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PICList Thread
'Help! How do I make high power Ultrasonic waves?'
1995\09\22@195312 by Gerry Smith

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I am making a project that uses a PIC to control a high power ultrasonic
wave.  I want to take a gas (very small amount) and comxress it in a closed
space with an ultrasonic wave (like a tiny air compressor).  The only problem
is I am having a hard time finding information on building a high power
ultrasonic wave generator.  I looked at some small ultrasonic transducers but
they don't seem to be strong enough to do anything.  If anyone has any ideas
I would be very interested to here them.  Thanks in advance.


'How to make a processor do nothing until interrupt'
1996\03\19@184821 by Hans-Christian Prytz
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I have a question which probably seems rather simple to those of you
who have used the PIC's for a while.

I need a way to have the processor wait (doing nothing) until an
interrupt from TMR0 occurs. I can't use sleep mode becuse TMR0 stops
when the processor enters sleep mode (right?), so I've tried using a
goto loop calling several NOP's, but this (according to MPSIM)
triggers the watchdog timer.

Does anybody have a suggestion?

--
____________________________________________
|Hans-Christian Prytz                        |
|e-mail: spam_OUThans.christian.prytzTakeThisOuTspamlogin.eunet.no |
|homepage: http://login.eunet.no/~hanscpr/   |
|____________________________________________|
"If anything can go wrong, it will!"
"If anything goes wrong, it will do so at
 the worst possible time!"
-- Murphy's 1st and 2nd law.
"Murphy was a damn optimist!!"
-- Any friend of Frank Drebin

1996\03\19@192202 by Eric T. Brewer

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The following should do what you desire:

Loop:
               ClrWDT
               Goto            Loop

Cheers,
eric

At 4:41 PM 3/19/96, Hans-Christian Prytz wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1996\03\20@065209 by Kaurstad, yenyvind

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> I have a question which probably seems rather simple to those of you
> who have used the PIC's for a while.
>
> I need a way to have the processor wait (doing nothing) until an
> interrupt from TMR0 occurs. I can't use sleep mode becuse TMR0 stops
> when the processor enters sleep mode (right?), so I've tried using a
> goto loop calling several NOP's, but this (according to MPSIM)
> triggers the watchdog timer.
>
> Does anybody have a suggestion?

Do you need the watchdog-timer ?
If not I suppose you could disable it using thc control bits.
(I'm not sure whether this is possible on all PIC's, though)


---------------------------------------------------------------
  Oyvind Kaurstad    Phone: Norway+90062116   oyvindspamKILLspamhsr.no
   4140 Erfjord     http://www.stud.his.no/~oyvind
              The truth is out there - NOT


'Who makes a 16C84 ZIF Socket?'
1996\10\14@213102 by Cameron Palmer
picon face
Where can I obtain a 16C84 ZIF Socket? Please give make & model.

Cameron

1996\10\14@214201 by fastfwd

face
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Cameron Palmer <.....PICLISTKILLspamspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU> wrote:

> Where can I obtain a 16C84 ZIF Socket?

Cameron:

Call Digi-Key (1 800 DIGI-KEY) and ask for part number 3M1802-ND
(gold contacts) or 3M1805-ND (tin contacts).  They cost $13.75 and
$12.15, respectively.

-Andy

=== Andrew Warren - EraseMEfastfwdspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTix.netcom.com                 ===
=== Fast Forward Engineering - Vista, California          ===
===                                                       ===
=== Custodian of the PICLIST Fund -- For more info, see:  ===
=== http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2499/fund.html ===

1996\10\15@185556 by fastfwd

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Cameron Palmer <Cameron_Douglasspamspam_OUTmsn.com> wrote:

> The Digi-Key guy said that is what I needed but maybe I'm asking
> this question incorrectly. I received the 3M1802-ND and it is the
> wrong part. I have a 16C84 Surface Mounted AKA SOIC-18 Package. The
> part your talking about is too big for this tiny chip.
>
> Please recommend another.

Cameron:

Ahh... You need a ZIF SOIC socket.  I'm assuming that you also need
it to have a DIP footprint, so it'll plug into your PIC programmer.

Normally, I'd just refer you to the answer to Question #2, in the
"Microchip PIC Answers" section of my company's web page, but I just
noticed that I omitted a phone number from that answer.  Therefore...

Call EDI Corporation at 702 735-4997; their part number for an
18-pin ZIF SOIC-to-DIP adapter is, as far as I can tell,
20SO30A/D3-ZL3.  When you call them, describe your application and
they'll tell you for sure whether that's the correct part number.

-Andy

P.S.  I'm copying this message to the PICLIST... Hope you don't mind.

Andrew Warren - @spam@fastfwdKILLspamspamix.netcom.com
Fast Forward Engineering, Vista, California
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2499


'Make Money !!'
1997\05\22@003212 by manager
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face
To be removed from our lists, hit reply and
type "remove" in the subject of your message.


MAKE AS MUCH MONEY AS YOU WANT TO !!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~GET  TUFF !!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~TOWARD ULTIMATE FINANCIAL FREEDOM~~~~~

I'm earning $$$ monthly marketing TUFF!!
And this is only the beginning!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~NEW DISK PROGRAM~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~TUFF~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"TUFF" IS THE MOST POWERFUL MONEY MAKER
OF IT'S TYPE TO DATE.

TUFF is based on a very unique growth structure
that has not been seen in disk based programs.
It's a simple system, however, at first, some have
difficulty grasping the concept because it is so
different than what they have seen in the past.

"TUFF" IS DIFFERENT THAN ALL THE OTHERS! With other
disk programs, you must wait until your next
generation starts manufacturing disks in order to
earn money. NOT WITH TUFF! YOU START EARNING MONEY
IMMEDIATELY!!

With the disks you send out by either email or
"snail" mail, you either receive $40 if someone joins
or they work for you by sending out disks that have
your name on them!

ALSO ENCLOSED ON THE DISK:  SIMPLE TRACK SOFTWARE:
A few of the features of SIMPLE TRACK are:

1. It's very easy to use.

2. It has a capacity of handling 7,500 prospects.

3. It automatically alerts you to prospects that
  are due to be re-contacted.

4. It has full edit, update, find, and scroll functions.

5. It's also very useful for keeping records on personal
  dates. Birthdays, anniversaries, etc.

Enjoy a tremendous perpetual income from marketing
SIMPLE TRACK and TUFF distributorships. The marketing
method is unique. You purchase one distributorship for
$40 and sell as many as you want for $40 each. And
for every distributorship you sell, you get to keep
the entire $40. Besides that, you will receive orders
for distributorships from the marketing efforts of
people in your downline even if you cease personal
marketing efforts.

HOW EASILY AND SIMPLE DISK PROGRAMS CAN WORK:

Having filled thousands of orders over the years, I
find that disk programs are the perfect products and
the easiest orders to fill. What could be more simple
than sending someone a file over the internet?

The disk explains the program - you don't have to call
people up and explain the product. You don't have to
send fliers along with the disk.

You don't have to physically mail disks - you can
email them!

You can send thousands of people the same disk -
AT THE SAME TIME! TUFF generates different codes each
time, you can send the same disk over and over again.

The perfect product for a "Home Page". Put it on your
home page and let people download it all day long! If
you are contemplating setting up a home page in the
near future, you're going to need some Freebies to
attract people to your site. What better product?

TUFF is a lifetime product - not something that will
be obsolete in the near future - it has longevity.

TUFF is FREE to review. No buying "a pig in a poke".
You know exactly what you're getting.

TO RECEIVE YOUR FREE COPY OF THE "TUFF" SOFTWARE -
HIT REPLY AND TYPE TUFF IN THE SUBJECT OF THE
EMAIL MESSAGE, AND WE'LL EMAIL YOU THE "TUFF.ZIP" FILE.

1997\05\22@065159 by Michael Coop

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part 0 1 bytes

1997\05\22@075016 by Raak, Cory

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REMOVE


{Quote hidden}

1997\05\22@104447 by Michael C. Sullivan

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manager@GTE.NET wrote:
{Quote hidden}

REMOVE !!!!!!

1997\05\22@110210 by helle leetmaa

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part 0 3415 bytes
-----Original Message-----
From:   RemoveMEmanagerspamTakeThisOuTGTE.NET [SMTP:managerEraseMEspam.....GTE.NET]
Sent:   Thursday, May 22, 1997 12:04 AM
To:     EraseMEPICLISTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject:        Make Money !!

To be removed from our lists, hit reply and
type "remove" in the subject of your message.


MAKE AS MUCH MONEY AS YOU WANT TO !!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~GET  TUFF !!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~TOWARD ULTIMATE FINANCIAL FREEDOM~~~~~

I'm earning $$$ monthly marketing TUFF!!
And this is only the beginning!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~NEW DISK PROGRAM~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~TUFF~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"TUFF" IS THE MOST POWERFUL MONEY MAKER
OF IT'S TYPE TO DATE.

TUFF is based on a very unique growth structure
that has not been seen in disk based programs.
It's a simple system, however, at first, some have
difficulty grasping the concept because it is so
different than what they have seen in the past.

"TUFF" IS DIFFERENT THAN ALL THE OTHERS! With other
disk programs, you must wait until your next
generation starts manufacturing disks in order to
earn money. NOT WITH TUFF! YOU START EARNING MONEY
IMMEDIATELY!!

With the disks you send out by either email or
"snail" mail, you either receive $40 if someone joins
or they work for you by sending out disks that have
your name on them!

ALSO ENCLOSED ON THE DISK:  SIMPLE TRACK SOFTWARE:
A few of the features of SIMPLE TRACK are:

1. It's very easy to use.

2. It has a capacity of handling 7,500 prospects.

3. It automatically alerts you to prospects that
  are due to be re-contacted.

4. It has full edit, update, find, and scroll functions.

5. It's also very useful for keeping records on personal
  dates. Birthdays, anniversaries, etc.

Enjoy a tremendous perpetual income from marketing
SIMPLE TRACK and TUFF distributorships. The marketing
method is unique. You purchase one distributorship for
$40 and sell as many as you want for $40 each. And
for every distributorship you sell, you get to keep
the entire $40. Besides that, you will receive orders
for distributorships from the marketing efforts of
people in your downline even if you cease personal
marketing efforts.

HOW EASILY AND SIMPLE DISK PROGRAMS CAN WORK:

Having filled thousands of orders over the years, I
find that disk programs are the perfect products and
the easiest orders to fill. What could be more simple
than sending someone a file over the internet?

The disk explains the program - you don't have to call
people up and explain the product. You don't have to
send fliers along with the disk.

You don't have to physically mail disks - you can
email them!

You can send thousands of people the same disk -
AT THE SAME TIME! TUFF generates different codes each
time, you can send the same disk over and over again.

The perfect product for a "Home Page". Put it on your
home page and let people download it all day long! If
you are contemplating setting up a home page in the
near future, you're going to need some Freebies to
attract people to your site. What better product?

TUFF is a lifetime product - not something that will
be obsolete in the near future - it has longevity.

TUFF is FREE to review. No buying "a pig in a poke".
You know exactly what you're getting.

TO RECEIVE YOUR FREE COPY OF THE "TUFF" SOFTWARE -
HIT REPLY AND TYPE TUFF IN THE SUBJECT OF THE
EMAIL MESSAGE, AND WE'LL EMAIL YOU THE "TUFF.ZIP" FILE.

'Please stop replying to: Make Money !!'
1997\05\22@125013 by myke predko

flavicon
face
This note is directed to everyone who is replying to the spam we all
received recently.  

Please stop hitting reply and putting "remove" in the note.  


The original note (or spam) was sent to the PICLIST - not you as
individuals.  replying to this note just clutters up PICLIST with unneeded
(and unheeded) notes.  

Secondly, if you reply directly to the sender, chances are you'll be put on
a mailing list and get additional spams directly.  (Right now, all they have
is the PICLIST address - do you want them to have your E-Mail address as well?)

Like physical junk mail, there's virtually nothing you can do to stop it.
So ignore it and let's talk about PICs.  

myke

>remove
>
>{Original Message removed}

1997\05\22@152651 by Osama ALASSIRY

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face
the only thing that COULD work (MAYBE?) is to reply to the original sender,
faking as the PICLIST's email address....
----
From: myke predko <RemoveMEmykeEraseMEspamEraseMEPASSPORT.CA>
To: RemoveMEPICLISTspam_OUTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Date: 23 May 1997 1:51 AM
Subject: Please stop replying to: Make Money !!

This note is directed to everyone who is replying to the spam we all
received recently.

Please stop hitting reply and putting "remove" in the note.


The original note (or spam) was sent to the PICLIST - not you as
individuals.  replying to this note just clutters up PICLIST with unneeded
(and unheeded) notes.

Secondly, if you reply directly to the sender, chances are you'll be put
on
a mailing list and get additional spams directly.  (Right now, all they
have
is the PICLIST address - do you want them to have your E-Mail address as
well?)

Like physical junk mail, there's virtually nothing you can do to stop it.
So ignore it and let's talk about PICs.

myke

>remove
>
>{Original Message removed}


'How to make a counter with a 16C84 chip.'
1997\06\03@084409 by Jose Antonio Noda
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face
Hi,

I wrote a message to this mailing list,
and some people helped me with a source code for a counter with a 16C84.
I would like receive again these source code,
because my mailbox was deleted, about 3Mb of messages.
I would like tell to the people that sent me some source code,
that if they could send me again the source code.
Please, I need the source code for a counter with a 16C84.

Regards,
Jose Antonio Noda

1997\06\03@085027 by David BALDWIN

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What kind of counter? With zero, increment each second ,,,, ????


'SPEND $20 MAKE $50,000 IN 90 DAYS'
1997\07\08@115025 by edddeeeee
picon face
<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000">Subj:        Fwd: No Subject
<FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE=4><B>MLM for Dummies!  No Selling!  No Hassle!  A No
Brainer!!!
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3></B>
<FONT  COLOR="#0080ff"
SIZE=3>************************************************************************
**
Please send remove requests to RemoveMEoffthislistTakeThisOuTspamspamusa.net
**************************************************************************
Send Help requests to EraseMEfreedom4uspamspamspamBeGoneusa.net   (do not use Reply)
**************************************************************************
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>
<FONT  COLOR="#0000ff" SIZE=4>For those of us who don't know a downline from a
clothesline.....<FONT  COLOR="#0000ff" SIZE=3>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>
<FONT  COLOR="#00ff00" SIZE=3>
      Please don't make the same mistake I made!  I THREW this
letter away at least twice before I took the time to read it. When I
did, it dawned on me that this could work! Take a look for yourself! A
copy of the letter I received is below.

Steve
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0080ff" SIZE=3>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#00ff00"
SIZE=3>********************************************************************

My name is Christopher Erickson.  Two years ago, the corporation I
worked at for the past twelve years down-sized and my position was
eliminated.  After unproductive job interviews,  I decided to start my
own business.  In short order, however, I encountered many unforseen
financial problems.  I owed my family, friends, and creditors over
$35,000.  The economy was taking a toll on my business and I just
couldn't seem to make ends meet.  I had to refinance and borrow
against my home to support my family and struggling business.  I truly
believed it was wrong for me to be in debt like this.  AT THAT MOMENT
something significant happened in my life and I am writing to share my
experience in hopes that this will change your life
FOREVER....FINANCIALLY!!!        In mid December, I received this
program via e-mail.  Six months prior to receiving this program I had
been sending away for information on various business opportunities.
All of the programs I received, in my opinion, were not cost
effective.  They were either too difficult for me to comprehend or the
initial investment was too much for me to risk to see if they worked
or not.  One claimed I'd make a million dollars in one year...it
didn't tell me I'd have to write a book to make it.        But like I
was saying, in December of '92 I received this program.  I didn't send
for it, or ask for it, they just got my name off a mailing list. THANK
GOODNESS FOR THAT!!!  After reading it several times, to make sure I
was reading it correctly, I couldn't believe my eyes.  Here was a
MONEY-MAKING PHENOMENON.  I could invest as much as I wanted to start,
without putting me further in debt.  After I got a pencil and paper
and figured it out, I saw I would at least get my money back. After
determining that the program is LEGAL and NOT A CHAIN LETTER, I asked
myself "WHY NOT?" and decided to do it.
       Initially I sent out 10,000 e-mails.  It only cost me about
$15.00 for my time on-line.  The great thing about e-mail is that I
didn't need any money for printing to send out the program, only the
cost to fulfill my orders.  I am telling you like it is, I hope it
doesn't turn you off, but I promised myself that I would not "cheat"
anyone, no matter how much money it cost me!.
       In less than one week, I was starting to receive orders for
REPORT #1. By January 13th, I had received 26 orders for REPORT #1.
When you read the GUARANTEE in the program, you will see that "YOU
MUST RECEIVE 15 TO 20 ORDERS FOR REPORT #1 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF YOU
DON'T, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO!"
       My first step in making $200,000 in 6 months was done.
By January 30th, I had received 196 orders for REPORT #2.  If you go
back to the GUARANTEE, "YOU MUST RECEIVE 100 OR MORE ORDERS FOR REPORT
#2 WITHIN TWO WEEKS.  IF NOT, SEND OUT MORE PROGRAMS UNTIL YOU DO.
ONCE YOU HAVE 100 ORDERS, THE REST IS EASY, RELAX, YOU WILL MAKE YOUR
GOAL."  Well, I had 196 orders for REPORT #2, more than I needed.  So
I sat back and relaxed.  By March 19th, of my e-mailing of 10,000, I
received $58,000 with more coming in every day.
       I paid off  ALL my debts and bought a much needed new car.
Please take time to read the attached program, IT WILL CHANGE YOUR
LIFE FOREVER! Remember,  it won't work  if you don't try it.  This
program does work, but you must follow it EXACTLY!  Especially the
rules of not trying to place your name in a different place.  It
doesn't work, you'll lose out on a  lot  of  money!  REPORT  #2
explains this.  Always follow the guarantee, 20 orders minimum for
REPORT #1, and 100 or more orders for REPORT #2 and you will make
$200,000 or more in 6 months.  I AM LIVING PROOF THAT IT WORKS !!!

       If you choose not to participate in this program, I'm sorry.
It really is a great opportunity with little cost or risk to you.  If
you do choose to participate, follow the program and you will be on
your way to financial security. If you are a fellow business owner and
you are in financial trouble like I was, or you want to start your own
business, consider this a sign.  I DID!

                                       Sincerely,
                                       Christopher Erickson

PS.  Do you have any idea what 11,700 $5 bills ($58,000) look like
       piled up on a kitchen table? IT'S AWESOME!

</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#ffff00" SIZE=3>"THREW IT AWAY"</FONT><FONT
COLOR="#00ff00" SIZE=3>
       "I  had  received  this program before.  I  threw  it away,
but later wondered if I shouldn't have given it a try.  Of course, I
had no idea who to contact to get a copy, so I had to wait until I was
e-mailed another copy of the program.  Eleven months passed, then it
came.  I DIDN'T throw this one away.  I made $41,000 on the first
try."
                                       Dawn W., Evansville, IN

</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#ffff00" SIZE=3>"NO FREE LUNCH"</FONT><FONT
COLOR="#00ff00" SIZE=3>
       "My late father always told me, "Remember, Alan, there is no
free lunch in life.  You get out of life what you put into it."
Through trial and error and a somewhat slow, frustrating start, I
finally figured it out. The program works very well, I just had to
find the right target group of people to e-mail it to.  So far this
year, I have made over $63,000 using this program.  I know my dad
would have been very proud of me."
                                       Alan B., Philadelphia, PA

********************************************************************

</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0000ff" SIZE=3>A PERSONAL NOTE FROM THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS
PROGRAM</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#00ff00" SIZE=3>

By the time you have read the enclosed information and looked over the
enclosed program and reports, you should have concluded that such a
program,  and  one that is legal,  could not have been created by an
amateur.

Let me tell you a little about myself.  I had a profitable business
for ten years.  Then in 1979 my business began falling off.  I was
doing the same things that were previously successful for me, but it
wasn't working.  Finally, I figured it out.  It wasn't me; it was the
economy. Inflation and recession had replaced the stable economy that
had been with us since 1945.  I don't have to tell you what happened
to the unemployment rate...because many of you know from first hand
experience. There were more failures and bankruptcies than ever
before.

The middle class was vanishing.  Those who knew what they were doing
invested wisely and moved up.  Those who did not, including those who
never had anything to save or invest, were moving down into the ranks
of the poor.  As the saying goes, "THE RICH GET RICHER AND THE POOR
GET POORER."  The traditional methods of making money will never allow
you to "move up" or "get rich"; inflation will see to that. You have
just received information that can give you financial freedom for the
rest of your life, with "NO RISK" and "JUST A LITTLE BIT OF EFFORT."
You can make more money in the next few months than you have ever
imagined.

I should also point out that I will not see a penny of your money, nor
anyone else who has provided a testimonial for this program.  I have
already made over FOUR MILLION DOLLARS!  I have retired from the
program after sending out over 16,000 programs.  Now I have several
offices which market this and several other programs here in the US
and overseas.  By the Spring, we wish to market the 'Internet' by a
partnership with AMERICA ONLINE.

Follow the program EXACTLY AS INSTRUCTED.  Do not change it in any
way. It works exceedingly well as it is now.  Remember to e-mail a
copy of this exciting program to everyone that you can think of.  One
of the people you send this to may send out 50,000...and your name
will be on every one of them!.  Remember though, the more you send
out, the more potential customers you will reach.

So my friend, I have given you the ideas, information, materials and
opportunity to become financially independent, IT IS UP TO YOU NOW!

"THINK ABOUT IT"

Before you delete this program from your mailbox, as I almost did,
take a little time to read it and REALLY THINK ABOUT IT.  Get a pencil
and figure out what could happen when YOU participate.  Figure out the
worst possible response and no matter how you calculate it, you will
still make a lot of money!  Definitely you will get back what you
invested.  Any doubts you have will vanish when your first orders come
in.  IT WORKS!

                                       Paul Johnson, Raleigh, NC

</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE=3>HERE'S HOW THIS AMAZING PROGRAM WILL MAKE
YOU $$$$$$</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#00ff00" SIZE=3>

Let's say that you decide to start small, just to see how it goes, and
we'll assume you and all those involved send out 2,000 programs each.
Let's also assume that the mailing receives a .5% response.  Using a
good list the response would be much better.  Also many people will
send out hundreds of thousands of programs instead of 2,000.  But
continuing with this example, you send out only 2,000 programs.  With
a .5% response, that is only 10 orders for REPORT #1.
Those 10 people respond by sending out 2,000 programs each for a
total of 20,000.  Out of those .5%, 100 people respond and order
REPORT #2.  Those 100 mail out 2,000 programs each for a total of
200,000.  The .5% response to that is 1,000 orders for REPORT #3.
Those 1,000 send out 2,000 programs each for a 2,000,000 total.  The
.5% response to that is 10,000 orders for REPORT #4.  That's 10,000
five dollar bills for you. CASH!!!!  Your total income in this example
is $50 + $500 + $5000 + $50,000 for a total of $55,550!!!!

REMEMBER FRIEND, THIS IS ASSUMING 1,990 OUT OF 2,000 PEOPLE YOU
MAIL TO WILL DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING... AND TRASH THIS PROGRAM!
DARE TO THINK FOR A MOMENT WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF EVERYONE
OR HALF SENT OUT 100,000 PROGRAMS INSTEAD OF ONLY 2,000.  Believe me,
many people will do that and more!  By the way, your cost to
participate in this is practically nothing.  You obviously already
have an Internet connection and e-mail is FREE!!!  REPORT#3 will show
you the best methods for bulk e-mailing and purchasing e-mail lists.

THIS IS A LEGITIMATE, LEGAL, MONEY MAKING OPPORTUNITY.  It does not
require you to come in contact with people, do any hard work, and best
of all, you never have to leave the house except to get the mail.  If
you believe that someday you'll get that big break that you've been
waiting for, THIS IS IT!  Simply follow the instructions, and your
dream will come true.  This multi-level e-mail order marketing program
works perfectly...100% EVERY TIME.  E-mail is the sales tool of the
future.  Take advantage of this non-commercialized method of
advertising NOW!!  The longer you wait, the more people will be doing
business using e-mail.  Get your piece of this action!!

MULTI-LEVEL MARKETING (MLM) has finally gained respectability.  It is
being taught in the Harvard Business School, and both Stanford
Research and The Wall Street Journal have stated that between 50% and
65% of all goods and services will be sold throughout Multi-level
Methods by the mid to late 1990's.  This is a Multi-Billion Dollar
industry and of the 500,000 millionaires in the US, 20% (100,000) made
their fortune in the last several years in MLM.  Moreover, statistics
show 45 people become millionaires EVERY DAY through Multi-Level
Marketing.

This is not a chain letter, but a perfectly legal money making
opportunity.  Basically, this is what we do:  As with all
multi-level business, we build our business by recruiting new
partners and selling our products.  Every state in the USA allows you
to recruit new multi-level business partners, and we offer a product
for EVERY dollar sent. YOUR ORDERS COME AND ARE FILLED THROUGH THE
MAIL, so you are not involved in personal selling.  You do it
privately in your own home, store or office.

This is the GREATEST Multi-level Mail Order Marketing anywhere:

Here is how to work the program:

Step (1)   Order all four 4 REPORTS listed by NAME AND NUMBER.
 Do this by ordering the REPORT from each of the four (4)
names listed on the next page.  For each REPORT, send $5
 CASH and a SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED envelope  (BUSINESS
 SIZE #10) to the person listed for the SPECIFIC REPORT.
 International orders should also include $1 extra instead
 of postage.  It is essential that you specify the NAME and
NUMBER of the report requested to the person you are
 ordering from.  You will need ALL FOUR (4) REPORTS because
you will be REPRINTING and RE-SELLING them. DO NOT alter
 the names or sequence beyond doing what the instructions say.
         NOTE: Write your request on an 8 1/2 x 11 piece of paper
and wrap the cash in that BEFORE you put it in the
 envelope. This helps to ensure the mail gets through!

Step (2)   Replace  the  name  and  address  under  REPORT #1  with
          yours,  moving the one that was there down to REPORT #2.
          Drop  the  name and address under REPORT #2 to REPORT #3,
          moving the one that was there to REPORT #4.  The name and
          address that was under REPORT #4 is dropped from the list
          and this party  is  no doubt on the way to the bank.
  When doing   this,   make   certain   you  type  the  names
 and addresses ACCURATELY!  DO NOT MIX UP MOVING
 PRODUCT/REPORT POSITIONS!!!

Step (3)   Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it
          as a text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used
with whatever e-mail program you like.  Again, REPORT #3
will tell you the best methods of bulk e-mailing and
acquiring e-mail lists.

Step (4)   E-mail a copy of the entire program (all of this is very
          important) to everyone whose address you can get your
hands on. Start with friends and relatives since you can
encourage them to take  advantage of this fabulous money-making
          opportunity.  That's what I did.  And they love me now,
more than ever.  Then, e-mail to anyone and everyone!  Use
your  imagination!  You can get e-mail addresses from
companies on  the Internet who specialize in e-mail mailing lists.
These are very cheap: 100,000 addresses for around $35.00.

</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE=3>IMPORTANT:</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#00ff00"
SIZE=3>  You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so
always request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase
these lists when you order the four (4) REPORTS.

ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!!

REQUIRED REPORTS

***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME***

ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE AND $5 CASH FOR
EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER
________________________________________________________
REPORT #1       "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#ff8080" SIZE=3>ORDER REPORT #1 FROM:
JD Marketing
8170 South Eastern Ave.  Suite # 4 - 510
Las Vegas, NV  89123
U. S. A.
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#00ff00" SIZE=3>
________________________________________________________
REPORT #2       "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES"

</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#ff8080" SIZE=3>ORDER REPORT #2 FROM:
S & J Marketing
2712 North Green Valley Pkwy. Suite # 370
Henderson, NV 89014
U. S. A.
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#00ff00"
SIZE=3>________________________________________________________
REPORT #3       "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS"

</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#ff8080" SIZE=3>ORDER REPORT #3 FROM:
S. M. Davis
P.O. Box 461240
Aurora, CO 80046-1240
U.S.A.
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#00ff00" SIZE=3>
________________________________________________________
REPORT #4       "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS"

</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#ff8080" SIZE=3>ORDER REPORT #4 FROM:
M. P. Kiely
30 Gladys Dr.
Spring Valley, N.Y. 10977-6025
U.S.A.
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>
<FONT  COLOR="#00ff00"
SIZE=3>________________________________________________________

</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0000ff" SIZE=3>CONCLUSION</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#00ff00"
SIZE=3>

       I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this
program. You, too, will be making money within six months, if you
follow the SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this mailing.
       To be financially independent is to be FREE.  Free to make
financial decisions as never before.  Go into business, get into
investments, retire or take a vacation.  No longer will a lack of
money hold you back.
       However, very few people reach financial independence
because, when opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it.  It is
much easier  to say "NO" than "YES," and this is the question that you
must answer for yourself.   Will YOU ignore this amazing opportunity
or will you take advantage of it? If you do nothing, you have indeed
missed something valuable, and nothing will change.  Please re-read
this material; this is a special opportunity. If you have any
questions, please feel free to write to the sender of this
information.  You will get a prompt and informative reply.        My
method is simple.  I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that
costs me pennies to produce and e-mail.  I should also point out
again, that this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL
make money. This is not a chain letter or pyramid scheme.  At times
you have probably received chain letters, asking you to send money, on
faith, but getting NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever!  Not
only are chain letters illegal, but the risk of someone breaking the
chain makes them quite unattractive.        You are offering a
legitimate product to your people.  After they purchase the product
from you, they reproduce more and resell them. It's simple free
enterprise.  As you learned from the enclosed material, the PRODUCT is
a series of four (4) FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS.  The information
contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in making your
participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful to
you in any other business decisions you make in the years ahead. You
are also buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which will
be ordered from you by those to whom you mail this program.  The
concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily be
reproduced at a local copy center for a cost of about 3 cents a copy.
Best wishes with the program and Good Luck!

</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE=3>"IT WAS TRULY AMAZING"</FONT><FONT
COLOR="#00ff00" SIZE=3>

"Not being the gambling type, it took me several weeks to make up my
mind to participate in this program.  But conservative as I am, I
decided that the initial investment was so little that there was no
way that I could not get enough orders to at least get my money back.
BOY, was I ever surprised when I found my medium sized post office box
crammed with orders!  I will make more money this year than any ten
years of my life before."

                                       Mary Riceland, Lansing, MI

</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#ff8080" SIZE=3>TIPS FOR SUCCESS</FONT><FONT
COLOR="#00ff00" SIZE=3>

Send for your four (4) REPORTS immediately so you will have them when
the orders start coming in.  When you receive a $5 order, you MUST
send out the product/service to comply with U.S. Postal and Lottery
laws.  Title 18 Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that:  "A
PRODUCT OR SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED."

WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE:

1.      Name your new company. You can use your own name if you
 desire.

2.      Get a post office box (preferred).

3.      Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must
remember,  your name and address go next to REPORT #1 and the
others  all move down one, with the fourth one being bumped OFF the
list.

4.      Obtain as many e-mail addresses as possible to send until
you receive the information on mailing list companies in REPORT
#3.

5.      Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out.
 The more you send, and the quicker you send them, the more money
        you will make.

6.      After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders.

7.      Copy the FOUR (4) REPORTS so you are able to send them out
 as soon as you receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE
        SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ORDERS YOU RECEIVE!

8.      Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible.
*******************************************************************

</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#ff8080" SIZE=3>YOUR GUARANTEE</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#00ff00"
SIZE=3>

The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this:  you
must receive 20 orders for REPORT #1.  This is a must!!!  If you don't
within two weeks, e-mail out more programs until you do.  Then a
couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for
REPORT #2, if you don't, send out more programs until you do.  Once
you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, (take a deep
breath) you can sit back and  relax,  because  YOU  ARE  GOING TO MAKE
AT  LEAST  $50,000. Mathematically  it  is  a  proven guarantee.   Of
those  who  have participated in the program and reached the above
GUARANTEES, ALL have reached their goal.  Also, remember, every time
your name is moved down the list, you are in front of a different
REPORT, so you can keep track of your program by knowing what people
are ordering from you. IT'S THAT EASY; REALLY, IT IS!!!

</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#ff8080" SIZE=3>REMEMBER:
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#00ff00" SIZE=3>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#0000ff" SIZE=4><B>"HE WHO DARES NOTHING, NEED NOT HOPE FOR
ANYTHING."
"INVEST A LITTLE TIME, ENERGY AND MONEY NOW OR SEARCH FOR IT
       .................FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE."</FONT><FONT
COLOR="#00ff00" SIZE=3></B>



********************************************************************************
********************
For Help or Additional Information send e-mail to:   RemoveMEfreedom4uKILLspamspamusa.net
********************************************************************************
*******************</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>
<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>
</PRE></HTML>

1997\07\11@112546 by John Piccirillo

flavicon
face
 I don't care what they are - I'll take two.

1997\07\13@034043 by Ian Raymond Douglas

flavicon
face
Sorry John, I bought all they had and am selling them now for $30 each.
                                  regards, Ian

On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, John Piccirillo wrote:

>   I don't care what they are - I'll take two.
>


'LAUNDRY WILL MAKE YOU RICH!'
1997\09\25@043230 by oe4fe33f333hj6
picon face
<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#80ffff"><FONT  COLOR="#ff00ff" SIZE=2><B>to be
removed see end of letter</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE=5>
</P><P ALIGN=CENTER>
You wouldn't happen to know anyone that does laundry and wants to make money,
would you?</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>
</B>
</P><P ALIGN=LEFT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2><B>Dateline: 6/10/1997
</P><P ALIGN=CENTER>Breakthrough Technology Revolutionizes the way an Entire
Population Cleans,Overnight!<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3></B>

What do the 300-400 people that <U>earned between $1000 & $2000</U> in the
very first month of a new business <I>have to do with doing laundry?</I>
Or, for that matter, what of the 64 people that earned <U>in excess of
$3000</U> in 30 days?
Or how did those 46 people who earned over $5000 accomplish it?
AND how do you explain those incomes that exceeded $20,000, IN 30 DAYS?
<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=4><U>AND we won't even mention the husband and
wife that earned
<FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" BACK="#000000" SIZE=5><B>over
$90,000,</FONT></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" BACK="#FFFFFF" SIZE=3></U></B>

<FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE=4><B>their very <U>FIRST MONTH IN THE
BUSINESS</U>!!!
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>$1.2 million paid out in month 1 to
people just like you.</B>

<FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" BACK="#FFFFFF" SIZE=6>Call Ryan @ 214-890-6912 code 228
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" BACK="#ff0000" SIZE=5>(call back if
busy)</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" BACK="#FFFFFF" SIZE=6>
</FONT>
<FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE=5>
Send All email requests to
<A HREF="rtenSTOPspamspamspam_OUTqlink2info.com">E-mail us! Click Here!</A>
<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>Be sure to include Name& Phone Number for
Immediate Response<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2>
<U>
                                                                        </U>
please read on......
<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>Every once in  a while a product comes along
that changes the way we live our lives.
Examples of some of these breakthrough technologies are:
the microwave oven, the automobile,
the dishwasher & the washing machine.<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2>

<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>Through advanced technology, everyone knows
what happened to the multi-billion dollar vinyl record industry when the
compact disc came out.<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2>

<FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE=5>The Revolutionary Earthsmart Laundry CD is
going to do to laundry what the compact disc did to music.</FONT>

</P><P ALIGN=LEFT>
</P><P ALIGN=CENTER><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=4>It is with great pleasure
that we bring you the best thing that has happened to laundry since the
invention of the mechanical washing machine.<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>
</P><P ALIGN=LEFT>
</P><P ALIGN=CENTER><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=5>Introducing the EARTHSMART
LAUNDRY CD<FONT
COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE=3>TM</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3> </P><P
ALIGN=LEFT> </P><P
ALIGN=CENTER><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=5>Replaces Laundry Detergent
Forever!<FONT
COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3> </P><P ALIGN=LEFT> </P><P ALIGN=CENTER><FONT
COLOR="#ff0000"
SIZE=5>NEVER USE TOXIC LAUNDRY DETERGENT AGAIN!!</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#ff8080"
SIZE=3> </P><P
ALIGN=LEFT></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3> </P><P ALIGN=CENTER>Imagine,
being able to
do literally thousands of loads of laundry without the use of toxic laundry
detergent or
fabric softener. <FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=4>And still have your clothes come
out fresh
and clean!!<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>

<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=4>6 REASONS WHY EVERYONE WANTS THE
<FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE=5>EARTHSMART Laundry CD<FONT  COLOR="#ff0000"
SIZE=3>TM</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>
</P><P ALIGN=LEFT>
</P><P ALIGN=CENTER><FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE=3><B>SAVES MONEY</FONT></B>
The Earthsmart Laundry CD<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2>TM  lasts approximately
2500 washes.
It keeps<FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE=3> <FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" BACK="#000000"
SIZE=3>Washing&
washing& Washing & washing & Washing......</FONT> Never buy fabric softeners,
static sheets,
or detergents ever again! Save thousands over the life of your CD. <FONT
COLOR="#ff0000"
SIZE=3><B> SAVES THE ENVIRONMENT</FONT></B> Each Earthsmart Laundry CD TM
eliminates 600 lbs of detergent from ever polluting
our water. The Earthsmart Laundry CD TM
is 100% Recyclable& 100% Non Polluting.

<FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE=3><B>CHEMICAL FREE WASHING</FONT>
</B>
No liquid or powdered detergent is used.  A Cleaner, Fresher, Softer wash.

<FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE=3><B>100% HYPOALLERGENIC</FONT>
</B>
No soap.  No chemicals.  No residues that remain on your clothes and touch
your skin! No allergens such as phosphorous, dyes, fillers, and perfumes.

<FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE=3><B>EASY TO USE</FONT>
</B>
Simply put the Earthsmart Laundry CD TM
in your washer.
Don't take it out until 2500 loads have been completed.
Dry as normal.

<FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE=3><B>EXTENDS THE LIFE OF YOUR CLOTHES</FONT></B>
Do you know where lint comes from?
Harsh chemicals breakdown your fabrics resulting in what we call lint that
gathers in your dryer. The Earthsmart Laundry CD
TM IS <B>FABRIC FRIENDLY</FONT>
</B>. Say Goodbye to
lint!!
Your favorite clothes last forever!

</P><P ALIGN=LEFT>
</P><P ALIGN=CENTER>Best of all, the <FONT  COLOR="#ff0000"
SIZE=3><B>Earthsmart Laundry CD TM
</B> is demonstratable &
is 100% GUARANTEED.
</P><P ALIGN=LEFT>
</P><P ALIGN=CENTER>This Product Replaces a product that is used worldwide
everyday.

<FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE=5>ESTIMATED MARKET POTENTIAL

1000 loads of laundry are started every second
in the U.S. alone!
100 million washing machines in America.<B>A
$20 Billion Markek</B>.

O.K., So how much can I make?  you ask.  Here is an example:

Do you know 4 people who do laundry, are interested in saving money & the
environment & want extra income? And do you think that they know 4 people who
do laundry, are interested in saving money & the environment & want extra
income? If this cycle repeats itself just one more time,

that would yield you <FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE=3><B>$5532 per month in
residual income!!
Do you know what residual income is?
</FONT>
<FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE=3>It is income that keeps coming
in on a recurring basis,
regardless of whether or not you get out of bed in the morning!</FONT>
</B>______________________________________
We chose to market this product through network marketing.
Network marketing, because of modern communications technology &
the need to more efficiently distribute products, is exploding all over the
world.

Fortunes are being made right now <B>by people
just like you !!</B>
</FONT>
<FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE=3><U><B>Why? This is a product that Really sells
itself.</FONT></U></B>
Just look at what others are saying about this Revolutionary product &
<FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" BACK="#c0c0c0" SIZE=4><B>Opportunity of a
Lifetime</FONT></FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" BACK="#FFFFFF" SIZE=3></B>

<FONT  COLOR="#80ffff" SIZE=3><I>I've tried so many other
'opportunities' in the past. They were a waste of time & money.
In my first month with this company, I was able to make over $5000! I'm
excited.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#FFFFFF" SIZE=3>
</I>Mitchell, Florida

<FONT  COLOR="#000000" BACK="#c0c0c0" SIZE=3><I>I got my Laundry CD's on
Monday. By Tuesday I gave them
out to Five of my friends.  By Wednesday all of them paid
for the laundry CD and four of them decided to join me in my business.
This is too easy.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" BACK="#FFFFFF" SIZE=3></I>
Ray, Michigan

<FONT  COLOR="#000000" BACK="#c0c0c0" SIZE=3><I>My clothes feel softer, smell
fresher & are so much cleaner. My favorite jeans that always come out stiff
with detergent, are now so soft that they feel like butter. I ll never use
laundry detergent ever again!!</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" BACK="#FFFFFF"
SIZE=3></I>
Sean, Maryland

<FONT  COLOR="#000000" BACK="#c0c0c0" SIZE=3><I>I just go over to my friend's
house & demo the product. While the Laundry CD does its magic, we watch soap
operas. I'm having fun while the CD goes to work for me.</FONT>
</I>Sheila, Ohio<I>
</I>
<FONT  COLOR="#000000" BACK="#c0c0c0" SIZE=3><I>I have a little story of my
own about the laundry disc. I got mine two days ago and really wanted to put
it to the test. So what I did was, I took a piece of white cloth and smeared
chocolate sauce, ketchup, and vegetable oil on it with a knife, mashing it
in, and put it in with the rest of the dirty clothes. Well, honestly, I
didn't expect to see it all come out, but, lo and behold, it was all gone!
Absolutely amazing! I'm convinced, & I tell this to everyone that I talk
to.</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" BACK="#FFFFFF" SIZE=3></I>
Sybil, Las Vegas

<FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE=4><B>Get started Now:</FONT>


<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=5> <FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=6>Call Ryan @
1-214-890-6912<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>
<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=5>

<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=2>
For more info:
Retrieve the Fax-on-Demand 1-512-703-6147
or call the 24 Hour Business Opportunity-Training Line
at 1-512-703-6747.

We also have LIVE toll-free teleconference calls on Monday & Thursday nights
@ 9:00 PM central. The number to call is 1-800-613-3456.

P.S. Don't Wait. This program is taking off. Over 7000 distributors & $2.3
million the very first month of business!! The product works & and people are
already making big money.
<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=4>So can you! </font>
<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=5>Get Started Today.  Call Ryan @ 1-214-890-6912
code228

<FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>
Send All email requests to
<A HREF="spamBeGonertenSTOPspamspamEraseMEqlink2info.com">E-Mail us! Click Here!</A>
Be sure to include Name& Phone Number for Immediate Response


<FONT  COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE=4>
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>
</P><P ALIGN=LEFT>
</P><P ALIGN=CENTER>
</P><P ALIGN=LEFT>

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'[OT] A new way to make PCB's'
1997\09\30@141426 by Martin R. Green

picon face
After all our discussions recently about plotting directly on a PCB blank,
the November 1997 issue of Electronics Now has details of a new method for
making PCB's that promises to be the easiest yet.

In a nutshell, this method involves printing the copper pattern directly on
a special flexible foil, which is then etched in a relatively benign
etchant solution, all before actually affixing the pattern to the PCB.  The
author recommends designing your patterns to use 0.1 inch centers so you
can use a prepunched perfboard and not have to do any drilling, but you can
also use a standard epoxy blank and drill as normal.

When your pattern is etched, it is glued to the perfboard or blank and then
used like a normally created PCB.  Although the author doesn't mention it,
using this technique with a perfboard looks like it would make creating
double sided boards a snap (of course sans the plated through holes).

If you are copying someone else's pattern (such as from a magazine), it is
unlikely it will be on exactly 0.1 inch centers, so you will have to use
a normal blank and drill it.

Before anyone asks, since this is one of the highest profile electronics
magazines on the market, and since it has just hit the newsstands, I will
NOT be scanning this article for PICLIST members.  Sorry, but it just takes
up too much of my time.


CIAO - Martin R. Green
spam_OUTelimarspamKILLspambigfoot.com

1997\09\30@184543 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
   After all our discussions recently about plotting directly on a PCB blank,
   the November 1997 issue of Electronics Now has details of a new method for
   making PCB's that promises to be the easiest yet.
       :
   In a nutshell, this method involves printing the copper pattern directly on
   a special flexible foil, which is then etched in a relatively benign
   etchant solution, all before actually affixing the pattern to the PCB.

Um.  What supports the copper pattern after it's etched, before it goes onto
the backing board?  Better be pretty tough stuff.

This neglects that the preferred hobbyist PCB material is "surplus" scraps
sold at about $0.01 per sq inch of copper (ie, $0.02c/sq inch for double
sided boards.)

BillW

1997\09\30@184941 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
By the way, I assume you're all aware of those CNC routers that will
mechanically remove copper from a board, given a pattern.  They sell for
as little as $10k-$15k new (I think "ready to use".)  They may be available
used or refurbished at a considerable discount (I think a salescritter once
told me $3-5K.)  Not exactly pocket change, but perhaps something more in
reach of a small company or school than you expected.

BillW


'[OT] A new way to make PCB's'
1997\10\01@074400 by Nic van der Walt
flavicon
face
>
> By the way, I assume you're all aware of those CNC routers that will
> mechanically remove copper from a board, given a pattern.  They sell for
> as little as $10k-$15k new (I think "ready to use".)  They may be available
> used or refurbished at a considerable discount (I think a salescritter once
> told me $3-5K.)  Not exactly pocket change, but perhaps something more in
> reach of a small company or school than you expected.

I built one of these for about $150. Only problem is that the
thinnest gap I can route is about 1mm. A board layed out at
14mil tracks and 80mils spacing does look pecular!

Nic

1997\10\01@093512 by Martin R. Green

picon face
Apparently the foil has a thin, strong, dimensionally stable backing that
remains on the foil after etching.

Also, surplus PCB blanks are the preferred hobbyist material primarily
because we have no alternative, other than wirewrap and point to point.
The special foil used here is US$45 for 5 8x10" sheets and US$80 for 10
8x10" sheets, and this method has very little waste, one sheet can make
several smaller boards.  Convenience, ease of use, and final results count
for a lot.  This method doesn't require a darkroom, exposures, UV light
source, or any chemicals except the etchant.  Plus there is no time
required for drilling, and aligning both sides of a double sided board is a
snap.  Anybody with just a laser printer can use this method, and a copier
will work well too if you don't use prepunched perfboard (it's hard to get
perfect 1:1 copying on any copier).

In any case, this certainly looks like it is worth trying.  Incidentally,
the author now uses this method for all his prototype boards, event those
that will have a high volume production later.

CIAO - Martin R. Green
RemoveMEelimarRemoveMEspamEraseMEbigfoot.com

----------
From:   William Chops Westfield[SMTP:KILLspambillwspamspamBeGoneCISCO.COM]
Sent:   Tuesday, September 30, 1997 6:44 PM
To:     PICLISTspamspammitvma.mit.edu
Subject:        Re: [OT] A new way to make PCB's

   After all our discussions recently about plotting directly on a PCB
blank,
   the November 1997 issue of Electronics Now has details of a new method
for
   making PCB's that promises to be the easiest yet.
       :
   In a nutshell, this method involves printing the copper pattern
directly on
   a special flexible foil, which is then etched in a relatively benign
   etchant solution, all before actually affixing the pattern to the PCB.

Um.  What supports the copper pattern after it's etched, before it goes
onto
the backing board?  Better be pretty tough stuff.

This neglects that the preferred hobbyist PCB material is "surplus" scraps
sold at about $0.01 per sq inch of copper (ie, $0.02c/sq inch for double
sided boards.)

BillW

1997\10\01@094740 by Norm Cramer

flavicon
face
>  Anybody with just a laser printer can use this method, and a copier
>will work well too if you don't use prepunched perfboard (it's hard to get
>perfect 1:1 copying on any copier).
>

Will it also work with an inkjet printer, or does it have to be a laser
printer?

This sounds like a great way to prototype my designs.

Norm

1997\10\01@100405 by Martin R. Green

picon face
It _might_ work with an ink jet, but the article specifically targets a laser
printer or copier.

CIAO - Martin R. Green
RemoveMEelimarspamBeGonespamRemoveMEbigfoot.com

----------
From:   Norm Cramer[SMTP:KILLspamcramerspamBeGonespamDSEG.TI.COM]
Sent:   Wednesday, October 01, 1997 9:45 AM
To:     @spam@PICLISTSTOPspamspam@spam@mitvma.mit.edu
Subject:        Re: [OT] A new way to make PCB's

>  Anybody with just a laser printer can use this method, and a copier
>will work well too if you don't use prepunched perfboard (it's hard to get
>perfect 1:1 copying on any copier).
>

Will it also work with an inkjet printer, or does it have to be a laser
printer?

This sounds like a great way to prototype my designs.

Norm

1997\10\01@101755 by Roger Books

flavicon
face
{Quote hidden}

1997\10\01@103630 by Roger Books

flavicon
face
Sorry about the last one, My button finger slipped.

What is the method of transferring the image?  It's not one of those
iron-on things is it?  Or is it thin enough to run through the printer
itself?

Roger

(feeling a little uncomfortable about running foil through my HP3)

1997\10\01@105439 by Martin R. Green

picon face
Nope, not one of those iron-on things.  This is apparently a special very
flexible foil on a thing plastic backing that is run directly thru your
laser printer, then etched, all before being affixed to the PCB or
perfboard material with adhesive.  The author does warn you to ensure that
the foil is perfectly flat, without curled edges that would scratch your
photosensitive drum.

Incidentally, the author also mentions that you don't have to glue the
pattern to anything, allowing you to make flexible circuits, like those
used behind the instrument cluster in your car.

As I stated in my first post on this subject, get all the details in the
November issue of Electronics Now.


CIAO - Martin R. Green
RemoveMEelimarspamspambigfoot.com

----------
From:   Roger Books[SMTP:TakeThisOuTbooksspamspamRemoveMEmail.state.fl.us]
Sent:   Wednesday, October 01, 1997 10:07 AM
To:     KILLspamPICLISTspamspamspam_OUTmitvma.mit.edu
Subject:        Re: [OT] A new way to make PCB's

Sorry about the last one, My button finger slipped.

What is the method of transferring the image?  It's not one of those
iron-on things is it?  Or is it thin enough to run through the printer
itself?

Roger

(feeling a little uncomfortable about running foil through my HP3)

1997\10\01@115833 by Bryson, William G (Bill)

flavicon
face
>Also, surplus PCB blanks are the preferred hobbyist material primarily
>because we have no alternative, other than wirewrap and point to point.
> The special foil used here is US$45 for 5 8x10" sheets and US$80 for
10
>8x10" sheets, and this method has very little waste, one sheet can make
>several smaller boards.  Convenience, ease of use, and final results
count
>for a lot.  This method doesn't require a darkroom, exposures, UV light
>source, or any chemicals except the etchant.  Plus there is no time
>required for drilling, and aligning both sides of a double sided board
is a
>snap.  Anybody with just a laser printer can use this method, and a
copier
>will work well too if you don't use prepunched perfboard (it's hard to
get
>perfect 1:1 copying on any copier).

You indicate that no required drilling is needed.  Just how does this
work?
I haven't been following this thread but if I can make PC boards without

any drilling with my laser at home I'm interested...

-------------------------------------------------
Work all day & night,
deliver on time & on budget,       Regards,
and justice for all...             Bill Bryson

1997\10\01@130928 by Roger Books

flavicon
face
> You indicate that no required drilling is needed.  Just how does this
> work?
> I haven't been following this thread but if I can make PC boards without
> any drilling with my laser at home I'm interested...

Lay it out so your pattern fits on perfboard like you can pick up (hugely
overpriced) at the shack.  Lots of holes already.

Roger

1997\10\01@132834 by Martin R. Green

picon face
Check the recent archives for this list, but if you want the full details, grab
the November issue of electronics Now.


CIAO - Martin R. Green
elimarRemoveMEspambigfoot.com

----------
From:   Bryson, William G (Bill)[SMTP:EraseMEBRYSOWGSTOPspamspamRemoveMETEXACO.COM]
Sent:   Wednesday, October 01, 1997 11:55 AM
To:     spam_OUTPICLISTRemoveMEspamEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu
Subject:        Re: [OT] A new way to make PCB's

>Also, surplus PCB blanks are the preferred hobbyist material primarily
>because we have no alternative, other than wirewrap and point to point.
> The special foil used here is US$45 for 5 8x10" sheets and US$80 for
10
>8x10" sheets, and this method has very little waste, one sheet can make
>several smaller boards.  Convenience, ease of use, and final results
count
>for a lot.  This method doesn't require a darkroom, exposures, UV light
>source, or any chemicals except the etchant.  Plus there is no time
>required for drilling, and aligning both sides of a double sided board
is a
>snap.  Anybody with just a laser printer can use this method, and a
copier
>will work well too if you don't use prepunched perfboard (it's hard to
get
>perfect 1:1 copying on any copier).

You indicate that no required drilling is needed.  Just how does this
work?
I haven't been following this thread but if I can make PC boards without

any drilling with my laser at home I'm interested...

-------------------------------------------------
Work all day & night,
deliver on time & on budget,       Regards,
and justice for all...             Bill Bryson

1997\10\01@133219 by lilel

flavicon
face
> print directly on copper from laser printer....

Can someone post a phone number for the people who sell this stuff?
Can't find Novemeber Electronics Now.  What's the name of the
company?


Best Regards,

Lawrence Lile

1997\10\01@135438 by Martin R. Green

picon face
Sorry, no phone #.  The product name is Z-Flex foil, manufactured by:

Courtaulds Performance Films,
PO Box 5068
Martinsville,
VA, 24115
USA

The manufacturer only sells to companies, and only in 24" x 100' rolls.
You can buy 5 8x10" sheets (ZF-5) for US$45 or 10 8x10" sheets (ZF-10) for
US$80, presumably from the author's company:

Lancelot
PO Box 541005,
Meritt Island,
FL, 32954
USA

For either 5 or 10 sheets add US$3 for priority shipping to US or CANADA.
PA residents add applicable tax.  Check or MO only.

I guess you need to contact them first for shipping info if you live
outside NA.


CIAO - Martin R. Green
TakeThisOuTelimarRemoveMEspam@spam@bigfoot.com

----------
From:   Lawrence Lile[SMTP:EraseMElilelRemoveMEspamtoastmaster.com]
Sent:   Wednesday, October 01, 1997 8:31 AM
To:     spamPICLIST.....spamspammitvma.mit.edu
Subject:        Re: [OT] A new way to make PCB's

> print directly on copper from laser printer....

Can someone post a phone number for the people who sell this stuff?
Can't find Novemeber Electronics Now.  What's the name of the
company?


Best Regards,

Lawrence Lile

1997\10\01@144133 by lilel

flavicon
face
> Sorry, no phone #.  The product name is Z-Flex foil, manufactured
> by:
>
> Courtaulds Performance Films,
> PO Box 5068
> Martinsville,
> VA, 24115
> USA
>
Phone # is 540-627-3000.  They DO sell small quantities.  I will
recieve more info tomorrow.



> Lancelot
> PO Box 541005,
> Meritt Island,
> FL, 32954
> USA
This company has no phone listing.

Best Regards,

Lawrence Lile

1997\10\01@152053 by David W. Duley

picon face
In a message dated 97-10-01 14:00:52 EDT, you write:

<<
Sorry, no phone #.  The product name is Z-Flex foil, manufactured by:

Courtaulds Performance Films,
PO Box 5068
Martinsville,
VA, 24115
USA

The manufacturer only sells to companies, and only in 24" x 100' rolls.
 You can buy 5 8x10" sheets (ZF-5) for US$45 or 10 8x10" sheets (ZF-10) for
US$80, presumably from the author's company:

Lancelot
PO Box 541005,
Meritt Island,
FL, 32954
USA

For either 5 or 10 sheets add US$3 for priority shipping to US or CANADA.
 PA residents add applicable tax.  Check or MO only.
 >>
HOLY COW!
This system is a bit pricy for me.  I get all the scrap PC blanks I can carry
from the local PCB house for free and I use Silicon treated mylar to print
and transfer the images. I routinely make double sided PCBs with 15 mil
traces.  It works picture perfect every time.  Screw Ironing.  I use a rubber
mat heater and heat the board not the mylar.  I rub the image on with a small
paint roller.  After a few minutes of rubbing, I remove the hot PCB and swab
the backside of the mylar with a paper towel moistened with ice water.  The
mylar falls off of the PCB.  It is very unusual that I even have to touch up
a trace.
My company uses the mylar for our product so I even get all the mylar I need
for free.
Hard to beat that sort of economics.

Dave Duley

1997\10\01@185414 by Randy Howe

flavicon
face
Qutie a novel idea. Sounds like you could make PCBs shaped like a drum if
you wanted to (glue the etched film to an empty toilet paper roll ?). Might
be useful for LED displays or something.

Might be useful for multi-layer boards. I guess you would have to solder
components to the first layer, then add another layer and solder to it, etc.

Randy Howe
Axiak Electronic Design Ltd.
email: rhowespam_OUTspam@spam@axionet.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin R. Green <.....elimarspamspam.....BIGFOOT.COM>
To: PICLISTKILLspamspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU <EraseMEPICLIST@spam@spam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Wednesday, October 01, 1997 7:56 AM
Subject: Re: [OT] A new way to make PCB's



>Nope, not one of those iron-on things.  This is apparently a special very
>flexible foil on a thing plastic backing that is run directly thru your
>laser printer, then etched, all before being affixed to the PCB or
>perfboard material with adhesive>

1997\10\02@002753 by tjaart

flavicon
face
>
> (feeling a little uncomfortable about running foil through my HP3)

How can a conductive foil be used in a xerographic process?
(Wet a small section in the middle of a page and try to print on it)

--
Friendly Regards

Tjaart van der Walt
@spam@tjaartspamspamKILLspamwasp.co.za
_____________________________________________________________
| WASP International http://www.wasp.co.za/~tjaart/index.html |
|       R&D Engineer : GSM peripheral services development    |
|   Vehicle tracking | Telemetry systems | GSM data transfer  |
|    Voice : +27-(0)11-622-8686 | Fax : +27-(0)11-622-8973    |
|              WGS-84 : 26010.52'S 28006.19'E                 |
|_____________________________________________________________|

1997\10\02@003413 by tjaart

flavicon
face
Randy Howe wrote:
>
> Qutie a novel idea. Sounds like you could make PCBs shaped like a drum if
> you wanted to (glue the etched film to an empty toilet paper roll ?). Might
If the PCB doesn't work, you can always re-use it in the toilet <VVVBG>

--
Friendly Regards

Tjaart van der Walt
spamBeGonetjaartRemoveMEspamEraseMEwasp.co.za
_____________________________________________________________
| WASP International http://www.wasp.co.za/~tjaart/index.html |
|       R&D Engineer : GSM peripheral services development    |
|   Vehicle tracking | Telemetry systems | GSM data transfer  |
|    Voice : +27-(0)11-622-8686 | Fax : +27-(0)11-622-8973    |
|              WGS-84 : 26010.52'S 28006.19'E                 |
|_____________________________________________________________|

1997\10\02@013736 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
> Qutie a novel idea. Sounds like you could make PCBs shaped like a drum if
> you wanted to (glue the etched film to an empty toilet paper roll ?). Might

I have some somewhat conventional PCB material from one of the local surplus
places that is fexible enough to roll into a cylinder about 1/2 inch in
diameter.  I think it's some fancy dielectric aimed at RF applications,
since there's a sticker on it that says it's from the microwave materials
division of Rogers Corp.  "RT/Duroid", whatever that is.

BillW

1997\10\02@050154 by Tom Handley

picon face
  Martin, I've also read the same article. I normally use point to point
soldered prototypes. I don't have a Laser printer but I do have an Epson
Stylus Color ink jet and I was wondering if anyone has used ink jets with
this or other similar methods? The printer is fairly accurate as far as
dimensions. Thanks,

  - Tom

At 09:26 AM 10/1/97 -0400, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1997\10\02@092213 by Martin R. Green

picon face
Yeah, I thought of that too, but I haven't figured out how you would join
the layers where you want electrical contact, since the foil has a thin
plastic backing, and I think it would be very difficult to remove small
areas around the pads.  It is certainly simple to make 2 layer boards with
this method.

CIAO - Martin R. Green
RemoveMEelimarKILLspamspamRemoveMEbigfoot.com

----------

<SNIP>

Might be useful for multi-layer boards. I guess you would have to solder
components to the first layer, then add another layer and solder to it,
etc.

Randy Howe
Axiak Electronic Design Ltd.
email: TakeThisOuTrhowespamaxionet.com

1997\10\02@092953 by Martin R. Green

picon face
A lot of the questions about this would be answered if you go get the
November issue of Electronics Now.  The foil is "pre-etched" for a couple
of minutes to prepare the surface to accept the toner, then cleaned when
finished with xylene and a light brushing with fine steel wool.


Martin R. Green
spamBeGoneelimarKILLspamspamTakeThisOuTbigfoot.com

----------
From:   Tjaart van der Walt[SMTP:EraseMEtjaart.....spamKILLspamwasp.co.za]
Sent:   Thursday, October 02, 1997 12:28 AM
To:     spamPICLISTspammitvma.mit.edu
Subject:        Re: [OT] A new way to make PCB's

>
> (feeling a little uncomfortable about running foil through my HP3)

How can a conductive foil be used in a xerographic process?
(Wet a small section in the middle of a page and try to print on it)

--
Friendly Regards

Tjaart van der Walt
tjaartSTOPspamspamwasp.co.za
_____________________________________________________________
| WASP International http://www.wasp.co.za/~tjaart/index.html |
|       R&D Engineer : GSM peripheral services development    |
|   Vehicle tracking | Telemetry systems | GSM data transfer  |
|    Voice : +27-(0)11-622-8686 | Fax : +27-(0)11-622-8973    |
|              WGS-84 : 26010.52'S 28006.19'E                 |
|_____________________________________________________________|

1997\10\02@095351 by Alan G. Smith

flavicon
face
Unfortunately, I can't find this magazine for sale around here.
Can I get anyone to mail me a copy?  I'll send you a check for the
magazine and your postage.  Send me PRIVATE e-mail if you can /will
do this.

Thanks,

Alan G. Smith

+---------------
| Alan G. Smith
| agsSTOPspamspamKILLspampoboxes.com
| http://www.innovatus.com/ags

On Thu, 2 Oct 1997, Martin R. Green wrote:

{Quote hidden}

1997\10\02@104143 by Martin R. Green

picon face
OK, I give, I'll scan this article in the next couple of days.  Anyone out
there willing to post this on their web site so I don't have to email it
umpteen times?


CIAO - Martin R. Green
spam_OUTelimarspamTakeThisOuTbigfoot.com

----------
From:   Alan G. Smith[SMTP:.....innovate.....spamRemoveMEINNOVATUS.COM]
Sent:   Thursday, October 02, 1997 9:37 AM
To:     spam_OUTPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu
Subject:        Re: [OT] A new way to make PCB's

Unfortunately, I can't find this magazine for sale around here.
Can I get anyone to mail me a copy?  I'll send you a check for the
magazine and your postage.  Send me PRIVATE e-mail if you can /will
do this.

Thanks,

Alan G. Smith

+---------------
| Alan G. Smith
| EraseMEagsspamBeGonespamKILLspampoboxes.com
| http://www.innovatus.com/ags

On Thu, 2 Oct 1997, Martin R. Green wrote:

{Quote hidden}

1997\10\02@105137 by )

flavicon
face
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the process we're talking about here
a hobbyist version of a commercial PCB process called dry film mask (or
something like that)?

If you laminate the film copper side up (or out) then you could still do
plated through holes just like on an ordinary copper clad board.
Actually, with this process, "home-brew" multi-layer boards could
probably be done.



Frank Richterkessing

KILLspamFRANK.RICHTERKESSINGspamTakeThisOuTAPPL.GE.COM

1997\10\02@110134 by Philip Restuccia

flavicon
face
> OK, I give, I'll scan this article in the next couple of days.  Anyone out
> there willing to post this on their web site so I don't have to email it
> umpteen times?

Ummmm, Martin; I'm pretty sure this would be a violation of Electronics Now's
copyright. I'd suggest you get their permission before doing this.

       Philip Restuccia
       TakeThisOuTphilip.restucciaspamspam_OUTperi.com

>
>
> CIAO - Martin R. Green
> RemoveMEelimarspamspamSTOPspambigfoot.com
>

1997\10\02@140444 by Martin R. Green

picon face
Actually, I think you are right, which is the main reason I resisted
posting the article in the past, but in a weak moment I offered to scan it
for the list members.  I'm afraid I'll have to rescind that offer.

C'mon folks, Electronics Now is not a difficult magazine to find on the
newsstand, maybe the foreign PICLIST members will have to wait a little
longer till it appears on the shelves, but this is the best selling US
hobbyist mag on the market, and it is the current issue, most members of
this list should be able to find it.

If not, contact the publisher (http://www.gernsback.com) or check your
local library.


CIAO - Martin R. Green
.....elimarEraseMEspambigfoot.com

----------
From:   Philip Restuccia[SMTP:spamBeGonephilip.restucciaspamRemoveMEPERI.COM]
Sent:   Thursday, October 02, 1997 11:03 AM
To:     .....PICLISTEraseMEspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject:        Re: [OT] A new way to make PCB's

> OK, I give, I'll scan this article in the next couple of days.  Anyone
out
> there willing to post this on their web site so I don't have to email it
> umpteen times?

Ummmm, Martin; I'm pretty sure this would be a violation of Electronics
Now's
copyright. I'd suggest you get their permission before doing this.

       Philip Restuccia
       spamphilip.restucciaspam_OUTspam@spam@peri.com

>
>
> CIAO - Martin R. Green
> spamelimar@spam@spamSTOPspambigfoot.com
>

1997\10\02@173659 by lilel

flavicon
face
> print directly on copper/film laminate and place or perfboard....

I recieved a flyer from Courtaulds Performance FIlms.  It seems the
intended purpose of this stuff is for making flexible ciecuits, and
clever prototypers have adapted it for use in laser printers.

I will contact them about pricing and details tomorrow.


Best Regards,

Lawrence Lile

1997\10\03@010215 by Scott Stephens

picon face
>To: spamBeGonelilelspamBeGonespam@spam@toastmaster.com
>From: Scott Stephens <RemoveMEstephensRemoveMEspamRemoveMEenteract.com>
>Subject: Re: [OT] A new way to make PCB's
>
>Around 5/14/97 I read some threads, sci.electronics, about laser printing
on foil, which prompted be to write the following I entitled "NEW DIY PCB
PROTO TECH. - Printing directly on metal foil?!?"
>
>DeJa news may have it and some others reply's. Here its again, FIY
>
>***********************
>
> I've been reading a some threads on these newsgroups on toner transfer for
fine pitch SMT and printing on metal foil. I tried it in my Epson Action
Laser II, and it worked good!
>
>Getting a SMOOTH piece of Al (Aluminum) foil, I folded it over a piece of
paper and fed it into the manual paper feed slot. I took care that no
wrinkles would scratch the drum! The transfer and fusing worked great!
Unlike others results (dirty foil maybe?) the toner did not rub off. Inspite
of the fact that, logicaly, it shouldn't work.
>
>The significance of this is:
>1. Print a reverse circuit image (toner around trace) on the foil.
>
>2. Copper plate the aluminum foil. Very cheap, fast & simple (if not dirty)
>
>3.With adhesive, glue the foil to a substrate. No doubt the hard part.
>I'm thinking of perfboard (I hate drilling!) Mylar (MULTILAYER BOARDS!!!
Tooo coool!) or shitty old G10.
>
>4. Etch the aluminum off, resulting in copper traces remaing behind.
>
>No more expensive Mylar sheets & half transfered ironed toner. But best
yet, by using multiple sheets, you might be able to do decent multi-layer
boards. Via's would be made by punching holes before laminating the foil to
the plastic. Copper traces extend over the hole, which would get filled with
solder paste. I can't wait to try it!
>
>But don't blame me if you mess up your toner drum, I bet Al foil will
scratch it up real good. And a neg. image will use lots of toner. But should
still be far cheaper, easier, and more powerfull than current iron on crap,
which never worked well for me.
>

1997\10\03@012535 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face
Now, if your PC boards are small enough, there's no shortage whatsoever
of assorted self-adhesive copper "tapes" up to about an inch wide, designed
for everything from RF shielding to snail repellant...  I wouldn't be very
comfortable running it through MY laser printer, though...


   >2. Copper plate the aluminum foil. Very cheap, fast & simple
   >
   >4. Etch the aluminum off, resulting in copper traces remaing behind.

I think you can "electroless plate" copper on aluminum, ie you just dip Al
in a suitable solution and it comes out copper plated, no electricity
involved.  In this case, you can glue and etch the Al first, and only plate
what's left (maybe.)

BillW


'No PIC required to make a super-intelligent home'
1997\11\24@135259 by Glenn Johansson
flavicon
face
A note on "intelligent houses" - you can have a lot of neat functionality without having to link all your appliances together in a network with PIC's. Fingerprint detectors instead of door keys, photodiode-controlled taps, IR-detectors that turn on the light when you enter the room, sprinklers that start automatically when the soil is not damp enough, outdoor lights that turn on when it's dark outside, garage door openers that open when the car is present, etc. I don't see the need for X-10 networks and stuff like that, though. All the gadgets required to make a cool home is already on the market - no need for PIC's etc.

Regards,
Glenn
Sweden


'YOU ALL MAKE ME FEEL LIKE A GENIUS !!'
1997\12\17@064313 by Paul Drummond
flavicon
face
How about a little thought before asking questions...Really sometimes l am
suprised that some of you got the wrapper off your programmer and
documentation...What l hear you say..."Are those books the
documentation...??" Yes they are and you can read them if you really try...

I am sick off constantly downloadin all this shit...BYE!

Genuine questions only for gods sake

1997\12\17@080043 by Paul BRITTON

flavicon
face
Paul Drummond <genieKILLspamspamspamERGO.COM.AU> wrote:

>
>How about a little thought before asking questions...Really sometimes l
am
>suprised that some of you got the wrapper off your programmer and
>documentation...What l hear you say..."Are those books the
>documentation...??" Yes they are and you can read them if you really
try...
>
>I am sick off constantly downloadin all this shit...BYE!
>
>Genuine questions only for gods sake

BAH HUMBUG..What happened to peace and goodwill to all men, at Christmas?
It can be daunting, starting out using anything new, some people aren't so
self confident as you obviously are, it doesn't mean that they are stupid,
and some words of encouragement/reassurance from people here can make all
the difference, to whether they succeed or fail...Maybe the list should be
split into two:
       Those willing to help other people
and     those who aren't



HAPPY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE.....PAUL!

1997\12\17@111255 by Geoff Wootton

flavicon
picon face
On Wed, 17 Dec 1997, Paul Drummond wrote:

>
> I am sick off constantly downloadin all this shit...BYE!
>
> Genuine questions only for gods sake
>

Carl Liddick re-incarnate - sadly missed

1997\12\17@114740 by DREITEK

picon face
In a message dated 97-12-17 07:26:14 EST, you write:

<<
How about a little thought before asking questions...Really sometimes l am
suprised that some of you got the wrapper off your programmer and
documentation...What l hear you say..."Are those books the
documentation...??" Yes they are and you can read them if you really try...

I am sick off constantly downloadin all this shit...BYE!

Genuine questions only for gods sake
 >>
Then Don't!
I would think a genius could spell the word "OF" though. :)

Dave Duley

1997\12\17@120233 by Raak, Cory

flavicon
face
In America it was your choice to sign up and your choice to leave, I
could care less that the list upset you, deal with it!!!

{Quote hidden}

1997\12\17@130132 by Keith Howell

flavicon
face
Can we all assume Genius has left the building?

Perhaps we should discuss motorising our propeller beanies to cool our hot
heads.
Rather like revolving bow ties, only less sophisticated.

A solar powered one might even be nerdy enough to get you
thrown out of a Star Trek convention though!

1997\12\17@155623 by Bruce Cannon

flavicon
face
At 10:45 PM 12/17/97 +1100, you wrote:
>How about a little thought before asking questions...Really sometimes l am
>suprised that some of you got the wrapper off your programmer and
>documentation...What l hear you say..."Are those books the
>documentation...??" Yes they are and you can read them if you really try...
>
>I am sick off constantly downloadin all this shit...BYE!
>
>Genuine questions only for gods sake
>
>

And those manuals are SO well written, that searching for the answers you
need to a sticky problem is a pleasure in and of itself!

The thing that's really a pain to download is all the complaints.

Bruce

1997\12\17@210936 by patrick_roberts

flavicon
face
Paul Drummond wrote:
>
> How about a little thought before asking questions...Really sometimes l am
> suprised that some of you got the wrapper off your programmer and
> documentation...What l hear you say..."Are those books the
> documentation...??" Yes they are and you can read them if you really try...
>
> I am sick off constantly downloadin all this shit...BYE!
>
> Genuine questions only for gods sake
You holy thn thou self rightous ass!!!!!!!!
Who said that questions are based upon your knowledge level. Some of are
here to learn as a hobby. This is an open forum for Everyone. If you
want a hardcore mail list you are free to start one yourself.

PR
PR


'Getting a PIC really HOT!! or What will make a PIC'
1998\01\16@195843 by anick
flavicon
face
I received one of our units back from a customer of ours abd the pic was
completly destroyed. The location where the die is/was was all burned
and such. It is suspected of being put in a mircowave oven.

The PIC is a SMT version of the 16C57 and is operated from a 4-cell
ni-cad battery pack, all mounted inside a high-impact ABS plastic case.
The unit is a handheld device and designed for being bumped and banged
around somewhat.

I will get a picture of it, and post it to my website.

Alan Nickerson

1998\01\18@030643 by anick

flavicon
face
This is a manufactured device, made is batches of 100's.
This is the only one that has been returned in this condition.

Batteries have been installed wrong, but the unit just stops working
when the batteries fail. Others have had screwdrivers, pens and other
things put throught them, but the PIC has yet to explode.

I'll be able to get a picture of the device next week. Both a working
unit and the one that has been destroyed.

Alan Nickerson

1998\01\20@121850 by )

flavicon
face
Alan Nickerson Wrote:

> I received one of our units back from a customer of ours abd the pic
> was
> completly destroyed. The location where the die is/was was all burned
> and such. It is suspected of being put in a mircowave oven.
>
To give you an alternate view on that failure mode, I have an old and
used digital panel meter from a batch that I picked up at a hamfest some
years back. There's a 7474 on the front PCB with the LEDs. As I was
testing them out I noticed that this one would work fine for about five
minutes or so and then call it quits. The die area of the 7474 gets so
hot that it actually blows a bubble on the plastic package! Let it cool
down and it will work again. It seems odd that it would work at all with
some sort of defect that would get the chip that hot. Too much trouble
to get the thing apart to find the problem. I haven't blown a bubble
with a PIC, but I have had one (due to an oops of a wiring error) get
hot enough that I managed to burn my finger on it (badly). After I
corrected my oops and it cooled down, I continued to use it as my
development PIC without any problems.

-Frank


Frank Richterkessing

KILLspamFRANK.RICHTERKESSING.....spamTakeThisOuTAPPL.GE.COM

1998\01\20@232602 by anick

flavicon
face
Well The PIC in this case go so hot that the case is missing around the
die area. You can actually see the the die or whats left of it.
I forgot to take the board to work so I could get a picture of it. I'll
try and do it tomorrow.


Richterkessing, Frank H (GEA, 055132) wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1998\01\21@053734 by Steve Lawther

flavicon
face
    Sounds like the PIC got into latch-up somehow, and the Ni-Cad's low
    impedance help the PIC into oblivion. I've no idea what impedance a
    latched up PIC has, but it must be sub-ohm. What size Nicads were
    they?
   
       Steve Lawther


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject:      Re: Getting a PIC really HOT!! or What will make a PIC
Author:  MIME:spam_OUTanickRemoveMEspam.....IVERSOFT.COM at INTERNET-HUSKY
Date:    21/01/98 08:26


Well The PIC in this case go so hot that the case is missing around the
die area. You can actually see the the die or whats left of it.
I forgot to take the board to work so I could get a picture of it. I'll
try and do it tomorrow.
   
   
Richterkessing, Frank H (GEA, 055132) wrote:
{Quote hidden}


'Cheap PCB makers'
1998\02\27@174032 by casmith
flavicon
face
Hello yall,
   can anyone here in the U.S.A recommend a reasonable PCB
manufacturer that I can use. I'm in Massachusetts. I'm tired
of soldering :) and would like to have boards made if cheap
enough...

Cary

1998\02\27@185339 by ndie Ohtsji [4555]

flavicon
face
Same for CANADA.....any recommendations (CANADA/USA $ exchange rate is
awful, not to mention customs charges, duty and other taxes)


-Randie (I'm in British Columbia)
spamrohtsjispam_OUTspamglenayre.com


> From STOPspamcasmithspam_OUTspamspamBeGoneLYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU Fri Feb 27 14:42:11 1998
>
> Hello yall,
>     can anyone here in the U.S.A recommend a reasonable PCB
> manufacturer that I can use. I'm in Massachusetts. I'm tired
> of soldering :) and would like to have boards made if cheap
> enough...
>
> Cary
>

1998\02\27@185341 by John Ellenz

picon face
Cary,

I have had good luck with Alberta Printed Circuits in Canada.  For two
layer boards with no mask you can get a half dozen 3"x4" or so boards
for around $75 American.  Try http://www.apcircuits.com.

John Ellenz


'Cheap PCB makers'
1998\03\02@102509 by casmith
flavicon
face
Thanks for the replys guys.. I am checking out Alberta.... Has anyone
heard of a company called Advanced Microcircuits.. I have been trying to
find their web pafge they are PCB makers in California... Cheap I have
been told..

Cary

John Ellenz wrote:

> Cary,
>
> I have had good luck with Alberta Printed Circuits in Canada.  For two
> layer boards with no mask you can get a half dozen 3"x4" or so boards
> for around $75 American.  Try http://www.apcircuits.com.
>
> John Ellenz

'Trying to make "SHIFTIN" code'
1998\03\05@214318 by Iliana & James Holbrook

flavicon
face
I'm pretty new to this so bear with me.
Here is a snippet of code that I have come up with to
immulate the "SHIFTIN" function of the Basic Stamp 2
A professional opinion would be appreciated
Routine follows:

       movlw   0x08            ; set for 8 bits
       movwf   count
       clrf    Byte_in         ; set to all 0's
       clrc
IN      bsf     clk             ; set clock pin high
       nop                     ; may not need these
       nop                     ; don't want to over speed
       btfsc   Data_pin        ; Is bit 1 or 0 ?
       setc                    ; set carry if it is 1
       rlf     Byte_in         ; MSB first, data in
       bcf     clk             ; clock low
       decfsz  count           ; done 8 bits ?
       goto    IN              ; no
       return

It looks to me like it will work but I don't have the expertise.
Of course the best would be just to burn it and test it. The
problem is that I have so much more to test that I would like
some code that works to cut down on my fumble fingered
debugging !
       Thanks in advance
       James

1998\03\06@085831 by wwl

picon face
On Thu, 5 Mar 1998 20:42:22 -0600, you wrote:

{Quote hidden}

a slightly smaller version...

 movlw 1               ; end of byte marker
 movwf byte_in
loop
bsf clk
goto $+1  ; 2-cycle NOP (if needed)
clc
btfsc data_pin
sec
bcf clk         ; clear clk as soon as data has been read
                     ; to allow maximum time for clk fall
rlf byte_in
skpc          ; loop until marker bit falls out end of byte
goto loop


if you can arrange for data_in to be bit 0 or 7 of a port, you can
read it into carry using rrf port,w or rlf port,w respectively.

    ____                                                           ____
  _/ L_/  Mike Harrison / White Wing Logic / spam_OUTwwlspamspamBeGonenetcomuk.co.uk  _/ L_/
_/ W_/  Hardware & Software design / PCB Design / Consultancy  _/ W_/
/_W_/  Industrial / Computer Peripherals / Hazardous Area      /_W_/

1998\03\06@135046 by sdattalo

face
flavicon
face
Mike Harrison wrote:
{Quote hidden}

and an even slightly smaller version

   movlw  1
   movwf  byte_in
   clrc
loop
   bsf    clk
   goto   $+1        ;probably mot necessary
   rlf    byte_in,F
   btfsc  data_pin
    bsf   byte_in,0
   bcf    clk
   skpc
    goto  loop


Scott


'[OT] looking for a 75C176 anyone make it?'
1998\04\10@124635 by Harrison Cooper
flavicon
face
subject says it...is there a cmos version of the 75176??  email direct to
EraseMEhcooperspamKILLspames.com


'OT: Does anyone make these?'
1998\05\12@170558 by john pearson
flavicon
face
Thank you for reading;
I made an inline logic level to RS232 level translator with a MAX232
sandwiched between two RJ45 sockets (jacks?). It is great for communicating
with MCU via a PC using phone line cables and plugs. It looks like a phone
line coupler and is powered by the MCU. But, it is not easy to make. I was
hoping that such a device is available to buy. Or, a kit or artwork for a
circuit board is available.
Thanks
John

'MPLAB 3.40 Probelms with own MAKE'
1998\05\21@224348 by Andrew Kalman

picon face
Hi All.

I previously used MP-LAB 3.30 with a UNIX-like MAKE facility and my own
makefile to assemble and link projects with multiple files. It worked very
nicely, and was quite fast. "Build Project" would call my batch file, I
could watch the batch file execute in a DOS window, and MPLAB would "pick
up" the generated HEX file smoothly.

Try as I might, I can't seem to get 3.40 to work with my setup.  I've
created my own .INI and .MTC files, but I can't get past the built-in
dependency checker when I want to build a project.

*** All I want is for "Build Project" to call my batch file, let me watch
its progress in a window, and have MPLAB pick up the resultant .HEX file
and dump it to my PICMASTER. ***

IOW, I want to bypass the MAKE / dependency checking, and have a DOS box
that actually works.

I also tried to use 3.40 with its own built-in MAKE, following the example
in TUTOR.PDF, but I get timeouts while assembling large files, and I'm
unable to fix them by tweaking the DOS box's idle and suspend-on-background
properties. Plus, I'd rather use my own MAKE and manage these things at the
DOS level.

Also, 3.40 is more than 3 times slower in assembling my files within MPLAB
than 3.30 was when spawning a DOS box for my MAKE batch file.

I'm running 3.30 and 3.40 on the same machine (though not concurrently).

Does anyone else work this way? Can anyone help?

Thanks,


___________________________________________
| Andrew E. Kalman, Ph.D.   EraseMEaekRemoveMEspamnetcom.com  |
|        standard disclaimers apply         |
|___________________________________________|

1998\05\22@101945 by Andrew Kalman

picon face
(I posted this Thursday, but never saw it on the list).

Hi All.

I previously used MP-LAB 3.30 with a UNIX-like MAKE facility and my own
makefile to assemble and link projects with multiple files. It worked very
nicely, and was quite fast. "Build Project" would call my batch file, I
could watch the batch file execute in a DOS window, and MPLAB would "pick
up" the generated HEX file smoothly.

Try as I might, I can't seem to get 3.40 to work with my setup.  I've
created my own .INI and .MTC files, but I can't get past the built-in
dependency checker when I want to build a project.

*** All I want is for "Build Project" to call my batch file, let me watch
its progress in a window, and have MPLAB pick up the resultant .HEX file
and dump it to my PICMASTER. ***

IOW, I want to bypass the MAKE / dependency checking, and have a DOS box
that actually works.

I also tried to use 3.40 with its own built-in MAKE, following the example
in TUTOR.PDF, but I get timeouts while assembling large files, and I'm
unable to fix them by tweaking the DOS box's idle and suspend-on-background
properties. Plus, I'd rather use my own MAKE and manage these things at the
DOS level.

Also, 3.40 is more than 3 times slower in assembling my files within MPLAB
than 3.30 was when spawning a DOS box for my MAKE batch file.

I'm running 3.30 and 3.40 on the same machine (though not concurrently).

Does anyone else work this way? Can anyone help?

Thanks,


___________________________________________
| Andrew E. Kalman, Ph.D.   .....aekspamspam_OUTnetcom.com  |
|        standard disclaimers apply         |
|___________________________________________|


___________________________________________
| Andrew E. Kalman, Ph.D.   @spam@aekEraseMEspamspamnetcom.com  |
|        standard disclaimers apply         |
|___________________________________________|

1998\05\22@104736 by Martin Green

flavicon
face
    Your original message did get posted to the list.  The default setup
    for PICLIST is not to send you copies of your own postings.  If you
    want to see them, send a message to LISTSERVTakeThisOuTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU with SET
    PICLIST REPRO in the body of the message.  You can leave the subject
    line blank.


    CIAO - Martin.


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: MPLAB 3.40 Probelms with own MAKE
Author:  pic microcontroller discussion list <RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU> at
Internet
Date:    5/22/98 6:55 AM


(I posted this Thursday, but never saw it on the list).

Hi All.

I previously used MP-LAB 3.30 with a UNIX-like MAKE facility and my own
makefile to assemble and link projects with multiple files. It worked very
nicely, and was quite fast. "Build Project" would call my batch file, I
could watch the batch file execute in a DOS window, and MPLAB would "pick
up" the generated HEX file smoothly.

Try as I might, I can't seem to get 3.40 to work with my setup.  I've
created my own .INI and .MTC files, but I can't get past the built-in
dependency checker when I want to build a project.

*** All I want is for "Build Project" to call my batch file, let me watch
its progress in a window, and have MPLAB pick up the resultant .HEX file
and dump it to my PICMASTER. ***

IOW, I want to bypass the MAKE / dependency checking, and have a DOS box
that actually works.

I also tried to use 3.40 with its own built-in MAKE, following the example
in TUTOR.PDF, but I get timeouts while assembling large files, and I'm
unable to fix them by tweaking the DOS box's idle and suspend-on-background
properties. Plus, I'd rather use my own MAKE and manage these things at the
DOS level.

Also, 3.40 is more than 3 times slower in assembling my files within MPLAB
than 3.30 was when spawning a DOS box for my MAKE batch file.

I'm running 3.30 and 3.40 on the same machine (though not concurrently).

Does anyone else work this way? Can anyone help?

Thanks,


___________________________________________
| Andrew E. Kalman, Ph.D.   @spam@aekSTOPspamspamnetcom.com  |
|        standard disclaimers apply         |
|___________________________________________|


___________________________________________
| Andrew E. Kalman, Ph.D.   TakeThisOuTaekTakeThisOuTspamRemoveMEnetcom.com  |
|        standard disclaimers apply         |
|___________________________________________|


'(OT) Info on a IBC circuit board maker needed'
1998\07\21@182341 by david schmidt
flavicon
face
I bought a used IBC circuit board maker to turn into a PC board
drilling machine. (X Y lead screws, solenoid activated Z stage,
driven by bit banging a PC's parallel port).

I've already wrote all the software to read a drill file and move
to the correct location and drill, but I need to increase the
speed of the spindle motor.

Motor has no markings of any kind.  4" long, 1.25" diameter DC
brush being fed 40VDC.

Anyone have any info on this machine?  Internet search turned up
nothing.

Thanks.
Dave

1998\07\22@024307 by Stuart Olsen

flavicon
face
Dave:

I used to work at a place that had a IBC board maker with solenoid z axis
control. I forget the model, 912 or something. you could adjust the
solenoid power to control the pressure on the board, but not the speed. It
was done in 2 steps I believe. So you could initially press lightly and
after a period of time press harder.
I used the machine alot while I worked their. I know they have all the
manuals etc. I also know that the driver software was not protected with a
dongle, only the software to generate the required files. Even if its not
what you need you may be able to get a copy to see how their own drivers
handled the machine. Anyway you could email MARK BELEC spam_OUTmarkspamspam.....amc.ab.ca to
see if he can help you, I believe that they are still the proud owners of
the machine in question.

later
Stu


At 03:22 PM 7/21/98 -0700, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

're IBC boardmaker info'
1998\07\22@100631 by mark

flavicon
face
Dave:

We have a boardmaker here that was used quite extensively for a number
of years.  It now lays dormant in a storage room.
IBC had gone out of business a few years ago, but support for bits and
parts was available from a company called:

North Bay Marketing
Contact :  Fred Schultheis/Jeff Zaun
Tel:415-258-9999

I haven't dealt with this company for a number of years, so I don't know
if they are still around.

I hope this helps you in some way.

mark


'how do i make money with the pic?'
1998\08\23@044402 by Kent Berry
picon face
I was just wondering is there any way to make money with the pic

1998\08\23@061142 by Mike Ghormley

flavicon
face
Kent Berry wrote:

>  I was just wondering is there any way to make money with the pic

Kent,

I think that the PIC is a great platform from which to make a Buck (or
Guilder, or Pound, etc.).  I have made my money off of the PIC via
consulting, mostly.  I have made several small smart devices for a
variety of customers.

Lately I have branched out to making some products for myself.  I am
working on a chess (game) clock, as well as a couple of other products.
I am also selling a pre-programmed PIC's to a customer as an OEM --
sorta.  I even have a data sheet.

There is a lot of "juice" left in the PIC and about a gazillion things
left to be done with them.  The PIC isn't the ultimate CPU and often it
is not the right choice for a project, but I can't swing a dead cat
without hitting some idea where a PIC would be useful.  So buy or build a
cheap programmer board and get that first LED flashing!  Soon you will be
rolling in the currency of your choice, independantly wealthy, as most of
the members of the PICLIST already are!

Seriously, there is a very good living to be made with PICs.  Let's hear
from some other poeple on this list...

Michael

*************************************************************************When th
e way of the Tao is forgotten, kindness and ethics must be taught.
Men must learn to pretend to be wise and good.  --  Lao Tzu
*************************************************************************

1998\08\23@102257 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Sun, 23 Aug 1998, Kent Berry wrote:

>  I was just wondering is there any way to make money with the pic

imho the guy who claimed that this list's members lack a sense of humor
was wrong.

Peter

1998\08\23@104130 by john

flavicon
face
I guess you could use it to control a printing press.  I hear
counterfietting is a very profitable business!  It even results
in years of free food and accomodation in many cases!  Not to
mention companionship.  ;)

Kent Berry wrote:
>
>  I was just wondering is there any way to make money with the pic

1998\08\23@111657 by White Horse Design

flavicon
face
At 04:41 23/08/98 EDT, you wrote:
> I was just wondering is there any way to make money with the pic

Make and sell things that people want to buy is one way.

Regards

Adrian
---
WWW    WWW   Adrian Gothard
WWW WW WWW   White Horse Design
WWWWWWWWWW   +44-385-970009 (Mobile/SMS), +44-118-962-8913/4 (voice/fax)
WWWW  WWWW   whd.....spam@spam@zetnet.co.uk, http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/whd
---
Developers of GPS satellite-based tracking systems for vehicles/helicopters

1998\08\23@184824 by paulb

flavicon
face
John wrote:

> It even results in years of free food and accomodation in many cases!
>  Not to mention companionship.  ;)

 No, I *really* wouldn't mention the companionship aspect.  Very few of
them have an affinity for the intellectual status enjoyed on the PIClist
and such affinities they do have you may not ... err ... appreciate. ;-)
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

1998\08\24@010652 by wft

face
flavicon
face
Take a number of PICs and make an advanced weapon with personal
shielding properties.

Go to a bank and demand all their money


--
Gus Calabrese    Lola Montes      WFT Electronics
4337 Raleigh Street      Denver, CO 80212
303 964-9670......voicemail         spamBeGonewftspamspam_OUTfrii.com
http://www.frii.com/~wft

Alternate:   791 High Street     Estes Park, CO  80517
if no success with EraseMEwft.....spamfrii.com, try ....
spamwftKILLspamspam@spam@bigfoot.com
then
wftspamspamTakeThisOuTeudoramail.com

1998\08\24@083846 by John Kirk

flavicon
face
Hi!    I have spent the last four months programming a PIC for a new
product.  The company is launching the  product and making noises about
other PIC based products.   I hope to keep on programming here and if I get
enough work then hire other people to help with PIC programming and circuit
design.   So my advice is to call up the engineering department ( don't
bother to talk to anyone else) of every big corporation near you and ask
them point blank: Do you use MicroChip PIC's in your product?   If the
answer is yes then you can make money by helping them with their software
because typically they get an application running, THEN lose the programmer
and the source code.  Good Luck: John Kirk

> {Original Message removed}

1998\08\24@120137 by wft

face
flavicon
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part 0 1504 bytes
<P><FONT COLOR="#916D25"><FONT SIZE=+2>Take a number of PICs and make an
advanced weapon with personal</FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#916D25"><FONT SIZE=+2>shielding properties.</FONT></FONT><FONT
SIZE=+2></FONT>

<P><FONT COLOR="#0F4F15"><FONT SIZE=+2>Go to a bank and demand all their
money</FONT></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=+2></FONT>&nbsp;
<BR>&nbsp;

<P>--
<BR>Gus Calabrese&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Lola Montes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
WFT Electronics
<BR>4337 Raleigh Street&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Denver, CO 80212
<BR>303 964-9670......voicemail&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<A HREF="RemoveMEwftRemoveMEspamfrii.com">TakeThisOuTwft@spam@spam@spam@frii.com</A>
<BR>&nbsp;<A HREF="http://www.frii.com/~wft">http://www.frii.com/~wft</A>

<P>Alternate:&nbsp;&nbsp; 791 High Street&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Estes
Park, CO&nbsp; 80517
<BR>if no success with TakeThisOuTwftspamspamfrii.com, try ....
<BR><A HREF="KILLspamwftKILLspamspamspamBeGonebigfoot.com">spamBeGonewftKILLspamspambigfoot.com</A>
<BR>then
<BR>&nbsp;<A HREF="wft@spam@spamKILLspameudoramail.com">EraseMEwftRemoveMEspam@spam@eudoramail.com</A>
<BR>&nbsp;</HTML>

</x-html>

1998\08\24@165849 by eslight

picon face
Become a microchip reseller :-)


Kent Berry wrote:
>
>  I was just wondering is there any way to make money with the pic

'[OT] Re: how do i make money with the pic?'
1998\08\24@214248 by Eric Smith

flavicon
face
Kent Berry <RemoveMEFUNINTHESspamspamEraseMEAOL.COM> wrote:

>  I was just wondering is there any way to make money with the pic

The most obvious way I can think of would be to hook up the PIC to a large
serial flash memory, and an ink jet printer.  National Semiconductor and
Samsung both used to sell 8 megabit serial flash parts, but I think NS has
dropped them.  Anyhow, a small number of such parts should be sufficient.

You will also need a PC with a color scanner initially to collect the data
for the flash memory.

By the way, you have to be very careful if you do this.  The U.S. Treasury
Department does not have much of a sense of humor, and is likely to send
Secret Service agents to critique your work.  Apparently they don't subscribe
to the belief that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery,

'how do i make money with the pic?'
1998\08\25@032201 by netquake

flavicon
face
Must be a legal one?

>
>  I was just wondering is there any way to make money with the pic

'How to make money with PIKs'
1998\08\26@041523 by Gary Olson

flavicon
face
   I've been lurking on this newsgroup for about six weeks and I've
almost as many app notes and data sheets as I have messages from this
group.   But as smart as I am I cannot understand one thing, which is
why would anyone want to "De-scribe" from a great place like this?!
   Anyway, I would really like to get my hands on a PIK-HEAD T-shirt.
Perhaps a characature of a typical PIK-HEAD with a 16F84 embedded into
his enormous frontal lobe.  Of course we would need a good slogan for
the back.

1998\08\26@050617 by russellh

picon face
Gary Olson wrote:
>

<snip>

>     Anyway, I would really like to get my hands on a PIK-HEAD T-shirt.
> Perhaps a characature of a typical PIK-HEAD with a 16F84 embedded into
> his enormous frontal lobe.  Of course we would need a good slogan for
> the back.

How about "No Respect - Lotsa Apps!"?

Russell Hedges

1998\08\26@071608 by wwl

picon face
>    Anyway, I would really like to get my hands on a PIK-HEAD T-shirt.
>Perhaps a characature of a typical PIK-HEAD with a 16F84 embedded into
>his enormous frontal lobe.  Of course we would need a good slogan for
>the back.
Pic programmers do it one time  ;-)
    ____                                                           ____
  _/ L_/  Mike Harrison / White Wing Logic / STOPspamwwl.....spamnetcomuk.co.uk  _/ L_/
_/ W_/  Hardware & Software design / PCB Design / Consultancy  _/ W_/
/_W_/  Industrial / Computer Peripherals / Hazardous Area      /_W_/

1998\08\27@073911 by Russell McMahon

picon face
Ah - a real way to make money with PICs !!!

I am not an artist (or even near one) but my daughter is. I have a
friend who runs a screen printing business. Maybe there is a demand
for some suitable self deprecating T shirts?

If there was enough demand we could consider making some
:-) :-) :-) :-)

Interested - email me directly (NOT ON LIST) and also comment on what
the design should incorporate. Very likely not a starter but you
never know.

Price? Not really worth finding out until demand was proven but I
would guess between $US10 to $US15 plus postage (the slower the
cheaper). Any takers?

From: Gary Olson <spamBeGonegolsonRemoveMEspamRemoveMEALOHA.NET>

>    Anyway, I would really like to get my hands on a PIK-HEAD
T-shirt.
>Perhaps a characature of a typical PIK-HEAD with a 16F84 embedded
into
>his enormous frontal lobe.  Of course we would need a good slogan
for
>the back.
>

'C programming question on Linux: How to make Flex-'
1998\08\29@084151 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
The question is in the $SUBJ. I have a certain piece of software
(assembler) that uses Flex. The source is ~500-1000 lines and should yield
a 60-70k executable (ok, maybe 120k). There are no static tables, no
recursive mallocs etc.

This code compiles to 350k + dynamic ELF ! I have tried every optimization
flag of the linker and compiler in turn, nada. First I had thought it is
statically linked, but, nada, it's dynamic.

So, before I remove Flex from my horizon permanently, can I have your
opinion on this ?

Peter

PS: The program must be small because it will live on a floppy.

1998\08\31@045324 by Mal Goris

flavicon
face
Peter L. Peres writes:

> The question is in the $SUBJ. I have a certain piece of software
> (assembler) that uses Flex. The source is ~500-1000 lines and should yield
> a 60-70k executable (ok, maybe 120k). There are no static tables, no
> recursive mallocs etc.
>
> This code compiles to 350k + dynamic ELF ! I have tried every optimization
> flag of the linker and compiler in turn, nada. First I had thought it is
> statically linked, but, nada, it's dynamic.
>
> So, before I remove Flex from my horizon permanently, can I have your
> opinion on this ?

Possibly it is full of symbols and/or debug info. Run strip on your
binary to remove them.

Mal
--
Netherlands Foundation for Research in Astronomy
http://www.nfra.nl/~mgoris/
Phone:  +31 521 595 286 (work)                  Fax: +31 521 597 332
       +31 528 274 156 (home)


'BS4 - how to make work?'
1998\09\15@133528 by Bob Blick
face
flavicon
face
Has anyone managed to get the bs4 to work? I've tried  4mhz xtal, serial
in to RA2, serial out from RA3. Activity happens when I download to the
pic, but that's about it.

Is there a special xtal frequency needed?

Also, I tried it on my 386sx thrasher machine... It won't run, "no numeric
coprocessor" :-)

-Bob

1998\09\15@173212 by Don McKenzie

flavicon
face
Bob Blick wrote:
>
> Has anyone managed to get the bs4 to work? I've tried  4mhz xtal, serial
> in to RA2, serial out from RA3. Activity happens when I download to the
> pic, but that's about it.
>
> Is there a special xtal frequency needed?

Yes, I should have pointed out it's the same schematic as the one shown
at:
http://www.dontronics.com/dt101.html

And yes, a 4mhz crystal.
I got it working, but that was about 18 months ago whe I was a lot
younger. :-)

Don McKenzie  @spam@donspamBeGonespamdontronics.com   http://www.dontronics.com

Don's Download Dungeon: http://www.dontronics.com/download.html
For more details, send a blank message to spam_OUTinfospamspamdontronics.com
or spamsimstickspamspamspamdontronics.com or spamBeGonebasicsKILLspamspamKILLspamdontronics.com

1998\09\15@225242 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face
Hi Everyone,

BS4 works great. Must haves: Serial in to RA2, serial out from RA3, and 4
MHz xtal. Not 4.192 MHz(what I had at first grab, did not work).

Does anyone have any more info about this program? Are the other PORTA pins
usable? Source code?

I looked at http://www.sistudio.com and it's blank there.

Thanks again Antti and Don. The local high school kids will be using this
thing for sure.

-Bob

1998\09\16@163411 by Don McKenzie

flavicon
face
Bob Blick wrote:
> BS4 works great. Must haves: Serial in to RA2, serial out from RA3, and 4
> MHz xtal. Not 4.192 MHz(what I had at first grab, did not work).
>
> Does anyone have any more info about this program? Are the other PORTA pins
> usable? Source code?

Sorry, no, and no there Bob.

> I looked at http://www.sistudio.com and it's blank there.

He told me he would have it back running in a week, but I have finally
lost contact with him. Even my bomb proof addresses on him aren't
working as of today.

> Thanks again Antti and Don. The local high school kids will be using this
> thing for sure.

Yes, it's a nice cost effective intro to both Stamps and Pics.

Don McKenzie  TakeThisOuTdonspamspamdontronics.com   http://www.dontronics.com

Don's Download Dungeon: http://www.dontronics.com/download.html
For more details, send a blank message to spamBeGoneinfospamdontronics.com
or EraseMEsimstickEraseMEspamdontronics.com or spamBeGonebasicsspam_OUTspam.....dontronics.com


'[OT] Mist maker'
1998\10\03@090702 by Quentin
flavicon
face
Hi
The Boss and I were at the garden centre today where I saw a small mist
maker. It is a little electric device (size of an ice hockey puc) that sit
in the water and emits mist. Looks very much the same as when you put dry
ice in water.
How does this work? Can it be build?

For the curious one in me (my mother knew from that day I was going to be
trouble when I stripped her alarm clock when I was 5)
Quentin

1998\10\03@092824 by goflo

flavicon
face
Late bloomer, eh?

Jack

Quentin wrote:
> my mother knew ... I was going to be
> trouble when I stripped her alarm clock when I was 5)

1998\10\03@100014 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, Quentin wrote:

> Hi
> The Boss and I were at the garden centre today where I saw a small mist
> maker. It is a little electric device (size of an ice hockey puc) that sit
> in the water and emits mist. Looks very much the same as when you put dry
> ice in water.
> How does this work? Can it be build?

It's got a piezo ceramic or magneto-strictive power ultrasound oscillator
in it that causes the effect. Very easy to make IF you have the power
transducer. This is not your average piezo disc. Also, if you happen to
work with power ultrasound take precautions, this is not good for your
body & eyes, also wear hearing protection.

I think there was a project about such a thing using a normal (large)
piezo disc and some garden variety components in an electronics magazine.
Try to search the web or dejanews for references on 'ultrasonic mist
generator' or 'humidifier'. I don't remember now if it was a cleaner or a
mist generator.

Peter

1998\10\03@115743 by Morgan Olsson

picon face
At 15:02 1998-10-03 +0200, you wrote:
>Hi
>The Boss and I were at the garden centre today where I saw a small mist
>maker. It is a little electric device (size of an ice hockey puc) that sit
>in the water and emits mist. Looks very much the same as when you put dry
>ice in water.
>How does this work? Can it be build?

I once redesigned a simple oscillator for a similar thing.
It was ti make mist of oil for a combustion heat generator.

That thing vas a piezo-ceramic driven mechanic disc resonator.
Piezo disc at the base, and on that a turned metal thing consisting of a
1.5cm disk 1mm thick, and a 2cm pipe 4mm diam, with a oil feeding hole of 1mm.

The piezo drove the pipw some micrometer oscillating axially, making the
disc edge resomnate at some micrometer more amplitude.

The oil flowed very thin on the surface of the disc from the center hole
out to the edge, and from the disc edge it got thorwn out radially like a
fine mist.

Probably this is something like it.
I think maybe the water can be fed to the disc capillary, so no pump is
needed.

A simpler solution is to use a high rpm motor to trotate a disc, but that
dont'give such fine mist.

/Morgan

>For the curious one in me (my mother knew from that day I was going to be
>trouble when I stripped her alarm clock when I was 5)
>Quentin
>
>
/  Morgan Olsson, MORGANS REGLERTEKNIK, SE-277 35 KIVIK, SWEDEN \
\  spammrtspaminame.com     ph +46(0)414 70741     fax +46(0)414 70331 /

1998\10\03@122103 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
> disc, flowing oil

Actually you don't need that. Simply immerse the disc such that it is
covered by the liquid by 1-10 mm. The pulverisation relies on breaking
cavitation bubbles near the surface. About half the liquid 'around' the
bubbles will become aerosol. Of course if the power is not enough a simple
resonator can be used to raise the local field strength as required (as in
Morgan's tube). In this case the assembly needs to be tuned mechanically
for resonance.

Peter

1998\10\03@123939 by Morgan Olsson

picon face
At 19:02 1998-10-03 +0000, you wrote:
...
>Of course if the power is not enough a simple
>resonator can be used to raise the local field strength as required (as in
>Morgan's tube). In this case the assembly needs to be tuned mechanically
>for resonance.
>
>Peter

Actually, the piezo was connected as the resonating part of the oscillator
(through a transformer to increase voltage).
So, no tuning was needed, just some start-up and power optimization.
If I remember correct (it was 15 years ago), the original design was based
on the simple two-transistor classic bistable design, with the primary
transformer winding connected between the collectors.
/Morgan
/  Morgan Olsson, MORGANS REGLERTEKNIK, SE-277 35 KIVIK, SWEDEN \
\  RemoveMEmrtKILLspamspamKILLspaminame.com     ph +46(0)414 70741     fax +46(0)414 70331 /

1998\10\03@130646 by Brian Gracia

picon face
At 03:02 PM 10/3/98 +0200, you wrote:
>Hi
>The Boss and I were at the garden centre today where I saw a small mist
>maker. It is a little electric device (size of an ice hockey puc) that sit
>in the water and emits mist. Looks very much the same as when you put dry
>ice in water.
>How does this work? Can it be build?
>
>For the curious one in me (my mother knew from that day I was going to be
>trouble when I stripped her alarm clock when I was 5)
>Quentin
>
>

It does this using ultrasonics.  I have seen them in pet stores.  Cool looking

Brian

1998\10\03@133841 by Bob Cousins

flavicon
picon face
Quentin wrote:

>The Boss and I were at the garden centre today where I saw a small mist
>maker. It is a little electric device (size of an ice hockey puc) that sit
>in the water and emits mist. Looks very much the same as when you put dry
>ice in water.

Does anyone know if these are available in the UK?

--
Bob Cousins, Software Engineer.
Home page at http://www.lintilla.demon.co.uk/

1998\10\03@140555 by Quentin

flavicon
face
Bob Cousins wrote:

>
> Does anyone know if these are available in the UK?
>
> --
> Bob Cousins, Software Engineer.
> Home page at http://www.lintilla.demon.co.uk/
As someone here told me that I must do a search on it at Deja news. I did
and I found that the discussion was from UK. In one of the posts they
mentioned a place where in the UK.
Thanks to all that replied. What I saw today was a ceramic ultrasonic
resonator. Thinking of getting one.

Quentin

1998\10\03@142659 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, Bob Cousins wrote:

> Quentin wrote:
>
> >The Boss and I were at the garden centre today where I saw a small mist
> >maker. It is a little electric device (size of an ice hockey puc) that sit
> >in the water and emits mist. Looks very much the same as when you put dry
> >ice in water.
>
> Does anyone know if these are available in the UK?

Have to be. They are used in houses heated with electricity to provide the
required humidity for reasonable conditions. Try to look at a catalog from
a heating/electrial appliance supplier. Although I understand that you
have enough natural mist there most of the time ;)

The video/show effect industry suppliers is another place to look at. Mist
generators are sometimes used to provide a 'screen' for laser light shows
over water.

Peter

1998\10\03@185423 by gwaiche

picon face
Hi!

The mist generators used in the special effects industry and
at the disco are based on a radically different technology:

They use a mixture of water and glycol (of course each
manufacturer has its own secret receipe) that drips over
an heated surface.

gael

Peter L. Peres wrote:

> The video/show effect industry suppliers is another place to look at. Mist
> generators are sometimes used to provide a 'screen' for laser light shows
> over water.
>
> Peter

1998\10\04@072715 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Sun, 4 Oct 1998, Gael Waiche wrote:

> The mist generators used in the special effects industry and
> at the disco are based on a radically different technology:
>
> They use a mixture of water and glycol (of course each
> manufacturer has its own secret receipe) that drips over
> an heated surface.

Not the ones I mean. The ones I mean are installed in decorative ponds of
floated on a lake to generate low-lying mist onto which laser light s(and
also normal beam lights) can project images such that the beam(s) are
visible.

Re: glycol, it's actually an oil and it's not very very healthy as far as
i can tell. I did service dubbing videos and U-matics that operate in a
large disco with oil-based mist and I have to say that the layer of gunk
inside the machines was millimeter thick, sticky, and stinking. Th
ewater-based mist is nothing to worry about, excepting corrosion and
electrics operated at 100% humidity.

Peter

1998\10\04@114320 by Morgan Olsson

picon face
> The mist generators used in the special effects industry and
> at the disco are based on a radically different technology:
>
> They use a mixture of water and glycol (of course each
> manufacturer has its own secret receipe) that drips over
> an heated surface.

Someone has told me it is banana (tree?) oil.
/Morgan
/  Morgan Olsson, MORGANS REGLERTEKNIK, SE-277 35 KIVIK, SWEDEN \
\  EraseMEmrtspamBeGonespamspaminame.com     ph +46(0)414 70741     fax +46(0)414 70331 /

1998\10\05@053526 by - Underwater Acoustics Group

flavicon
face
On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, Bob Cousins wrote:
> Quentin wrote:
>
> >The Boss and I were at the garden centre today where I saw a small mist
> >maker. It is a little electric device (size of an ice hockey puc) that sit
> >in the water and emits mist. Looks very much the same as when you put dry
> >ice in water.
>
> Does anyone know if these are available in the UK?

It was recently discussed on uk.d-i-y after someone saw one at a garden
centre in the UK- DejaNews will probably help- it was about a month ago,
probably mentions ultrasonic or mist in the subject header...

Nigel

1998\10\05@092033 by Thurman, Chuck

flavicon
face
This thing is called a "nebulizer" and can be found in the cool mist
humidifiers that you see on sale in drugstores.  I was the product engineer
for these when I worked for Northern Electric, home and health care
division.  The device is a ultrasonic mechanism, and NE bought them from
Japan, the Panasonic group, as I remember as an OEM sort of thing.  The
ultrasonic portion is a thing about the size of the Nickel, a small US bit
of coinage, worth 5 cents.  The actual design of the the transducer is made
by sintering or compressing special metal alloys into a coin shape.  It is
also important to realize that the transducer power head is tilted at a 7
degree angle inside the mount.  Try to find a broken one, "humidifier",
before buying to take apart and play with it........chuck

> {Original Message removed}

1998\10\05@113856 by Matt Bonner

flavicon
face
Quentin (KILLspamqscspamicon.co.za) wrote:
>
> The Boss and I were at the garden centre today where I saw a small mist
> maker. It is a little electric device (size of an ice hockey puc) that sit
> in the water and emits mist. Looks very much the same as when you put dry
> ice in water.
> How does this work? Can it be build?

The bigger question: how does anyone in the Democratic Republic of Congo
(Zaire) know what a hockey puck looks like?
:-)

--Matt

1998\10\05@134903 by gwaiche

picon face
Hi!

I agree Peter. What you state is exactly what I meant:
The the process are very different....

Cheers

Gael


> Peter wrote:

> Not the ones I mean. The ones I mean are installed in decorative ponds of
> floated on a lake to generate low-lying mist onto which laser light s(and
> also normal beam lights) can project images such that the beam(s) are
> visible.
>
> Re: glycol, it's actually an oil and it's not very very healthy as far

1998\10\05@151421 by Quentin

flavicon
face
Matt Bonner wrote:

> The bigger question: how does anyone in the Democratic Republic of Congo
> (Zaire) know what a hockey puck looks like?
> :-)
>
> --Matt
Yes it's something you can use as a projectile to hit somebody in the head
with.
:)
ZA is the international ID for South Africa (from Dutch: Zud Afrika, or
something like that). Yes, we know what ice hockey is, although the weather
is so good we have make artificial ice for it.

Quentin

1998\10\05@173415 by Andy Kunz

flavicon
face
>The bigger question: how does anyone in the Democratic Republic of Congo
>(Zaire) know what a hockey puck looks like?

How did Jamaicans know what a bobsled is? <G>

Andy


==================================================================
Andy Kunz - Statistical Research, Inc. - Westfield, New Jersey USA
==================================================================

1998\10\06@012613 by Barry Cooper

flavicon
face
>Yes it's something you can use as a projectile to hit somebody in the head
>with.
>:)

 Snicker

>ZA is the international ID for South Africa (from Dutch: Zud Afrika, or
>something like that). Yes, we know what ice hockey is, although the weather
>is so good we have make artificial ice for it.

 You say that like it's a bad thing. (g)

   Barry

1998\10\06@060200 by Russell McMahon

picon face
New Zealand has a luge team - maybe the Jamaicans asked us?
(they practice on steep hills with boards with rollers on).
.
       Russell
>>The bigger question: how does anyone in the Democratic Republic of
Congo
>>(Zaire) know what a hockey puck looks like?
>
>How did Jamaicans know what a bobsled is? <G>
>
>Andy
>
>

1998\10\06@095948 by Matt Bonner

flavicon
face
Quentin wrote:
>
> ZA is the international ID for South Africa (from Dutch: Zud Afrika, or
> something like that). Yes, we know what ice hockey is, although the weather
> is so good we have make artificial ice for it.
>
We did the opposite here in Calgary last summer - ski jumping without
snow at Calgary Olympic Park.  If you've ever stood at the top of a 90
metre jump, you'll wonder how anyone could go down one of those things
(on snow or grass).

--Matt

1998\10\06@101238 by Quentin

flavicon
face
Matt Bonner wrote:

> We did the opposite here in Calgary last summer - ski jumping without
> snow at Calgary Olympic Park.  If you've ever stood at the top of a 90
> metre jump, you'll wonder how anyone could go down one of those things
> (on snow or grass).
>
> --Matt

I can only imagine. Grass burns, Ouch!

Quentin

1998\10\06@182033 by Russell McMahon

picon face
Hey - going down is easy, I'm sure - its just the very start that's
hard!
.
-----Original Message-----
From: Matt Bonner <mbonnerspam_OUTspamspamSUNADA.COM>

>We did the opposite here in Calgary last summer - ski jumping
without
>snow at Calgary Olympic Park.  If you've ever stood at the top of a
90
>metre jump, you'll wonder how anyone could go down one of those
things
>(on snow or grass).

'Can I make a macro to specificy (a bit within a by'
1998\10\25@175601 by Ry Lato

picon face
Here is an example

BCF    HELLO,HI

HELLO represents 0x030
HI repesents 0x1

can I make a MACRO to replace that command with

BCF ONEWORD

ONEWORD would represent HELLO,HI or 0x030,1

Why would I wan't to do this?
I have many bit switches in a program I am developing. It gets
tedious keeping track of which bit switches belong to which bytes.
It opens up chances for errors. I would appreciate some help, if there
is a way to do what I am asking. Thanks


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

1998\10\25@180429 by Harold M Hallikainen

picon face
       Though not a macro, I believe you can do this with a DEFINE statement.
It will substitute whatever you specify.  Also, I've done macros similar
to what you're specifying by including the full instruction in the macro.
I have macros called LedGreen, LedYello, LedRed, and LedOff, each of
which contain BSF and BCF instructions.  I don't have to remember which
bit of which port to deal with.  However, when writing code, I generally
have a schematic in front of me, so it's easy to figure out which port
and bit does what.  For internal flags, however, define statements might
be nice to specify the address and bit.


Harold


On Sun, 25 Oct 1998 14:55:40 PST Ry Lato <picky77spamspam@spam@HOTMAIL.COM> writes:
{Quote hidden}

___________________________________________________________________
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Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
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1998\10\25@180846 by Michael Hagberg

flavicon
face
here is a snipit from my code

bit_variables   res     1
#define         water_on_high   bit_variables,0
#define         water_on_low    bit_variables,1
#define         played_song     bit_variables,2

then you can use them like

   btfsc    water_on_low

michael

You may leave the list at any time by writing "SIGNOFF PICLIST" in the
   body of a message to spamBeGoneLISTSERV.....spamMITVMA.MIT.EDU.

{Original Message removed}

1998\10\26@030852 by g.daniel.invent.design

flavicon
face
Ry Lato wrote:
{Quote hidden}

here's how you do your BSF or BCF oneword:

#DEFINE oneword                 one,word
i.e.--
#DEFINE _D0                     GPIO,2
#DEFINE _D1                     GPIO,3


see also below a code section I commonly *.inc into my files,
saves screen space and coding time:

you must EQU the MV1 & MV2 dummy (assembler) variables prior to use.
;M A C R O    D E F I N I T I O N S :     BY GRAHAM DANIEL:
WMOVL   MACRO   MV1,MV2     ; MOVE [LITERAL] INTO [FILE]   2 CYCLES
       MOVLW   MV1
       MOVWF   MV2
       ENDM

WMOVF   MACRO   MV1,MV2     ; MOVE [FILE] TO [FILE]        2 CYCLES
       MOVF    MV1,W
       MOVWF   MV2
       ENDM

BTG     MACRO   MV1,MV2         ; toggle bit of file reg/port
       MOVLW   1 << MV2
       XORWF   MV1,F
       ENDM

regards,
Graham Daniel.


'Anyone know how to make the Microsoft Intellimouse'
1998\11\09@133542 by John Bellini
flavicon
face
Anyone know how to make the Microsoft Intellimouse work in MPLAB?

John B.

1998\11\09@140422 by James Grosbach

picon face
The latest version of MPLAB should work with it.

Also, the latest Microsoft drivers have an option allowing the wheel to be used
even in programs which don't explicitely support it.

James Grosbach
Microchip Technology

____________________Reply Separator____________________
Subject:    Anyone know how to make the Microsoft Intellimouse work in M
Author: .....JBellini@spam@spamSTATPOWER.COM (John Bellini)
Date:       11/9/98 11:33 AM

Anyone know how to make the Microsoft Intellimouse work in MPLAB?

John B.

1998\11\09@145136 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face
Just get the latest Intellimouse driver from the MicroS#!t website. It's
version 2.2 and works fine in everything, not just MPLAB.

-Bob

On Mon, 9 Nov 1998, John Bellini wrote:

> Anyone know how to make the Microsoft Intellimouse work in MPLAB?
>
> John B.
>

1998\11\09@151355 by John Bellini

flavicon
face
I tried looking on the Microsoft web site for new drivers but there web
site is so convoluted with stuff I couldn't find it.

I am currently using MPLAB 3.99.23, but no luck with the intellimouse.

               {Original Message removed}

1998\11\09@154649 by James Grosbach

picon face
This looks like the right place:

http://www.microsoft.com/products/hardware/mouse/driver/default.htm

____________________Reply Separator____________________
Subject:    Re: Anyone know how to make the Microsoft Intellimouse work
Author: @spam@JBellinispamSTATPOWER.COM (John Bellini)
Date:       11/9/98 1:12 PM

I tried looking on the Microsoft web site for new drivers but there web
site is so convoluted with stuff I couldn't find it.

1998\11\09@190327 by ter (Chee Foon Tiang)

flavicon
face
www.microsoft.com/msdownload/intellipoint/intellieng0.asp

Regards,
Peter

>>> John Bellini <JBelliniRemoveMEspamSTATPOWER.COM> 10/November/1998 04:12am >>>
I tried looking on the Microsoft web site for new drivers but there
web
site is so convoluted with stuff I couldn't find it.

I am currently using MPLAB 3.99.23, but no luck with the intellimouse.

               {Original Message removed}

1998\11\10@205921 by Mark A Moss

picon face
My favorite tool for dealing with microsoft products is a large hammer.

Mark Moss
Amateur Radio Operator, Technician, and General Tinkerer


On Mon, 9 Nov 1998 11:39:23 -0800 Bob Blick <spambobspamTED.NET> writes:
{Quote hidden}

Mark Moss
Amateur Radio Operator, Technician, and General Tinkerer

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

1998\11\10@210605 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
At 02:49 AM 11/10/98 +0000, you wrote:
>My favorite tool for dealing with microsoft products is a large hammer.
>
>Mark Moss
>Amateur Radio Operator, Technician, and General Tinkerer

There is an even better way:


                                                           +------+
Intellimouse pins from mini-din -----------------------=   |
                                                   |      |    Your choice
of mains supply
                                                   |      |    voltage
Shield from mini-din-----------------------------------=   |
                                                   +------+



Sean


+-------------------------------+
| Sean Breheny                  |
| Amateur Radio Callsign: KA3YXM|
| Electrical Engineering Student|
+-------------------------------+
Save lives, please look at http://www.all.org
Personal page: http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/shb7
shb7spam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTcornell.edu  Phone(USA): (607) 253-0315 ICQ #: 3329174

1998\11\10@212255 by Dan Larson

flavicon
face
On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 02:49:43 +0000, Mark A Moss wrote:

>My favorite tool for dealing with microsoft products is a large hammer.

No,,, the hammer is for *Intel* products.

Microsoft products are best debugged with a large magnet!

{Quote hidden}

1998\11\11@161833 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
Dan Larson wrote:
>
> On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 02:49:43 +0000, Mark A Moss wrote:
>
> >My favorite tool for dealing with microsoft products is a large hammer.
>
> No,,, the hammer is for *Intel* products.
>
> Microsoft products are best debugged with a large magnet!

 I've heard that some folks are partial to an Oxy-Acetylene Torch plus
'bout a gallon of gasoline;  erases those pesky 1's from CD's, Floppies,
or whatever, does a nice flame-up job on manuals and the like, and slags
obnoxious hardware.  Use the gasoline to soften things up, then the
torch to finish off the nastier bits that won't die no matter how
unwanted <G>

 For really bad cases, I sic Jules, my 18 # cat, on 'em.  A bit of cat
fur & some tongue rasping on a floppy does wonders;  Some nice sand from
outdoors does it in.  Static from his nice long fur nukes CPUs nicely.
Manuals make *great* claw sharpening items, once glued together around
the outside edges <G>  A bit of chewing & it's toast.

 Mark, spammwillisspamspamnwlink.com, OT a bit here <G>

'6 ways to make her want you'
1998\11\11@162948 by N.Elmayan

picon face
         Romancing, wooing, flirting, chasing, hunting - you call it what you w
ant
but there is only one way to a woman's heart. Unfortunately, many of us have
been side tracked by the myth that woman are "complex creature"; they're on a
"different frequency ; there's just no understanding them."  The truth is, if
you're witting and able, there's no simpler thing than winning the heart of
the woman you desire. In six steps, here's how .

Just Say it

Don't beat around the bush-tell her ! Signals may go unnoticed, catchy
come-ons may be misunderstood. Sate it straight and simple. "You're really
nice" is too vague. "I enjoy being with you" may come out sounding like a call
for friendship.  Tell her exactly how you feel and what you hope will be the
outcome. You don't have to sound like Shakespeare to get her attention,
sometimes too many fancy words will send her diving for cover. A little charm
will do it. Remember, this is only the first step.

Take it Slowly

Give her time. If she's slow to respond then she needs time to think about.
Women don't like to be rushed into something they're not sure they want to do.
Tell her she can give you an answer when she's ready. She may be playing
hard-to-get but she may also be looking out for herself.  Be patient, she'll
admire you for it; but don't leave it hanging for too long or she'll think you
forgot about her. Timing is important. Give it a day or two and then make the
call.

Be Sincere

Never lie, exaggerate or say something you don't mean. Remember, women have a
sixth sense, they can smell a rotten egg a million miles away. "You're the
most beautiful women I've ever met" may sound good in the movies but, as much
as they enjoy being complemented, women don't like to be taken as fools. A
simple "I've been thinking of you" will do it. Honesty is the best policy.
She'll remember every word you say so your little white lies may get you into
big trouble. Stick to the truth, it never fails.

Be Strong

Have confidence in yourself and in how you feel. There isn't a woman who will
stand for a man who begs. "If you don't go out with me, I'll kill myself" is
really pushing it. You want her to feel for you, not feel sorry for you. Let
her know you won't give up that easily and she may think again. You want to
show here you're a man who's got his priorities straight, a man who is willing
to work hard for what he wants. Then again, be careful not to be
over-confident; arrogance is a definite turn -off. Telling her "I want you and
I'm gonna get you" would be a sure bet you'll never see her again. Make her
fell wanted, not hunted.

Share with her

It is in a woman's nature to listen analyze, criticize and help out whenever
she can. Open up to her, If she asks how your day went then she wants to know
where you went, who you saw and what you said to them not out of suspicion but
out of a need to know more about you. Tell her about your problems, your
fears, your aspirations and listen to what she has to say.  The romance will
only last so long: you need a firm foundation to build this relationship on.
Give and you will get.

Make her feel Special

She may not be your first love but you have to make her feel that she is. The
name of the game is ATTENTION. You don't have to buy her an $100 bottle of
perfume to turn her head: try a single red rose, a song you heard on the radio
that remembered you of her, a call late at night when you know she's up
working. Women need to know they're not being taken for granted. In public,
control that straying eye; with friends, let her know that her presence is
essential. Make her your priority and you won't be disappointed.





____________________________________________________________________
Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1

1998\11\11@180448 by Steve Smith

picon face
In a message dated 11/11/98 21:37:42 GMT, you write:

<<
          Romancing, wooing, flirting, chasing, hunting - you call it what
you want
but there is only one way to a woman's heart. Unfortunately, many of us have
been side tracked by the myth that woman are "complex creature"; they're on a
"different frequency ; there's just no understanding them."  The truth is, if
you're witting and able, there's no simpler thing than winning the heart of
the woman you desire. In six steps, here's how .

 >>
<Big Snip>

If thats how to impress a woman then here's how to impress a man :-





Come Nude
Bring Beer !!!!!


Sorry Steve.....

1998\11\11@181858 by Alex Thomas

flavicon
face
part 0 229 bytes
<...many pages of stuff deleted...>

What is this? Have I somehow been subscribed to the "Dear Annie" lonely hearts
mailing list?   :^~


Regards,

Alex Thomas
Campbell Scientific Australia
@spam@alexspam_OUTspamcsa.ultra.net.au

1998\11\12@060501 by aya Baptista

flavicon
face
So... where's your PIC question or answer?
Or are you just trying to PICk up someone? :-)

AndrŽ Malafaya Baptista


{Original Message removed}

'Anyone know how to make the Microsoft Intellimouse'
1998\11\12@100057 by Brian Striggow

flavicon
face
Along the same lines, try throwing those AOL cd's in the microwave.  Prop
it up against a coffee mug so you can see the show.  Don't overdo or
you'll irritate spouses or coworkers.

> >   I've heard that some folks are partial to an Oxy-Acetylene Torch plus
> 'bout a gallon of gasoline;  erases those pesky 1's from CD's, Floppies,
>

'[OT] Re: 6 ways to make her want you'
1998\11\12@130846 by Reginald Neale

flavicon
face
>So... where's your PIC question or answer?
>Or are you just trying to PICk up someone? :-)
>
>AndrŽ Malafaya Baptista
>

Yes, someone told him this was a place to PIC up gURLs.

(Groan)

Reg Neale

1998\11\12@133057 by Alice Campbell

flavicon
face
>
> Yes, someone told him this was a place to PIC up gURLs.
>
> (Groan)

snip

speaking as a token gURL, his list wouldnt work anyway.
from my dating days, i had 2 firm principles:
1.  secret admirers are worthless.
2 . never go out with people who dont ask.

back to lurking... so far i havent come up with a problem on my first
pic project that wasnt either a hardware problem or a software
problem.  :-S

alice

'6 ways to make her want you'
1998\11\13@030821 by Radboud Verberne

flavicon
face
>          Romancing, wooing, flirting, chasing, hunting - you call it what
>you want
>but there is only one way to a woman's heart. Unfortunately, many of us
have
>been side tracked by the myth that woman are "complex creature"; they're on
>a
>"different frequency ; there's just no understanding them."  The truth is,
>if
>you're witting and able, there's no simpler thing than winning the heart of
>the woman you desire. In six steps, here's how .


! Step would would be: Don't spend hours on sitting behind you computer
reading Email and writing assambly.  So press th epower button and poweroff
your computer and do some socializing.


>
>Just Say it
>
> Don't beat around the bush-tell her ! Signals may go unnoticed, catchy
>come-ons may be misunderstood. Sate it straight and simple. "You're really
>nice" is too vague. "I enjoy being with you" may come out sounding like a
>call
>for friendship.  Tell her exactly how you feel and what you hope will be
the
>outcome. You don't have to sound like Shakespeare to get her attention,
>sometimes too many fancy words will send her diving for cover. A little
>charm
>will do it. Remember, this is only the first step.
>
>Take it Slowly
>
> Give her time. If she's slow to respond then she needs time to think
about.
>Women don't like to be rushed into something they're not sure they want to
>do.
>Tell her she can give you an answer when she's ready. She may be playing
>hard-to-get but she may also be looking out for herself.  Be patient,
she'll
{Quote hidden}

is
>really pushing it. You want her to feel for you, not feel sorry for you.
Let
{Quote hidden}

whenever
>she can. Open up to her, If she asks how your day went then she wants to
>know
>where you went, who you saw and what you said to them not out of suspicion
>but
>out of a need to know more about you. Tell her about your problems, your
>fears, your aspirations and listen to what she has to say.  The romance
will
>only last so long: you need a firm foundation to build this relationship
on.
>Give and you will get.

Just don't talk about computers or electronics, most women don't understand
you...



{Quote hidden}

'6 ways to make her want you [OT, OT, OT, OT]'
1998\11\13@075848 by Osama ALASSIRY

flavicon
face
At 07:57 13/11/98 , you wrote:
>! Step would would be: Don't spend hours on sitting behind you computer
>reading Email and writing assambly. So press the power button and poweroff
>your computer and do some socializing.

Press the power button??? are you crazy??? I keep my computers on all the time so I don't have to wait for them to boot (I use 2, a P133 at Home and a PII-450 at my office)
they both run 24h/day, the only time they're off is when I add new hardware or there is a power outage!!!


_____________________________________________________
Osama ALASSIRY  osama@qatar.net.qa osama@alassiry.com
                              http://www.alassiry.com

1998\11\13@093941 by Andy Kunz

flavicon
face
> they both run 24h/day, the only time they're off is when I add new
>hardware or there is a power outage!!!

Get a UPS!

Andy


==================================================================
Andy Kunz - Statistical Research, Inc. - Westfield, New Jersey USA
==================================================================

1998\11\13@155425 by Mark Willis

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Andy Kunz wrote:
>
> > they both run 24h/day, the only time they're off is when I add new
> >hardware or there is a power outage!!!
>
> Get a UPS!
>
> Andy
>
> ==================================================================
> Andy Kunz - Statistical Research, Inc. - Westfield, New Jersey USA
> ==================================================================

 How big of a UPS, though, Andy?  <G>  Even a 900 VA UPS will only last
SO long if there's a day-long power outage (One startup I worked for had
been resisting any sort of coding at my house, until they lost power for
2 weeks in a big windstorm ~ 5 years ago...)  Get a UPS & then get a
*Generator*!  Or a huge battery bank <G>

 Myself, I do turn machines off for hardware re-working (too often <G>)
or for lightning storms, and the special-purpose machines that only are
used for 2-3 hours every couple weeks (Backup monster, tech support
machines) get powered off the rest of the week;  the rest stay on <G>
Monitors get powered off sometimes, sometimes not.

 Still need a generator here, myself, though.  It's on the list for
December...

 Mark, .....mwillisspam.....nwlink.com

1998\11\13@170255 by William M. Smithers

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On Fri, 13 Nov 1998, Mark Willis wrote:
>   How big of a UPS, though, Andy?  <G>  Even a 900 VA UPS will only last
> SO long if there's a day-long power outage (One startup I worked for had
> been resisting any sort of coding at my house, until they lost power for
> 2 weeks in a big windstorm ~ 5 years ago...)  Get a UPS & then get a
> *Generator*!  Or a huge battery bank <G>
>

Make sure you check the local ordinance on that - I thought
I was being so clever by having a generator standing by
for emergencies, then two winters ago we had a two day
power outage.  I proudly fired that sucker up, out on
the balcony of my condo, only to have the fire department
show up on my door and make me shut it down within an hour.

I guess a neighbor got jealous...

-Will



{Quote hidden}

1998\11\13@173400 by Mark Willis

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William M. Smithers wrote:
{Quote hidden}

 If you don't have a safe (?crossover?) switch (so you don't power the
line from your generator!) you could accidentally electrocute a lineman
working on the lines, of course (Not desireable.)  Don't DO that, it
annoys the electrical company folks a lot!  And you'd have an easier
time in a house than a Condo, we're in a house here...  Good idea to
check, thanks!  (Thought I'd mention the safety switch before someone
ELSE does, I just would power certain things with a smaller generator,
not wire the whole house, I think.  If Robin needs her asthma nebulizer,
she NEEDS it, if the fire department bugs me then they can help her
breathe without it <G>

 I imagine it might also be a noise issue with the neighbors, as they'd
have to have a window open for circulation.  And beware generator
exhaust, CO is bad bad bad <G>

 Mark

1998\11\14@052222 by paulb

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Mark Willis wrote:

> Monitors get powered off sometimes, sometimes not.

 Old thread.  I don't mind PCs staying on, since they have a double
metal case around the PSU, but monitors go OFF when I am asleep or out.
I consider them *the* major fire risk.

>   Still need a generator here, myself, though.  It's on the list for
> December...

 Noted comments following.  If you live in a hutch, you better resign
yourself to living like a rabbit.  If however you have a basement, you
put the generator in that, with a well-sealed pipe from the exhaust
through the wall and out (away from any doors/ windows/ vents).

 The big trick is that apart from the first metre or so of pipe which
is stainless steel with heat radiator fins, the rest of the pipe (3m)
between muffler and wall is thick *rubber* similar to car tyres.  (4
stroke engine; no oil emission).
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

1998\11\19@090232 by Osama ALASSIRY

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At 07:57 13/11/98 , you wrote:
>! Step would would be: Don't spend hours on sitting behind you computer
>reading Email and writing assambly. So press the power button and poweroff
>your computer and do some socializing.

Press the power button??? are you crazy??? I keep my computers on all the time so I don't have to wait for them to boot (I use 2, a P133 at Home and a PII-450 at my office)
they both run 24h/day, the only time they're off is when I add new hardware or there is a power outage!!!


_____________________________________________________
Osama ALASSIRY  osama@qatar.net.qa osama@alassiry.com
                              http://www.alassiry.com


'Make your PCBs for free!!!!'
1999\01\13@141412 by Gabriel Gonzalez
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Well, there are a few restrictions...

I am going to order about 500 PCBs for one of our projects and I have about
11 sq in of wasted space. If I add something in this area or if I don't
doesn't make a difference in price, so I thought that somebody would be
interested in filling it.

The available area is 8in x 1.45in of 2 sided FR-4 with solder mask and silk
screen.

Restrictions:
   - PCB file should be in EAGLE format. (I don't want to mess with the
generated Gerber files.)
   - Circuit must have a PIC in it (I like'em).
   - Thru-hole components only.
   - Circuit should be made freely available to the public (no commercial
of for profit ventures.)
   - Related software should also be made publicly available for free.
   - Interesting and useful (no blinking leds.)
   - Proposed files must be sent no later than Friday (in America.)
   - Proposed circuits will be selected by me.
   - Schematic should be sent along with PCB and a description of the
circuit and software.
   - No weird holes or drill sizes, just use standard stuff.
   - If necessary I will edit the circuit.

Maybe nobody is interested and I am throwing this to the wind, but if you
are drop me a line.

Gabriel
TGO Electronics

1999\01\13@145813 by John A. Craft

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Anybody got a circuit for that Cockroach dectector/Eliminator yet?

|-)

Jc.

At 11:26 AM 1/13/99 -0700, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1999\01\13@160605 by Alice Campbell

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hi gabriel,

my wish would be for a pile of proto-boards, with 16c84 at one end,
with caps and xtal & ground/vcc buss, 9v batt & rs232 conn. then the
rest done in that 3-pad criss cross pattern, NOT pad-per hole.  could
be distributed to starving students and one-off/two off projects.
about 1 1/2 in x 3in.  i tried wire wrap and hated it.  but pad per
hole is a pain for point-to-point.

sorry, but i have no way to draw up such a thing by friday.

alice



{Quote hidden}

alice

1999\01\13@222531 by Norman Gillaspie

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What you need to do is step and repeat multiple patterns on the same panel
and order less boards.

Norman

"PC-Sat provides quality Usenet Newshosting and Newsfeeds for ISP and
Corporations. Interested see http://www.pc-sat.com"

> {Original Message removed}

1999\01\13@223510 by Don McKenzie

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Alice Campbell wrote:
>
> hi gabriel,
>
> my wish would be for a pile of proto-boards, with 16c84 at one end,
> with caps and xtal & ground/vcc buss, 9v batt & rs232 conn. then the
> rest done in that 3-pad criss cross pattern, NOT pad-per hole.  could
> be distributed to starving students and one-off/two off projects.
> about 1 1/2 in x 3in.  i tried wire wrap and hated it.  but pad per
> hole is a pain for point-to-point.
>
> sorry, but i have no way to draw up such a thing by friday.

Golly, as Gomer Pyle used to say!!!
that almost sounds like a:
http://www.dontronics.com/dt101.html
or
http://www.dontronics.com/dt111.html
simmstick to me.

Doesn't have your preferred 3 pad criss cross however.

Don McKenzie  KILLspamdon.....spamKILLspamdontronics.com http://www.dontronics.com

Don's Download Dungeon:   http://www.dontronics.com/download.html
Australian Electronics Ring http://www.dontronics.com/aering.html

1999\01\14@002817 by Gabriel Gonzalez

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What about a small development board for the new 16F873/6 flash pic?

Any suggestions?

Gabriel
TGO Electr—nica

1999\01\14@071725 by Bob Drzyzgula

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On Thu, Jan 14, 1999 at 02:30:53PM +1100, Don McKenzie wrote:
> Alice Campbell wrote:
> >
> > hi gabriel,
> >
> > my wish would be for a pile of proto-boards, with 16c84 at one end,
> > with caps and xtal & ground/vcc buss, 9v batt & rs232 conn. then the
>
> Golly, as Gomer Pyle used to say!!!
> that almost sounds like a:
> http://www.dontronics.com/dt101.html

Actually, with the dedicated RS-232 site and
the 1.5"x3" dimensions, it sounds more exactly
like the PICproto18 from MicroEngineering Labs
(http://www.melabs.com/mel/pp18doc.gif) with pad-per-hole
changed to the 3-hole pattern. I like the PICproto
boards too, although they'd be a bit easier to work with
if the holes were a full 0.042" and one could easily
(like, without re-drilling and possibly ruining the
through- plating) use the various press-in pins from
http://www.vectorelect.com/.  (Don, what do the holes
in your boards, esp the DT111, finish out to?)  Also, it
seems to me that in a 14x15 pin grid, going to three-hole
pads would be fairly limiting in terms of the circuits one
could build on it; it might get pretty tricky finding ways
to place your parts.

As for what to do with the spare PCB space, one other idea
(assuming no one comes up with an actual ready-to-go
circuit) would be to use them to make boards for some
freely available 16F84 programmer spec, say Myke Predko's
YAP circuit or the COM84, or especially one that is known
to properly handle the F87x parts. If someone would be
willing to handle distribution, they could possibly be
offered to newbies on the list who are trying to figure
out how to get started...


--Bob

--
============================================================
Bob Drzyzgula                             It's not a problem
bobspam_OUTspamspam_OUTdrzyzgula.org                until something bad happens
============================================================

1999\01\14@131659 by Scott Shidel...

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On Wed, 13 Jan 1999, Gabriel Gonzalez wrote:

Hmm, looks you could prolly print the curcuit boards for a YAP prgrammer
in Myke Predko's book for everyoe on the list and then some:)


> Well, there are a few restrictions...
>
>     - Related software should also be made publicly available for free.
>     - Interesting and useful (no blinking leds.)
>     - Proposed files must be sent no later than Friday (in America.)
>     - Proposed circuits will be selected by me.
>     - Schematic should be sent along with PCB and a description of the

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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------------------------------------------------------------------------

'Make your PCBs for free!!!!/YAP/PICLite'
1999\01\14@141116 by myke predko

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Hi Folks,

Sorry I've been quiet on YAP - I really haven't been able to spend too much
time looking at it because of crisis at work.  I do have the "Program"
problem with the non-existent "line feed" after the "carriage return" fixed,
but to "Verify" with this data has been vexing.  These problems are
primarily evident in Windows/98 "Hyperterminal".

There have been some requests for a complete BOM and I will put it on my web
page when I've found the problem with the code.  (Since we're going into the
biggest snowstorm in thirty three years, I think I'll have more than enough
time to find the problem.)

As for putting the design on the card, I'm a bit reluctant because I think
it is very difficult to assembly for beginners and it requires a previously
programmed part to work.  Wirz Electronics has kits ready as soon as we are
comfortable that there aren't any problems with the software and it will run
without any problems.

I will be writing a Visual Basic Windows Front End to avoid the issues that
we have found with the boards.

As for the free cards, I like Alice's idea the best.  I have actually
designed a small PICMicro prototyping card, but the design is in Protel.  I
would be willing to send that information to Scott and it could be used.

I would think the ideal would be a prototyping card with the "COM84"
programmer built in.  I would be happy to design that in Protel/Ultimate.

In the next day or so, I will be putting up an updated version of PICLite.
A problem with arithmetic operations in assembler has been discovered and I
have added a macro parameter checking utility.  I have created a 16C61
prototype for the language as well.  When I get it together, I will add a
Hitachi 44780 LCD controller Macro for the language as well.

I'm still looking for device prototypes and sample applications (and any
problems that you have).

myke

Go on the drive of your life, this week in the book room:

http://www.myke.com/Book_Room/book1a.htm

Now Available!  "Programming and Customizing the 8051 Microcontroller".
Find out more at:

http://www.myke.com/My_Books/pac8051.htm


'Microcode CircuitMaker'
1999\03\01@130221 by David W. Duley
picon face
Hi All!
Someone on the list mentioned that they were using Microcodes CircuitMaker.
My company just bought CircuitMaker Pro and Trakmaker Pro.  Does anyone have
any Circuitmaker Pic or Atmel libraries.  Microcode only provides libraries of
parts that will work with the circuit analysis functions of the program
therfore no microcontrollers.  An oversight on their part in my opinion.

Thanks
Dave Duley
http://www.dreitek.com

1999\03\01@143803 by andre

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David,

I like to know why your company decided to buy
microcode product. the reason I am asking you this because
of I used to have protel dos version then they sold it to
microcode then microcode made it for windows and started
to update.  it doesn't even have measuring tool I have version 2.0
I dumped it. imagine when your boss asked you give me the
dimensions what are you going to do the only way of doing it is by playing
with origin and use calculator to find X and Y . maybe in latest
vesion they added some more tools but I wasn't happy with when
begin with .I am very happy with  pads power pcb and power logic.
see if you can covert protel lib's if yes there are some lib's in protel
web site you can down load.


Andre




David W. Duley wrote:

{Quote hidden}

1999\03\01@174713 by David W. Duley

picon face
In a message dated 3/1/99 11:38:06 AM Pacific Standard Time,
KILLspamandrespam@spam@compufire.com writes:

<< David,

I like to know why your company decided to buy
microcode product. the reason I am asking you this because
of I used to have protel dos version then they sold it to
microcode then microcode made it for windows and started
to update.  it doesn't even have measuring tool I have version 2.0
I dumped it. imagine when your boss asked you give me the
dimensions what are you going to do the only way of doing it is by playing
with origin and use calculator to find X and Y . maybe in latest
vesion they added some more tools but I wasn't happy with when
begin with .I am very happy with  pads power pcb and power logic.
see if you can covert protel lib's if yes there are some lib's in protel
web site you can down load.


Andre


 >>
Hi Andre,
This is a touchy subject with most budget minded engineers.  Most would rather
argue birth control and abortion with the pope than schematic capture and PCB
layout software.  The reason is, so much of the low end (under $1000) software
on the market sucks big wet dog balls.  I started out with IVEX and then on a
recomendation I switched to Mental Automation Super Cad and PCB.  I kept
sending bug reports to the guy that wrote the software.  He would send me a
supposedly updated version that had all the same bugs, a completly different
user interface and the upgrade would hose all of my custom libraries so my
current designs caused general protection faults when I tried to open them!!!!
But I'm not bitter.
I set out to find worthy software.
I downloaded all of the demos.  I had several very simple criteria for
evaluation.  I had a simple PIC based schematic that I would draft (1 PIC 1
Crystal 4 caps and a connector) and then try to make a PCB file.   I also had
to be able to do this without the aid of extensive documentation.
Electronic workbench came up OK but would not allow me to even lay down a
singe trace without  a "Rules violation".
Eagle was easy to draw the scematic but when I autorouted my little design it
did stupid things like route a trace from pin 1 of the pic to the connector
through pins 2,3,4,5,6,7,8 and 9.  Great if you wanted to short all your pins
together!  It connected both pins of the crystal together and routed that to
one of the osc pins on the pic leaving the other osc pin floating.  So...I
abandoned eagle.
I was hesitant to try Ivex again since I was burned heavily several time by
several versions.
MicroCodes demo was the only one that allowed me to create my design and
autoroute it with very little trouble.  Like I said my only complaint is that
there was no libraries for CPUs or micro controllers.  I can, however, create
a simple pic component in 2 or 3 minutes.
My other complaint is the limited import capability of the schematic capture.
It would be nice to have a DXF import where I could at least transfer symbols
or limited constructs.
I did spring for the PRO versions and my copy has a measure function.  I am
using Version 6 of CircuitMaker and Version 3 of TraxMaker.
I will try your suggestion for importing Protels libraries.  My problem is
with the schematic symbols not the PCB footprints.

Thanks
Dave Duley

1999\03\01@200320 by Gabriel Gonzalez

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>Hi Andre,
>This is a touchy subject with most budget minded engineers.  Most would
rather
>argue birth control and abortion with the pope than schematic capture and
PCB
>layout software.  The reason is, so much of the low end (under $1000)
software
>on the market sucks big wet dog balls.  I started out with IVEX and then on
a
>recomendation I switched to Mental Automation Super Cad and PCB.  I kept
>sending bug reports to the guy that wrote the software.  He would send me a
>supposedly updated version that had all the same bugs, a completly
different
>user interface and the upgrade would hose all of my custom libraries so my
>current designs caused general protection faults when I tried to open
them!!!!
>But I'm not bitter.
>I set out to find worthy software.
>I downloaded all of the demos.  I had several very simple criteria for
>evaluation.  I had a simple PIC based schematic that I would draft (1 PIC 1
>Crystal 4 caps and a connector) and then try to make a PCB file.   I also
had
>to be able to do this without the aid of extensive documentation.
>Electronic workbench came up OK but would not allow me to even lay down a
>singe trace without  a "Rules violation".
>Eagle was easy to draw the scematic but when I autorouted my little design
it
>did stupid things like route a trace from pin 1 of the pic to the connector
>through pins 2,3,4,5,6,7,8 and 9.  Great if you wanted to short all your
pins
>together!  It connected both pins of the crystal together and routed that
to
>one of the osc pins on the pic leaving the other osc pin floating.  So...I
>abandoned eagle.


Just a comment...

I can only comment on Eagle since I've been using it for about two years
now,
and for it to do the 'stupid' things you mentioned you must have done
something
really wrong ('stupid' maybe?)...

Regards,

Gabriel Gonzalez
TGO Electronics


>I was hesitant to try Ivex again since I was burned heavily several time by
>several versions.
>MicroCodes demo was the only one that allowed me to create my design and
>autoroute it with very little trouble.  Like I said my only complaint is
that
>there was no libraries for CPUs or micro controllers.  I can, however,
create
>a simple pic component in 2 or 3 minutes.
>My other complaint is the limited import capability of the schematic
capture.
>It would be nice to have a DXF import where I could at least transfer
symbols
>or limited constructs.
>I did spring for the PRO versions and my copy has a measure function.  I am
>using Version 6 of CircuitMaker and Version 3 of TraxMaker.
>I will try your suggestion for importing Protels libraries.  My problem is
>with the schematic symbols not the PCB footprints.
>
>Thanks
>Dave Duley

1999\03\01@202848 by David W. Duley

picon face
In a message dated 3/1/99 4:26:37 PM Pacific Standard Time, @spam@mtdesignRemoveMEspamFAST.NET
writes:

<<
Sorry, Dave.  I still use them and still like them.  They aren't perfect,
but who is?  I've done some pretty tough designs with them and (not using
auto routing) never had a big problem.  Sometimes things get hosed.

Oh, well.

Andy

 >>
Hi Andy,
Don't worry I'm not holding it against you <G>
The thing that irked me was that I went to the trouble of documenting several
major bugs.  I sent at least 5 bug reports by email that went un-answered.  I
called him and, of coarse, you don't get him you get the answering service.
He doesn't call back anymore.  He simply sent an updated version via email.
All the bugs I complained about were still there.  All that was different was
that he screwed up the user interface by making several functions more
difficult to use.
I would rather have less features and less bugs.  Basic things like saving,
loading and parts creation should work flawlessly.  everything else is just
fluff.

Did you catch my article in the march issue of Popular Electronics?

Have a good week

Dave

1999\03\01@203512 by David W. Duley

picon face
In a message dated 3/1/99 5:06:41 PM Pacific Standard Time,
tgo@spam@spamEraseMECHIH1.TELMEX.NET.MX writes:

<<
Just a comment...

I can only comment on Eagle since I've been using it for about two years
now,
and for it to do the 'stupid' things you mentioned you must have done
something
really wrong ('stupid' maybe?)...

Regards,

Gabriel Gonzalez
TGO Electronics >>

I entered the scematic and told it to make me a PCB.  What could be simpler.
Especially a scematic with 7 parts.
You see what I mean about the emotional attachements that engineers have
towards their tools..... <G>

Dave

1999\03\01@211914 by Dan Larson

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On Mon, 1 Mar 1999 16:42:09 -0700, Gabriel Gonzalez wrote:

[SNIP]

{Quote hidden}

I find that Eagle works for the most part.  I am using the OS/2 version with
few problems, but......

I can understand Dave's point of view.  He is looking at how *easily* he could
implement is "benchmark" board.  If he could not get it working correctly it was
probably because Eagle requires a *lot* of patience.  Nothing about that program
stands out without careful analysis of the online help.  It is surely not a very
intuitive user interface.

So far I have only used it fore schematic capture and found the learning curve
very steep.  It looks many hours to figure out how to add a component to my
own library.

I am slowly learning how to use it, but it is not easy.  It seems to be a comman
d
driven program with a GUI slapped incompletely on top.  Many of the features mus
t
be accessed by typing in commands which can only be divined from the online help
.

You sure can't beat it for a free program though!  I am not sure at this point
if I would ever pay for the full version.  I think I would want to look at sever
al
others first since I am not happy with the poorly implemented GUI.

Dan

1999\03\01@215318 by David W. Duley

picon face
In a message dated 3/1/99 6:19:13 PM Pacific Standard Time,
spam_OUTdlarsonspam_OUTspamRemoveMEcitilink.com writes:

<<
I am slowly learning how to use it, but it is not easy.  It seems to be a
command
driven program with a GUI slapped incompletely on top.  Many of the features
must
be accessed by typing in commands which can only be divined from the online
help.

You sure can't beat it for a free program though!  I am not sure at this
point
if I would ever pay for the full version.  I think I would want to look at
several
others first since I am not happy with the poorly implemented GUI.

Dan >>

Hi Dan,
You jogged my memory.  The other thing that I really objected to about Eagle
was the lack of a graphical way to view parts before placement (unless I
missed somthing)  there should be a preview window that shows you what the
part looks like before you place it. Especialy if the part names are the
manufacturers part number.

Best regards
Dave

1999\03\01@235741 by Gabriel Gonzalez

flavicon
face
>Hi Dan,
>You jogged my memory.  The other thing that I really objected to about
Eagle
>was the lack of a graphical way to view parts before placement (unless I
>missed somthing)  there should be a preview window that shows you what the
>part looks like before you place it. Especialy if the part names are the
>manufacturers part number.


I concur with this 100%, and this feature (among many others) will be
available in the next version (4) due later this year.

Gabriel

>
>Best regards
>Dave

1999\03\02@044759 by Madis Kaal

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face
> I can understand Dave's point of view.  He is looking at how *easily* he could
> implement is "benchmark" board.  If he could not get it working correctly it w
> as probably because Eagle requires a *lot* of patience.  Nothing about that
> program stands out without careful analysis of the online help.  It is surely
> not a very intuitive user interface.

I completely disagree with you. Of several CAD demos I tried,
Eagle is definately the most user-friendly. Just two possibilities
come to mind - OS/2 version is probably quite different from
current, 3.55 Windows and DOS version. As for GUI, are you
sure that some of your proglems don't come from the OS you are
running Eagle on? Even more, Eagle has not crashed on me, while
couple of other demos did so in first half and hour or so. I have
a friend who works with OrCAD, and he has adapted a 'save early,
save often' strategy from Space Quest I :)

The component design is actually so simple that instead of browsing
thru all the libraries when the part is not obvious, I just switch to
lib editor and create the part. After going thru each step once or
twice, the only grief is that there is no easy way to check out what
the component actually looks like, unless you place it on the
schematics and switch over to board.

I also suspect that the original poster used 'Wires' instead of
'Nets' to connect components, at least that was the mistake I made.

1999\03\02@075300 by Marc

flavicon
face
> You jogged my memory.  The other thing that I really objected to about Eagle
> was the lack of a graphical way to view parts before placement (unless I
> missed somthing)  there should be a preview window that shows you what the
> part looks like before you place it. Especialy if the part names are the
> manufacturers part number.

Another thing that should be added to EAGLE is the ability to assign different
board packages already in schematics. Currently, you worry about components
when using them in the schematic, and _another_time_ when starting the
board layout (for example replace through-hole by SMT footprints).

Yet another bad thing is the missing back-annotation. It's difficult to
keep track of layout changes in the schematic and vice-versa. Everything
has to be done manually.

1999\03\02@083737 by Andy Kunz

flavicon
face
>I would rather have less features and less bugs.  Basic things like saving,
>loading and parts creation should work flawlessly.  everything else is just
>fluff.

Agreed.

>Did you catch my article in the march issue of Popular Electronics?

No, so now I have to find it on a newstand and buy it!

Andy

  \-----------------/
   \     /---\     /
    \    |   |    /          Andy Kunz
     \   /---\   /           Montana Design
/---------+   +---------\     http://www.montanadesign.com
| /  |----|___|----|  \ |
\/___|      *      |___\/     Go fast, turn right,
                              and keep the wet side down!

1999\03\02@180803 by wruehl

flavicon
face
Guys,
   I went through the same process of trying every SW package related
to EDA I could get my hands on and found that for the money Microcode
could not be beat (for my needs). I have done about 70 or 80 boards with
the package (TraxMaker 2.0 and CircuitMaker 5.0) and there are some
quirks but none of them are major. One that really bugs me is that the
screen image gets all chopped up when moving things around and the only
way to fix it with a manual refresh (should be automatic). I can
generally beat the autorouter for most board layouts, but its nice for
multi layer boards. The simulator works great especially for "dialing
in" 555's and the like. Well that's my 2 cents.


{Quote hidden}

1999\03\03@002810 by erik

flavicon
face
Hi,
I'm the someone who originally mentioned Circuit Maker.
I'm just a hobbyist and chose it over Electronics Workbench due to the
number of components included in the included library.
I'm glad to see that so many others are also using it. (insecurity
issues?)

If you received any personal replies on more component libraries please
forward them to me.
If not, I'll ask the same again.

Erik

David W. Duley wrote:
{Quote hidden}

1999\03\03@052349 by Madis Kaal

flavicon
face
> Marc <RemoveMEmarcspam.....AARGH.FRANKEN.DE> wrote:
>
>Another thing that should be added to EAGLE is the ability to assign different
>board packages already in schematics. Currently, you worry about components
>when using them in the schematic, and _another_time_ when starting the
>board layout (for example replace through-hole by SMT footprints).
>
>Yet another bad thing is the missing back-annotation. It's difficult to
>keep track of layout changes in the schematic and vice-versa. Everything
>has to be done manually.

First of all, I'm not in any way related to Cadsoft, except tham I'm
their customer. Quite satisfied customer.

When commenting about the missing features of the software, it would be
logical to at least tell everyone what version you are talking about.
Better yet, you could check the web site to see if the current version
is
better than yours.

Version 3.55 of Eagle _does_ have back-annotation. You cannot make all
changes in PCB layout (like creating new connections between
components), but it does track schematics changes in PCB (rips up
deleted
nets etc.)

1999\03\03@091005 by Harrison Cooper

flavicon
face
I wasn't really following this one, but read a few of the posts.  Is there a
website for this product, or a demo version around?  I've been using a very
old version (about 8 yrs old) of OrCad.  Although its a great and easy
product, I have been thinking of upgrading to something....

1999\03\03@102511 by Bob Drzyzgula

flavicon
face
(Odd return address (spampic@spam@spamdrzyzgula.org) is where I was
sending my subscription to make it easier to separate
out; Guess I'll have to change that now...)

On Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 12:28:00PM +0000, Madis Kaal wrote:
> > Marc <marcTakeThisOuTspamAARGH.FRANKEN.DE> wrote:
>
> First of all, I'm not in any way related to Cadsoft, except tham I'm
> their customer. Quite satisfied customer.

Same here.

> Version 3.55 of Eagle _does_ have back-annotation. You cannot make all
> changes in PCB layout (like creating new connections between
> components), but it does track schematics changes in PCB (rips up
> deleted
> nets etc.)

Before saying more, I'll concur with previous statements
that a great deal of the selection process for this kind
of software (and by "this kind", I include all sorts of
productivity tools, including word processors, spreadsheets,
programming languages, etc.) just comes down to personal
preferance and organizational temperment. We could debate
Protel vs Eagle, Word Perfect vs Word, Visual Basic vs
Delphi, vi vs Emacs, etc. for weeks and months, without
reaching any conclusion. That being said,

My experience with Eagle is similar; I use 3.55 for
Windows.  I'd say that the biggest problems with Eagle
are the brief and somewhat cryptic documentation, and
the difficulty in identifying which parts are available
and in which library.  The library and part nomenclature
is inconsistant and incomplete, the US & European parts
are kind of jumbled, and you can't really get the sense
of a part without plopping one down in a circuit and
then viewing it both in the schematic *and* the board.
You might get the idea from the library names that if
you want a resistor, you'd go to "R.LIB", but if you're
in the US you probably want to go to "DISCRETE.LIB"
instead.

As others have said, improvements on this are on their
way, although that doesn't necessarily help if you need
it today.  One thing they did recently do that is a big
help is to create a set of board and schematic designs,
each one of which contains all the parts from a single
library. This is a remarkably big help with this
problem. You can download these files from their website.

Things I like about Eagle include having both a scripting
and a programming language, the forward/back annotation,
the straightforwardness with which you can create and/or
modify parts libraries, and the helpfulness of their
staff. I've also not yet encountered any bugs, which
isn't to say that there aren't any, but I do appreciate
not having to constantly wonder if my problems stem from a
bug or from my own lack of understanding; in all cases so
far it has been the latter. This one fact makes me more
interested in learning Eagle better rather than looking
for a new solution. In addition, they have promised to
release the next version of Eagle for Linux, which I'm
pretty excited about; they claim to actually have an early
build of this version running within Cadsoft.

I'm quite sure that there are several other products that
work as well or better, but this one works for me.

--Bob

--
============================================================
Bob Drzyzgula                             It's not a problem
.....bobspamTakeThisOuTdrzyzgula.org                until something bad happens
============================================================

From: Bob Drzyzgula <EraseMEbobspamKILLspamdrzyzgula.org>
To: "L-Soft list server at MITVMA (1.8c)" <LISTSERVEraseMEspammitvma.mit.edu>
Cc:
Bcc: Bob Drzyzgula <EraseMEbobspamspamBeGonedrzyzgula.org>
Subject: Re: Rejected posting to TakeThisOuTPICLISTspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Reply-To: Bob Drzyzgula <bobspamspam_OUTdrzyzgula.org>
In-Reply-To: <spam199903031455.GAA26856@spam@spammx2.eskimo.com>; from L-Soft list server at
MITVMA (1.8c) on Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 09:33:21AM -0500
X-Editor: vim
X-Operating-System: Redhat Linux 5.2

On Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 09:33:21AM -0500, L-Soft list server at MITVMA (1.8c) wr
ote:
{Quote hidden}

1.
> 8b) with BSMTP id 7148; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:31:23 -0500
> Received: from 02-104.007.popsite.net [209.100.18.104] by mitvma.mit.edu (IBM
VM
{Quote hidden}

--
============================================================
Bob Drzyzgula                             It's not a problem
bob@spam@spamdrzyzgula.org                until something bad happens
============================================================

1999\03\03@131718 by David W. Duley

picon face
In a message dated 3/3/99 1:09:07 AM Pacific Standard Time, spam_OUTerikspamspamNETWURX.NET
writes:

<< Hi,
I'm the someone who originally mentioned Circuit Maker.
I'm just a hobbyist and chose it over Electronics Workbench due to the
number of components included in the included library.
I'm glad to see that so many others are also using it. (insecurity
issues?)

If you received any personal replies on more component libraries please
forward them to me.
If not, I'll ask the same again.

Erik
 >>
Hi Erik,
No takers so far.  Only questions as to why I chose Microcode.
I'll Keep you posted.  If my usual luck hold true, I will get a response from
someone that spent the last year inputting every CPU known to man into these
pakages with mind numbing precision just as I have hacked my way through
building my own library.

Regards
Dave Duley

'DOWNLOAD a Circuit/Trax maker 6 pro and PROTEL 98 '
1999\03\09@004510 by Amr Ahmed A.

picon face
Hi,

I found another site here is
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4522/download.html

Can any tell me if i can use pic16f84 4 mhz for a project require
10 mhz version ?


Thanks
amr77spam_OUTspamRemoveMEhotmail.com
EGYPT

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

1999\03\09@005720 by Tjaart van der Walt

flavicon
face
"Amr Ahmed A." wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I found another site here is
> www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4522/download.html
>
> Can any tell me if i can use pic16f84 4 mhz for a project require
> 10 mhz version ?
>
> Thanks
> spamamr77spamBeGonespamhotmail.com
> EGYPT

Amr Ahmed A, are you a pirate? With your obvious disregard for
copyright laws, you shouldn't hold your breath for help from
the PIClist. Copyright laws are there to protect *us* from
pirates that STEAL our software. It is not funny, endearing,
or even cute to STEAL software - it is criminal. Just because
it is on a floppy doesn't mean it isn't real.

You are taking food from someone's mouth somewhere.
Think about it.

I wish someone would invent a virus that gets propagated
with these 'cracks'.


--
                         /"\
                         \ /
Tjaart van der Walt        X  ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN
spamtjaartRemoveMEspamwasp.co.za  / \ AGAINST HTML MAIL
|--------------------------------------------------|
|                WASP International                |
|R&D Engineer : GSM peripheral services development|
|--------------------------------------------------|
| Mobile : KILLspamtjaartspam_OUTspamspam_OUTsms.wasp.co.za  (160 text chars) |
|     http://www.wasp.co.za/~tjaart/index.html     |
|Voice: +27-(0)11-622-8686  Fax: +27-(0)11-622-8973|
|          WGS-84 : 26¡10.52'S 28¡06.19'E          |
|--------------------------------------------------|

1999\03\09@010538 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face
>I wish someone would invent a virus that gets propagated
>with these 'cracks'.

I think that does happen. The same people who make cracks also make
viruses. They give them to "lamers"(people lamer than themselves?).

-Bob
http://www.bobblick.com  <-- no cracks here! Not even photos of them :-)

1999\03\09@011436 by Tony Nixon

flavicon
picon face
It looks like the PicList is getting a few cracks.

Sorry :-)

--
Best regards

Tony

PicNPoke - Multimedia 16F84 Beginners PIC Tools.

http://www.picnpoke.com
Email picnpokespam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTcdi.com.au

1999\03\09@070238 by Caisson

flavicon
face
> Van: Bob Blick <spamBeGonebblickspamspamspamBeGoneSABER.NET>
> Aan: @spam@PICLISTspamspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Onderwerp: Re: DOWNLOAD a Circuit/Trax maker 6 pro and PROTEL 98 cracks
andmoreNOW !
> Datum: dinsdag 9 maart 1999 7:00

Hello Bob,

> I think that does happen. The same people who make cracks also make
> viruses. They give them to "lamers"(people lamer than themselves?).

Have you ever "re-invented the wheel" ?  Why did you ?  Just because you
wanted to see if you _could_ perhaps ?

Don't throw all people into one "box".  I did create a virus myself, just
to see if I could.  Did I understand the computer that well ?  How do I
protect my code from prying eyes ?  And so on ....

I've even cracked some programs.  You (the company who sold the product)
are making something that can't be copied ?  That's a challenge !  And I'll
take it ....  I had much fun doing some of those Crack's.  The only thing
that I did not was to spread the cracked product around ....

Greetz,
 Rudy Wieser

P.s.  Be carefull with putting people into boxes.  One time or the other
_you_ will be the one in that box !

P.p.s.  How do you call someone who opens locks without a key.  A Thief or
a Locksmith ?... I think it depends on your intentions.

1999\03\09@083220 by Myke Predko

flavicon
face
Amr,

You might want to take a look at my page on Listservers:

http://www.myke.com/piclist

Especially point 15.

If you aren't happy with the price of a piece of software, why don't you
send a note to the company rather than steal from them?

myke

'[OT] ?? DOWNLOAD a Circuit/Trax maker 6 pro and P'
1999\03\09@095319 by Andy

flavicon
picon face
>>I wish someone would invent a virus that gets propagated
>>with these 'cracks'.
>
>I think that does happen. The same people who make cracks also make
>viruses. They give them to "lamers"(people lamer than themselves?).
>
>-Bob
>http://www.bobblick.com  <-- no cracks here! Not even photos of them :-)
>
Most are just serial numbers so not much chance of a virus!, there are
loads of sites out there with list upon list of serial numbers, go for it!!
most of the software they apply to is out of date so what the heck! its ok
for big companies that can afford it, most students cant and as (most)
students are young and impresionable its better of to let them 'get at it'
as this will effect there future buying patterns through habbit ect which is
why micro soft give big discounts for software for students and for that
matter why chocolate companys give free munchies with the college rag!
Andy.

'DOWNLOAD a Circuit/Trax maker 6 pro and PROTEL 98 '
1999\03\09@125801 by WF AUTOMACAO

flavicon
face
Amr Ahmed A. wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I found another site here is
> http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/4522/download.html
>

I don't believe that this WEB Page is of a Brazilian! The same, that i did adver
t 4 months ago
about piracy!

Miguel

1999\03\10@094217 by Marc

flavicon
face
> Can any tell me if i can use pic16f84 4 mhz for a project require
> 10 mhz version ?

They come from the same wafer as the 10MHz parts, but either have not
been tested at 10MHz or failed the 10MHz test. Most of the times it
works just right, but you can't rely on it in products that you ship
to paying customers.

1999\03\10@094404 by Marc

flavicon
face
> Don't throw all people into one "box".  I did create a virus myself, just
> to see if I could.

Hey, I did that too - on the good old C64.  It was attaching itself to files,
and the replication part worked fine. Never got to create a "destruction"
or "surprise" function, and of course it never left my own machine. It added
9 blocks to a file, and at that time other people said, viruses were impossible
on the C64 :-)

1999\03\12@191620 by Paul

flavicon
face
Right on Rudy !!! Been there ,done that, can't agree with you more!
-----Original Message-----
From: Caisson <KILLspamcaissonspamKILLspamTELEBYTE.NL>
To: KILLspamPICLISTspamspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU <PICLISTKILLspamspam.....MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Monday, March 08, 1999 6:03 PM
Subject: Re: DOWNLOAD a Circuit/Trax maker 6 pro and PROTEL 98 cracks
andmoreNOW !


{Quote hidden}

'[OT] ?? DOWNLOAD a Circuit/Trax maker 6 pro and P'
1999\03\16@125550 by John Payson

flavicon
face
>>I wish someone would invent a virus that gets propagated
>>with these 'cracks'.

|Most are just serial numbers so not much chance of a virus!, there are
|loads of sites out there with list upon list of serial numbers, go for it!!

Of course, it would be possible for a mischevous software company to
design their software to "trap" certain serial numbers, and then let
some of those numbers "leak" to the pirate web sites.  One variation
which goes back awhile (before the days of the web) was a to make the
software fail on a certain date when used in a pirate installation.
It's amazing how many people called in for tech support who had not
registered "their" software...

1999\03\16@163007 by Marc

flavicon
face
> Of course, it would be possible for a mischevous software company to
> design their software to "trap" certain serial numbers, and then let
> some of those numbers "leak" to the pirate web sites.  One variation
> which goes back awhile (before the days of the web) was a to make the
> software fail on a certain date when used in a pirate installation.
> It's amazing how many people called in for tech support who had not
> registered "their" software...

There was a jump & run game a couple of years ago, that had several levels of
copy protection. The last one was hidden (better than the others), and did
replace the exit of level 4 with solid wall, just like the surroundings. A
lot of people sent letters to game magazines back then, and asked how to
finish level 4!? They've destroyed all the enemies, collected all the goods,
but could not find out :-)


'MPLAB and Make/Build'
1999\07\15@044228 by peterc
flavicon
face
As I understand it from the help files for MPLAB, using the "Make"
option should build only _changed_ files and the "Build" option builds
_all_ files.

On my setup (using multiple .ASM files and a .LKR file) _all_ files get
built regardless of which option I use.

I am using version 4.12 of MPLAB.

Is my expectation that only changed files should be built with the Make
option correct? If so it would drastically reduce the build time for the
complete project with just a small change.

If Make should only be building new files, can anyone suggest what may
be wrong with my system? How does the program know which files have
changed? Options could be Timestamps, Archive attribute on the file or
internal knowledge of which files have been edited (a bit dangerous as a
file could have been edited with a different program). The network may
be affecting one or other method, but at least if I knew how MPLAB
decides to build or not then I may be able to track down the cause.
Solving the cause may of course be more difficult.
--
Peter Crighton

1999\07\15@124158 by Barry Baldwin

flavicon
face
Hi Peter,

I'm having the same problem.

Another thing you may want to look out for is strange interrupt
behavior.  If my project was created with linked files and an interrupt
occurred the W register
would be decremented by 1 and the STATUS register would then change
before the ISR had a chance
to save these.  This was causing some very interesting results with my
project.  When I then put
all of my code into one big file the interrupt behavior went away.  If
you are using interrupts I
would be curious if you see the same type of behavior that I'm seeing.

Good luck,

Barry

{Original Message removed}

1999\07\15@134403 by James Grosbach

picon face
>As I understand it from the help files for MPLAB, using the "Make"
>option should build only _changed_ files and the "Build" option builds
>_all_ files.
>
>On my setup (using multiple .ASM files and a .LKR file) _all_ files get
>built regardless of which option I use.
>
>I am using version 4.12 of MPLAB.

This usually means that MPLAB can't locate the include files used by your
project. MPLAB then has no way of checking if those files have changed to
know what needs built and what doesn't, so it rebuilds everything, just to
be safe.

On the "Edit Project" dialog, there is an entry for include path and an
entry for linker script path. Make sure that both of these are populated
with the appropriate (';' delimited) path lists. Note that it's quite
possible that the build tools themselves will be able to find the include
files, but MPLAB will not, as the build tools often have additional innate
knowledge of how to find these files. E.g., MPLAB-C17/18 checks the
MCC_INCLUDE environment variable.

Jim

1999\07\15@214153 by Jim Ham

flavicon
face
James et all:

I just tried this and it works! What a great tip! Too bad MPLAB doesn't
issue a warning if it can't find the files - it would have saved HOURS of
me waiting for the compiler.

Just a minor note - if you have an include file commented out, MPLAB still
tries to find it and will compile the source file if it can't.

Regards, Jim Ham


At 01:44 PM 7/15/99 -0400, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Jim Ham, Porcine Associates
(650)326-2669 fax(650)326-1071
"http://www.porcine.com"

1999\07\20@093701 by peterc

flavicon
face
Barry Baldwin wrote:
>
> Hi Peter,
>
> I'm having the same problem.
>
> Another thing you may want to look out for is strange interrupt
> behavior.  If my project was created with linked files and an interrupt
> occurred the W register
> would be decremented by 1 and the STATUS register would then change
> before the ISR had a chance
> to save these.  This was causing some very interesting results with my
> project.  When I then put
> all of my code into one big file the interrupt behavior went away.  If
> you are using interrupts I
> would be curious if you see the same type of behavior that I'm seeing.
>

I've got the design linking and compiling

We don't appear to be having any problems with W and STATUS saving when
entering the ISR though. (It's no help to you but the linking does at
least seem to work).

--
Peter Crighton

1999\07\20@184936 by suzda

picon face
After building three separate modules and testing them, I decided that
instead of putting them together into one large program, I'd take a look at
the relocatable features of MPLAB. After a few glitches, everything works
fine and I'm using 2 interrupt routines. Took me about 2 hours to figure it
all out.

Tom


{Original Message removed}


'[ot] SOIC to DIP adapters - how to make'
1999\08\21@005904 by D. F. Welch
picon face
At 10:54 PM 8/20/99 -0400, you wrote:
>While what Scott suggests is a good idea, I think that
>this is the place where Wagner's suggestion comes in.
>As he points out, there are very many people on this list
>who are quite capable of designing SMT-to-DIP adapters of
>just about any sort. ...

FWIW, I threw together a SOIC to dip adapter out of the junk box today.

  I found a board mount 50 mil female header socket
and extracted the pins which were of a tuning fork design.

I cut about 1/2 of one side of each tuning fork and then
carefully cut away the material one side of the connector for a distance of
about .200 inches.

This left the pin retainer area intact and left
a "|_|_|_|_|" pattern along one edge.

I then re-inserted the connectors so the remaining part of
the tuning fork contacts rested at the bottom of the "U".

I made two of these modified connectors and super glued
them to a piece of perf board with the open side
of the "U" facing up.  The two connectors faced each other and the space
between accommodated the width of the
SOIC IC body.

>From the side the connectors
look something like this when mounted:

"-----__    __-----"
"-------    -------"

I then wired the pins to a DIP header which I super glued to the bottom of
the perf board.

This is as far as I went because I needed a SOIC socket
to program some PIC SOIC parts.  It would be a simple
matter to fashion a clip with a small piece of foam
rubber to keep pressure on the chip.  In my case I just used finger
pressure but the socket worked great.

I hope others can make sense out of this description,
if not I'll have to try posting a few real sketches.



73,
Dan Welch
.....w6dfwRemoveMEspamKILLspamqsl.net

1999\08\21@112254 by Bob Drzyzgula

flavicon
face
On Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 10:54:50PM -0400, Bob Drzyzgula wrote:
>
> I'd be happy to collect those
> into an anonymous ftp directory if more than one or two
> people say they'll contribute, and I might even write
> up an actual web page with http links to those files... ;-)

OK, so I've put together a lame little web page to collect
this stuff together. Surf to:

 http://www.drzyzgula.org/bob/electronics/adapters.html

I've just started to dig for additional stuff on the web
related to such adapters, and I've already found at least
two sources that I didn't know existed before this.
I also know that there's been a bunch of ideas tossed
out in PICLIST over the past couple of eons, and I'll
spend some time on the archive site trying to find some
of those; if anyone has saved some good ones, I'd
appreciate it if you could send me a copy.

I'll be happy to add in any information, designs, techniques,
links, files, offers, etc. within that topic area. If you
have a design that's not up on the web somewhere, I'll
be happy to host it on my site.

This isn't essential, but if you *do* send something in
for this, I'd appreciate it if you address it to
TakeThisOuTewebKILLspamspam.....drzyzgula.org; that way I can sort it out automagically;
I get *sooo* much email I could miss it otherwise. I've
set the Reply-to on this message to make it easier.

Thanks,
--Bob


--
============================================================
Bob Drzyzgula                             It's not a problem
bobspam_OUTspamspamBeGonedrzyzgula.org                until something bad happens
============================================================


'as I make to leave the list'
1999\09\07@090611 by Raul Sulla Torres
flavicon
face
part 0 702 bytes
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<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>friends&nbsp; <BR>as I make to leave the
list</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Raul</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><A
href="rsullato.....spam@spam@ucsm.edu.pe">@spam@rsullatospamspamucsm.edu.pe</A></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

</x-html>

'Will Make Front Panels for Food'
1999\09\16@213316 by Rock Thompson

picon face
I've seen discussions about panels, sheet metal, labels, etc., so I
thought I'd offer this:

Besides playing with PICs I have a CNC machine shop.  For a recent
project I made fixtures and wrote some macros to machine prototype
quantities of various front panels. We'll have this setup on our
machine for a while, so if anyone is interested in having front panels
made, let me know and we can slip them in.  I would guess that we could
do it cheaper and faster than the local sheet metal shop.  (Maybe even
for free if you help me finish my project obsession: "Replacing an
entire CNC control with PICs" - guaranteed to make you a fixture in a
nice asylum somewhere.)

BTW, for labeling, we've done both screen printing or laser marking,
but my favorite method personally is something anyone with an inkjet
can do themselves, an "emulsion side down" print on transparent film.
I use Epson film, although I'm sure there are cheaper sources.  I first
tried this for some prototypes in an attempt to simulate expensive
production Lexan labels.  The inkjet looked fully professional, better,
in fact, than the production label.

I also once made a panel that had a colored inkjet print, with text,
and used LEDs behind the colored portion as various indicators.  This
looked fantastic.  You can also put a tactile switch behind the inkjet
film to make your own prototype membrane switches.  My next experiment
involves vacuum forming to see if I can put in a "bubble" for the
switch button.

Anyway, if anyone is interested in having panels made, please e-mail me
directly and I'll send you more info.

Thanks, Rock



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

'Will Make Front Panels for Food---- How To Reply??'
1999\09\17@134132 by adastra

flavicon
face
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pic microcontroller discussion list
> [spam_OUTPICLISTspamBeGonespamspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Rock Thompson
> Sent: Thursday, September 16, 1999 7:12 PM
> To: PICLISTRemoveMEspamTakeThisOuTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Will Make Front Panels for Food
>

I often see posts such as this one where we are invited to reply do the
poster directly, by email.
I use MS Outlook, and the only return address I ever see is the piclist
itself.
Is this a case of the original poster forgetting to include his/her email
address, or is
there some other way for me to get it?

BTW, Rock, I would like to have the information.
My email address is:  TakeThisOuTfosterKILLspamspamadastran.com

Thanks!

       Foster Brashear


{Quote hidden}

1999\09\17@160129 by Bob Drzyzgula

flavicon
face
On Fri, Sep 17, 1999 at 11:34:09AM -0600, adastra wrote:
>
> I often see posts such as this one where we are invited to reply do the
> poster directly, by email.
> I use MS Outlook, and the only return address I ever see is the piclist
> itself.
> Is this a case of the original poster forgetting to include his/her email
> address, or is
> there some other way for me to get it?

The PICLIST L-Soft mail processor inserts a Reply-To:
which overrides the From: address when your mailer
replies. In Outlook, the only way I know to "easily"
do this is to

  (a) open the message you want to reply to (it isn't
      enough to "preview" in the main Outlook window)
  (b) Select the text in the From field (even though
      it doesn't appear to be selectable text, it is,
      and it will select the address you want, not
      the text name as shown)
  (c) Right-click copy, Cntl-C or Edit... Copy to get
      the address into the clipboard,
  (d) Click the Reply button
  (e) select the piclist address in the To: field --
      the whole thing should select on a single click,
  (f) Right-click paste, Cntl-V or Edit... Paste.

At that point, you should have a reply to the original
poster, not the PICLIST.

This is why I always set my Reply-To: to myself; I
occasionally get messages intended for the list,
but I think it's better than having private replies
go to the list. One can always reply to the list
from my messages by doing a reply-to-all or group
reply.

--Bob

--
============================================================
Bob Drzyzgula                             It's not a problem
RemoveMEbobTakeThisOuTspamspamdrzyzgula.org                until something bad happens
============================================================
       http://www.drzyzgula.org/bob/electronics/
============================================================

1999\09\17@161419 by Brian Aase

flavicon
face
Can you (or anyone) be a little more specific about this "Epson film"
stuff?  Sounds like it may be really useful.  Exactly what is it
called, and where can it be bought?
Brian Aase

> {Original Message removed}

1999\09\17@163322 by eplus1

flavicon
face
Double click to open the message in its own window, right click on the email
address after "on behalf of" in the from field, and select "copy" then hit
reply and right click in the to field and hit paste.

People will tell you to use "Reply to all" rather than "Reply" but that
don't work for me with piclist messages.

James Newton, webmaster http://get.to/techref
(hint: you can add your own private info to the techref)
.....jamesnewton@spam@spamspamBeGonegeocities.com
1-619-652-0593 phone



{Original Message removed}

1999\09\17@211145 by Jeff Barlow

flavicon
face
1. Open the message
2. Click View then Options
3. Look in the text box at the bottom of the dialog box, the last "from:"
field should be the one you want.

{Original Message removed}

1999\09\18@182442 by paulb

flavicon
face
adastra wrote:

> and the only return address I ever see is the piclist itself.

 which was *preceded* by ...

> I use MS Outlook,

 Says it all!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> Is this a case of the original poster forgetting to include his/her
> email address,

 No, as that's virtually impossible.

> or is there some other way for me to get it?

 There probably is.  Play with some settings, if you can find any.  If
not, you just have to decide - do you want everything to look pretty, or
do you want to get some work done?

 I know this "M$ software" theme is getting pretty well-worn, but when
you really get down to the nitty-gritty, that's just how it is!
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

1999\09\19@031332 by Mark Willis

flavicon
face
adastra wrote:
> Is this a case of the original poster forgetting to include his/her
> email address,

... In which case the PICList would discard the post as not coming from
a SUBSCRIBER to the PICList (A prerequisite for posting to the list!)

It's a MS Exchange software problem, Netscape doesn't have this problem
(for example).

 Mark

1999\09\19@070043 by Peter van Hoof

flavicon
face
There is a way, double click message to open it.
click view,options. this shows you the full header. (this is in outlook
2000)

Peter van Hoof
-------------
STOPspampvhTakeThisOuTspamvertonet.com
http://go.to/pvh

> {Original Message removed}

1999\09\20@154938 by Rock Thompson

picon face
You can order it directly from Epson's web site.  Look under supplies
for inkjets.  It's expensive but works well.  When you print on it, try
different settings.  For example, on my printer, the "glossy photo
paper" setting gives more resolution and is more opaque than the
"inkjet transparentcy" setting.

Rock

--- Brian Aase <TakeThisOuTulcsa@spam@spamESKIMO.COM> wrote:
> Can you (or anyone) be a little more specific about
> this "Epson film"
> stuff?  Sounds like it may be really useful.
> Exactly what is it
> called, and where can it be bought?
> Brian Aase
>
> > {Original Message removed}


'Make in MPLAB with HiTech'
1999\11\07@220513 by Chris Eddy
flavicon
face
Commrades;

I had to break up a C program into multiple files for logistics
reasons.  (I would be hanging myself from a rafter if I had to write it
in assy).  When I press CTRL-F10 in MPLAB, I make all.  When I press
F10, I expect to make only the files that changed.  I found that both
perform the same.  I change one file, they all compile.  Of course, I
want to compile only the changed file and link.

Does anyone have insight into this make issue?

Thanks
Chris Eddy
Pioneer Microsystems, Inc.

1999\11\08@104538 by Jim Ham

flavicon
face
Make sure that you have the path to your include files set correctly in the
project definition. If MPLAB can't find the include files, it makes
everything. I had the same trouble.

This tip originally came from someone from Microchip who only occassionally
pipes up. It has literally saved me hours watching the monitor...

Regards, Jim Ham



At 10:05 PM 11/7/1999 -0500, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Jim Ham, Porcine Associates
(650)326-2669 fax(650)326-1071
"http://www.porcine.com"

'DTMF Tones? Can somebody explain how I make sound'
1999\11\10@194556 by Darren King

flavicon
face
I would like to write some code to make DTMF tones.  However I can't figure
out even how to produce noise.  I have to hook up a capaciter or
something...  I can't find any sample circuits and then even if I did.  What
do I send?  A pulse of some sort?

Darren King

1999\11\10@202751 by Keith Causey

picon face
There is an application note from Microchip that is on their webpage and in
their applications manual. It explains the theory and describes the hardware
in detail.

> I would like to write some code to make DTMF tones.  However I can't
figure
> out even how to produce noise.  I have to hook up a capaciter or
> something...  I can't find any sample circuits and then even if I did.
What
> do I send?  A pulse of some sort?
>
> Darren King

1999\11\10@203002 by Dave VanHorn

flavicon
face
> I would like to write some code to make DTMF tones.  However I can't
figure
> out even how to produce noise.  I have to hook up a capaciter or
> something...  I can't find any sample circuits and then even if I did.
What
> do I send?  A pulse of some sort?


This is one that might be better done in an external chip.

You need to produce two tones, that have no harmonic relationship, with
fairly low harmonic content or distortion.   If all you want is simething
that works  most of the time, then you can get there with a resistive ladder
D/A and following lowpass filter. If you want to get part 68 (or foreign
telco) approval, then the external chip, or micro with onboard dedicated
hardware is the easy way to go. Cost, about $1.  My favorite is the
EFG71891, an 8 pin DIP that needs power, three proc pins (can share one) and
a crystal and resistor.

Doing it externally also means more CPU left for doing other things.

The specs for the tones are widely available, and are in the EFG datasheet.
Email me if you want it, and I'll send it off the list.

1999\11\10@225323 by Tracy Smith

picon face
--- Dave VanHorn <EraseMEdvanhornEraseMEspamCEDAR.NET> wrote:
> > I would like to write some code to make DTMF
> tones.  However I can't
> figure
> > out even how to produce noise.  I have to hook up
> a capaciter or
> > something...  I can't find any sample circuits and
> then even if I did.
> What
> > do I send?  A pulse of some sort?
>
>
> This is one that might be better done in an external
> chip.

I disagree. It might be easier if you have no idea how
to do it, but that's why people ask questions...

I can think of several ways. Probably the easiest
would be to generate two sinusoidally modulated PWM
wave forms on two I/O pins, add them together through
a resistor network and low-pass filter them. Eric
Smith has a fast algorithm for generating sine waves,
while Scott Dattalo has one that based on phase
accumulators (and consequently easier to control the
frequency). Either of these may be used to generate
the two sine waves corresponding to the two tones.
Generating two pwm wave forms in software is more
challenging, but it CAN be done. I believe Lawrence
and again Scott have posted software pwm algorithms.

I suspect (but don't have the time to show) that one
could combine the sinusoids digitally (as opposed to
an analog based summer). For example, the pwm duty
cycle could be formed by adding the sine waves
together. In other words, for every PWM cycle the duty
cycle is the proportional to the sum of the amplitudes
of the two sinusoids comprising the DTMF tone.

You'll want to use phase accumulators to minimize
frequency errors and you'll need low-pass filters to
filter the PWM signal to remove the carrier. IIRC, a
single cycle resolution, 256 level PWM waveform on a
20MHZ pic has a carrier frequeny just under 20khz.
This would give you about 12 samples for the highest
DTMF frequency.

.lo

=====

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

1999\11\11@002847 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
Tracy Smith wrote:
>
> --- Dave VanHorn <dvanhornTakeThisOuTspamKILLspamCEDAR.NET> wrote:
> > > I would like to write some code to make DTMF
> > tones.  However I can't
> > figure
> > > out even how to produce noise.  I have to hook up
> > a capaciter or
> > > something...  I can't find any sample circuits and
> > then even if I did.
> > What
> > > do I send?  A pulse of some sort?
> >
> >
> > This is one that might be better done in an external
> > chip.
>
> I disagree. It might be easier if you have no idea how
> to do it, but that's why people ask questions...

Yes and No. Perhaps "May be".

I used both versions in different situations. The external chip should
be used when the µC is not able to dedicate processing cycles to
generate it.  The software solution was using a sine wave table 128
entries per 180 senoidal degrees (PI), yes, ok, I could use only 64 for
90 degrees and reverse the scan for the even quadrants, but it had lots
of code memory available, so it was easy... then it needs to be reversed
signal polarity for quadrants 3 and 4.  The table had values between 0
and 7Fh, value added to 80h for quadrants 1 and 2, and subtracted from
80h for quadrants 3 and 4.

Then it was the tricky and laborious part; find the "skipping" sequence
and pseudo-delays for each one of the DTMF frequencies.  It means, for a
lower frequency, the scanning routine skip less bytes at the table, for
faster frequencies, the scanning was doing large skips.

The DTMF routine has only two counters to point different table
positions, and the increment of this counters are based on the skip
factor.  It read both table values, invert it for quadrants 3 and 4,
shift each one right (divide by 2) and add both. The composite wave form
was done.  A PWM or a direct DAC (resistor ladder) was to be used, used
the ladder for efficiency and speed. This routine got very small.

The sine table was used to generate lots of other signals at the device
operation through the telephone, and play with decreasing and increasing
senoidal level was piece of cake.    

Then I tested it using only 16 analog levels (4 bits), worked the same
way of 128 levels (7 bits), but then, why force nature? someday,
somewhere, it could fail, so left it with 7 bits...

The R-2R resistor ladder solution is simple because you only need to
purchase 24 equal resistors, precision to the value is not important,
they need to have *some* precision between them, what is normally easy
to happens when they are from the same production lot.

Several other solutions using 8 bits DAC is also possible, but them...
another chip?  why then not use the DTMF generator chip? :)

Wagner.

1999\11\11@005627 by Dave VanHorn

flavicon
face
> > This is one that might be better done in an external
> > chip.
>
> I disagree. It might be easier if you have no idea how
> to do it, but that's why people ask questions...

Been there, done that, both ways. The software approach is more difficult,
and takes more attention to the output to achieve "in-spec" spectral purity
and twist. The hardware approach costs more, and leaves more processor
cycles free for other things.

> Generating two pwm wave forms in software is more
> challenging, but it CAN be done. I believe Lawrence
> and again Scott have posted software pwm algorithms.

I didn't say it couldn't be, that would be silly.

> I suspect (but don't have the time to show) that one
> could combine the sinusoids digitally (as opposed to
> an analog based summer).

Yes, did it some years ago on a Z8, with 12 MHz clock (1 mips) while reading
barcodes from a "light pen" wand at the same time. It took some work in
mathcad to get the right resistor values, due to also factoring in the twist
requirement, and the analog filter was a little interesting.

> You'll want to use phase accumulators to minimize
> frequency errors and you'll need low-pass filters to
> filter the PWM signal to remove the carrier.

And you have to set the "twist" properly, which is the relative level
between the two tones. Otherwise, it won't be detected at the CO under all
circumstances.  High tones get attenuated more than low tones over distance,
so you start out with the highs a couple dB hotter than the lows, and the
line "untwists" it.  You can't twist too much, or a close CO can't hear you
properly, too little, and a far CO can't hear you.  Get it right, and it
works all the time, even on crappy lines, like phone equipment should.

1999\11\11@105957 by Tracy Smith

picon face
Wagner,

Phase accumulators in conjunction with look up tables
solve all of the digital synthesis problems you
mention (namely: using 16 or 32 etc sized table to
obtain 128 or 256 or whatever number of samples; phase
accumulators solve [or at least minimize] the jitter
frequency you allude to).

In fact, Eric Smith has already written it:

http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/pic/dtmf.html

David Thomas has the 2-pin version I alluded to in an
earlier post.

http://www.rt66.com/dthomas/pic/dtmf.txt

Scott Dattalo has the sine generation and phase
accumulators integrated into one program:

http://www.interstice.com/~sdattalo/technical/software/pic/picsine.html

and a software-only pwm routine as well:

http://www.interstice.com/~sdattalo/technical/software/pic/pwm256.txt

And not to be left out, Scenix has some code as well:

http://www.scenix.com/virtual/vp/vplibrary.html#library

A quick search on alta-vista for all documents
containing PIC and DTMF yielded over 1300 URLs.

You really ought to check these out. These people have
solved the problem.

.lo

--- Wagner Lipnharski <wagnerlspamBeGonespamspamEARTHLINK.NET> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

=====

__________________________________________________
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Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

1999\11\11@135834 by Lea

picon face
At 07:55 PM 11/10/99 -0800, you wrote:
>I would like to write some code to make DTMF tones.  However I can't figure

Hi Darren, I was on this subject for a while and I think that do it by
software is complicated, specially because you need to make 2 diferent tones
at the time with the lowest harmonic component possible, may be you
should consider to use an external IC, I was using UM91531 , parallel,
works fine with pic but uses 6 pin (4 data, 2 control), may be too much and
also the tone length is fixed, a better one is HT9200A (holtek) serial, only
3 pin (CE/SDA/SCK) tone length is determined by the stop command send serially
so it's very flexible, the only problem is this one makes a very ugly noise
when you start or stop the oscillator (Some kind of TAC (DC peak)), so the
only way that I find is to do the spaces with a 4066 switching the audio
and generating tone continuously, this results in a very clean DTMF output.
there are others DTMF Ics in the market but I just told you my experience
on this 2 IC's...
if you whant more about those 2 chips let me know.
hope it helps, see you.
  Leandro J. Laporta (LU2AOQ)
  mail: lu2aoq.....spam.....yahoo.com
  wrk: Arg. Assoc. for Space Technology.
  ham: TCP/IP high speed group HSG


__________________________________________________
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Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

'How to make high side switch'
1999\11\12@010502 by Jon Petty

picon face
Hi

I am trying to find the best way to make a high side switch to control an
auxillary power source for my pic in an automotive application. When ignition
switch voltage is present (13.8V or so) I want the pic to control a switch
that will direct 12V battery power to the  5V regulator for perifferals. When
ignition switch is off,  high side switch will cutoff bat supply to 5V
regulator for perifferals.

I would like a logic level signal from pic to control 12V source to regulator.

My plan was to use a pnp mosfet. It said it was a logic level hexfet, but it
did not work. I tried an npn logic level mosfet and it didn't work either. It
appeared the gate logic was dependent on the batter voltage. I got a  pnp
transistor to work when gate voltage was above or below the batt voltage, but
it was the inverse of what I was looking for. I know I am missing something
simple.

It seems so simple I have done it in the past using 5v relays, but I thought
there must be a simplier SS solution .

Could you provide some suggestions on how I can make a logic level high side
switch cheap?

Thanks

Jon

1999\11\12@040900 by Jinx

face picon face
There are any number of ways to control 12V by 5V.

For example use the PIC to drive an npn TR to ground the base of a
pnp power TR whose base is normally held high by a  resistor (the
pnp's emitter is also connected directly to 12V), the 12V coming out
of the pnp collector into the reg.

Or an optocoupler, driving the LED side with the PIC, the TR side
driving either a power TR, FET or reg directly

Or a 5V-12V level shifter, eg ICL7667 to drive a power FET

Or even an RS232-type or bus level shifter (you may have one lying
around)

etc etc etc

A lot depends on what current you'll be expecting to put through the reg

Jinx

1999\11\12@045127 by McMeikan, Andrew

flavicon
face
Don't forget you can get 5 volt regs with logic shutdown control such as
LM2925

       cya,    Andrew...

> {Original Message removed}

1999\11\12@045539 by Thomas C. Sefranek

face picon face
Jon Petty wrote:

> Hi
>
> I am trying to find the best way to make a high side switch to control an
> auxillary power source for my pic in an automotive application. When ignition
> switch voltage is present (13.8V or so) I want the pic to control a switch
> that will direct 12V battery power to the  5V regulator for perifferals. When
> ignition switch is off,  high side switch will cutoff bat supply to 5V
> regulator for perifferals.
>
> I would like a logic level signal from pic to control 12V source to regulator.
>
> My plan was to use a pnp mosfet.

You mean a P-channel?

> It said it was a logic level hexfet, but it did not work.

They work for me!  I'll bet you didn't use correct gate drive.
Source to battery, gate must go from battery level (Off) to a TTL level or great
er
less than battery. (On)
The PIC can't source battery level voltage without a buffer. (FET)  Or open drai
n
high voltage output.

{Quote hidden}

--
Thomas C. Sefranek  WA1RHP
ARRL Instructor, Technical Specialist, VE Contact.
http://www.harvardrepeater.org
http://hamradio.cmcorp.com/inventory/Inventory.html

1999\11\12@062624 by Michael Rigby-Jones

flavicon
face
part 0 6569 bytes
<P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">I am trying to find the best way to make a high side switch to control an</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">auxillary power source for my pic in an automotive application. When ignition</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">switch voltage is present (13.8V or so) I want the pic to control a switch</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">that will direct 12V battery power to the&nbsp; 5V regulator for perifferals. When</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">ignition switch is off,&nbsp; high side switch will cutoff bat supply to 5V</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">regulator for perifferals.</FONT>
</P>
</UL>
<P><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Umm, can't you just connect your 5v reg to the 12v ignition supply?</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<UL>
<P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">I would like a logic level signal from pic to control 12V source to regulator.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">My plan was to use a pnp mosfet. It said it was a logic level hexfet, but it</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">did not work. I tried an npn logic level mosfet and it didn't work either. It</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">appeared the gate logic was dependent on the batter voltage. I got a&nbsp; pnp</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">transistor to work when gate voltage was above or below the batt voltage, but</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">it was the inverse of what I was looking for. I know I am missing something</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">simple.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">It seems so simple I have done it in the past using 5v relays, but I thought</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">there must be a simplier SS solution .</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Could you provide some suggestions on how I can make a logic level high side</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">switch cheap?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Thanks</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2 FACE="Arial">Jon</FONT>
</P>
</UL>
<P><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Courier">You could use a PNP bipolar transistor.&nbsp; You will need a resistor from base to emitter to keep it switched off, and then pull the base to ground (through a current limiting resistor) to switch it on.&nbsp; You will probably need to do this with an NPN transistor rather than using the PIC's ports directly.&nbsp; This gives the general idea.&nbsp; The resistor values are of the top of my head, the 2k will be the most important depending the the beta of the pnp transistor and the amount of current you want to draw, basically it needs to be driven into saturation.</FONT></P>
<BR>

<P><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Courier">12v</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Courier">____&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; _______ Switched 12v&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Courier">&nbsp;| e\&gt; /c</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Courier">+-+&nbsp; ---&nbsp; (pnp)</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Courier">| |&nbsp;&nbsp; |b</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Courier">| |10k|</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Courier">+-+&nbsp;&nbsp; |</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Courier">&nbsp;|____|</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Courier">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Courier">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; +-+</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Courier">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | |</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Courier">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | |2k</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Courier">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; +-+</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Courier">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; c|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 4k7</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Courier">(npn)&nbsp; \|_____+---+____From PIC pin</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Courier">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &lt;/|b |&nbsp; +---+</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Courier">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; e|&nbsp;&nbsp; +-+</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Courier">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp; | |</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Courier">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp; | |10k</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Courier">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp; +-+</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Courier">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |</FONT>
<BR><FONT COLOR="#0000FF" SIZE=2 FACE="Courier">--------------GND</FONT>
</P>

</BODY>
</HTML>
</x-html>

1999\11\12@181543 by Russell McMahon

picon face
>Don't forget you can get 5 volt regs with logic shutdown control such as
>LM2925


These are useful BUT note that they draw current in shutdown which may be
significant in battery powered applications (10's of uA AFAIR).

Also note the MINIMUM 10 microFarad output capacitor spec (see recent thread
on regulator output caps).

RM

1999\11\12@225651 by Jason Muhammad

picon face
Just connect the +5v regulator to the Ignition wire. That's what I did
to power my VFD in my car...

{Quote hidden}

--
Jason
========================================
Website: http://www.execpc.com/~milsumai
E-Mail:  spam_OUTmilsumaiEraseMEspam.....execpc.com
ICQ # :  12978762
========================================
         .:::.
          ,,,
        _(- -)_
       /  ( )  \
       \_/ : \_/
        |_/ \_|
         | | |
      -TRY PRAYER-

1999\11\14@144922 by l.allen

picon face
>
> My plan was to use a pnp mosfet. It said it was a logic level hexfet, but it
> did not work. I tried an npn logic level mosfet and it didn't work either.

Logic Level means that the switching (fully on channel) voltage on
the gate is around 5 volts... often 3 volts as well ( as opposed to
the 11 volts needed on a typical mosfet). This is easy to understand
with an N channel.... 0 volts =off, 5 volts =on  at any appropriate
voltage on the drain. BUT....... a P channel logic level mosfet is
off at VCC and on at VCC - 5volts.... e.g. at 12 volts vcc 12 volts
on the gate will turn it off, 7 volts or less will turn it on!!!!!
I usually use a low power logic level N channel mosfet from the pic,
the drain of the N channel has a resistor.. say 100K from 12 volts
(in this example) to the mosfet drain, this provides a 0 to 12 volts
swing at is drain that I can connect onto the gate of an ordinary P
channel power mosfet.
_____________________________

Lance Allen
Technical Officer
Uni of Auckland
Psych Dept
New Zealand

http://www.psych.auckland.ac.nz

_____________________________

'DTMF Tones? Can somebody explain how I make sound'
1999\11\17@081401 by Alan Aldaba

flavicon
face
Hi Everyone,

       Sorry, I'm rather late with my info..., Regulus Berdin have some dtmf
generation codes on his page. It uses 2 pins of the 16F84, you just have
to combine them then filter the output. Reggie even help me personally
with his code...Thanx, Reggie :)

http://www.skyinet.net/~ecb/

Darren King wrote:
>
> I would like to write some code to make DTMF tones.  However I can't figure
> out even how to produce noise.  I have to hook up a capaciter or
> something...  I can't find any sample circuits and then even if I did.  What
> do I send?  A pulse of some sort?
>
> Darren King


'BoardMaker PCB SW!!'
1999\12\20@090049 by egairy
picon face
<x-flowed>Hi everybody
I'm in a middle of project and I strongly in need of a file bm3.exe included
in board maker pcb software so please if you have or know where to get it,
please let me know. Most appreciated.
Thanks

Best regards

Mohamed El Egairy




Mail me at: EraseMEegairyKILLspamspamspaminame.com
ICQ       : 14668366


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

</x-flowed>

'[OT] US Feds raid hobbiest FM bug maker [OT]'
1999\12\30@063410 by Russell McMahon

picon face
The following link relates to a recent decision by the US authorities to
raid a maker of kitset electronics, confiscate $30,000 of equipment and
start a prosecution relating to the possibility of the equipment being used
for terrorist purposes.

There are several articles plus a discussion group of variable worth.

The maker has apparently been selling this and similar kits for 25 years
without problems.
While it's hard to be sure of the merits of this sort of case from this
distance (world gets in the way) it is probably worth all US based list
members who are interested in electronics, at least having a look and
deciding whether its worth "writing their congressman". Seems a bit like the
thin edge of the wedge, but maybe not?

RM

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

This is the on-line discussion group regarding the recent Federal Government
restriction on a number of Ramsey Electronics hobby kits and products.
Since this action, we have been swamped with inquiries regarding the
restriction.  This discussion group was created to keep you informed.

http://208.46.148.11/



1st article
http://208.46.148.11/cyberskip.htm



==========================================

A recent US Federal Government action has prohibited us from selling a
number of products to you because they feel you are using it for illegal
use.  For over 25 years, Ramsey Electronics, Inc. has been selling wireless
hobby and educational kits for your fun, pleasure, and education in kit
building.

Investigators believe world class "kidnappers and organized crime" are using
things like our $5.95 wireless microphone kits for their "surreptitious"
international espionage use!  When in reality, they've been used for years
and years as a valuable educational kit used in things like model trains,
amateur radio, school projects, Scout projects, baby monitoring and more.

Further, our FM-5 kit has become the most popular "starter" kit to learn all
about Surface Mount Technology.  Schools use them around the Country for
their students first hands-on project with SMT!

Yes, we've been advised that some of our award winning low cost hobby kits,
the same ones you see below, and that were FORMERLY ordered by thousands of
scouts, schools and hobbyists for all these years, might be in violation of
US Code Title 18, Section 2512 because they believe their "primary use" was
designed for such "surreptitious" use, and not for hobby, and educational
use.  Our catalogs have always had a very specific notice  regarding the
proper use of these products, and strongly warns against such improper use,
but apparently that wasn't good enough either....GO FIGURE!

=================================================












     Russell McMahon
_____________________________

>From other worlds - http://www.easttimor.com
                               http://www.sudan.com

What can one man* do?
Help the hungry at no cost to yourself!
at  http://www.thehungersite.com/

(* - or woman, child or internet enabled intelligent entity :-))

1999\12\30@110306 by andrew abken

picon face
  Thanks for the heads up Russell, I am embarrassed
to say I did not know this had happened.

--- Russell McMahon <RemoveMEapptechSTOPspamspamEraseMECLEAR.NET.NZ> wrote:
> The following link relates to a recent decision by
> the US authorities to
> raid a maker of kitset electronics, confiscate
> $30,000 of equipment and
> start a prosecution relating to the possibility of
> the equipment being used
> for terrorist purposes.
>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://messenger.yahoo.com

1999\12\30@153145 by quozl

flavicon
face
Thanks for that Russell.

Like you, I'm one of the aliens.  I thought this sort of thing was meant
to be fiction in American movies.  Seems not.

I was actually intending to get a Ramsey kit so that I could set up a
telemetry link from my weather station on my mountain to my home, which
is currently 15km near line of sight.

I've told Ramsey so, and suggested they repair their government.

--
James Cameron   spam_OUTquozlspamspamRemoveMEus.netrek.org   http://quozl.us.netrek.org/


'Circuitmaker & Traxmaker [OT]'
2000\01\29@154825 by Roland Andrag
flavicon
face
In a follow up to Randy's post on PCB Software I want to ask if anyone else
on the list has had good/bad experiences with Circuitmaker and Traxmaker
(regular or pro) from Microcode.

Thanks
Roland

2000\01\30@223106 by Antonio L Benci

flavicon
picon face
I have used Traxmaker (translating from Autotrax) and found it to be
quite good. I had no problems in translating files or completing the
design. For those that have used Autotrax in the past, Traxmaker is a
reasonable option for upgrading to a windows based PCB CAD system at low
cost.

Sorry, I have had no opportunity to try Circuitmaker.

Roland Andrag wrote:
>
> In a follow up to Randy's post on PCB Software I want to ask if anyone else
> on the list has had good/bad experiences with Circuitmaker and Traxmaker
> (regular or pro) from Microcode.
>
> Thanks
>  Roland

--
******************************************************
* Antonio (Nino) Benci                               *
* Professional Officer / Electronic Services Manager *
* Monash University - Dept of Physics                *
*        - spamBeGonefleatechEraseMEspamsmartchat.net.au (private)       *
* WWW    - http://www.physics.monash.edu.au/                *
******************************************************

2000\01\31@133404 by King, Jonathan

flavicon
face
I've used the Pro versions for about 2 years.  It has a few quirky
behaviorism's(not necessarily "bugs"), but overall I think it is a great
package for the price range.  I haven't used the SPICE simulation features
very much, but everything else seems fairly easy to use.

Good Luck,
Jonathan

{Quote hidden}


'Circuit and TraxMaker from MicroCode [OT]'
2000\02\18@045936 by Roland Andrag
flavicon
face
Hello everyone...

Has anyone on the list used CircuitMaker and Traxmaker by MicroCode? If you
have, I would like to hear some comments, since I may buy it.

I have spent a few hours on the demo versions, and I could not see any
obvious problems, and found it MUCH more intuitive than EAGLE. I was able to
define packages etc. quite easily, and the routing of traces etc worked
well.

Am I missing something, or is this actually a good program at a more or less
reasonable price?

Thanks
Roland

2000\02\18@063128 by Jeff Jolie

flavicon
face
I've used both.  They are a good value for the money. TraxMaker Pro is great
for doing relatively straight forward  PCB's.  If you are doing lots of PCB
design you really want a program with a better autorouter. I've been using
Protel 99SE (http://www.protel.com) recently due to the complexity of the designs,
but it's an expensive program ($5,000 I think).  I have circuit maker and
TraxMaker pro that I would consider selling for a very reasonable price.  If
interested please contact me directly.

Jeff Jolie
jeff@spam@spamneame.com
New England Automated
Machine Engineering, Inc.
http://www.neame.com


{Original Message removed}

2000\02\18@102834 by Matt Burch

flavicon
face
I use both in the course of my job and I like them okay.  They both have
their little quirks and bugs (including a maddening tendency to not refresh
the screen that has trained me to keep my finger on the force-refresh key
at all times) and the autorouter sucks; in an absolute sense they are not
the greatest examples of software, but compared to everything else in the
price range they are pretty good. I'm fond of describing Traxmaker as "the
worst PCB layout package you can buy, except for all the other ones."  :)

mcb



At 11:55 AM 02/18/2000 +0200, Roland Andrag wrote:
{Quote hidden}

-------------------------------------------------------------------
    Matt Burch      |  Pinnacle Technology   | tel: (785) 832-8866
 Project Engineer   | 619 E. 8th St. Suite D | fax: (785) 749-9214
spammburchSTOPspamspamRemoveMEpinnaclet.com |  Lawrence, KS  66044   |  http://www.pinnaclet.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------

2000\02\18@120159 by Randy A.

picon face
Roland:

   I have been using the CircuitMaker and TraxMaker Pro suite for several
months and HIGHLY recommend it.  It is the easiest and most powerful,
especially for the money, that I have used or sampled so far.  That is why I
purchased it.  Unlike even many of the more expensive packages, there are NO
pin limits in TraxMaker Pro and it comes with a CAM package for your CNC
drilling.

   The simulation and schematic drawing/capture is also simple, powerful and
it is easy to make new devices and packages in both CM and TM.

Regards,
Randy A.

2000\02\18@121414 by Randy A.

picon face
I will agree that there are a few quirks but the autorouter isn't all that
bad unless compared with Protel or other packages that cost 5 or  6 times the
price.  I have tried EdWin, Eagle, and quite a few others and NONE come even
close to the MicroCode Pro packages.  When you have more complex boards  you
will most likely end up manually placing many of the components in order to
get the routing to work.  However, for an old guy like me that cut his teeth
on a light table and Brady Tape on mylar medium, this is a Godsend. :-)

For the money I still think that it is the best package out there.

Randy A.

2000\02\18@155156 by Roland Andrag

flavicon
face
Randy, thanks for your reply. Sounding good. One more question - what
version are you using, and what has changed over the last few versions?

Thanks
Roland

{Original Message removed}

2000\02\18@161305 by Randy A.

picon face
Version 6.2c for CircuitMaker and 3.03 for TraxMaker.  I don't know what has
changed since I got these versions but I do know that for the money they are
probably the best value and quality you will find.

Randy A.

2000\02\19@200515 by engalt

picon face
I have been using Traxmaker for a few years.  It is a great program and is
reasonably priced.  It is actually an older version of Tango that used to sell
for a few thousand dollars about 7-8 years ago.  The Traxmaker people apparently
bought the rights to the old code.  The fact that it is a few year old
technology doesn't really matter much for most of us.  If you are designing a
700MHz Pentium board with 10 layers it makes a difference, but 99% of us don't
need a program that can do that.

I have a few very minor complaints.  I am currently doing my design directly
with Traxmaker without doing a schematic first and importing the netlist.  The
old Tango used to let you do a rats nest connection from pin to pin that would
just draw a straight line between the connected pins.  When you were done you
could make it route.

For some reason they took that away and now you have to do a semi-auto route.
You click on one pin, then click on the next pin and it routes each trace right
then.  The problem with that is that you don't wind up with an optimized route.
If you start with component placements and a netlist the program will do the
simple direct routes first, the single via routes next, and on down the line.
This gives you much better routing than the semi-auto mode.  To get around this
I usually place the components and save the board.  Save it again under a new
name, route the board in semi-auto mode, save the netlist than open the original
board import the netlist, and do an auto route.  All of this should be avoided
if you use a schematic editor and import that netlist.

Anyway, asid from this minor shortcoming I would highly recommend it.

For what it's worth, I would also highly not recommend Electronics Workbench.  I
made the mistake of buying it to do my schematics in.  They will import into
Traxmaker just fine, but it totally useless to me because they don't have any 18
pin dips or 28 pin skinny DIPs.  They also have no way to make a new component
so I can't use it for PIC projects.  It does seem to be a decent mixed signal
simulation software though.  Anyone want to by my licensed copy cheap?

Roland Andrag wrote:

{Quote hidden}

'CircuitMaker 6 vs. Pro...'
2000\02\20@122130 by Jeffrey Siegel

flavicon
face
I've really enjoyed the CircuitMaker/TraxMaker discussions recently.  I've
been evaluating the various schematic/simulation packages, ordered the
demos, etc.  Given the demos that I've played with and the feedback from the
PICLIST, I'm going to go with CircuitMaker.  My needs for the package are:

1.  Experimenting with some basic filter, amplifier, and other analog
circuits (I'm learning all of this right now too...going through "The Art of
Electronics" book and lab book - I want a way to explore the circuits before
wiring up the ones I want to try for real).

2.  Producing schematics for printout and archive to allow others to analyze
them.  (PIC based, by the way...)

3.  Giving a schematic file to a manufacturer to produce prototype PCB's and
eventually production PCB's.


I'm hoping that some of you that have this package can help with these three
questions:

1.  Why would I want the "Pro" version versus the "6" version?  I've read
the differences but I can't see where my needs justify the extra expense.
Am I missing something?

2.  Can you upgrade between the "6" version and the "Pro" version in case I
find that I really do need it.

3.  Where is the best place to purchase the software?

Thanks much!!

...Jeff

2000\02\20@154344 by John Scott

flavicon
face
I ordered mine directly from Protel.  You can also get it from
Jameco.  You can upgrade to the Pro version for the diffenence.

The pro version has more built in devices, however you can create
devices of your own with the standard version.  That is what I have
been doing.  The pro version also has some additional tests you can
perform on your circuit.



Jeffrey Siegel wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2000\02\20@175646 by Randy A.

picon face
Jeff:

For your use I don't think you will need the Pro versions of CircuitMaker or
TraxMaker.  And you can purchase the regular versions from Jameco for about
$280.00 or so each, much cheaper than the $1500.00 or so for the Pro versions.

The only real difference is that the Pro versions have a lot more devices and
a few more test simulations geared mostly for the more serious minded
professional.

I love my CircuitMaker and TraxMaker and have found very few bugs in the
software, however like all packages there are a few but nothing that really
causes me any serious problems or that I can't work around with pretty much
mimimal effort.

Randy A.


'[OT] Make free PDFs / Search web PDFs'
2000\05\20@084117 by Russell McMahon
picon face
Adobe have provided a web site at

http://searchpdf.adobe.com/

Which

1.    Allows you to search the content of PDF files on the web.
YA search engine but dedicated to the contents of PDF files which makes it
unique AFAIK.

2.    Make your own PDFs of a website or document FOR FREE.
This is a trial system and will quite possible stop being free in due course
(as it competes head on with their Adobe Acrobat product).



RM

2000\05\20@130121 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face
If you want to make PDF files why not bypass Adobe altogether. I have been
using Ghostscript+GSview for quite a while now and it has gotten to be
quite a nice product and of course it's free(beer and speech).

Besides useful for making PDF files it also is a good way to make bitmaps
of CAD documents for putting on webpages.

Takes a little getting used to, but well worth it. You print to disk as if
to a Postscript(Apple, NEC Silentwriter 90, QMS, etc) printer and run the
resulting file through the program.

Remember you need both programs, Ghostscript and GSview:
http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~ghost/aladdin/get601.html

Cheers,

Bob

2000\05\20@145456 by piclist.com

face picon face
Does anyone know if it is possible to make Ghostscript/GSView EXTRACT data
from PDF or PS files and make reasonable approximations in text or HTML?

Now, before everybody stops and says "you just can't do it in HTML with out
a human" I happen to know that with CSS I can precisely position each line,
word, or character of text and exactly specify the font and point size. Its
not efficient but these days, who cares? I can also draw lines, boxes, etc..
at exact locations. I've been thinking that it would be entirely possible to
write a CCS HTML printer driver. As a simple example:
http://transform.usaplaza.com/sample/sample.html

Now, I'm not necessarily recommending that program, but the sample form
shows what I mean. It's just HTML. So why can't we make PDFs into HTMLs?

James Newton, PICList Admin #3
KILLspamjamesnewtonspamspam_OUTpiclist.com
1-619-652-0593 phone
http://www.piclist.com

{Original Message removed}

'[OT] Source for pins to make DIP module like BS-2'
2000\05\20@151747 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
Hi,

Anyone have a good source for said pins?

These are pins that snap over the edge of a substrate (and are
soldered) to form pins at a right angle. They have to be the
right size/shape to be able to fit into a DIP socket (unlike,
say, 0.025" square pins from a header).

Prefer something that would fit a 0.031" (0.787mm) thick board,
but other sizes could be acceptable.

I'm looking for something that can be purchased at a reasonable
cost in relatively small quantities (~ 10,000 pins).

Thanks for any suggestions,

Best regards,

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
@spam@speffEraseMEspamTakeThisOuTinterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
Contributions invited->The AVR-gcc FAQ is at: http://www.bluecollarlinux.com
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

'[OT] Make free PDFs'
2000\05\22@152552 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face
William, I'm sending this to the piclist too because maybe it's
interesting^H^H^H^H^H useful :-)

Here's what I do.

1. Have a postscript printer driver installed in Windows. I chose the
QMS-2220 because it is an 11x17 printer. Note: I don't actually have the
printer. For connection, choose FILE: not an LPT port.

2. From your cad program, or your word processor, whatever, print to this
new printer choosing whatever paper size you want(my choices are usually
either letter 8.5x11 or Tabloid 11x17). Up pops a file requester, name it
something and suffix it .prn

3. Open up GSview and load in this prn file.

4. Then use the print command and choose "pdfwrite" for the device and
"print to file". Choose a resolution that's big, like 300 or 600dpi. Up
pops a requester, give it a name ending in .pdf

That's all it takes to make a PDF. I have subsequently figured out that to
get the pdf to view properly in a landscape format you need to ignore what
it looks like in GSview and select or create paper that is wide("ledger"
works for 11x17 plots but you have to create custom paper for letter size
landscape. Create this paper in GSview under "Media"

OK, say you want to make a bitmap for display on a web page. Follow steps
1 through 3 above and then do this:

4. Use the print command in GSview but choose "bmp256" as the device along
with "print to file". Up pops the file requester and name it something
ending in .bmp . Note: you can also use bmpmono or bmp16 depending on
compatibility with the program you use in step 5. Choose a resolution that
makes sense for web viewing or higher if you want to do smoothing in your
graphics program later.

5. Open this .bmp in a graphics program that lets you save in GIF or JPEG
and save it how you like.

Any more questions I'm happy to try to answer.

Cheers,

Bob

'How Can I make a mcu MODEMO?????'
2000\05\31@223737 by Wing Kent Kwan

flavicon
face
How Can I make a Sample Low Speed (1200-2400)BPS
MODEMO with a MCU with build in AD and DA????
THANK!


'How Can I make a mcu MODEMO?????'
2000\06\02@122143 by Wing Kent Kwan
flavicon
face
> How Can I make a Sample Low Speed (1200-2400)BPS

> MODEMO with a MCU with build in AD and DA????
> THANK!

2000\06\05@110706 by jamesnewton

face picon face
See the Modem Virtual Peripheral at
http://www.scenix.com

---
James Newton RemoveMEjamesnewtonTakeThisOuTspamgeocities.com 1-619-652-0593


-----Original Message-----
From: pic microcontroller discussion list
[RemoveMEPICLISTspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Wing Kent Kwan
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 19:35
To: KILLspamPICLISTspamspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: How Can I make a mcu MODEMO?????


How Can I make a Sample Low Speed (1200-2400)BPS
MODEMO with a MCU with build in AD and DA????
THANK!

'[PICLIST] [OT] If they make it, I will buy it'
2000\06\18@114007 by John Pearson

flavicon
face
I want an RJ45 jack that I can plug into a breadboard, like an IC.
I also want a coaxial plug jack dip that I can plug into a breadboard for
power from a wall transformer. To expand on that, how about a 5v regulator
on the same dip, 100mA would suffice.
How about a small switch with an led indicator on it for turning on and off
my circuit. Perhaps on the coaxial plug jack dip.
Anyone know where I can find these?

Thanks
John

2000\06\18@133441 by Don B. Roadman

flavicon
face
On 18 Jun 2000, at 8:42, John Pearson wrote:

> I want an RJ45 jack that I can plug into a breadboard, like an IC. I
> also want a coaxial plug jack dip that I can plug into a breadboard
> for power from a wall transformer. To expand on that, how about a 5v
> regulator on the same dip, 100mA would suffice. How about a small
> switch with an led indicator on it for turning on and off my circuit.
> Perhaps on the coaxial plug jack dip. Anyone know where I can find
> these?
>
> Thanks
> John
>
I doubt you will find such items, because they would be such low
quantity that it wouldnt pay a manufacturer's start up costs.
However, if you are willing to spend a little time screwing around
with a soldering iron, you can make your own.

Look for some Dip headers, either straight pins top and bottom, or
some that are made like component carriers. Get the nice
machined pin types that have small round leads about .2" long or
longer on at least one side. You can also use regular machined pin
IC sockets. Dont get wirewrap types or the types that have
flattened pins. Get the types that have small round pins.These will
plug into a breadboard. Now you can use glue or whatever to mount
stuff on top, and wire it to the header or component carrier. I've
been doing this for years. The last one I made was a 28 pin carrier.
It has room for a pic chip, and also the crystal and caps etc. This
way, the pic chips leads are protected because the carrier is what
is always plugged into the breadboard or programmer. You can just
as easily  put switches, small connectors, voltage regulators, or
whatever you like on them using just solder and glue if neccesary
for mechanical strength. You can do the same thing with header
strips, but it will be sip style where you plug one strip into each
side of a socket or just plut it into a breadboard.

Its a litte tedious building up something with a dozen parts on it,
but its worth it if you need something that you will be using
frequently.

2000\06\18@140006 by Damon Hopkins

flavicon
face
John Pearson wrote:
>
> I want an RJ45 jack that I can plug into a breadboard, like an IC.
> I also want a coaxial plug jack dip that I can plug into a breadboard for
> power from a wall transformer. To expand on that, how about a 5v regulator
> on the same dip, 100mA would suffice.
> How about a small switch with an led indicator on it for turning on and off
> my circuit. Perhaps on the coaxial plug jack dip.
> Anyone know where I can find these?
>
> Thanks
> John

the RJ45 jack I got from digikey seems to plug into my breadboard. I
havent tested the connections but the seem to be long enough.. I'll
check it out for ya and get back to you..

                       Damon Hopkins

2000\06\18@142533 by Dale Botkin

flavicon
face
On Sun, 18 Jun 2000, John Pearson wrote:

> I want an RJ45 jack that I can plug into a breadboard, like an IC.

Me too, if you find one please tell me where.  I have found all kinds of
RJ45 jacks, but all have had the offset two rows of pins that would
require holes on .050" centers.

> How about a small switch with an led indicator on it for turning on and off
> my circuit. Perhaps on the coaxial plug jack dip.

That one's easy, though I haven't seen one with the coax power plug on it.
Digi-key, Mouser, several other places make pushbutton switches with LEDs
built in.  Digi-Key has a searchable catalog and the whole thing in PDFs
on their site (http://www.digi-key.com/), you can find about any switch
you'd ever want.

Dale
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'[PICLIST] Someone Know to Make the DTMF with 89c51'
2000\07\03@090831 by Wing Kent Kwan
flavicon
face
Hi
 Someone Know to Make the DTMF
with 89C51????????????

thank!!!!!!!!!!!!

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'[EE]: How not to make toast.'
2000\09\04@034530 by Russell McMahon
picon face
This letter MAY be of interest.
EE here would be "electrical" rather than "electronic" engineering but there
is a solenoid in there at least. Not a fine example of product design I'm
afraid. I'm not slagging the brand as a whole - they make some good product
for the price - it's just that whoever makes their toasters for them hasn't
yet succeeded in doing so.

Decided to change Brand names to letters to avoid any possible complaints.
I'll leave mention of Breville in there as their product is very much better
value for money (in this case anyway) than the alternatives - I recommend it
(so far anyway). .

"Where Everyone gets a Bargain" is the slogan of the retailer concerned.



RM

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Carolyn Elsemore
The Warehouse
  TOASTER: B model ET44WE "Quartet" 4 slice

Carolyn,

I'm afraid that I have some more "toast" for you!
After the last toaster was returned I bought a B at twice the price.
While it does have  a timer which can accommodate Vogel's bread it still is
incapable of producing toast which is brown on both sides. The choices
available appear to be

Variably brown  / Bread
Or
Burnt / Variably brown.

It is not noticeably better than the $25 model.

I've gone into some detail below in the hope that it may be useful. Passing
this on to your supplier just may help in future. While the B toaster is no
doubt Asian sourced B have their roots at least in US/Australian customer
bases and should be able to spec an adequate product to bear their name,
regardless of price.

A major problem is that the middle element sits in an S shaped curve so that
it is closer to one piece of toast in one slot at the right hand end and in
the other slot at the left hand end. I hasten to add that where-ever you
place the bread you still don't get toast but the results do vary with
position because of the above "feature".

I have enclosed 3 "toast" samples. As you can see, results vary. This is
mainly due to position in the toaster relative to the S shaped element but
no-where works properly.

I thought about trying again at the Warehouse at an even greater price but
decided it would be too embarrassing to risk having to return toaster number
3. So instead I went to Mitre 10 - their prices for apparently equivalent
equipment are not as low. I obtained an assurance from the duty manager that
the toaster I chose (A Breville "Thick n Thin Extra Lift 4")  could be
returned if it did not make approximately evenly toasted toast. Fortunately,
it works well. Evenness is, as I would expect, not 100% all over or between
sides but it is quite good and entirely acceptable. At $70 it also has some
extra features like cool-touch plastic sides, wide slots, toast lift for
removing small bread slices,  an active toast centring system, and a pop-up
button. It also happens to sit better on a shelf that is not quite as wide
as the toaster but that's just a bonus. While the toast centring system
allows wide toast to be inserted and removed more easily the non-active
guide bars in both cheap toasters did a rather good job of centring the
toast as well so the uneven toasting is not due to the lack of such a
system.

I realise that you do tend to get what you pay for and that to some degree
it's a case of "Everyone-gets-a-bargain Emptor" but I'm surprised that even
the $25 toaster makers haven't got it even half right. This seems to show a
lack of having tried the equipment on bread liable to be used in the target
market. Presumably this task falls to you if they have not done so? I would
be rather surprised if it even worked properly on basic white bread but I
haven't tried it thereon.

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'[OT]: graphics: how many Bezier controls to make 1'
2000\10\09@080247 by Peter L. Peres
picon face
Hi,

I am doing something that requires an animation curve which must be
sinusoidal. I can only use Bezier curves to set up the graph. I have come
up with a solution that uses two Bezier curves to make a 1/2 sinus but the
result is not 'sinusoidal' enough. The Bezier control I am using uses the
pivot + 2 points input method (the 2 control points are on a line that
passes through the pivot point on the curve being traced).

Am I trying something impossible here ? Assuming that I'd use enough <any>
curves I could approximate a sinus, no ?

thanks,

Peter

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2000\10\09@084646 by Bob Ammerman

picon face
Obviously, with enough Bezier's you can make a 'practically perfect' sine
curve.

Just imagine that you make your Bezier's straight lines and then use a
piecewise linear approximation to the sine.

Ugly, but it proves the point.

The neat thing about Bezier's is you have quite a bit of control about the
shape, if you can figure out the correct control points. This should let you
get the same accuracy with far fewer segments than straight lines would
allow for.

Good luck figuring out the math.

Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems
(contract development of high performance, high function, low-level
software)

{Original Message removed}

2000\10\09@105641 by M. Adam Davis

flavicon
face
To my knowledge, beziers are based on a largely polynomial equation.  If you
want to produce a sinewave using a bezier, the closer you want to be, the more
beziers (or the more complex each bezier needs to be)

According to Don Lancaster, a Bezier curve is a type of cubic spline.  He has
quite a bit of information on cubic splines and bezier curves here:
http://www.tinaja.com/cubic01.html
This page includes a PDF in which "Jim Fitzsimmons TEX tutorial shows an eight
step approximation to a full sinewave that uses Bezier cubic splines. Each
spline curve fits 45 degrees and exactly matches value and slope at end points."
here:
http://www.tinaja.com/glib/bezsine.pdf

It seems as though Don's column is no longer included in poptronics (the
incestuous marriage of Electronics Now and Popular Electronics).  Anyone know
and care to comment why?

-Adam

"Peter L. Peres" wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2000\10\10@093837 by Lawrence Lile

flavicon
face
What program are you trying to draw in?  I would approach this by drawing an
EXACT sinusoid in a real CAD program like AutoCad, then porting it to the
other graphics program.

-- Lawrence Lile
{Original Message removed}

2000\10\10@112457 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 08:36 AM 10/10/00 -0500, you wrote:
>What program are you trying to draw in?  I would approach this by drawing an
>EXACT sinusoid in a real CAD program like AutoCad, then porting it to the
>other graphics program.

Or, in Adobe Illustrator 7.0+, just open the below very simple file as a
parsed EPS, lock it, then trace over it with Bezier curves to your required
accuracy.

Best regards,


----
%!
% draw half a sine wave

72 72 dup scale % make it 1" x 1"
/inc 0.1 def  % increment in degrees
/x 0 def
/y 0 def
/stx 1 def
/sty 1 def

stx sty moveto
0 inc 180
 {
 /x exch def
 /y x sin def
 x 180 div stx add y sty add lineto
 } for
0 setlinewidth
stroke
%showpage

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2000\10\11@162016 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
>good luck with the math

Gee, thanks ;-). Except there is no math, this is a graphical input system
and I need to drag & twist until the curve looks sinus and then the
program animates using the curve. This is not my idea, I assure you. There
may be another way to do it but I haven't figured it out yet.

I have gotten reasonably nice results with only 2 Beziers, with the pivots
at the peaks of the 1/2 sinus. I have tried a third at the zero crossing
but it made things worse. Oh, well.

Peter

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2000\10\11@162021 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
M. Adam Davis <STOPspamadavisspamUBASICS.COM> wrote:
>According to Don Lancaster, a Bezier curve is a type of cubic spline.  He
>has quite a bit of information on cubic splines and bezier curves here:
>http://www.tinaja.com/cubic01.html

Thanks !

Peter

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2000\10\11@175520 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
>what program

It's an animation program that was never meant to be used the way I am using
it ;-). Your idea is good but if there had been a way to do that I would not
have posted the question ... and yet there might be a way. I'll try to get
hold of the people who wrote this thing.

thanks,

Peter

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2000\10\11@175526 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
>EPS sinus algorythm

Thank you for the algorythm, but that is not an option. Anyway nice of you
to post Fort^H^H^H^H Post Script source files inline. It reminds people of
things ;-)

Peter

PS: My latest saying:

Unix has a lot of four letter commands with twenty page apologies.

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'[PICLIST] [OT] How to make PCB at home?'
2000\10\12@064524 by John Waters

picon face
Hi All,

I want to make some PCB myself at home, but have no experience at all. I
read up some articles on PCB making and decided to use the "Photo
Developing" method. The following is the steps I understood (please bring
up, if any step is wrong):-

1. Use a CAD program to generate the circuit layout.
2. Print it out on a transparency using a laser printer.
3. Cover up a photo-sensitized board with the transparency.
4. Expose the board to light.
5. Develop the board.
6. Etch the board.

Step 2 to 6 looks o.k. to me, but I'm not sure what CAD program to use. As a
newbie in PCB making, I don't think it is easy to master a professional CAD
program like the Protel and Eagle. Moreover, I couldn't afford to buy such a
program just for a part-time activity. Could anyone suggest me a "free" and
simple to use CAD program? I just need it to generate the circuit layout for
printing on the transparency.

Thanks in advance!

John



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2000\10\12@071303 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Could anyone suggest me a "free" and
>simple to use CAD program? I just need it to generate the circuit layout for
>printing on the transparency.

Use a program like Easytrax, which has the ability to print directly to an HP LaserJet. Other free programs probably have similar facilities. The printer will probably be described under the generic term "PCL" or "HPPCL", these being the HP equivalent of Post Script.
If your printer can already do post Script, then Easytrax can do that as well. Again other free programs can probably do the same.

If you have difficulty getting your masters properly printed, so they are black enough without lots of pinholes etc, then put the post script file onto a floppy, and see if you can get a printing house to do a "Post Script to Film" job for you. This seems to be how a lot of publishing is done these days. In the printing process they can rotate, reverse and mirror image, so it is wise to provide prints of the way you expect the film to look from the non-emulsion side.

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2000\10\12@075143 by Russell McMahon

picon face
>I want to make some PCB myself at home
>The following is the steps I understood
>1. Use a CAD program to generate the circuit layout.
>2. Print it out on a transparency using a laser printer.
>3. Cover up a photo-sensitized board with the transparency.
>4. Expose the board to light.
>5. Develop the board.
>6. Etch the board.
>
>Step 2 to 6 looks o.k. to me, but I'm not sure what CAD program to use. As
a
>newbie in PCB making, I don't think it is easy to master a professional CAD
>program like the Protel and Eagle. Moreover, I couldn't afford to buy such
a
>program just for a part-time activity. Could anyone suggest me a "free" and
>simple to use CAD program? I just need it to generate the circuit layout
for
>printing on the transparency.


Eagle supply a FREE version of their program.
It is limited in size of board that you can make but otherwise I think it is
fairly complete.
( see their site - don't have URL here )

Most CAD programs seem impossibly hard at first but reward well a little
time spent learning.

The above steps are correct.
One useful trick when printing your own negatives is to print TWO copies and
stick them together, being sure to align them as well as you can.
The extra density can help. This decreases quality due to minor differences
in the two prints BUT increases density which can make for a better image
ion the pcb.



regards

               Russell McMahon

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2000\10\12@090035 by Lorick

flavicon
face
> The above steps are correct.
> One useful trick when printing your own negatives is to print TWO copies
and
> stick them together, being sure to align them as well as you can.
> The extra density can help. This decreases quality due to minor
differences
> in the two prints BUT increases density which can make for a better image
> ion the pcb.

I've been wondering about getting into board making too but I can't figure
out if there's a benefit to pos or neg methods, and also I don't know how to
go about getting started with the whole etching and development process.  I
know Digikey sells a little ensemble but one guy (who introduced  me to the
PIC 2 years ago!)
told me not to get that, though I forget why.

What are pros/cons/factors in deciding pos or neg method, and what should a
beginning be looking to buy to set up a tank/board exposure/other
requirements?

CAD is another problem for me.  Whenever I try to take a schematic and route
it, I get too many vias and headaches even with components widely separated
on a double sided board with various different routing optoins set...then I
look at some other very densely populated board that seems to be laid out
fine, and I wonder how they did it...

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2000\10\12@091320 by staff

flavicon
face
Lorick wrote:
>
> > The above steps are correct.
> > One useful trick when printing your own negatives is to print TWO copies
> and
> > stick them together, being sure to align them as well as you can.
> > The extra density can help. This decreases quality due to minor
> differences
> > in the two prints BUT increases density which can make for a better image
> > ion the pcb.
>
> I've been wondering about getting into board making too but I can't figure
> out if there's a benefit to pos or neg methods, and also I don't know how to
> go about getting started with the whole etching and development process.  I
> know Digikey sells a little ensemble but one guy (who introduced  me to the
> PIC 2 years ago!)
> told me not to get that, though I forget why.

I am probably going to get a reputation as the "dark ages" guy but
here goes again. :o) What's wrong with using the good old fashioned DALO
pen for small projects?? I still use this technology for simple boards
that are not too dense or size critical. I draw the board on 0.1"
graph paper, then stick the paper to the board, then centre punch the
pin holes, then use DALO pen to draw tracks between pins and just etch
it. I have actually used waterproof marker pens when the DALO run out.
Works fine. I has a friend that used to use nail varnish and a fine
brush. Sure it is a "one off" project, but is still a quick way
to make a board in a hurry. :o)

{Quote hidden}

I find with cad boards it is much neater if you keep ALL pins on the
0.1" grid, autorouters like this a lot. Also check autorouter clearance
of track/edge, track/track etc. This can neaten it up a lot too.

I have a small home-made CNC setup almost finished, will have a lot of
fun with this making boards in a couple of months! :o)
-Roman

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2000\10\12@092537 by Eric Chan

picon face
John,

Using a laser printer on transparency does not give you, in most cases,
workable dark traces.  I think just print it onto typing paper is
better.  The image has to be flipped before printing and place the
printed pattern facing towards the photoresist coating.  An exposure
time, if using the sun light, 8 to 10 minutes at 900 incident angle
should be adequate.  Like many have mentioned, it is better to
over-exposed then under.  I have tried putting a little cooking oil on
the paper to make it translucent.  It does shorten the exposure time
without causing noticeable problem.  A PCB having  0.010-0.020" traces
can be made easily.

Good luck

Eric


John Waters wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2000\10\12@094415 by Arthur Brown

flavicon
face
for small one off quick and dirty try Etch Resistant PCB rub down transfers,
these are meant for use on film but are acid resistant.
use assorted pads and ic layout then you could then use a marker pen or as I
use a small brush and enamel paint, this takes a while to dry but is acid
resistant.

you could also use the iron on transfer method see archive.........I think
only alliterative methods only should be posted.

Regards Art

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2000\10\12@094950 by Lawrence Lile

flavicon
face
I started out with an etch resist pen.  It works, but it's tedious and hard
to erase mistakes.  Don't buy your pen at radio sharck, they are no good.
The ink comes off during etching.   Go to an art store and get a Lumocolor
#313 red from Staedtler.  I use these to touch up photoplots, and also when
I used to use a pen plotter to make PCB's.  These pens use ink that is
indestructible.

You can get a nice, handy kit from http://www.kepro.com  that has a 4"x6"
presensitized board, and other things you'll need.  They are an excellent
source of information, too.  I always print negatives on a piece of clear
mylar (from a drafting store) using Eagle (which is cheap and not hard to
learn. )

Learn a CAD system, it doesn't matter which one you use, the time will be
well spent.

-- Lawrence Lile


{Original Message removed}

'[OT]: graphics: how many Bezier controls to make 1'
2000\10\12@095406 by M. Adam Davis

flavicon
face
I imagine the system will import postscript files.  If so, then you can make it
into a math problem.  Figure out the bezier(s) mathematically, describe them in
postscript, and import them into your program.

If your program doesn't import postscript (or HPGL, or another generic ascii
vector language), then bang your head against a wall repeatedly, and chant,
"It's not worth the pain!  It's not worth the pain!"

-Adam

"Peter L. Peres" wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2000\10\12@100711 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 09:52 AM 10/12/00 -0400, you wrote:
>I imagine the system will import postscript files.  If so, then you can
make it
>into a math problem.  Figure out the bezier(s) mathematically, describe
them in
>postscript, and import them into your program.
>
>If your program doesn't import postscript (or HPGL, or another generic ascii
>vector language), then bang your head against a wall repeatedly, and chant,
>"It's not worth the pain!  It's not worth the pain!"

Yes, using the simple program I posted to generate an almost perfect sine
as short line segments and tracing over it,  I was able to nicely describe a
1/2 sine-wave in Illustrator using about 8 bezier curves, in about 2 minutes.
Error was maybe 0.1%.

The coefficients could be extracted from the generated Postscript code (the
.ai file is a kind of Postscript with some predefined shortcuts) but that
would take a lot more time (for me anyway) and there are doubtless some
strange scale factors that would be involved.

As far as actually optimizing bezier curves to match a sine wave, this could
be done either mathematically (maybe!) or numerically, and I'd suggest the
latter. Any kind of program that will do multi-dimensional optimization
should be able to do it. I'd still start with Illustrator to pick a good
starting point for where the Bezier curves should begin and end.

Best regards,



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'[PICLIST] [OT] How to make PCB at home?'
2000\10\12@104704 by mike

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On Thu, 12 Oct 2000 10:45:05 GMT, you wrote:

>Hi All,
>
>I want to make some PCB myself at home, but have no experience at all. I
>read up some articles on PCB making and decided to use the "Photo
>Developing" method. The following is the steps I understood (please bring
>up, if any step is wrong):-
>
>1. Use a CAD program to generate the circuit layout.
>2. Print it out on a transparency using a laser printer.
Use thick tracing paper - much cheaper and better than transparencies.
>3. Cover up a photo-sensitized board with the transparency.
>4. Expose the board to light.
>5. Develop the board.
>6. Etch the board.
>
Check out http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~wwl/pcbs.html for a complete guide to
making high-quality homebrew PCBs.
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2000\10\12@105327 by Andy Howard

picon face
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lorick" <KILLspamlorickEraseMEspamspam_OUTAIR.ON.CA>
To: <TakeThisOuTPICLISTspam_OUTspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 1:59 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] How to make PCB at home?



> CAD is another problem for me.  Whenever I try to take a schematic and
route
> it, I get too many vias and headaches even with components widely
separated
> on a double sided board with various different routing optoins set...then
I
> look at some other very densely populated board that seems to be laid out
> fine, and I wonder how they did it...


Assuming your cad package shows connections when placing components then try
moving ICs around, rotating them etc. If the connection lines cross that
means a via, and if rotating/moving a part doesn't untangle enough them then
see if you can change port assignments etc. to sort them out again. Simple
autorouters often need human help to make sensible decisions, e.g. manually
running a trace the long way round to avoid trying to cross several other
lines.

Even with the most intelligent CAD autorouter it's often beneficial to lay
some traces manually but a lot can be done with careful planning. Also, the
breadboard stage of a project is a good place to check how easy it will be
to lay out connections, e.g. from ports to other devices, running busses
etc. There isn't any easy answer to this problem, the best boards you see
are probably the work of specialist PCB designers with years of experience.





.

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'[EE]: I2C Real Time Clock (RTC) ? Who makes a good'
2000\10\12@114314 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
Hi,

Looking for a good, cheap I2C RTC chip or module.

I know about the Epson parts, what else good is out there?

If the crystal and/or the backup power switch is built in, all
the better, but need the price to be reasonable (a few dollars
in 100's).

Best regards,

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
STOPspamspeffspamspaminterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
Contributions invited->The AVR-gcc FAQ is at: http://www.bluecollarlinux.com
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'[PICLIST] +AFs-OT+AF0- How to make PCB at home?'
2000\10\12@125329 by Lawrence Lile

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I had to modify the plotter by drilling out an old plotter pen (a messy
job - ink goes everywhere) to the right diameter to fit my +ACM-313 (not +ACM-318)
lumocolor pen.  That part wasn't too hard.  Also had to hack out a big part
of the case to allow the pen to travel.  Also not too hard.  Used an HP pen
plotter. Search the piclist archives and yoiu'll find a long description of
several people's trials and tribulations with pen plotting PC boards.

The results on a pen plotter were never very consistent, and I finally
abandoned it in favor of photoplotting methods.  Pens can skip, run out of
ink,  or the nib busts off when they run off the edge of a thick piece of
paper, etc. etc.  Also have a finite limit on line size the same as the pen,
maybe 0.020+ACI-?? I forget.  Not really very fine.

You avoid having a UV light and a pan of chemicals for photoplotting, but
these are not hard to get and not too much trouble.  I'd recommend against
the pen plotter idea having done it.

-- Lawrence Lile


----- Original Message -----
From: +ACI-Maxime Prati+ACI- +ADw-mprati+AEA-postech.ca+AD4-
To: +ACI-'Lawrence Lile'+ACI- +ADw-llile+AEA-toastmaster.com+AD4-
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2000 11:21 AM
Subject: RE: +AFs-OT+AF0- How to make PCB at home?


+AD4- Hi +ACE-
+AD4-
+AD4- I'm in the process to pen plotter with my Roland plotter my own pc
board...
+AD4-
+AD4- Did you put a +ACM-318 lumocolor pen on your plotter ? How did you do that ?
+AD4- Did you like the results ?
+AD4-
+AD4- I'd like to have some hints to help me in my project.
+AD4-
+AD4- Thank you very much
+AD4-
+AD4-
+AD4-
+AD4- +ACI-Eagles soar, but weasels never get sucked into jet engines.+ACI-
+AD4-
+AD4- Maxime Prati
+AD4- Embedded Systems Development
+AD4- Position Technology
+AD4- http://www.postech.ca
+AD4- mprati+AEA-postech.ca
+AD4-
+AD4- +AD4- {Original Message removed}

2000\10\12@130306 by mike

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>CAD is another problem for me.  Whenever I try to take a schematic and route
>it, I get too many vias and headaches even with components widely separated
>on a double sided board with various different routing optoins set...then I
>look at some other very densely populated board that seems to be laid out
>fine, and I wonder how they did it...
A) Years of experience
B) Not even thinking about using an autorouter! They're OK if you have
plenty of layers to play with but mostly useless on 2-layer PCBs.
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2000\10\12@130309 by mike

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On Thu, 12 Oct 2000 09:16:02 -0400, you wrote:

>John,
>
>Using a laser printer on transparency does not give you, in most cases,
>workable dark traces.  I think just print it onto typing paper is
>better.  The image has to be flipped before printing and place the
>printed pattern facing towards the photoresist coating.  An exposure
>time, if using the sun light, 8 to 10 minutes at 900 incident angle
>should be adequate.  Like many have mentioned, it is better to
>over-exposed then under.  I have tried putting a little cooking oil on
>the paper to make it translucent.  It does shorten the exposure time
>without causing noticeable problem.  A PCB having  0.010-0.020" traces
>can be made easily.
Use thick tracing paper - it's already translucent and very cheap. The
thin stuff (<90gsm) crinkles too much.
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'[EE]: I2C Real Time Clock (RTC) ? Who makes a good'
2000\10\12@131129 by Jilles Oldenbeuving

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Take a look at the Philips PCF8563, take a look at their
website... a search would turn it up in no time...

Regards,

Jilles Oldenbeuving
STOPspamjillesTakeThisOuTspam.....rendo.dekooi.nl
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: Spehro Pefhany <spam_OUTspeffspam_OUTspamspamINTERLOG.COM>
Aan: TakeThisOuTPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU <EraseMEPICLIST@spam@spamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Datum: donderdag 12 oktober 2000 17:42
Onderwerp: [EE]: I2C Real Time Clock (RTC) ? Who makes a good and cheap one?


{Quote hidden}

-=
>Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the
reward"
>spamBeGonespeffKILLspamspaminterlog.com             Info for manufacturers:
http://www.trexon.com
>Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:
http://www.speff.com
>Contributions invited->The AVR-gcc FAQ is at:
http://www.bluecollarlinux.com
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
-=
>
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'[PICLIST] [OT] How to make PCB at home?'
2000\10\12@133106 by M. Adam Davis

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I personally like the idea of using a 900 degree incident angle.  Just like our
canine friends, you should turn the board over 3 times before settling it in its
spot. ;-)

-Adam

> On Thu, 12 Oct 2000 09:16:02 -0400, you wrote:
> >An exposure
> >time, if using the sun light, 8 to 10 minutes at 900 incident angle
> >should be adequate.  Like many have mentioned, it is better to
> >over-exposed then under.  I have tried putting a little cooking oil on
> >the paper to make it translucent.  It does shorten the exposure time
> >without causing noticeable problem.  A PCB having  0.010-0.020" traces
> >can be made easily.

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'[EE]: I2C Real Time Clock (RTC) ? Who makes a good'
2000\10\12@141652 by ckchan

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Greetings,

check out also DS1307, but need external xtal and 3v lithium battery.

regards,
ckchan


Spehro Pefhany wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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'[PICLIST] +AFs-OT+AF0- How to make PCB at home?'
2000\10\12@142430 by Dale Botkin

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face
On Thu, 12 Oct 2000, Lawrence Lile wrote:

> I had to modify the plotter by drilling out an old plotter pen (a messy
> job - ink goes everywhere) to the right diameter to fit my +ACM-313 (not +ACM-318)
> lumocolor pen.  That part wasn't too hard.  Also had to hack out a big part
> of the case to allow the pen to travel.  Also not too hard.  Used an HP pen
> plotter. Search the piclist archives and yoiu'll find a long description of
> several people's trials and tribulations with pen plotting PC boards.
>
> The results on a pen plotter were never very consistent, and I finally
> abandoned it in favor of photoplotting methods.  Pens can skip, run out of
> ink,  or the nib busts off when they run off the edge of a thick piece of
> paper, etc. etc.  Also have a finite limit on line size the same as the pen,
> maybe 0.020+ACI-?? I forget.  Not really very fine.
>
> You avoid having a UV light and a pan of chemicals for photoplotting, but
> these are not hard to get and not too much trouble.  I'd recommend against
> the pen plotter idea having done it.

I dunno, I had pretty good luck with it.  I used a permanent-ink art store
pen with fiber tip, it was a .5mm (don't remember the brand, but there are
plenty).  HP plotter (7474?) wearing IBM logo, no mods to the plotter
other than leaving the pen cover up and manually loading the pen.  I set
the plot speed down to 1 in/sec and let it go.  Did have to tape the PCB
material to paper, the plotter would not move the fiberglass reliably.
I'd still be doing it if 90% of my stuff didn't need to be double sided.

Dale
---
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new
discoveries, is not "Eureka!" (I found it!) but "That's funny ..."
               -- Isaac Asimov

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2000\10\12@142846 by David VanHorn

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One approach that always intrigued me, was to plot directly onto the PCB
material using a UV light through a fiber.  I've never tried it, but it
seems reasonable that it would work.

Exposure time would be controlled by pen speed, but I'm not sure how much
power you'd need down the pipe to make it work..

Same basic technique though, put the fiber down an old pen (ink type, with
metal nib) and have at it.

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2000\10\12@143432 by David VanHorn

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>
>B) Not even thinking about using an autorouter! They're OK if you have
>plenty of layers to play with but mostly useless on 2-layer PCBs.

You got that right.

I've used the old dos orcad for years, it's autorouter is about average,
but it's useful for finding the "choke points".

I just installed the P-CAD 2000 demo, and so far, if anything, it's worse!
It is running tracks across each other, which is at least one thing you
could count on orcad NEVER to do.  It's crashed twice during routing,
something else good old orcad never did.. And they only want $10k for it.

So far, I'm sticking with Orcad.
I have an egroup for it also, "dos-orcad"

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2000\10\12@143435 by Dale Botkin

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On Thu, 12 Oct 2000, David VanHorn wrote:

> One approach that always intrigued me, was to plot directly onto the PCB
> material using a UV light through a fiber.  I've never tried it, but it
> seems reasonable that it would work.
>
> Exposure time would be controlled by pen speed, but I'm not sure how much
> power you'd need down the pipe to make it work..
>
> Same basic technique though, put the fiber down an old pen (ink type, with
> metal nib) and have at it.

Interesting thought...  roll-your-own Gerber photoplotter, eh?  Given the
diameter of the average fiber, a larger pad could take a while to plot,
though.  Wonder if it's practical?

Dale
---
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new
discoveries, is not "Eureka!" (I found it!) but "That's funny ..."
               -- Isaac Asimov

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2000\10\12@143843 by David VanHorn

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>
>Interesting thought...  roll-your-own Gerber photoplotter, eh?  Given the
>diameter of the average fiber, a larger pad could take a while to plot,
>though.  Wonder if it's practical?

Better than gerber, it's "Direct to PCB", making your audio amplifier sound
more lifelike than you ever dreamed it could, by eliminating distortions
caused by the intermediate processes. :)

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2000\10\12@143846 by Andrew Kunz

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I'm fortunate in being able to use Specctra and Accell.  These do a great job,
even on tight 2-layer boards.

Andy









David VanHorn <EraseMEdvanhornTakeThisOuTspamCEDAR.NET> on 10/12/2000 02:30:40 PM

Please respond to pic microcontroller discussion list <KILLspamPICLISTspamRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU>








To:      PICLISTTakeThisOuTspamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU

cc:      (bcc: Andrew Kunz/TDI_NOTES)



Subject: Re: [OT] How to make PCB at home?








>
>B) Not even thinking about using an autorouter! They're OK if you have
>plenty of layers to play with but mostly useless on 2-layer PCBs.

You got that right.

I've used the old dos orcad for years, it's autorouter is about average,
but it's useful for finding the "choke points".

I just installed the P-CAD 2000 demo, and so far, if anything, it's worse!
It is running tracks across each other, which is at least one thing you
could count on orcad NEVER to do.  It's crashed twice during routing,
something else good old orcad never did.. And they only want $10k for it.

So far, I'm sticking with Orcad.
I have an egroup for it also, "dos-orcad"

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