TO:     TakeThisOuTbillKILLspamspam.....GRENDEL.PARTYLINE.NET <billspam_OUTspamspamBeGoneGRENDEL.PARTYLINE.NET>
[552 Requested mail operation aborted: Cannot be routed.]

Perhaps a few others had the same experience and resent a message.

1998\08\24@142245 by WF AUTOMACAO

flavicon
face
Martin Green wrote:
>
>      Is anyone besides me getting duplicates of much (but not all) of the
>      PICLIST mail traffic? It started a couple of days ago.
>
>      Martin.

I did have the same problem!

Miguel

1998\08\24@144000 by Michael Hagberg

flavicon
face
no i am not receiving duplicates

look very carefully at the header detail of two of the messages and find the
your email address. if they are not the same, unsubscribe from one of them.
i had the same problem when my mail program was set from mail.whatever.net
to just whatever.net

michael

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Green <Martin_Green.....spam@spam@CONSUMERSGAS.COM>
To: @spam@PICLISTspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU <spam_OUTPICLISTspamBeGonespamspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Monday, August 24, 1998 9:54 AM
Subject: Duplicate messages on PICLIST?


>     Is anyone besides me getting duplicates of much (but not all) of the
>     PICLIST mail traffic? It started a couple of days ago.
>
>
>     Martin.
>

1998\08\24@150801 by Mike Ghormley

flavicon
face
Fehrenbach, Robert J wrote:

> I looked back at the 'failed mail' message and noticed the following
> that I had missed:
>
> TO:     billRemoveMEspamTakeThisOuTGRENDEL.PARTYLINE.NET <TakeThisOuTbillKILLspamspamGRENDEL.PARTYLINE.NET>
> [552 Requested mail operation aborted: Cannot be routed.]
>
> Perhaps a few others had the same experience and resent a message.

I sent a message to RemoveMEpostmasterTakeThisOuTspamspamGRENDEL.PARTYLINE.NET last night
apprising them of the problem.  I have not heard back yet.

Michael

*************************************************************************When th
e way of the Tao is forgotten, kindness and ethics must be taught.
Men must learn to pretend to be wise and good.  --  Lao Tzu
*************************************************************************

1998\08\25@021833 by White Horse Design

flavicon
face
At 12:01 24/08/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Fehrenbach, Robert J wrote:
>
>> I looked back at the 'failed mail' message and noticed the following
>> that I had missed:
>>
>> TO:     .....bill@spam@spamspamBeGoneGRENDEL.PARTYLINE.NET <STOPspambillTakeThisOuTspamGRENDEL.PARTYLINE.NET>
>> [552 Requested mail operation aborted: Cannot be routed.]

I've had a few of these too.

Regards

Adrian
---
WWW    WWW   Adrian Gothard
WWW WW WWW   White Horse Design
WWWWWWWWWW   +44-385-970009 (Mobile/SMS), +44-118-962-8913/4 (voice/fax)
WWWW  WWWW   TakeThisOuTwhd@spam@spamzetnet.co.uk, http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/whd
---
Developers of GPS satellite-based tracking systems for vehicles/helicopters


'Receipt of 9/16/98 7:16 AM message'
1998\09\16@093449 by Krueger, Ted
flavicon
face
Re:Re: I Know for Sure I Can't Download PIC Data Sheets.

'Receipt of 9/18/98 7:08 AM message'
1998\09\18@094243 by Krueger, Ted

flavicon
face
Re:Re: PIC16c5X simulators

'Receipt of 9/25/98 8:35 AM message'
1998\09\25@100814 by Krueger, Ted

flavicon
face
Re:Re: 24VDC to 5VDC Supply - Slightly [OT]


'Receipt of 10/23/98 7:49 AM message'
1998\10\23@121421 by Krueger, Ted
flavicon
face
Re:Re: Speedometer Project

'Receipt of 10/26/98 4:07 PM message'
1998\10\26@174522 by Krueger, Ted

flavicon
face
Re:Re: PIC16C84 problem, again

'Receipt of 10/26/98 2:52 PM message'
1998\10\26@174731 by Krueger, Ted

flavicon
face
Re:Re: (OT) AC Signal Control

'Receipt of 10/26/98 1:45 PM message'
1998\10\27@154748 by Krueger, Ted

flavicon
face
Re:Re: [OT] More Power Switching Info

'Receipt of 10/28/98 12:29 PM message'
1998\10\28@093252 by Krueger, Ted

flavicon
face
Re:Re: A/D converter problem

'Receipt of 10/28/98 4:11 PM message'
1998\10\28@131753 by Krueger, Ted

flavicon
face
Re:Re: Strobes

'Hey! turn off your message acknowledgement!'
1998\10\30@030914 by Brian Watson

flavicon
face
Hi All

I am very sorry for the flood of acknowledgement messages you have all had
on my account.  I have now turned OFF the "Tell me when all messages have
been read" option.

Brian

{Original Message removed}

1998\10\30@040557 by brad

flavicon
face
Brian Watson wrote:
>
> Hi All
>
> I am very sorry for the flood of acknowledgement messages you have all had
> on my account.  I have now turned OFF the "Tell me when all messages have
> been read" option.
>
> Brian

Actually, I was using Eudora, and it always give me the choice to send
an ack now, later or never.
I figured by always sending one to you, it might prompt you to turn that
feature off ;p)

--
-----------------------------------
Brad Campbell
Technical Manager

Seme Electrical Engineering Co
59 Collingwood St Osborne Park 6017
Western Australia
Ph    :-+61 8 9445 2577
Fax   :-+61 8 9244 1327
Email :- EraseMEbradEraseMEspamseme.com.au

 /"\
 \ /
  X  ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN
 / \ AGAINST HTML MAIL

'Receipt of 10/29/98 10:37 AM message'
1998\10\30@063651 by Krueger, Ted

flavicon
face
Re:Re: [OT] Pushbutton toggle

'Hey! turn off your message acknowledgement!'
1998\10\30@073135 by tjaart

flavicon
face
Brad Campbell wrote:

>   /"\
>   \ /
>    X  ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN
>   / \ AGAINST HTML MAIL

This is a really good idea! I think I'll join the cam*pain*

--
Friendly Regards            /"\
                           \ /
Tjaart van der Walt          X ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN
tjaartTakeThisOuTspamKILLspamwasp.co.za    / \ AGAINST HTML MAIL

|--------------------------------------------------|
|                WASP International                |
|R&D Engineer : GSM peripheral services development|
|--------------------------------------------------|
|SMS tjaartspamBeGonespamspamsms.wasp.co.za  (160 chars max)|
|     http://www.wasp.co.za/~tjaart/index.html     |
|Voice: +27-(0)11-622-8686  Fax: +27-(0)11-622-8973|
|          WGS-84 : 26¡10.52'S 28¡06.19'E          |
|--------------------------------------------------|


'Messages'
1998\11\01@094226 by ke
flavicon
face
part 0 520 bytes
<META content=text/html;charset=iso-8859-1 http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META content='"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=GENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>I wonder why I don`t get any messages from
PICLIST?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>&Aring;ke Neehr</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

</x-html>

'rejecting messages. How come?'
1998\11\07@142818 by Eduardo R.

flavicon
face
Is someone else experiencing this problem?
My message has been rejected since yesterday.

'Rejecting all messages'
1998\11\09@003332 by Eduardo R.

flavicon
face
All messages I send to the list are sent back. Not deliverable

Return-Path: <RemoveMEAdministrator.....spamTWN-EL.ccgw.nec.co.jp>
From: Administrator.....spam.....TWN-EL.ccgw.nec.co.jp
To: spam_OUTeriveraEraseMEspam.....UMEMPHIS.CAMPUS.MCI.NET
Subject: Message not deliverable
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 13:00:00 +0900

Not deliverable to: George Hwang at TWN-EL
----------------------------------- Returned -----------------------------------
From: EraseMEeriveraKILLspamspamspamUMEMPHIS.CAMPUS.MCI.NET at MIME
Date: 11/8/98 10:52PM
To: George Hwang at TWN-EL
*To: RemoveMEPICLISTSTOPspamspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU at MIME
Subject: Demostration Boards PICDEM
.

" Happy of those who fears The Lord "
                    Humbleness is the clue.
         ________  ________  ________
        /         /       / /       /
       /_____    /_______/ /_______/
      /         /  \      / \
     /________ /    \    /   \
     ICQ# 10909825   \_ /     \___________
     spam_OUTeriveraspamspamRemoveMEumemphis.campus.mci.net

1998\11\09@041133 by Morgan Olsson

picon face
At 23:33 1998-11-08 -0600, you wrote:
> All messages I send to the list are sent back. Not deliverable
>
>Return-Path: <spamBeGoneAdministratorEraseMEspamTWN-EL.ccgw.nec.co.jp>

Same to me, and probably all piclist writers, or is it only some?

Probably that PICLIST subscriber at @TWN-EL.ccgw.nec.co.jp has vanished
vithout subscribing, and the mail server @TWN-EL.ccgw.nec.co.jp is sending
us the delivery problem notes.  At least a copy should go to their human
administrator.

So we have to tell him ourselves about the problem, and how to unsubscribe:
write to

TakeThisOuTPostmaster.....spamTakeThisOuTTWN-EL.ccgw.nec.co.jp


An alternative is that the PICLIST administrator unsubscribes them.

I have also recieved error responses from @FB.PNEM.NL

/Morgan


>From: AdministratorspamBeGonespamTWN-EL.ccgw.nec.co.jp
>To: erivera@spam@spamUMEMPHIS.CAMPUS.MCI.NET
>Subject: Message not deliverable
>Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 13:00:00 +0900
>
>Not deliverable to: George Hwang at TWN-EL
>----------------------------------- Returned
-----------------------------------
{Quote hidden}

       Morgan Olsson                   ph  +46(0)414 70741
       MORGANS REGLERTEKNIK            fax +46(0)414 70331
       H€LLEKS           (in A-Z letters: "HALLEKAS")
       SE-277 35 KIVIK, SWEDEN               RemoveMEmrtTakeThisOuTspaminame.com
___________________________________________________________

1998\11\09@085057 by paulb

flavicon
face
Morgan Olsson wrote:

> Same to me, and probably all piclist writers, or is it only some?

 Oooooohhhh yes!

> Probably that PICLIST subscriber at @TWN-EL.ccgw.nec.co.jp has
> vanished vithout subscribing, and the mail server
> @TWN-EL.ccgw.nec.co.jp is sending us the delivery problem notes.  At
> least a copy should go to their human administrator.

 Presumably.  They may look once in a month or so?
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

1998\11\09@121846 by Michael Hagberg

flavicon
face
these messages are NOT from the listserver. they are messages from other
users of the list. whenever i post to the server i normally get a couple of
these messages from different users each time.

this is what happens.  your message is mailed to the list server. the list
server then emails a copy to almost 1700 members. Of all those messages some
are going to be undeliverable. When an email is undeliverable a message is
returned to the sender notify of the failure to deliver. That is the message
you are receiving.

michael

You may leave the list at any time by writing "SIGNOFF PICLIST" in the
   body of a message to RemoveMELISTSERVspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU.

{Original Message removed}

'[OT] Please Ignore Bounced Messages If ...'
1998\11\09@234103 by James Cameron

flavicon
face
Craig Webb wrote:
> I'm sending this again because it bounced back.

No, it didn't.  The bounce was secondary rather than primary.  Check the
source of the bounce; if it's within the mit.edu domain of the list
address then you may assume it was a primary bounce.  The current set of
bounces are secondary, and do not mean you should send again.


       you     -->     server  -->     everybody

        ^                                  |
        \----------------------------------/


Pet hate number two: quoting the entire message you are responding to
without editing down to remove superfluous stuff.  This costs everybody
more time in the long run.

--
James Cameron                                      (KILLspamcameronspamspamspam_OUTstl.dec.com)

OpenVMS, Linux, Firewalls, Software Engineering, CGI, HTTP, X, C, FORTH,
COBOL, BASIC, DCL, csh, bash, ksh, sh, Electronics, Microcontrollers,
Disability Engineering, Netrek, Bicycles, Pedant, Farming, Home Control,
Remote Area Power, Greek Scholar, Tenor Vocalist, Church Sound, Husband.

"Specialisation is for insects." -- Robert Heinlein.

1998\11\10@075832 by paulb

flavicon
face
James Cameron wrote:

> Craig Webb wrote:
>> I'm sending this again because it bounced back.
> No, it didn't.  The bounce was secondary rather than primary.
> Check the source of the bounce; if it's within the mit.edu domain of
> the list address then you may assume it was a primary bounce.  The
> current set of bounces are secondary, and do not mean you should send
> again.

 This one is getting to stick in my craw too.  It's bad enough when
people can't look and find where a "bounce" is coming from, but what
gets me is - it doesn't matter anyway.

 Just *what* quirk of psychosis, I must ask, makes people think that if
something comes back as "not deliverable", they should *send it again*?

 Please - if something happens on your e-mail and you don't know why,
ask someone who *knows what they are doing*!  (Variant of: RTFM)

 Remember the old comedy sketch when the comedian steps on the rake and
the handle flips up and hits him in the face - then he staggers back,
disoriented, recovers his senses, walks forward and steps on the rake
again?

 Debugging programs must be a fascinating experience as practiced by
some - if we could only watch!
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

1998\11\10@113821 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Tue, 10 Nov 1998, Paul B. Webster VK2BZC wrote:

>   Just *what* quirk of psychosis, I must ask, makes people think that if
> something comes back as "not deliverable", they should *send it again*?

How else can you start a mail loop ? At least they are trying hard. Not
hard enough, yet, however. Sheesh.

>   Please - if something happens on your e-mail and you don't know why,
> ask someone who *knows what they are doing*!  (Variant of: RTFM)

You mean ask / announce on the list ? But they do ! They all post messages
to the list saying that their messages to the list are bouncing.

>   Remember the old comedy sketch when the comedian steps on the rake and
> the handle flips up and hits him in the face - then he staggers back,
> disoriented, recovers his senses, walks forward and steps on the rake
> again?

Yes, yes, yes, that's the idea. Learning by repetition. Then, of course,
there are those who get to really like it and keep up the practice on
other lists too. I know a few. I have also heard of people who do it in
real reality, with a real rake, they like it so much.

>   Debugging programs must be a fascinating experience as practiced by
> some - if we could only watch!

These guys are in the club with the motto 'bug fixing brings no revenue'.
This is an excuse for practicing the bouncing which they like so much,
of course.

Now, if you know who had the largest volume of postings to the list last
time counted, and know that each posting brings one or two bounces and has
been on for the last week or so, CAN YOU TELL WHY I AM GETTING REALLY
PISSED OFF ?

Peter

1998\11\10@181319 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
Peter L. Peres wrote:
>
> On Tue, 10 Nov 1998, Paul B. Webster VK2BZC wrote:
> <snipped a bit>
> >   Remember the old comedy sketch when the comedian steps on the rake and
> > the handle flips up and hits him in the face - then he staggers back,
> > disoriented, recovers his senses, walks forward and steps on the rake
> > again?
>
> Yes, yes, yes, that's the idea. Learning by repetition. Then, of course,
> there are those who get to really like it and keep up the practice on
> other lists too. I know a few. I have also heard of people who do it in
> real reality, with a real rake, they like it so much.

 "The good thing about beating your head against the wall is, it feels
SO good when you quit", folks!  <G>

 Mark, spammwillis.....spamTakeThisOuTnwlink.com

'Test message - Do not read'
1998\11\16@155321 by Ohtsji, Randie

flavicon
face
       Test

1998\11\17@034115 by Dr. Imre Bartfai

flavicon
face
I'm sorry, but I have read.

Imre

On Mon, 16 Nov 1998, Ohtsji, Randie wrote:

>         Test
>
>

1998\11\17@121543 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Tue, 17 Nov 1998, Dr. Imre Bartfai wrote:

> I'm sorry, but I have read.
>
> Imre

Then, why did you tell us, all of 1600 of us ? Is there really no chance
that troll/oops answerers learn something eventually ?

Peter

> On Mon, 16 Nov 1998, Ohtsji, Randie wrote:
>
> >         Test

1998\11\17@170510 by Mark

flavicon
face
This is a test; please ignore.


Mark Hillier
President, HVW Technologies
Mark@spam@spamspam_OUTHVWTech.com
Tel:(403)730-8603 Fax:(403)730-8903
Visit our web site: http://www.hvwtech.com

'Piclist error messages'
1998\11\19@013223 by Scott Newell

flavicon
face
I keep getting kicked off the piclist.

Apparently, my ISP's mail server has been sending errors to the listserv.
Something like 16 errors in the last week.

Does anyone know a way to retrieve these error messages?  I've got the last
error message, "Mailer   smtp2.CEI.NET  said:  "551<STOPspamnewellspamCEI.NET>... we
do not relay", but it would help convince my sysadmin if I could show him a
stack of errors that _his_ mail server is generating.

I've read through the refcard, but I couldn't find anything helpful.


newell

'[OT] old messages'
1998\11\19@170119 by Reginald Neale

flavicon
face
Anybody else getting repeats of messages one and two weeks old? Half my
mailbox today was old messages.

Reg

1998\11\19@171754 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
Yeah, same here.

Sean

At 09:59 PM 11/19/98 GMT, you wrote:
>Anybody else getting repeats of messages one and two weeks old? Half my
>mailbox today was old messages.
>
>Reg
>
+-------------------------------+
| Sean Breheny                  |
| Amateur Radio Callsign: KA3YXM|
| Electrical Engineering Student|
+-------------------------------+
Save lives, please look at http://www.all.org
Personal page: http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/shb7
EraseMEshb7spam_OUTspamcornell.edu  Phone(USA): (607) 253-0315 ICQ #: 3329174

1998\11\19@183050 by cousens

flavicon
face
Sean Breheny wrote:
>
> Yeah, same here.

Seems like we're all getting them !
A quick look at the headers reveals
the date changes around here.

Received:from PickupDirectory by gateway2.teracom.se with SMTP
(Microsoft
               Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2232.9) id
XCMAMMJA;
               Thu, 19 Nov 1998 19:08:47 +0100

Is someone playing around or is it a bug in Bill(small & limp)Gates's
software ?

--
Peter Cousens
email: cousensKILLspamspamspamher.forthnet.gr  phone: + 3081 380534
snailmail:  Folia, Agia Fotini, Karteros, Heraklion  Crete, Greece.

We cannot blame God for creating a World with so many problems,
He had just upgraded from win3.11 to win95.
No wonder Eve recommended Apple.

'test message-please ignore'
1998\11\20@014435 by Jeff Jolie

flavicon
face
part 0 313 bytes
<META content=text/html;charset=iso-8859-1 http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META content='"MSHTML 4.72.3510.1400"' name=GENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>testing 123</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

</x-html>

1998\11\20@015054 by Jeff Jolie

flavicon
face
part 0 313 bytes
<META content=text/html;charset=iso-8859-1 http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META content='"MSHTML 4.72.3510.1400"' name=GENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>testing 456</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

</x-html>

'[OT] old messages'
1998\11\20@070607 by Caisson

flavicon
face
> Van: Reginald Neale <TakeThisOuTnealeKILLspamspamSERVTECH.COM>
> Aan: spamPICLIST.....spam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Onderwerp: [OT] old messages
> Datum: donderdag 19 november 1998 22:59
>
> Anybody else getting repeats of messages one and two weeks old? Half my
> mailbox today was old messages.
>
> Reg

Yes.  Some mailer seems to have been Stuck for about 14 day's (See Below)

Greetz,
 Rudy Wieser


By the way : The massage is coming from "below" and crawling "up" thru the
list.

<Snip>

Received: from gateway2.teracom.se [193.12.205.1] by mitvma.mit.edu (IBM VM
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X-Comment: mitvma.mit.edu: Mail was sent by gateway2.teracom.se

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         Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2232.9) id XCMAMM7V;
Thu,
         19 Nov 1998 21:05:54 +0100

-- Here it got stuck for som reason or another --
Maybe someone can tell us more ?

Received: from segate.sunet.se (192.36.125.16) by SEGATE.SUNET.SE (LSMTP
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         OpenVMS v1.1a) with SMTP id <spam_OUT12.F5252D1FspamspamSEGATE.SUNET.SE>; Thu, 5
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         NJE id 4011 for EraseMEPICLISTspamBeGonespamMITVMA.MIT.EDU; Thu, 5 Nov 1998 16:11:40
-0500

<Snip>

1998\11\20@082116 by John Sanderson

flavicon
face
Hello PIC.ers,
..
Yes, great heaps & buckets of'm.
Today's repeats have mostly originated 6 Nov or 13 Nov.
..
>Date:    Thu, 19 Nov 1998 21:59:22 GMT
>From:    Reginald Neale <EraseMEnealespam_OUTspamspamSERVTECH.COM>
>Subject: [OT] old messages
>
>Anybody else getting repeats of messages one and two weeks old? Half my
>mailbox today was old messages.
>
>Reg
..
best regards,   John
..
email from John Sanderson at
JS Controls, PO Box 1887, Boksburg 1460, Rep. South Africa
Manufacturer & purveyor of laboratory force testing apparatus
and related products and services.
Tel/fax: Johannesburg 893 4154    Cellphone 082 453 4815

1998\11\20@083335 by Mike Sauve

flavicon
face
I've contacted the postmaster at teracom.se, and he is currently working on corr
ecting the problem. Their Microsloth Exchange server had recently crashed, so it
appears to be working as designed.

Mike

1998\11\20@085428 by Paul BRITTON

flavicon
face
It would appear that somewhere, there is a mail server that is bouncing
mail messages back to the 'REPLY TO:' address, which of course get
re-distributed to everyone, does anyone know if the list server has any
mechanism to prevent this from continuing??

1998\11\21@075028 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Fri, 20 Nov 1998, Mike Sauve wrote:

> I've contacted the postmaster at teracom.se, and he is currently working
> on correcting the problem. Their Microsloth Exchange server had recently
> crashed, so it appears to be working as designed.
>
> Mike

What bugs me is, if an exchange server keeps many hundreds of messages for
3 weeks and accidentally releases them, what other purposes can this
excellent archiving system be put to ? Makes me wonder where some of the
emails quoted in a certain browser-related lawsuit were spooled, some for
years. The painful point is, there still is no properly indexed up-to-date
piclist archive.

Peter

1998\11\21@132439 by Jurva-Markus Vehasmaa

flavicon
face
Yes, i have been receiving old messages. Just downloaded over 220 message.

Why is this happening?

J.M. Vehasmaa

----------
> From: Reginald Neale <nealespam_OUTspamSERVTECH.COM>
> To: spam_OUTPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: [OT] old messages
> Date: 19. marraskuuta 1998 23:59
>
> Anybody else getting repeats of messages one and two weeks old? Half my
> mailbox today was old messages.
>
> Reg

1998\11\21@170748 by jullmc

flavicon
face
Paul Dartanian has WARN us .

+--------------------------------------------------------+
| 30+ FREE email accounts & more ... http://wowmail.com/ |
| FREE 12Mb multi-page web sites .. http://wowsites.com/ |
+--------------------------------------------------------+

'voice messages'
1998\11\23@184921 by Fernando Santos

flavicon
face
Hello,

Have anyone ideas how I can reproduce voice messages with pic's devices
I think the messages can stored in eeprom's like 24c65.
Apreciate any sugestions.

TakeThisOuTmop18932spammail.telepac.pt

1998\11\23@221029 by foster

flavicon
face
Look at the very interesting sound storage chips at
http://www.isd.com/.
Easy to use, inexpensive, good sound quality.

Foster

1998\11\24@063136 by foster

flavicon
face
Look at the very interesting sound storage chips at http://www.isd.com.
Easy to use, inexpensive, good sound quality.

 Foster


Fernando Santos wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Have anyone ideas how I can reproduce voice messages with pic's devices
> I think the messages can stored in eeprom's like 24c65.
> Apreciate any sugestions.
>
> spammop18932spam_OUTspammail.telepac.pt

1998\11\24@070942 by WF AUTOMACAO

flavicon
face
Fernando Santos wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> Have anyone ideas how I can reproduce voice messages with pic's devices
> I think the messages can stored in eeprom's like 24c65.
> Apreciate any sugestions.
>
> EraseMEmop18932spamspammail.telepac.pt

See my ISDvoice at http://www.furb.rct-sc.br/~mw/isd_i.html or
                  http://www.inf.ufsc.br/~mw/isd_i.html

Miguel

1998\11\24@070945 by WF AUTOMACAO

flavicon
face
Fernando Santos wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> Have anyone ideas how I can reproduce voice messages with pic's devices
> I think the messages can stored in eeprom's like 24c65.
> Apreciate any sugestions.
>
> KILLspammop18932EraseMEspamspam_OUTmail.telepac.pt

Falo em portugus, se quiseres!

Miguel

1998\11\24@102144 by foster

flavicon
face
Fernando,

Look at the very interesting sound storage chips at http://www.isd.com.
Easy to use, inexpensive, good sound quality.

 Foster



Fernando Santos wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Have anyone ideas how I can reproduce voice messages with pic's devices
> I think the messages can stored in eeprom's like 24c65.
> Apreciate any sugestions.
>
> TakeThisOuTmop18932spam_OUTspamspammail.telepac.pt

1998\11\24@171730 by Andy Stephenson

flavicon
face
Microchip do have an app note on ADPCM using a PIC16C63 I think. I have
used and modified the code which I think was based on source from one of
the compression 'standards bodies'. Give it a look. It's in C.

Rgds...


...Andy

At 23:48 23/11/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Hello,
>
>Have anyone ideas how I can reproduce voice messages with pic's devices
>I think the messages can stored in eeprom's like 24c65.
>Apreciate any sugestions.
>
>@spam@mop18932TakeThisOuTspammail.telepac.pt
>

'[OT] to capture print message to disk'
1998\11\25@103434 by Hanafi Tanudjaja

flavicon
face
Can anyone help me with info of equipment/software to capture print message
to disk ?
One terminal which have no disk at all can send it's output to a paralel
centronic
printer.The owner want to have the data not only as  hardcopy but at any
certain time also as files in disk or other kind of memory system.
Is there any software which when we connect this output paralel centronic
cable to
a PC make this PC capture the data ?
Or is there certain equipment for that purpose ?
Please apologize me if this OT bother you

Thanks in advance
Hanafi Tan


'Forwarded Message - FREE Online Training on Intel('
1998\12\02@092320 by Harrison Cooper
flavicon
face
This may be of interest to some here on the list.

{Quote hidden}

'IMPORTANT message !!!!'
1998\12\03@173303 by Goovaerts

flavicon
face
This message is for all the members on the list :

Can somebody, who ownes a C compiler, convert ONE of mine C-files into an
*.asm file and send it back to me ????

If yes, first send you E-mail address to me, then I send you the C file.
This way I don't have to send the entire C code to the list.

Please help me. Its getting pretty urgent. You see, I always work with asm
files and I don't really understand C very well. That's why the asm file is
so important to me !!

Hope to hear from you soon !!!!!

Greetings from Glenn Goovaerts from Belgium !!

1998\12\03@175006 by WF AUTOMACAO

flavicon
face
Goovaerts wrote:
>
> This message is for all the members on the list :
>
> Can somebody, who ownes a C compiler, convert ONE of mine C-files into an
> *.asm file and send it back to me ????
>
> If yes, first send you E-mail address to me, then I send you the C file.
> This way I don't have to send the entire C code to the list.
>
> Please help me. Its getting pretty urgent. You see, I always work with asm
> files and I don't really understand C very well. That's why the asm file is
> so important to me !!
>
> Hope to hear from you soon !!!!!
>
> Greetings from Glenn Goovaerts from Belgium !!

OK, send  me a sample!

I can compile with CCS, HITECH...

Miguel

'How to get last messages from list?'
1998\12\15@092404 by Ken Chang

flavicon
face
Hi, Can somebody tell me how to order the list server send me last
messages?
if I do not wrong, there are comment to do that.

Regards,
Ken Chang.

'Avoid Duplicate Messages (Was: Re: Software contro'
1998\12\22@215521 by James Cameron

flavicon
face
D. Schouten wrote:
> (I'm sorry if this message was posted twice. I received some errors)

Apology accepted, however please read and understand the errors you
received.  If the errors say, and I quote ...

       "Your message to spamPICLISTKILLspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
       did not reach the following recipient(s):
       UNDELIVERABLERemoveMEspamSPEASTECH.COM"

Then this means that your message did not reach one particular address
out of however many we have on the list right now.

The message should also give the reason.  If it says "Unknown
Recipient", chances are that the address on the list doesn't exist any
more, and sending the message again will achieve nothing.

If you enable copies to yourself of what you post, that may help,
because then you will know that it has been delivered by the list
server.  Mail the list server administration address to do that.

--
James Cameron                                      (cameronEraseMEspam@spam@stl.dec.com)

OpenVMS, Linux, Firewalls, Software Engineering, CGI, HTTP, X, C, FORTH,
COBOL, BASIC, DCL, csh, bash, ksh, sh, Electronics, Microcontrollers,
Disability Engineering, Netrek, Bicycles, Pedant, Farming, Home Control,
Remote Area Power, Greek Scholar, Tenor Vocalist, Church Sound, Husband.

"Specialisation is for insects." -- Robert Heinlein.

1998\12\23@021020 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
Note to all:  Jory nuked or will nuke the Speastech bouncer, per my
request <G>  (There's another one coming, probably!)

 Mark, STOPspammwillisTakeThisOuTspam.....nwlink.com

James Cameron wrote:
{Quote hidden}

'Converting PIClist digests to individual messages'
1998\12\28@201044 by Adriano De Minicis

flavicon
face
Hi,

if you receive the PICList as a daily digest, and would like to
extract the individual messages (very useful to follow threads
and/or to search for old messages), read on.

I've just (succesfully) converted last six months of PICList
archived by Netscape Messenger (v4.5).

What do you need to do this:

- A text editor (or any other text file tool) able to search and
 replace strings extending on multiple lines. If you haven't one,
 try the free Programmer's File Editor (PFE), downloadable from:
 http://www.lancs.ac.uk/people/cpaap/pfe/
- Netscape Messenger (I have v4.5, but I think this trick works also
 with other versions). If you have another mailreader this method will
 problably NOT work, but who knows... your mileage may vary...

How to do this:

1) Locate the file containing your piclist digests. You will find
the file in the "Mail" folder of Netscape, the path is probably
something like this:

 C:\Program Files\Netscape\Users\OUR_NAME\Mail\Inbox.sbd\piclist

The file name correspond to the name of the Messenger folder
where you store the piclist.

2) When you have located the file do a backup-copy of it.
3) Load the file in the editor.
4) Go to the start of file (1st line) and then Replace ALL the
occurrence of:
  <------------------------------\n\nDate:    >
With:
  <From -\nDate:    >

NOTE: the "<" and ">" at beginning and end of the string are
not part of the string, I've inserted them to show the spaces
at the end of the string.

NOTE 2: "\n" represent a linefeed (the string extends to more
than one line). This notation can be used directly in the
search & replace dialog of PFE. Other editors may vary.

This step extracts all messages (Messenger wants a "From -" line
before a valid message).

5) Go to the start of file (1st line) and then Replace ALL the
occurrence of:
<Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------"\n>
With:
<>  (null string)

See notes above. This step converts each digest from a multipart message
to a standard message (de-encapsulate messages).

6) Save the file (and to be safe, close all programs, prepare the fire
extinguisher, etc.. in case the next step will crash your PC :-)

7) Launch Messenger and select the piclist folder. If all is OK,
Messenger
will be busy for some time (depending on the number of messages)
reindexing
the folder. If there an error, exit Messenger, go to the directory where
you piclist file is, delete the corresponding index file (it has the
extension .smn), and go back to 7. Maybe this time will work.

Adriano


'Receipt of 1/4/99 3:23 PM message'
1999\01\04@120731 by Krueger, Ted
flavicon
face
Re:Re: MPLAB author e-mail

'Receipt of 1/4/99 3:19 PM message'
1999\01\04@120737 by Krueger, Ted

flavicon
face
Re:Re: Cockroach Detection and Y2K bugs.

'Mis-Directed Message, SORRY!!!'
1999\01\18@170633 by Brian Aase

flavicon
face
I sincerely apologize for sending a binary to the list.  It
was supposed to be a private email message.
I'm sorry for the mixup, it won't happen again.
Brian Aase

'[OT]RE: Mis-Directed Message, SORRY!!!'
1999\01\19@063947 by Michael Rigby-Jones

flavicon
face
You certainly have my pardon.  It was only 53k and I suspect it saved about
99% of the list going to the web site for a very interesting project.  There
seemed to be a lot of interest in it :o)

Mike Rigby-Jones
spamBeGonemrjonesKILLspamspamnortelnetworks.com
{Quote hidden}

'Mis-Directed Message, SORRY!!!'
1999\01\19@063955 by Dr. Imre Bartfai

flavicon
face
Hi,
I am very grateful for you unadvertently sent binary.
Imre


On Mon, 18 Jan 1999, Brian Aase wrote:

> I sincerely apologize for sending a binary to the list.  It
> was supposed to be a private email message.
> I'm sorry for the mixup, it won't happen again.
> Brian Aase
>
>

'[OT]RE: Mis-Directed Message, SORRY!!!'
1999\01\19@065745 by paulb

flavicon
face
Michael Rigby-Jones wrote:

> You certainly have my pardon.  It was only 53k and I suspect it saved
> about 99% of the list going to the web site for a very interesting
> project.  There seemed to be a lot of interest in it :o)

 Hear Hear!
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

'FW: Virus - Warning message'
1999\01\19@220050 by Jorge Ferreira

flavicon
face
>Date: 19 Jan 99 15:39 GMT
>Priority: non-urgent
>P1-Message-ID: pt*mailpac*gtw-ms;EF96A53598AFD211AB5E006097732D79
>Original-Encoded-Information-Types: IA5-Text
>From: Victor Neto <KILLspamvnetospamBeGonespamspamlisbon.continental.mailpac.pt>
>To: KILLspamcamsousaspam_OUTspam.....hotmail.com, spamteresa_almeidaEraseMEspambvl.pt,
@spam@sferreira.lisboaspamclub1840.pt,
{Quote hidden}

===============================================================
cumprimentos / best regards
     Jorge Ferreira          //EraseMEjorgegf@spam@spamTakeThisOuTmail.telepac.pt
------ Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth -------
===============================================================

'(OT) How can I review old messages???'
1999\01\19@221917 by Brian

flavicon
face
I accidentally erased several very helpful URL's and e-mail addresses
from this group. How can I get sent old listings? I would only need the
last 5 days.

Thanks,

Brian

'[Fwd: Hoax (Was Re: Virus - Warning message]]'
1999\01\20@020533 by erik

flavicon
face
part 0 1042 bytes content-type:text/plain (decoded 7bit)

Taken from http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/jtch.html

Join the Crew is not a virus. It is a hoax. The "virus" does not exist.
There is currently no virus that has the characteristics ascribed to "Join
the Crew." It is a sham, meant only to panic new or inexperienced computer
users.

{Original Message removed}

'FW: Virus - Warning message'
1999\01\20@032752 by Wolfgang Kynast

picon face
Hi Jorge,

I know that you tried to be helpful, but NEVER send
such nonsense to anybody, especially not to a mailing list.

Such a virus does not exist, it is a hoax (joke),
see http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/hoax.html

Regards,
Wolfgang
--
PIC links:
http://people.frankfurt.netsurf.de/wky/pic.htm

'[Fwd: Re: FW: Virus - Warning message]'
1999\01\20@073302 by paulb

flavicon
face
Message-ID: <spamBeGone36A5CA46.F20STOPspamspamspam_OUTmidcoast.com.au>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 23:21:26 +1000
From: "Paul B. Webster VK2BZC" <.....paulb@spam@spamRemoveMEmidcoast.com.au>
Reply-To: spamBeGonepaulb.....spamspam_OUTmidcoast.com.au
Organization: Webster Medical Pty. Ltd.    http://www.midcoast.com.au/~paulb/
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Wolfgang Kynast <wkysag@spam@spamspamBeGonegmx.de>
Subject: Re: FW: Virus - Warning message
References: <spamBeGone3.0.5.32.19990120022219.0091bd80EraseMEspammail.telepac.pt> <8393.990120@gmx.
de>
Content-Type: text/plain
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by siobhan.clinipath.com.au
id XAA03089

Wolfgang Kynast wrote:

> Hi Jorge,

> I know that you tried to be helpful, but NEVER send such nonsense to
> anybody, especially not to a mailing list.

 "Helpful"?  That«s exceeding generous of you Wolfgang!

 If I may add something to that, never send such rubbish to a list
of *intelligent* readers, because *if* they take your offering
seriously, (see at bottom) they will not shall we say, look upon your
intelligence too kindly.

> Such a virus does not exist, it is a hoax (joke),

 You are wrong there, Wolfgang.  Not only does that virus *exist*, it
is the single *most infectious* "computer virus" *ever* generated.  Just
ask yourself, "*How many times* have you seen it on your screen?"  How
many times have you replied to it?  How many hours of your time (I trust
you can put a notional monetary value on your time?) have you devoted to
stamping on it?

 How many people have used e-mail for more than a month and *not* read
it?  How many years has it been circulating, un-stoppable?

 How much havoc do you suppose it has caused in data-processing
departments and organisations?

 If you seriously answer these questions, and multiply this by the
number of "serious" users on the Internet, you will begin to appreciate
the situation.

 Hoax - perhaps.  Harmless - questionable, but very real.

Jorge Ferreira wrote:

>> Priority: non-urgent

>> Subject: FW: Virus - Warning message
>> Importance: Low

>>> So delete any message titled PENPAL or JOIN THE CREW.

 AKA "Good Times".

>>> This virus can do major DAMAGE to worldwide networks!

 And certainly has done.  Much credibility lost.

> ===============================================================
> cumprimentos / best regards
>       Jorge Ferreira          //jorgegfspamspamBeGonemail.telepac.pt
> ------ Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth -------
> ===============================================================

 Credit to you Jorge, that last line says it all!
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

'[OT] Virus - Warning message'
1999\01\20@075128 by Michael Rigby-Jones

flavicon
face
Most virus programs rely on a certain amount of intelligence to replicate
themselves.  This one relies on a certain amount of ignorance to acheive the
same thing.

Mike Rigby-Jones
spam_OUTmrjonesKILLspamspam.....nortelnetworks.com

{Quote hidden}

'(OT) How can I review old messages???'
1999\01\20@101747 by Matt Bonner

flavicon
face
Brian wrote:
>
> I accidentally erased several very helpful URL's and e-mail addresses
> from this group. How can I get sent old listings? I would only need the
> last 5 days.
>
Have you tried looking in your mailer's trash folder?  I use Netscape
mail and never empty my trash folder, using it as sort of a
PIClist/Borland Builder archive.  Mail me directly with the subject
and/or dates and/or keywords and I'll search my "archive" and forward
them to you.

--Matt RemoveMEmbonner.....spamspamBeGonesunada.com

'[OT] Re: FW: Virus - Warning message'
1999\01\21@183009 by Mark A Moss

picon face
So the virus deletes your hard drive, and then uses a deleted program
from your hardrive to send itself to every person on your deleted mailing
list?  Must be from the same people that write the virus which sets your
monitor on fire. :-)

My e-mail won't accept binaries anyway.

Mark Moss
Amateur Radio Operator, Technician, and General Tinkerer


On Wed, 20 Jan 1999 02:22:19 +0000 Jorge Ferreira
<spam_OUTjorgegfKILLspamspamTakeThisOuTMAIL.TELEPAC.PT> writes:
{Quote hidden}

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

'[OT] bounced messages'
1999\01\26@214122 by Dwayne Reid

flavicon
face
G'day, gang.

Lately, I've been getting two bounces for each message I post to the list.
These are quite different from the bounces I normally see but I'm not savvy
enough to figure out what they mean.

Now STOP!  I don't want ANYONE to rush out and post that they too are
getting bounces - what I'd like is for someone who knows what this stuff
means to write me PRIVATELY if they want me to send them a copy of the
offending messages and headers.  Obviously, if those who know how to figure
this stuff out are also getting the bounces, they don't need copies of mine.

Thanks, and sorry for the [OT] ness of this post.

dwayne


Dwayne Reid   <spamdwayner.....spamTakeThisOuTplanet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(403) 489-3199 voice     (403) 487-6397 fax

'Bounce messages'
1999\01\29@034349 by dave vanhorn

flavicon
face
I've received about a dozen bounce messages from the piclist server,
complaining about duplicate messages, but I didn't send dupes.. Anyone else
getting this?

1999\01\29@044856 by Paul Fletcher

picon face
yes - I'm seeing the same problem. After posting this I'm sure I'll
get a load more.

dave vanhorn wrote:

> I've received about a dozen bounce messages from the piclist server,
> complaining about duplicate messages, but I didn't send dupes.. Anyone else
> getting this?

1999\01\29@103834 by Joe and Pam

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face
dave vanhorn wrote:
>
> I've received about a dozen bounce messages from the piclist server,
> complaining about duplicate messages, but I didn't send dupes.. Anyone else
> getting this?


I am.  I get two for every message I send.

Joe

1999\01\29@200536 by Greg Cormier

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Yup. Same. I post 1 message, it gets sent correctly, and I get 2 messages
back saying I sent dupes. I think it's confused. It's the one repeating itself!

-greg


At 03:07 PM 01/29/99 , you wrote:
>yes - I'm seeing the same problem. After posting this I'm sure I'll
>get a load more.
>
>dave vanhorn wrote:
>
>> I've received about a dozen bounce messages from the piclist server,
>> complaining about duplicate messages, but I didn't send dupes.. Anyone else
>> getting this?

-----------------------
Greg Cormier
Kathmandu, Nepal
Local time : GMT + 5h30m
TakeThisOuTgcormierTakeThisOuTspamTakeThisOuTwlink.com.np
ICQ # : 565465


'Bounce messages'
1999\02\01@124014 by Rich Graziano
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I got a bounce message for asking a question about the 16F84.  I wanted to
know if anyone had used it to measure duty cycle.  I thought it was an
appropriate question for the group.

Richard

{Original Message removed}

'Replying to messages- a request PLEASE!'
1999\02\17@071808 by Paul BRITTON

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Dear all,

Could I ask, that in accordance with normal email/usenet etiquette,
when replying to messages, judicious use is made of the cut function,
in order to avoid exponential growth in message sizes, in long running
threads.
You dont need to include the *whole* of the previous message, in your
reply.

People on dialup connections have to pay to d/l messages, and they'd
like most of that to be spent on content they haven't read before.

Also as a DIGEST recipient, (since my boss moaned about spending too
much time reading email), I print out the digest, 4 pages to a sheet
so that I can read it offline and sometimes a lot of the paper
contains redundant info!

Just my ha'penny's worth.

Paul

'Bounced message - Sorry ...'
1999\02\24@065857 by caisson

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Hello Guys & Girls,

 Due to a little mixup by my ISP regarding my E-Mail account several of
the list's messages have been bounced.  The problem has been resolved, so
bounces should not occur anymore ....

I'm sorry for any trouble it may have caused ...

Greetz,
 Rudy Wieser

'RS232-IR REJECTED MESSAGE, SORRY'
1999\02\27@084654 by Goovaerts

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Euuuuuh, listmembers, I had promised to put my RS232-IR code on the list
because there where many people who wanted to take a look at it !! But the
message gets rejected bacause it's to big !! So, can all the people who
wanted to take a peek at it send there email addresses to me and I'll get
you my program a.s.a.p !!!

CIAO

Glenn Goovaerts

1999\02\27@110546 by Gary Kelley

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Glenn,
 I have been planning to do an IR project for quite some time, it just
hasn't risen to the top of the priority list yet.  I would be very
interested in looking at your project.
 FWIW, did you try attaching the code as a file to your mail message?  I
would expect that any message length limitations like that would come from
your ISP but you can usually get around those limits by attaching a file or
attaching several files.  I know AOL had size limits for the longest time.

Thanks,

Gary

At 02:43 PM 2/27/99 +0100, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1999\02\27@150002 by Jim Paul

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Goovaerts,

pleas send a copy of your RS232-IR code to me at KILLspamjamespEraseMEspamintertex.net

Thanks and Regards,

         Jim
{Original Message removed}

1999\02\27@165039 by ry (Nahum Tchernihhovsky)

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Goovaerts,

pleas send a copy of your RS232-IR code to me at RemoveMEcherry.n.....spamEraseMEvisonic.com

Thanks and Regards,



Cherry

1999\02\27@181438 by Cumhur Kizilari

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Hi Goovaerts,

pleas send a copy of your RS232-IR code to me at
ckizilariTakeThisOuTspamspamBeGonestudent.deu.edu.tr

Thanks ,

Goovaerts wrote:
{Quote hidden}


'RS232-IR REJECTED MESSAGE, SORRY'
1999\03\01@004007 by Kevin Fisk
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Glen,

Please count me in!

Thanks

Kevin <spam_OUTkfiskKILLspamspam@spam@wkpowerlink.com>

{Quote hidden}

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