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PICList Thread
'Buying PICs in bulk '
1994\08\01@145133 by Mark Forbes

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face

I think that standard electronics distribution channels would be
good for this sort of thing. I don't know if they can get down
much below $6.56, but I know I paid about $1.80 for 54LP/Ps back
about 1992. Of course, I bought 11K of them.......

Call your local Microchip distributor. If you'd include your
physical location, it'd be easier for us to point you in the
right direction.

spam_OUTforbesmTakeThisOuTspamcsos.orst.edu
Mark G. Forbes


'16C84 bulk erase problems'
1995\10\10@102824 by Newfound Electronics
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face
Does anyone have any experience with the 16C84 bulk erase feature? I cannot
get it to work properly. I have been through the data book with a fine tooth
comb and cannot fine anything to help me. I have all other programming
aspects working perfectly and the routines are well tried and established.

This is my proceedure:

Enter programming mode
send command: 09 (Bulk erase program area)
send command 08 (begin programming)
Wait 10mS

I have tried both serial and parallel methods but I get a variety of stange
effects. Usually something happens but I'm expecting to see a lovely display
full of 3FFFs but instead I get 0000 often, and other strange values like
02B8, 1004 and others.

As I am well experienced in all aspects of programming these suckers, I
can't understand why this has got me beat.

Does anyone have an idea to help?

'LMD 18200 Bulk Buy'
1995\10\16@202816 by Ben L Wirz

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       As you may or may not know, I have been trying to put together a
bulk order for the National Semiconductor LMD 18200 H Bridge Motor
Control IC.  If you did not get this directly, I.E. from a list server or
news group, you are not on my direct mail macro.  If are interested in
this, E-mail me to be put on the macro.  (I don't want to broadcast my
home address to thousands of people, just those who need it for the final
order.)

Status of the Order:

36 loose orders (Many dependant on final price)

I have found a local supplier with 2,000 in stock : no lead time

I will require prepay in the form of a check or money order

Once I get everybodies money, the order should be processed very quick
(Well that depends on how many packages I can talk/beg my wife into
helping with)

I will provide tech sheets for $2.00 (You can get these free if you WWW
access at Nationals Home Page)

Shipping and Handling will be $5.00 per Order, Outside US extra (Never
done it before so I don't know how much, I will check into it if need be)

Assuming the order doesn't reach the next price break of 100, what
everybody has been waiting for...
       It will be $16.00 per unit : $7.00 a unit savings over DigiKey

       And to sweeten the deal, if you buy 5 or more I will make it $15.00.

       (Not much difference in work between 1 and 5, so I will pass some
       more savings to you)

       This is slightly higher than what I have to pay, but I need a
little incentive to make it worth all my trouble.  I have already spent
about 8 hours on this in E-mail responses.

       As I said before, E-mail me if you are interested so I can put
you on the macro to receive my home address, order status, and check
info.  If anyone has static bags or knows where I can get them please let
me know!

Ben,
.....blw2KILLspamspam@spam@cec.wustl.edu

P.S.  I will try to answer any questions, but this is turning into a big
project!

1995\10\17@135717 by Brian Peter Schmalz

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>        It will be $16.00 per unit : $7.00 a unit savings over DigiKey

>        And to sweeten the deal, if you buy 5 or more I will make it $15.00.

>        (Not much difference in work between 1 and 5, so I will pass some
>        more savings to you)

I would send you a check today, but the money that I buy these with is comming
from a grant that hasn't been approved yet. (It will, but the money hasn't been
transfered to somewhere where I can get to it yet.) It will probably be able to
pay you with a Lawrence University check in about 3 weeks. Were you planning to
order sooner than that?

*Brian Schmalz
/------------------------------------------\
|               Brian Schmalz              |
|             Lawrence University          |
|                Appleton, WI              |
|        Brian.P.SchmalzspamKILLspamLawrence.edu      |
| http://ellen.acad.lawrence.edu/~schmalzb |
|            ftp://143.44.104.32           |
\------------------------------------------/

'Bulk Buy of 16C84?'
1995\10\31@172900 by Ben L Wirz
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       Is there interest in doing a bulk buy of PIC 16C84's, or perhaps
another PIC?  I know this one is very popular due to eeprom, and I need
several for upcoming projects.  I thought if there is interest, I would
try to put together a bulk purchase and save everyone some money.
       I was thinking of the of the 10 Mhz, 18 pin Dip package.  By
getting the faster speed everyone will be satisfied, even though it cost
a little more.  If there is interest in 25 units, we can get a
decent discount over the 1 piece price.  If there is interest in
100 or 1000 it is much cheaper, I like to be optimistic.
       If your interested, email me directly with aproximate of how many
you might be interested in.  I will put everyone who is intersted on a
email macro to keep you up to date.  I wished I could publish prices, but
I want to see what kind of price break we can get first based on
the interest poll.  (It should definately be <$10)

       This will be the second bulk buy I have organized, and I will try
to provide references if anyone wants.  On that note, I will have several
LMD 18200 Full Bridge Motor Control IC's left over if anyone is
interested (6 amp surge!).

Thanks,
Ben
.....blw2KILLspamspam.....cec.wustl.edu

1995\10\31@175238 by Chris Smolinski

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>        Is there interest in doing a bulk buy of PIC 16C84's, or perhaps
>another PIC?  I know this one is very popular due to eeprom, and I need
>several for upcoming projects.  I thought if there is interest, I would
>try to put together a bulk purchase and save everyone some money.
>        I was thinking of the of the 10 Mhz, 18 pin Dip package.  By
>getting the faster speed everyone will be satisfied, even though it cost
>a little more.  If there is interest in 25 units, we can get a
>decent discount over the 1 piece price.  If there is interest in
>100 or 1000 it is much cheaper, I like to be optimistic.
>        If your interested, email me directly with aproximate of how many
>you might be interested in.  I will put everyone who is intersted on a
>email macro to keep you up to date.  I wished I could publish prices, but
>I want to see what kind of price break we can get first based on
>the interest poll.  (It should definately be <$10)
>

I'm planning on using the PIC16C84 in a project at work, and checked
pricing. I need about 500 of 'em (two build two systems, each has 256 PICs,
each PIC monitors a photodiode to check for a pulse of light at a certain
time, and then processes the information and presents it on a common bus to
be read by a 486. I wonder if this would be a record for the most PICs in a
single product???)

Anyway, I was quoted around $5 or so each. I'll have to check the pricing
info at work tomorrow to make sure. If you can get the volume up, you
certainly should get the price break.

Any idea why Microchip doesn't make any other PICs with EE program memory?
I need the ability to re-program the PICs in-circuit, so that left the
16C84 as the only possibility.

Chris


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                      -Ben Franklin

1995\10\31@182023 by David Knell

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face
At 16:25 31/10/95 -0600, you wrote:
>        Is there interest in doing a bulk buy of PIC 16C84's, or perhaps
>another PIC?  I know this one is very popular due to eeprom, and I need
>several for upcoming projects.  I thought if there is interest, I would
>try to put together a bulk purchase and save everyone some money.
...

We currently buy 16C84s (4Mhz version) at 1.76 pounds.  That's about 2.5
of your Earth dollars...

Dave

1995\10\31@205320 by Robert L. Powell

picon face
>        Is there interest in doing a bulk buy of PIC 16C84's, or perhaps
>another PIC?
<SNIP>

I am! :-) I'll take 5.

>        This will be the second bulk buy I have organized, and I will try
>to provide references if anyone wants.  On that note, I will have several
>LMD 18200 Full Bridge Motor Control IC's left over if anyone is
>interested (6 amp surge!).
How much for one of the LMD 18200s?

- R. L. Powell


'Bulk Buy of 16C84?'
1995\11\01@044723 by att%atlas.king.ac.uk%UKACRL.bitnet
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face
>        Is there interest in doing a bulk buy of PIC 16C84's, or
> perhaps another PIC?  I know this one is very popular due to eeprom,
> and I need several for upcoming projects.

> Thanks,
> Ben
> blw2spamspam_OUTcec.wustl.edu

I would but I'm in the UK so there would be no point. Incidentally,
has anyone in the UK managed to get 16C84s for less than the RS price
of about 8 pounds?

/\/\att.

1995\11\01@044931 by att%atlas.king.ac.uk%UKACRL.bitnet

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> We currently buy 16C84s (4Mhz version) at 1.76 pounds.  That's about
> 2.5 of your Earth dollars...

> Dave

Where? Where? Superb! What quantity?

/\/\att.

1995\11\01@154340 by Winston Poon

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{Quote hidden}

       Put me down for five (5) pieces.  Thank you.

1995\11\01@163906 by David Brenegan

picon face
Put me down for five (5) pieces also. Thanks.
_David Brenegan

1995\11\02@031432 by Jeff Fisher

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>I would but I'm in the UK so there would be no point. Incidentally,
>has anyone in the UK managed to get 16C84s for less than the RS price
>of about 8 pounds?
>
>/\/\att.

Wow, does Radio Shack sell PICs in the UK?

-Jeff

1995\11\02@053028 by ervo Vesa (NMP)

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Jeff writes:
>Wow, does Radio Shack sell PICs in the UK?

You can get PIC's from Farnell in the UK.

Vesa

1995\11\02@060839 by David Knell

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face
At 12:28 02/11/95 GMT, you wrote:
>Jeff writes:
>>Wow, does Radio Shack sell PICs in the UK?
>
>You can get PIC's from Farnell in the UK.
>
>Vesa

I think this is a cultural difference we're seeing here - RS
in the UK refers to RadioSpares, a large, slick mail-order
operation for electronic components.  Not Radio Shack
(Tandy) who are a high-street electronic goods merchant
who also sell some electronic components like:
14-pin Integrated Circuit! Only 99p!
Blue Capacitors!  3 for 49p!

Dave

1995\11\02@070808 by m.d.simpson.bra0505

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RS - Radio Spares in the UK.  They're a reasonably sized company
selling parts aimed at business.  They do a pretty nifty couple
of hour delivery service too.
Radio shack is called Tandy over here.  Tandy, sell pretty much
the same stock as RS in the US, but the prices are the same
dollar for pound.  What costs you $5 in the states, costs us






        5 pounds in the UK (not a very good exchange rate you could say).

        So, what would be expensive normally, is more expensive in Tandys.

        Mark

1995\11\02@075026 by David Tatusko

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At 09:45 AM 11/1/95 GMT0BST, you wrote:
>> We currently buy 16C84s (4Mhz version) at 1.76 pounds.  That's about
>> 2.5 of your Earth dollars...
>
>> Dave
>
>Where? Where? Superb! What quantity?
>
>/\/\att.
>
>

If we can get 'em for 2.5 or 3 bucks a piece I'll definitely take 10,
probably 20.

'Why not EEPROM PICs? (Was: Bulk Buy of 16C84)'
1995\11\02@111754 by Martin Nilsson

picon face
(I hope Microchip folks listen, and correct me if I'm wrong!)  I have
heard the following reasons from Microchip reps:

1. Why not more EEPROM PICs: Microchip's EEPROM technology
requires a lot of silicon area. Other features are not worth trading
off for EEPROM.

2. Why not use more space efficient flash prom technology: Microchip
would have to license such technology from outside, which is not part
of their policy.

3. Micro chip believes few (big) customers are interested in EEPROM.
Allegedly, they use only OTP-versions for volume production. For
development, UV-EPROM are considered enough. The ability to reprogram
in-circuit is considered to be of marginal importance. (At several PIC
seminars I have visited, participants have stressed it would be useful
to be able to reprogram new versions, test programs etc., in
circuit, in particular for SMD PICs, but Microchip has not commented
on this.)

4. Actually, it has turned out that the 16C84 does sell very well, but
Microchip attributes this to the EE-programmable _data_ memory, not
_program_ memory. This interest is ascribed to students and hobbyists
(i.e. not much of a business).

I do hope that Microchip will rethink its strategy regarding
EEPROM. In particular, a 16C73 with EEPROM/Flash PROM would be close
to the ultimate microcontroller, in my opinion. Other companies, for
instance Intel, are now beginning to catch up here.

Martin Nilsson
Swedish Institute of Computer Science    E-mail: KILLspammnKILLspamspamsics.se
Box 1263, S-164 28 Kista                 Fax: +46-8-751-7230
Sweden                                   Tel: +46-8-752-1574

{Quote hidden}

'Bulk Buy of 16C84?'
1995\11\02@180150 by Edward Tang

picon face
David Tatusko <hksuper!NOWHERE.PDIAL.INTERPATH.NET!outta> writes:

> At 09:45 AM 11/1/95 GMT0BST, you wrote:
> >> We currently buy 16C84s (4Mhz version) at 1.76 pounds.  That's about
> >> 2.5 of your Earth dollars...
> >
> >> Dave
> >
> >Where? Where? Superb! What quantity?
> >
> >/\/\att.
> >
> >
>
> If we can get 'em for 2.5 or 3 bucks a piece I'll definitely take 10,
> probably 20.

       I also.

Edward Tang

'Why not EEPROM PICs? (Was: Bulk Buy of 16C84)'
1995\11\02@221751 by BBoles

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    Of course Microchip listens...

    However, we are still a relatively small company and out of the
    1,000,000 things we have to do, program memory EEPROM PIC's are about
    number 736,492.

    Also, when we ask our larger customers (who don't need to get together
    to make bulk buys) what they will pay for a reprogrammable 16C73 as
    opposed to a EPROM 16C73, the answer just isn't the one we want to
    hear.

    Everyone out there really needs to talk to a guy in Taiwan who will
    give his mother and his left nut for a micro that costs 10 cents less.
    The real world can be a scary place!

    Rgds, Brian.                             spamBeGonebbolesspamBeGonespammicrochip.com


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Why not EEPROM PICs? (Was: Bulk Buy of 16C84)
Author:  Martin Nilsson <TakeThisOuTmnEraseMEspamspam_OUTSICS.SE> at Internet_Exchange
Date:    11/1/95 2:13 PM


(I hope Microchip folks listen, and correct me if I'm wrong!)  I have
heard the following reasons from Microchip reps:

1. Why not more EEPROM PICs: Microchip's EEPROM technology
requires a lot of silicon area. Other features are not worth trading
off for EEPROM.

2. Why not use more space efficient flash prom technology: Microchip
would have to license such technology from outside, which is not part
of their policy.

3. Micro chip believes few (big) customers are interested in EEPROM.
Allegedly, they use only OTP-versions for volume production. For
development, UV-EPROM are considered enough. The ability to reprogram
in-circuit is considered to be of marginal importance. (At several PIC
seminars I have visited, participants have stressed it would be useful
to be able to reprogram new versions, test programs etc., in
circuit, in particular for SMD PICs, but Microchip has not commented
on this.)

4. Actually, it has turned out that the 16C84 does sell very well, but
Microchip attributes this to the EE-programmable _data_ memory, not
_program_ memory. This interest is ascribed to students and hobbyists
(i.e. not much of a business).

I do hope that Microchip will rethink its strategy regarding
EEPROM. In particular, a 16C73 with EEPROM/Flash PROM would be close
to the ultimate microcontroller, in my opinion. Other companies, for
instance Intel, are now beginning to catch up here.

Martin Nilsson
Swedish Institute of Computer Science    E-mail: RemoveMEmnspamTakeThisOuTsics.se
Box 1263, S-164 28 Kista                 Fax: +46-8-751-7230
Sweden                                   Tel: +46-8-752-1574

{Quote hidden}

1995\11\03@020106 by BBoles

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face
    Of course Microchip listens...

    However, we are still a relatively small company and out of the
    1,000,000 things we have to do, program memory EEPROM PIC's are about
    number 736,492.

    Also, when we ask our larger customers (who don't need to get together
    to make bulk buys) what they will pay for a reprogrammable 16C73 as
    opposed to a EPROM 16C73, the answer just isn't the one we want to
    hear.

    Everyone out there really needs to talk to a guy in Taiwan who will
    give his mother and his left nut for a micro that costs 10 cents less.
    The real world can be a scary place!

    Rgds, Brian.                             EraseMEbbolesspammicrochip.com



______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Why not EEPROM PICs? (Was: Bulk Buy of 16C84)
Author:  Martin Nilsson <RemoveMEmnEraseMEspamEraseMESICS.SE> at Internet_Exchange
Date:    11/1/95 2:13 PM


(I hope Microchip folks listen, and correct me if I'm wrong!)  I have
heard the following reasons from Microchip reps:

1. Why not more EEPROM PICs: Microchip's EEPROM technology
requires a lot of silicon area. Other features are not worth trading
off for EEPROM.

2. Why not use more space efficient flash prom technology: Microchip
would have to license such technology from outside, which is not part
of their policy.

3. Micro chip believes few (big) customers are interested in EEPROM.
Allegedly, they use only OTP-versions for volume production. For
development, UV-EPROM are considered enough. The ability to reprogram
in-circuit is considered to be of marginal importance. (At several PIC
seminars I have visited, participants have stressed it would be useful
to be able to reprogram new versions, test programs etc., in
circuit, in particular for SMD PICs, but Microchip has not commented
on this.)

4. Actually, it has turned out that the 16C84 does sell very well, but
Microchip attributes this to the EE-programmable _data_ memory, not
_program_ memory. This interest is ascribed to students and hobbyists
(i.e. not much of a business).

I do hope that Microchip will rethink its strategy regarding
EEPROM. In particular, a 16C73 with EEPROM/Flash PROM would be close
to the ultimate microcontroller, in my opinion. Other companies, for
instance Intel, are now beginning to catch up here.

Martin Nilsson
Swedish Institute of Computer Science    E-mail: RemoveMEmnspam_OUTspamKILLspamsics.se
Box 1263, S-164 28 Kista                 Fax: +46-8-751-7230
Sweden                                   Tel: +46-8-752-1574

{Quote hidden}

1995\11\03@021334 by BBoles

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______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Why not EEPROM PICs? (Was: Bulk Buy of 16C84)
Author:  Martin Nilsson <EraseMEmnspamspamspamBeGoneSICS.SE> at Internet_Exchange
Date:    11/1/95 2:13 PM


(I hope Microchip folks listen, and correct me if I'm wrong!)  I have
heard the following reasons from Microchip reps:

1. Why not more EEPROM PICs: Microchip's EEPROM technology
requires a lot of silicon area. Other features are not worth trading
off for EEPROM.

2. Why not use more space efficient flash prom technology: Microchip
would have to license such technology from outside, which is not part
of their policy.

3. Micro chip believes few (big) customers are interested in EEPROM.
Allegedly, they use only OTP-versions for volume production. For
development, UV-EPROM are considered enough. The ability to reprogram
in-circuit is considered to be of marginal importance. (At several PIC
seminars I have visited, participants have stressed it would be useful
to be able to reprogram new versions, test programs etc., in
circuit, in particular for SMD PICs, but Microchip has not commented
on this.)

4. Actually, it has turned out that the 16C84 does sell very well, but
Microchip attributes this to the EE-programmable _data_ memory, not
_program_ memory. This interest is ascribed to students and hobbyists
(i.e. not much of a business).

I do hope that Microchip will rethink its strategy regarding
EEPROM. In particular, a 16C73 with EEPROM/Flash PROM would be close
to the ultimate microcontroller, in my opinion. Other companies, for
instance Intel, are now beginning to catch up here.

Martin Nilsson
Swedish Institute of Computer Science    E-mail: RemoveMEmnKILLspamspamsics.se
Box 1263, S-164 28 Kista                 Fax: +46-8-751-7230
Sweden                                   Tel: +46-8-752-1574

{Quote hidden}

1995\11\03@072701 by Don McKenzie

flavicon
face
>      Everyone out there really needs to talk to a guy in Taiwan who will
>      give his mother and his left nut for a micro that costs 10 cents less.
>      The real world can be a scary place!

What is the E-mail address of this guy in Taiwan, I can't get constant
prices or supplies in Australia, and MicroChip offer no alternatives for
me.

I look like chucking in with Ben and friends at this stage.

I could say more but will bite my lower lip for now!!!!!

Don...

 Low Cost DIY PCB's for PICs & COM1/LPT1 PC I/O Interface Kits    ;!
 Don McKenzie. 29 Ellesmere Cres., Tullamarine. 3043 Australia    ;@
 Tel +61 3 9338 6286 Mobile  +61 19 939 799 spamBeGonedonmckSTOPspamspamEraseMEtbsa.com.au    ;#
 Check My Promo Disk at http://rasi.lr.ttu.ee/~sis/mirror/don/    ;$
 Type: 'finger KILLspamdonmckspamBeGonespamtbsa.com.au|more'  for more information.

'Bulk Buy of 16C84?'
1995\11\03@125539 by Pic User

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face
me too probably.

'Why not EEPROM PICs? (Was: Bulk Buy of 16C84)'
1995\11\03@135917 by Timothy McDonough DIAL UP1

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> >      Everyone out there really needs to talk to a guy in Taiwan who will
> >      give his mother and his left nut for a micro that costs 10 cents less.
> >      The real world can be a scary place!
>
> What is the E-mail address of this guy in Taiwan, I can't get constant
> prices or supplies in Australia, and MicroChip offer no alternatives for
> me.

I'm not trying to single out anyone in particular but I'm curious to know
whether the people who complain so much about price, etc. sell their own
products, services, labor at bargain basement prices just because the
people who buy from them don't want to pay very much?

When you see low prices like Mot 6805J1A's for <$2 you have to remember
that they're on allocation half the time, they're more difficult to buy
in one's and tens, etc. Considering the overhead involved I doubt if any
manufacturer of mcu's would be in business on the money they make (lose?)
selling one or two pieces to an individual.

I'm not affiliated with Microchip. They're just one of the many suppliers
I deal with in an effort to earn a living for my family.

Tim McDonough

1995\11\03@151639 by Steve Chandler

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{Quote hidden}

WHAT!! Are you trying to say they are in it for the.... MONEY!?! Oooh! :)

Steve Chandler
Seiko Communications Systems, Inc.

1995\11\03@173116 by John Bean

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face
>> >      Everyone out there really needs to talk to a guy in Taiwan who will
>> >      give his mother and his left nut for a micro that costs 10 cents less.
>> >      The real world can be a scary place!
>>
>> What is the E-mail address of this guy in Taiwan, I can't get constant
>> prices or supplies in Australia, and MicroChip offer no alternatives for
>> me.
>
>I'm not trying to single out anyone in particular but I'm curious to know
>whether the people who complain so much about price, etc. sell their own
>products, services, labor at bargain basement prices just because the
>people who buy from them don't want to pay very much?
>
I worked for a company that made garage door openers radios, about 1.2
million units a year. We would let a 40k/year engineer work for three weeks
to eliminate one jumper on a single sided board. At .3 cents each it cost
many thousands of dollars to use that part.

In addition we would let work an extra two or three weeks on a layout just
to get the parts lined up so the head on the automatic insertion machine
did not have to turn. That turn takes about half a second but it works out
to several man-weeks per year of machine time in the quantities we were
doing.

I felt sorry, well sometimes, for the parts manufacturers. We used to beat
them mercilessly. I remember meeting 3 different EEPROM makers on the same
day to try to save a penny a part. Again, a penny is not much, but 1.2
million of them is something to write home about. And in this case we saved
7 of those shiny pennys on each EEPROM.

Our market was extreamly competitive. Eventually, someone was importing a
finished product for less than we could buy the parts for.

Now I am back in my own company doing custom stuff. Usually, it just
doesn't matter how much something costs. Nothing is more important than
time. I have used a MC68HC811E2 at $18.00 each to do a  485 bus keyswitch
box that interfaced a switch and two leds. It was cheaper, on 50 pcs, to
use the $900 worth of parts than it would have been to spend a week
re-writing the serial protocol for a 6805 or PIC.

And as far as allocation, it's part of life in the mass production game.
Saving some cost later is better than never saving it at all. Also, you
schedule say 50,000 pcs a month of something to keep the pipeline moving
and then take bigger sums when they are available.

John Bean

Advanced Telemetry Systems
EraseMEjrbspamEraseMEgate.net


'Polaroid 6500 Series Ranging Module Bulk Buy'
1996\04\01@174627 by Ben L Wirz
flavicon
face
I only post this here because their has been recent discussion about
Sonar, and the 6500 Board has come several times.  I am as anti-spam as
everyone else on the list.

Hello Everyone,

       It's Bulk Buy time again!  I want do a Bulk Buy of the famous
Polaroid 6500 Series Sonar Ranging Modules and perhaps the matching
Transducers.  The Polariod Board has been the subject of numerous
magazine articles and is still considered to be the "The Standard" sonar
board for hobbyist. The best part is it is reasonably priced, you probably
could not design and build a similar board yourself cheaper.

       If you are interested, please email me.  We need to get at least
enough orders for 10 boards to make it worthwhile. Include in your email
the aproximate number of boards and transducer you are interested in.  My
target price for the board is $35 each, but I haven't nailed that down yet.
Since the boards are higher priced, I probably won't buy very many extras
so you will want to get in on this one early.  More details to come
later, see my WEB page for the latest info.

Ben,

Ben Wirz                Check out My Home Page for Great Deals on Bulk Buy's
                       Nitinol Wire, LMD 18200 H Bridge and 10 Mhz PIC 16C84
@spam@blw2@spam@spamspam_OUTcec.wustl.edu      http://cec.wustl.edu/~blw2/index.html

'NEW Bulk Email Program WOW's The INTERNET!! FREE O'
1996\04\17@025918 by BEST BULK EMAIL PROGRAM

flavicon
face
                                NEW BULK EMAIL PROGRAM!

                         MADE EASY FOR "ANYONE" TO LOAD & USE!
                      Will Strip Email Addresses, Sort and Send!!
                       Call 1-800-351-8085 For More Information
                                  NOW FOR PC OR MAC!!
1ST PROGRAM:

- SEARCHES AND FINDS EMAIL ADDRESSES
- SORTS AND REMOVES DUPLICATE ADDRESSES
- PINGS EMAIL LIST TO VERIFY ACCOUNTS ARE ACTIVE THEN
  AUTOMATICALLY REMOVES NON DELIVERABLES


2ND PROGRAM :

- AUTOMATICALLY SENDS EMAIL *** YOU DO NOT HAVE TO STAY LOGGED ON.
You can send MILLIONS of email, depending of the speed of your mail server!

It is NOW EASY to down load and send massive amounts of email addresses
from NEWSGROUPS, MAILING LISTS, AOL, COMPUSERVE, PRODIGY, DELPHI, ect.

PROGRAMS WRITTEN BY A CERTIFIED UNIX SYSTEMS ADMINISTRATOR.

PROGRAM#1 will run continously 24 hours a day.
Search and Find Email addresses from the 'Net. Then the program sorts,
removes dups and pings the addresses.

PROGRAM #2 AUTOMATICALLY sends ALL your email.  There is NO LIMIT on the
capacity!  BIG BENIFIT: (You DO NOT have to stay Logged On!)
You will receive STEP BY STEP  "easy to follow" instruction on:
How to find,  search and download email addresses from ALL Newsgroups,
Mailing  Lists and ALL the Online providers. How to AUTOMATE sort email,
remove dups and ping  your email list. How to set up a shell account.  How
to load these MARVELOUS programs to send your  message to an UNLIMITED
amount of email addresses!

The entire process is so simplified, that even a beginner can IMMEDIATELY
use these programs.

The cost of both programs cost $249.00 including a clearly  written and
illustrated, easy to follow instructions.

FREE OFFER:

ORDER BEFORE THE 25TH OF APRIL AND RECEIVE 150,000 EMAIL ADDRESSES TO START
YOUR ADVERTISING CAMPAIGN.
All Free email addresses are .com, .net, .org  ...

For Ordering Information Please Call:

Enuchs. Etc.
1-800-351-8085
Call the 800# ONLY ... we do not reply by email.
We'll Be Happy to DIRECTLY Answer Any Questions!

PLEASE ALLOW 7 DAYS FOR DELIVERY ... INDICATE PC OR MAC FORMAT

P.S.

This is a SIMPLE to use UNIX SHELL/C PROGRAM.  Both programs 1 and 2 are
designed to run directly off your internet servers computer (shell
account).  This program is designed for simplicity of use for ANYONE to
use.  Once the programs are loaded on to the Shell Account, you can log off
and let the ISP's computer complete the job!  This is NOT a PPP connection
like FLOODGATE or EUDORA or FREEDOM where your computer/program is subject
to TIMEOUTS and BUGS.  There are NO TEDIOUS configuration requirements!
Simply load these powerful programs and sign off ... go play golf or take a
nap. These programs are designed to run on their own.

Make sure that you have a phone number and address for your prospects to
call or write.  After 6 to 8 hours of program 2 running, your ISP is likely
to cancel your account due to complaints.  But alas, it is to late ... your
million + email messages are happily on their way!

Best Success,
Enuchs, Etc.

1996\04\17@085715 by myke predko

flavicon
face
>                                 NEW BULK EMAIL PROGRAM!
--- cut --- cut ---
>Call the 800# ONLY ... we do not reply by email.
>We'll Be Happy to DIRECTLY Answer Any Questions!
--- cut --- cut ---

Isn't it ironic that *they* don't reply to email?

Myke
Myke

"We're Starfleet officers, weird is part of the job."

Capt. Catherine Janeway

1996\04\17@101623 by Doc Quixote

picon face
X-Nosey-little booger-aren't-you?
Reply-To: spamBeGonedpespamKILLspamumr.edu
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Length: 866

>                                  NEW BULK EMAIL PROGRAM!
>
>                           MADE EASY FOR "ANYONE" TO LOAD & USE!
>                        Will Strip Email Addresses, Sort and Send!!
>                         Call 1-800-351-8085 For More Information
>                                    NOW FOR PC OR MAC!!

<MUNCH>

What ever happened to the proposal to restrict posting to the list to
members of the list?

                               Later!
                               David
--
____________________________________________________________________
David Edwards   ||  I will not do it, in my car, I will not speak ||
U of MO, Rolla  || for UMR.  I would not, could not in a plane, I ||
.....dpespam_OUTspamumr.edu     || would not, could not on a train. I will not    ||
               || speak for UMR, I will not do it, Sam you are.  ||
               ====================================================

1996\04\17@200343 by hoss karoly

flavicon
face
it's a pity that eunuchs found our little isle of peace
i don't care to send gazillion copies of rubbish to unknown poor fellows

1996\04\19@055022 by Barnes, Ronald C.

flavicon
face
Now perhaps its time to spam THEM!

Remember a call to an 800 number costs THEM money.

Call soon, call often!

1996\04\19@104438 by Martin McCormick

flavicon
face
In message <TakeThisOuTm0uACqe-0000ndC.....spamTakeThisOuTdc.cis.okstate.edu>, "Barnes, Ronald C." writes:
>Now perhaps its time to spam THEM!
>
>Remember a call to an 800 number costs THEM money.
>
>Call soon, call often!

       But don't call from home or anywhere that can easily be identified.
Many 800 numbers use ANI or Access Number Identification which is not CallerID
which means you can't block it from appearing on the other end.  Use
payphones or PBX's so that they will have more trouble tracking you down.
As long as you don't threaten violence, they can't do much, but they might
test their fax machine on your number at 03:00 some day if they know who you
are.  You can leave them VoiceMail if you hit * during that obnoxious little
message they have.

Martin McCormick WB5AGZ  Stillwater, OK 36.7N97.4W
OSU Center for Computing and Information Services Data Communications Group


'Serial bulk erase program on '84'
1996\06\02@182705 by Martin Nilsson
picon face
Microchip Databook 95/96 (for the first time) says that the bulk erase
program command for the 16C84 can be given serially. I tried this with
several '84s in a serial programming circuit without any effect. The
other commands work fine, including programming. I use heavy bypass on
power. The most recent '84 I tried was 9601 CBW. Has anybody had a
similar problem? (Yes, I did check the code, and yes, I did give a begin
programming command after the bulk erase command :-)

-- Martin

Martin Nilsson                           http://www.sics.se/~mn/
Swedish Institute of Computer Science    E-mail: TakeThisOuTmnKILLspamspamspamsics.se
Box 1263, S-164 28 Kista                 Fax: +46-8-751-7230
Sweden                                   Tel: +46-8-752-1574

1996\06\02@224004 by Newfound Electronics

flavicon
face
>Microchip Databook 95/96 (for the first time) says that the bulk erase
>program command for the 16C84 can be given serially. I tried this with
>several '84s in a serial programming circuit without any effect. The
>other commands work fine, including programming. I use heavy bypass on
>power. The most recent '84 I tried was 9601 CBW. Has anybody had a
>similar problem? (Yes, I did check the code, and yes, I did give a begin
>programming command after the bulk erase command :-)
>
> -- Martin
>
Martin,

Everyone else has had a similar problem. The bulk erase commands DON'T WORK!

I have discussed this matter with the well known programmer designers and
the only way to perform a bulk erase is to use the CODE PROTECT BIT erase
sequence. Before doing this to a load program data command and load 3FFFh
into the device. This is not in the data specs but is required.

The only person who has a bulk erase system for the seperate '84 memories is
Ken Pergola designer of the Micro Brisc programmer. How he does it I don't
know but he also says the specified commands do not work.

Regards,

Jim Robertson
NEWFOUND ELECTRONICS


'Bulk Emailing'
1997\01\11@110532 by Opportunity
flavicon
face
To be removed - hit "reply" and type remove in subject of message.


MARKETING WITH DIRECT EMAIL / BULK EMAIL SERVICES

I operate a custom email service. From my experience, your typical
bulk email service just collects email addresses from any source they
can rely on shear volume emailing to produce the desired results - the
"shotgun" approach. I have found that by targeting emails to groups
that would likely be specifically interested in your product, the
response rate is much better than when using the "shotgun" approach
AND you don't tend to annoy as many people (which is nice for both
sides). By targeting emails, I mean that I collect the addresses
myself from on-line areas (forums, newsgroups, etc.) so that I mail to
people that are likely to be interested in my products based on their
on-line participation.

FLOODGATE is the renegade technology that helps me do this.

This is the same software that all bulk emailing services use!

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Floodgate Bulk Email Loader for
Windows Version 5.02 now Supports 17 (really more with the free form
filter) File Formats
----------------------------------------------------------------------


SEND OUT 20,000+ MARKETING LETTERS EVERY SINGLE DAY!

Or...every few days. In fact, when I send out just a few thousand
marketing letters each day, it doesn't take long before I'm completely
swamped with email inquiries and phone calls. This is very easy to do.
And each one of these bulk mailings costs me nothing. I can teach you
how to do this and provide you with the tools you'll need.

If you've got a good marketing letter, I'll show you how to open the
floodgates. You'll be deluged with inquiries, leads, and real sales,
using nothing but email alone.

Writing a good marketing letter is not easy. I often have to rewrite
my marketing letters a half dozen times before I get the results I'm
looking for. But once you have a good letter, as you probably know,
you can use the same letter over and over again, predictably and
consistently, closing sales, week after week, month after month.

It takes me about one hour to send my marketing letter to 20,000 fresh
email addresses. I can do this, thanks to a Windows program I use.
It's called Floodgate. It's a bulk email loader. If you're interested
in electronic marketing, you should know about this program.

THE PROGRAM: FLOODGATE FOR WINDOWS

The Floodgate Bulk Email Loader imports simple text files that anyone
can download from CompuServe, Prodigy, Delphi Genie, or the Internet.
These text files contain classified ads, forum messages, or data from
the member directory. Each of these files is filled with email
addresses.

Floodgate is designed to read these files and strip out the email
addresses. It then sorts the addresses, removes any duplicates, and
formats them into an output file, with 10, 20 or 30 addresses per
line. This is all done in one simple step. Just point and click.

You'll need either a Windows based Internet account or an America
On-line account to send out your marketing letters. Neither AOL nor
the Internet charges to send email. Send your letter to 1,000 people
or 10,000 people -- the cost is always the same. NOTHING!

NEW! PREPARE A MAILING OF 50,000+ IN LESS THAN A 1/2 HOUR

If you open an Internet account, you can send each letter to 2,000+
people. The new Floodgate now directly writes distribution lists. Some
people are always collecting new addresses, but if you publish a
newsletter or adsheet, you'll be using the same addresses over and
over again. That's real power! When using addresses you've previously
collected, you can press a few buttons and prepare a mailing of
50,000+ in less than a half hour.

(To get a list of all the Internet access providers in your local
calling area goto: http://thelist.com and click on your area code.)

The Floodgate Users Guide will teach you, step by step, how to
download the right files, how to strip the addresses, and finally, how
to cut and paste the formatted addresses into your marketing letter.
Or, if you have an Internet account, how to create distribution lists.
One you've done this a few times you won't even have to think. It's
that simple!

FOR THE BRAVE & DARING: PUSHING TECHNOLOGY TO ITS LIMITS

As you may know, the practice of sending unsolicited email is usually
frowned upon, and most service providers have rules against it. But,
like jay-walking, there is little enforcement. It's not illegal. If
someone tells you that it is, ask them to provide the citation (and
don't let them give you some nonsense about faxes - that's not email).
They can't do it because it's not there. Sometimes, when a lot of
people complain, I get a warning letter. And that's about it.

About 1 in 200 will write back and tell me, "take me off the list",
which I can do, thanks to Floodgates Remove List feature. Many people
reply back thanking me for sending them my informative letter. That's
always nice. Most people though, just reply and say, "send me more
info." In this way, it usually takes me two or three letters to close
a sale.

The Floodgate Users Guide will provide you with proven formats for
writing a successful marketing letter. You'll test and rewrite, test
and rewrite. Then, once you've got it, just push a few buttons, and
open the floodgates!!!

THE FLOODGATE BULK EMAIL LOADER CURRENTLY SUPPORTS 15+ FILE FORMATS

1. CompuServe Classifieds: Send your marketing letter to everyone who
is running a classified ad. I'll teach you how to download all the
classifieds from any single ad category. This is one of the most
responsive list of buyers. They check their email every day and
they're already in business.

2. America On-line Classifieds: Download 1,000 addresses in 15
minutes. These are excellent lists for business to business sales.

3. CompuServe Forums: You can join a forum and download hundreds of
forum messages in a matter of minutes.

4. America On-line Forums: Choose from dozens of forums. All good
targeted lists.

5. Prodigy Forums: Prodigy allows you to easily export any group of
forum messages. More targeted lists.

6. Internet Newsgroups: These are all targeted lists. You'll be able
to send your marketing letter to everyone who posts a message in any
newsgroup. Easily collect 1,000's of addresses per      hour.

7. America On-line Member Directory: Most member directories only
allow you to search by city and state. With AOL, you can search by
business type, hobbies, computer type, etc. This is the gem of all
member directories. Build huge targeted lists.

8. CompuServe Member Directory: This is a major resource. If you're
willing to target your mailing to a single city, you can collect about
1,000 email addresses an hour.

9. Delphi Member Directory: The Delphi member directory allows you to
search for people based on key words. These are good targeted mailing
lists. A single search can easily generate 5,000 addresses.

10. Genie Member Directory: Similar to the CompuServe member
directory, only you can download names much quicker. You can easily
pull hundreds of thousands of addresses out of each of these member
directories.

11. CompuServe File Cabinet: If you run classified ads, and save the
responses in the CIM file cabinet, you'll be able to easily reuse
these addresses. You can send your marketing letter to everyone in any
single folder. Build master lists and clean UP your hard drive.

12. Free Form: If you have a text file with email addresses that
floodgate does not support, chances are the Free Form filter will be
just what you need. Just enter a key word to search for.

13. CompuServe Form Profiles (Forum Membership Directories): Easy to
build targeted lists here. Each search can easily bring you 500+
addresses.

14. Genie Profiles: If you're building targeted lists, you'll get a
lot of addresses very quickly from Genie.

15. Plain Addresses: Read Floodgate Master Files back into Floodgate
to merge files and do selective mailings. Also useful for the
management of email address lists that you might purchase.

Floodgate also has filters to allow you to include or exclude any
groups of addresses in your final distribution lists. For example, you
could include only email addresses that ended in .com or exclude all
with .gov. You could exclude all noc, root, and other addresses that
almost guarantee a negative response. These filters are fully
configurable and can be used together.

BUILD REUSABLE MASTER FILES

Floodgate maintains Master Files for each of your marketing letters.
If you download from the same place on a regular basis, you only want
to send your letter to the new people. Floodgate will compare the new
addresses with those in the Master File, and prepare a mailing list of
only new people. The new addresses are, of course, then added to the
Master File. With each new mailing your Master File grows and grows.

You may create as many Master Lists as you need. When you start a new
marketing campaign, you'll want to send your new letter to everyone on
your Master List. If you write a newsletter, each time you send your
newsletter, you'll send it to everyone on a Master List.

THE REMOVE LIST

Very often, people will reply and tell you to take them off your
mailing list. Place these addresses in the REMOVE.MST file and they
will never receive another letter from you again. In this way, you
will be operating your business with the most professionalism
possible.

DON'T BE FOOLED

We have some new competitors that have tried to copy Floodgate. The
following list describes why Floodgate is BETTER.......

**Floodgate is a mature, bug free product. Not an initial release.
**Floodgate comes with over 100 pages of step by step documentation.
**Floodgate is the only one offering a money back guarantee.
**Floodgate has more testimonials. **Filter for filter, Floodgate
offers more capabilities, way more. **Floodgate does everything all
the others *combined* claim. **Floodgate is by far the easiest to use.
**Ther is NO *cutting and pasting* with Floodgate. **We have by far,
the best technical support.

SOME QUICK MATH

Floodgate can pay for itself in a few days. It can also cut your
advertising costs down to almost nothing. Think of what the
competition will do when they get their Floodgate program. Don't be
left in the dust - there are 75 million people out there, just a few
keystrokes away. Let's do the math:

- Email 50,000 sales letters (takes about 1-2 hours)
- Let's say your product will bring you $5 profit per sale.
- Let's also say you only get a 1% response (occasionally higher).

* That's 500 orders x $5 = $2,500 profit !! Now imagine what 500,000
letters would do for your business !!

WHAT CAN I MARKET ON-LINE?

You can market anything on-line using direct email, that can be
marketed using conventional postal direct mail marketing. The
possibilities are practically endless. If it sells off-line, you can
sell it on-line.

EASY TO INSTALL AND EASY TO LEARN

The Floodgate Email Loader requires Windows. The docs tell you where
to go, what to do, and how to do it. All you need are basic computer
skills that can be learned with a little practice or help from
computer savvy friends.

Floodgate has previously sold for as much as $2,499! The complete
package is now available for just $499.95, postpaid. If you order
within 72 hours, it can be your for only $349.95!! (Must be verified
on out autoresponder log, by received email time stamp, fax time
stamp, or voice message time stamp). These orders will also receive
lifetime technical support and FREE OVERNIGHT SHIPPING (once your
check has cleared the bank).

Some say Floodgate is expensive. Compared to direct mail, where you
pay for mailing lists, printing and postage, Floodgate is a bargain.
For the cost of one traditional mailing, you'll own a Floodgate
license and never again pay for lists, printing or postage. Those who
know direct mail will agree, "Floodgate is the best advertising value
on the Internet today!"

MONEY BACK GUARANTEE: Try the Floodgate Bulk Email Loader for 10 days.
Do a test mailing. If you're not delighted, return the package for a
full refund.

All Floodgate users receive unlimited technical and business support
for 30 days, (and if you don't take up a lot of my time, for a lot
longer.) To order the FLOODGATE Bulk Email Loader, send your check or
money order for $349.95 within 72 hours from receiving this email
letter to:

Dave Mustachi
WebAware
P.O. Box 772261
Coral Springs, FL 33077
954-341-2924

You can receive a functional demo version of Floodgate by
simply replying back to us with the word "Floodgate" in the
subject portion of your email message.

SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS

386 or larger
Windows 3.1+ with at least 4 meg ram or Windows 95 with 8 meg ram
Extra 5 MB hard drive space

Floodgate can be run on a fast Mac with 24 MB RAM and SoftWindows.

NOTES FROM FLOODGATE USERS

"It is everything you said it was. Within one week of my first
mailing, I received a record number of orders. All you need to print
money is a decent sales letter. Thanks." Randy albertson, Wolverine
Capital.

"After using Floodgate and your utility program all day today, let me
say these are as two of the finest programs I have ever bought in my
52 years! Your support has been superb. Thank You!" Vernon Hale, Prime
Data Systems

"My first day and I just used Floodgate and Pegasus to send 1,469
sales letters. So far I've got about 25 positive responses. It works
GREAT!!! Thanks." Donald Prior

"Floodgate is awesome!. I recently started a new business on-line. I
stripped the addresses of the AOL & CIS classifieds. I sent out 3,497
email letters and got over 400 people to join my company in 5 days!
Needless to say, it pays for itself." David Sheeham, OMPD

"I was able to use Floodgate to extract the names from the Internet
news groups. It works perfectly. Needless to say, I am very excited
about the use of this new technology." Mark Eberra, Inside Connections

"This is a great piece of software and an invaluable marketing tool."
Joe Kuhn, The Millennium Group

"I just thought you'd like to know that this program is fantastic.
After loading it on my system, I wanted to test it out. In my first
hour of using this, I collected 6,092 email addresses!" Richard Kahn,
LD Communications

"I just love the Floodgate program. It saves me hours and hours of
time. This is the beginning of a wonderful FUN time marketing on-line.
Thank you so much for writing this program." Beth O'Neill, Eudora, KS

"Your software is brilliant, and from the technical support I've
received, I can see you have a genuine love and respect of
people...Floodgate is a divine package. Wish I had found it sooner."
Tom Sanders, Peoria, IL

"I really like the way the Floodgate software package works. It is
very easy to use, and really does the trick. It has already saved me
an incredible amount of time and energy." John Berning, Jr.,
Fairfield, NJ

"It's going great with FLOODGATE! I like using Delphi. I just
collected 50,000+ addresses within 20 minutes on-line." Richard Kahn,
R&B Associates

----------------------------------------------------------------------
FLOODGATE ORDER FORM:

Please print out this order form and then fill in the blanks......

______Yes! I would like to try your cutting-edge software so that I
can advertise my business to thousands of people on-line whenever I
like! I understand that I have 10 days to trial the software. If I am
not fully delighted, I will cheerfully be refunded the purchase price,
no questions asked! Please rush me the FLOODGATE package now!

______I am ordering within 72 hours! That qualifies me to receive the
FLOODGATE package at a substantial discount! I am ordering the
software for only $349.95. (Save $150 off the retail price....Software
has sold for as much as $2,499.95)

______I am ordering within 72 hours! That qualifies me to receive free
lifetime technical support.

______I am ordering within 72 hours and I want FREE overnight
shipping!

YOUR NAME_________________________________________________________

COMPANY NAME_____________________________________________________

YOUR POSITION______________________________________________________

STREET ADDRESS_____________________________________________________

CITY, STATE, ZIP______________________________________________________

PHONE NUMBERS______________________________________________________

FAX NUMBERS_________________________________________________________

EMAIL ADDRESSES_____________________________________________________

We accept Checks or Money Orders by mail.

I agree to pay WebAware an additional $27 fee if my check is returned
for insufficient or uncollectable funds.

SIGNATURE: X_________________________________DATE:__________________

Please send all order forms and check or money order to:

D. Mustachi
WebAware
P.O. Box 772261
Coral Springs, FL 33077


************************************************************

OR:

PLEASE PASTE YOUR CHECK HERE

(If you fax a check, there is no need for you to send the original
check by mail. We will draft up a new check, with the exact
information from your original check that you faxed to us)

Please fax the above order form and check to: 1-954-255-3713.

1997\01\11@173206 by CCSys

picon face
Here's where to bitch:

.....postmasterspamRemoveMEbellsouth.net or call 1-800-4dotnet

1997\01\11@183253 by Breck Stapleton

flavicon
face
CCSys wrote:
>
> Here's where to bitch:
>
> RemoveMEpostmasterspamspamBeGonebellsouth.net or call 1-800-4dotnet

Good idea.

I went to Deja News, http://www.dejanews.com/
and did a search for  Dave Mustachi and found a few
other ticked off individuals.

Interesting thing to note, all but one of these news group
postings from Dave's program are fourth of five, in a thread
relating to unwanted bulk email.

Question: "If" I wanted to write a virus to seek and destroy
bulk mail programs, what language would I want to learn?


Breck Stapleton
spamBeGonebreck@spam@spamspam_OUThub.ofthe.net

'I am So Sorry. (Re: Bulk Emailing )'
1997\01\11@223513 by Martin McCormick

flavicon
face
       I apologize to the list for sending that last message.  I should
know better.  I was tired and that message made me sort of blow my stack.
I will make sure it gets to the right person.  This is especially bad because
this list has such a high traffic level.  Again, I am sorry for not being
more careful.

Martin McCormick

'Bulk Emailing - Apology'
1997\01\12@022753 by Dennis Frost

flavicon
face
Sorry people. After receiving this annoying rubbish via the PICList, I
think that I may have sent another copy of it to the list rather than to
the culprit.

I hope all 1200 other list members are also going to get on this idiot's
case as I am...

Cheers
       Dennis
____________________________________________________
FROST - Electronic Design, Manufacture & Consulting.
Dennis Frost
Tel:   +27 331 965125
Cel:   +83 2275216
Email: TakeThisOuTdennis.frostspamspampixie.co.za
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa
____________________________________________________

'Bulk Emailing - Revenge'
1997\01\12@054849 by Tim Kerby

picon face
I have a handy little program called Mail Bomber which works with Ewan
telnet.  It can send millions of totally anonymous emails to any victem -
How about getting this bulk mailing guy with it.  The code is small and I am
willing to send it out to anyone who so desires it as it is shareware.
Revenge is near!!!


Tim

1997\01\12@062007 by Clyde Smith-Stubbs

flavicon
face
Thus spake Tim Kerby (tim.kerbyEraseMEspamUKONLINE.CO.UK):

> I have a handy little program called Mail Bomber which works with Ewan
> telnet.  It can send millions of totally anonymous emails to any victem -
> How about getting this bulk mailing guy with it.  The code is small and I am
> willing to send it out to anyone who so desires it as it is shareware.

I'd recommend against it. By doing this you are placing yourself in the same
position as the guy you're mad at. The best defence is the delete key. I used
to get hot under the collar about these spammers, but it's not worth it. Relax,
ignore them, and while they mightn't go away you'll stop noticing and have more
time for useful stuff.

Cheers, Clyde

--
Clyde Smith-Stubbs    | HI-TECH Software,       | Voice: +61 7 3354 2411
RemoveMEclydeEraseMEspamspam_OUThtsoft.com      | P.O. Box 103, Alderley, | Fax:   +61 7 3354 2422
http://www.htsoft.com | QLD, 4051, AUSTRALIA.   |
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Download a FREE beta version of our new ANSI C compiler for the PIC
microcontroller! Point your WWW browser at http://www.htsoft.com/

1997\01\12@082548 by David Nicholls

flavicon
face
       Cop on and stop this rubbish !



On Sat, 11 Jan 1997, Opportunity wrote:

{Quote hidden}

1997\01\12@111123 by Doyle Whisenant

flavicon
face
David Nicholls wrote:
>
>         Cop on and stop this rubbish !
> > To be removed - hit "reply" and type remove in subject of message.
Please don't hit "Reply" because this is sent back to the list!
I have recieved 4-5 copies already. Thanks...

Doyle Whisenant
@spam@mechanicRemoveMEspamEraseMEsonet.net
members.aol.com/mrktmngr/world/wdoyle.html

1997\01\12@124541 by Mike

flavicon
face
>I have a handy little program called Mail Bomber which works with Ewan
>telnet.  It can send millions of totally anonymous emails to any victem -
>How about getting this bulk mailing guy with it.  The code is small and I am
>willing to send it out to anyone who so desires it as it is shareware.
>Revenge is near!!!
>
>
>Tim

Why make matters worse - there is the delete key !

Mike
EraseMEerazmusspam@spam@wantree.com.au

There is no a'priori reason that the ultimate truth will be interesting
or even useful, those moments of frustration during philosophical debate
would be replaced by the sheer terror which accompanies true knowledge.

'Bulk Emailing (Sorry everyone )'
1997\01\12@135139 by David Nicholls

flavicon
face
       I must apologise to everyone on the list who recieved my (SPAM) I
accidently replied to the reply-to address (i.e. the list) instead of the
original sender. I realise that message and even this one only serves to
increase the problem. But I felt I had to make some comment in case some
of you out there thought the message was an attempt to agravate the
problem. All I can say is it won't happen again.

                                       Yours apologetically,


                                                       David Nicholls.

'Bulk Emailing - Revenge'
1997\01\13@053748 by Keith Dowsett

flavicon
face
>I have a handy little program called Mail Bomber which works with Ewan
>telnet.  It can send millions of totally anonymous emails to any victem -
>How about getting this bulk mailing guy with it.  The code is small and I am
>willing to send it out to anyone who so desires it as it is shareware.
>Revenge is near!!!
>
>Tim

That's just what we're trying to avoid. It would be more fun to write some
code which automatically issues a complaint to his sys admin every day for
two weeks. That's only 14 messages and is far more likely to get a response.
Especially if you include the part of his message about only getting a slap
on the wrist !!

Keith.
==========================================================
Keith Dowsett         "Variables won't; constants aren't."

E-mail: @spam@kdowsettspam_OUTspam.....rpms.ac.uk
WWW:    http://kd.rpms.ac.uk/index.html

1997\01\13@120535 by Wireless Scientific

flavicon
face
At 10:48 AM +0000 1/12/97, Tim Kerby wrote:
>I have a handy little program called Mail Bomber which works with Ewan
>telnet.  It can send millions of totally anonymous emails to any victem -
>How about getting this bulk mailing guy with it.  The code is small and I am
>willing to send it out to anyone who so desires it as it is shareware.
>Revenge is near!!!



grow up by hitting delete message and go on.

craig

ps. you can't "get" those guys.

1997\01\13@120539 by Wireless Scientific

flavicon
face
At 1:14 PM +0000 1/12/97, David Nicholls wrote:
>        Cop on and stop this rubbish !
>
>
>
>On Sat, 11 Jan 1997, Opportunity wrote:
>
>> To be removed - hit "reply" and type remove in subject of message.
>>
>>
>> MARKETING WITH DIRECT EMAIL / BULK EMAIL SERVICES
>>
>> I operate a custom email service. From my experience, your typical

a bunch of crap DELETED.



It's funny that people who complain about junk mail also include the entire
first posting with their complaint.

craig

1997\01\25@062419 by Lifetime Opportunity

flavicon
face
To be removed - hit "reply" and type remove in subject of message.


MARKETING WITH DIRECT EMAIL / BULK EMAIL SERVICES

I operate a custom email service. From my experience, your typical
bulk email service just collects email addresses from any source they can rely
on shear
volume emailing to produce the desired results - the "shotgun" approach. I have
found that
by targeting emails to groups that would likely be specifically interested in
your product, the
response rate is much better than when using the "shotgun" approach AND you
don't tend
to annoy as many people (which is nice for both sides). By targeting emails, I
mean that I
collect the addresses myself from on-line areas (forums, newsgroups, etc.) so
that I mail to
people that are likely to be interested in my products based on their on-line
participation.

FLOODGATE is the renegade technology that helps me do this.

This is the same software that all bulk emailing services use!

------------------------------------------------------------------
Floodgate Bulk Email Loader for
Windows Version 5.02 now Supports 17 (really more with the free form filter)
File Formats
------------------------------------------------------------------


SEND OUT 20,000+ MARKETING LETTERS EVERY SINGLE DAY!

Or...every few days. In fact, when I send out just a few thousand
marketing letters each day, it doesn't take long before I'm completely swamped
with email
inquiries and phone calls. This is very easy to do. And each one of these bulk
mailings costs
me nothing. I can teach you how to do this and provide you with the tools you'll
need.

If you've got a good marketing letter, I'll show you how to open the floodgates.
You'll be
deluged with inquiries, leads, and real sales, using nothing but email alone.

Writing a good marketing letter is not easy. I often have to rewrite my
marketing letters a half
dozen times before I get the results I'm looking for. But once you have a good
letter, as you
probably know, you can use the same letter over and over again, predictably and
consistently, closing sales, week after week, month after month.

It takes me about one hour to send my marketing letter to 20,000 fresh email
addresses. I can
do this, thanks to a Windows program I use. It's called Floodgate. It's a bulk
email loader. If
you're interested in electronic marketing, you should know about this program.

THE PROGRAM: FLOODGATE FOR WINDOWS

The Floodgate Bulk Email Loader imports simple text files that anyone can
download from
CompuServe, Prodigy, Delphi Genie, or the Internet. These text files contain
classified ads,
forum messages, or data from the member directory. Each of these files is filled
with email
addresses.

Floodgate is designed to read these files and strip out the email
addresses. It then sorts the addresses, removes any duplicates, and
formats them into an output file, with 10, 20 or 30 addresses per
line. This is all done in one simple step. Just point and click.

You'll need either a Windows based Internet account or an America
On-line account to send out your marketing letters. Neither AOL nor
the Internet charges to send email. Send your letter to 1,000 people or 10,000
people -- the
cost is always the same. NOTHING!

NEW! PREPARE A MAILING OF 50,000+ IN LESS THAN A 1/2 HOUR

If you open an Internet account, you can send each letter to 2,000+
people. The new Floodgate now directly writes distribution lists. Some people
are always
collecting new addresses, but if you publish a newsletter or adsheet, you'll be
using the same
addresses over and over again. That's real power! When using addresses you've
previously
collected, you can press a few buttons and prepare a mailing of 50,000+ in less
than a half
hour.

(To get a list of all the Internet access providers in your local
calling area goto: http://thelist.com and click on your area code.)

The Floodgate Users Guide will teach you, step by step, how to
download the right files, how to strip the addresses, and finally, how to cut
and paste the
formatted addresses into your marketing letter. Or, if you have an Internet
account, how to
create distribution lists. One you've done this a few times you won't even have
to think. It's
that simple!

FOR THE BRAVE & DARING: PUSHING TECHNOLOGY TO ITS LIMITS

As you may know, the practice of sending unsolicited email is usually frowned
upon, and
most service providers have rules against it. But,like jay-walking, there is
little enforcement.
It's not illegal. If someone tells you that it is, ask them to provide the
citation (and don't let
them give you some nonsense about faxes - that's not email). They can't do it
because it's
not there. Sometimes, when a lot of people complain, I get a warning letter. And
that's about
it.

About 1 in 200 will write back and tell me, "take me off the list",
which I can do, thanks to Floodgates Remove List feature. Many people reply back
thanking
me for sending them my informative letter. That's always nice. Most people
though, just reply
and say, "send me more info." In this way, it usually takes me two or three
letters to close a
sale.

The Floodgate Users Guide will provide you with proven formats for
writing a successful marketing letter. You'll test and rewrite, test and
rewrite. Then, once
you've got it, just push a few buttons, and open the floodgates!!!

THE FLOODGATE BULK EMAIL LOADER CURRENTLY SUPPORTS 15+ FILE FORMATS

1. CompuServe Classifieds: Send your marketing letter to everyone who is running
a
classified ad. I'll teach you how to download all the classifieds from any
single ad category.
This is one of the most responsive list of buyers. They check their email every
day and they're
already in business.

2. America On-line Classifieds: Download 1,000 addresses in 15
minutes. These are excellent lists for business to business sales.

3. CompuServe Forums: You can join a forum and download hundreds of
forum messages in a matter of minutes.

4. America On-line Forums: Choose from dozens of forums. All good
targeted lists.

5. Prodigy Forums: Prodigy allows you to easily export any group of
forum messages. More targeted lists.

6. Internet Newsgroups: These are all targeted lists. You'll be able to send
your marketing
letter to everyone who posts a message in any newsgroup. Easily collect 1,000's
of
addresses per   hour.

7. America On-line Member Directory: Most member directories only
allow you to search by city and state. With AOL, you can search by
business type, hobbies, computer type, etc. This is the gem of all
member directories. Build huge targeted lists.

8. CompuServe Member Directory: This is a major resource. If you're
willing to target your mailing to a single city, you can collect about 1,000
email addresses an
hour.

9. Delphi Member Directory: The Delphi member directory allows you to search for
people
based on key words. These are good targeted mailing lists. A single search can
easily
generate 5,000 addresses.

10. Genie Member Directory: Similar to the CompuServe member
directory, only you can download names much quicker. You can easily
pull hundreds of thousands of addresses out of each of these member
directories.

11. CompuServe File Cabinet: If you run classified ads, and save the responses
in the CIM
file cabinet, you'll be able to easily reuse these addresses. You can send your
marketing letter
to everyone in any single folder. Build master lists and clean UP your hard
drive.

12. Free Form: If you have a text file with email addresses that
floodgate does not support, chances are the Free Form filter will be just what
you need. Just
enter a key word to search for.

13. CompuServe Form Profiles (Forum Membership Directories): Easy to build
targeted lists
here. Each search can easily bring you 500+
addresses.

14. Genie Profiles: If you're building targeted lists, you'll get a
lot of addresses very quickly from Genie.

15. Plain Addresses: Read Floodgate Master Files back into Floodgate to merge
files and do
selective mailings. Also useful for the management of email address lists that
you might
purchase.

Floodgate also has filters to allow you to include or exclude any
groups of addresses in your final distribution lists. For example, you could
include only email
addresses that ended in .com or exclude all with .gov. You could exclude all
noc, root, and
other addresses that almost guarantee a negative response. These filters are
fully
configurable and can be used together.

BUILD REUSABLE MASTER FILES

Floodgate maintains Master Files for each of your marketing letters. If you
download from the
same place on a regular basis, you only want to send your letter to the new
people.
Floodgate will compare the new addresses with those in the Master File, and
prepare a
mailing list of only new people. The new addresses are, of course, then added to
the Master
File. With each new mailing your Master File grows and grows.

You may create as many Master Lists as you need. When you start a new marketing
campaign, you'll want to send your new letter to everyone on your Master List.
If you write a
newsletter, each time you send your newsletter, you'll send it to everyone on a
Master List.

THE REMOVE LIST

Very often, people will reply and tell you to take them off your
mailing list. Place these addresses in the REMOVE.MST file and they
will never receive another letter from you again. In this way, you
will be operating your business with the most professionalism
possible.

DON'T BE FOOLED

We have some new competitors that have tried to copy Floodgate. The
following list describes why Floodgate is BETTER.......

**Floodgate is a mature, bug free product. Not an initial release.
**Floodgate comes with over 100 pages of step by step documentation.
**Floodgate is the only one offering a money back guarantee.
**Floodgate has more testimonials. **Filter for filter, Floodgate
offers more capabilities, way more. **Floodgate does everything all
the others *combined* claim. **Floodgate is by far the easiest to use.
**There is NO *cutting and pasting* with Floodgate. **We have by far, the best
technical
support.

SOME QUICK MATH

Floodgate can pay for itself in a few days. It can also cut your
advertising costs down to almost nothing. Think of what the
competition will do when they get their Floodgate program. Don't be
left in the dust - there are 75 million people out there, just a few keystrokes
away. Let's do the
math:

- Email 50,000 sales letters (takes about 1-2 hours)
- Let's say your product will bring you $5 profit per sale.
- Let's also say you only get a 1% response (occasionally higher).

* That's 500 orders x $5 = $2,500 profit !! Now imagine what 500,000 letters
would do for
your business !!

WHAT CAN I MARKET ON-LINE?

You can market anything on-line using direct email, that can be
marketed using conventional postal direct mail marketing. The
possibilities are practically endless. If it sells off-line, you can sell it
on-line.

EASY TO INSTALL AND EASY TO LEARN

The Floodgate Email Loader requires Windows. The docs tell you where to go, what
to do,
and how to do it. All you need are basic computer skills that can be learned
with a little
practice or help from computer savvy friends.

Floodgate has previously sold for as much as $2,499! The complete
package is now available for just $499.95, postpaid. If you order
within 72 hours, it can be your for only $349.95!! (Must be verified on out
autoresponder log,
by received email time stamp, fax time stamp, or voice message time stamp).
These orders will
also receive lifetime technical support and FREE OVERNIGHT SHIPPING (once your
check
has cleared the bank).

Some say Floodgate is expensive. Compared to direct mail, where you
pay for mailing lists, printing and postage, Floodgate is a bargain. For the
cost of one
traditional mailing, you'll own a Floodgate license and never again pay for
lists, printing or
postage. Those who know direct mail will agree, "Floodgate is the best
advertising value on
the Internet today!"

MONEY BACK GUARANTEE: Try the Floodgate Bulk Email Loader for 10 days. Do a test
mailing. If you're not delighted, return the package for a full refund.

All Floodgate users receive unlimited technical and business support for 30
days, (and if you
don't take up a lot of my time, for a lot longer.) To order the FLOODGATE Bulk
Email Loader,
send your check or money order for $349.95 within 72 hours from receiving this
email letter
to:

WebAware
P.O. Box 772261
Coral Springs, FL 33077
(954) 341-2924
spamBeGonewebawareEraseMEspamwebjetters.com

You can receive a functional demo version of Floodgate by
simply replying back to us with the word "Floodgate" in the
subject portion of your email message.

SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS

386 or larger
Windows 3.1+ with at least 4 meg ram or Windows 95 with 8 meg ram
Extra 5 MB hard drive space

Floodgate can be run on a fast Mac with 24 MB RAM and SoftWindows.

NOTES FROM FLOODGATE USERS

"It is everything you said it was. Within one week of my first
mailing, I received a record number of orders. All you need to print money is a
decent sales
letter. Thanks." Randy albertson, Wolverine Capital.

"After using Floodgate and your utility program all day today, let me say these
are as two of
the finest programs I have ever bought in my 52 years! Your support has been
superb. Thank
You!" Vernon Hale, Prime Data Systems

"My first day and I just used Floodgate and Pegasus to send 1,469
sales letters. So far I've got about 25 positive responses. It works GREAT!!!
Thanks." Donald
Prior

"Floodgate is awesome!. I recently started a new business on-line. I stripped
the addresses of
the AOL & CIS classifieds. I sent out 3,497 email letters and got over 400
people to join my
company in 5 days! Needless to say, it pays for itself." David Sheeham, OMPD

"I was able to use Floodgate to extract the names from the Internet
news groups. It works perfectly. Needless to say, I am very excited
about the use of this new technology." Mark Eberra, Inside Connections

"This is a great piece of software and an invaluable marketing tool."
Joe Kuhn, The Millennium Group

"I just thought you'd like to know that this program is fantastic.
After loading it on my system, I wanted to test it out. In my first
hour of using this, I collected 6,092 email addresses!" Richard Kahn, LD
Communications

"I just love the Floodgate program. It saves me hours and hours of
time. This is the beginning of a wonderful FUN time marketing on-line. Thank you
so much for
writing this program." Beth O'Neill, Eudora, KS

"Your software is brilliant, and from the technical support I've
received, I can see you have a genuine love and respect of
people...Floodgate is a divine package. Wish I had found it sooner."
Tom Sanders, Peoria, IL

"I really like the way the Floodgate software package works. It is
very easy to use, and really does the trick. It has already saved me an
incredible amount of
time and energy." John Berning, Jr.,
Fairfield, NJ

"It's going great with FLOODGATE! I like using Delphi. I just
collected 50,000+ addresses within 20 minutes on-line." Richard Kahn, R&B
Associates

------------------------------------------------------------------
FLOODGATE ORDER FORM:

Please print out this order form and then fill in the blanks......

______Yes! I would like to try your cutting-edge software so that I
can advertise my business to thousands of people on-line whenever I
like! I understand that I have 10 days to trial the software. If I am not fully
delighted, I will
cheerfully be refunded the purchase price, no questions asked! Please rush me
the
FLOODGATE package now!

______I am ordering within 72 hours! That qualifies me to receive the FLOODGATE
package
at a substantial discount! I am ordering the
software for only $349.95. (Save $150 off the retail price....Software has sold
for as much as
$2,499.95)

______I am ordering within 72 hours! That qualifies me to receive free lifetime
technical
support.

______I am ordering within 72 hours and I want FREE overnight shipping!

YOUR NAME_________________________________________________________

COMPANY NAME_____________________________________________________

YOUR POSITION______________________________________________________

STREET ADDRESS_____________________________________________________

CITY, STATE, ZIP______________________________________________________

PHONE NUMBERS______________________________________________________

FAX NUMBERS_________________________________________________________

EMAIL ADDRESSES_____________________________________________________

We accept Checks or Money Orders by mail.

I agree to pay WebAware an additional $27 fee if my check is returned for
insufficient or
uncollectable funds.

SIGNATURE: X_________________________________DATE:__________________

Please send all order forms and check or money order to:

Dave Mustachi
WebAware
P.O. Box 772261
Coral Springs, FL 33077
(954) 341-2924

************************************************************

OR:

PLEASE PASTE YOUR CHECK HERE

(If you fax a check, there is no need for you to send the original
check by mail. We will draft up a new check, with the exact
information from your original check that you faxed to us)

Please fax the above order form and check to: 1-954-255-3713.

1997\01\25@062419 by Lifetime Opportunity

flavicon
face
To be removed - hit "reply" and type remove in subject of message.


MARKETING WITH DIRECT EMAIL / BULK EMAIL SERVICES

I operate a custom email service. From my experience, your typical
bulk email service just collects email addresses from any source they can rely
on shear
volume emailing to produce the desired results - the "shotgun" approach. I have
found that
by targeting emails to groups that would likely be specifically interested in
your product, the
response rate is much better than when using the "shotgun" approach AND you
don't tend
to annoy as many people (which is nice for both sides). By targeting emails, I
mean that I
collect the addresses myself from on-line areas (forums, newsgroups, etc.) so
that I mail to
people that are likely to be interested in my products based on their on-line
participation.

FLOODGATE is the renegade technology that helps me do this.

This is the same software that all bulk emailing services use!

------------------------------------------------------------------
Floodgate Bulk Email Loader for
Windows Version 5.02 now Supports 17 (really more with the free form filter)
File Formats
------------------------------------------------------------------


SEND OUT 20,000+ MARKETING LETTERS EVERY SINGLE DAY!

Or...every few days. In fact, when I send out just a few thousand
marketing letters each day, it doesn't take long before I'm completely swamped
with email
inquiries and phone calls. This is very easy to do. And each one of these bulk
mailings costs
me nothing. I can teach you how to do this and provide you with the tools you'll
need.

If you've got a good marketing letter, I'll show you how to open the floodgates.
You'll be
deluged with inquiries, leads, and real sales, using nothing but email alone.

Writing a good marketing letter is not easy. I often have to rewrite my
marketing letters a half
dozen times before I get the results I'm looking for. But once you have a good
letter, as you
probably know, you can use the same letter over and over again, predictably and
consistently, closing sales, week after week, month after month.

It takes me about one hour to send my marketing letter to 20,000 fresh email
addresses. I can
do this, thanks to a Windows program I use. It's called Floodgate. It's a bulk
email loader. If
you're interested in electronic marketing, you should know about this program.

THE PROGRAM: FLOODGATE FOR WINDOWS

The Floodgate Bulk Email Loader imports simple text files that anyone can
download from
CompuServe, Prodigy, Delphi Genie, or the Internet. These text files contain
classified ads,
forum messages, or data from the member directory. Each of these files is filled
with email
addresses.

Floodgate is designed to read these files and strip out the email
addresses. It then sorts the addresses, removes any duplicates, and
formats them into an output file, with 10, 20 or 30 addresses per
line. This is all done in one simple step. Just point and click.

You'll need either a Windows based Internet account or an America
On-line account to send out your marketing letters. Neither AOL nor
the Internet charges to send email. Send your letter to 1,000 people or 10,000
people -- the
cost is always the same. NOTHING!

NEW! PREPARE A MAILING OF 50,000+ IN LESS THAN A 1/2 HOUR

If you open an Internet account, you can send each letter to 2,000+
people. The new Floodgate now directly writes distribution lists. Some people
are always
collecting new addresses, but if you publish a newsletter or adsheet, you'll be
using the same
addresses over and over again. That's real power! When using addresses you've
previously
collected, you can press a few buttons and prepare a mailing of 50,000+ in less
than a half
hour.

(To get a list of all the Internet access providers in your local
calling area goto: http://thelist.com and click on your area code.)

The Floodgate Users Guide will teach you, step by step, how to
download the right files, how to strip the addresses, and finally, how to cut
and paste the
formatted addresses into your marketing letter. Or, if you have an Internet
account, how to
create distribution lists. One you've done this a few times you won't even have
to think. It's
that simple!

FOR THE BRAVE & DARING: PUSHING TECHNOLOGY TO ITS LIMITS

As you may know, the practice of sending unsolicited email is usually frowned
upon, and
most service providers have rules against it. But,like jay-walking, there is
little enforcement.
It's not illegal. If someone tells you that it is, ask them to provide the
citation (and don't let
them give you some nonsense about faxes - that's not email). They can't do it
because it's
not there. Sometimes, when a lot of people complain, I get a warning letter. And
that's about
it.

About 1 in 200 will write back and tell me, "take me off the list",
which I can do, thanks to Floodgates Remove List feature. Many people reply back
thanking
me for sending them my informative letter. That's always nice. Most people
though, just reply
and say, "send me more info." In this way, it usually takes me two or three
letters to close a
sale.

The Floodgate Users Guide will provide you with proven formats for
writing a successful marketing letter. You'll test and rewrite, test and
rewrite. Then, once
you've got it, just push a few buttons, and open the floodgates!!!

THE FLOODGATE BULK EMAIL LOADER CURRENTLY SUPPORTS 15+ FILE FORMATS

1. CompuServe Classifieds: Send your marketing letter to everyone who is running
a
classified ad. I'll teach you how to download all the classifieds from any
single ad category.
This is one of the most responsive list of buyers. They check their email every
day and they're
already in business.

2. America On-line Classifieds: Download 1,000 addresses in 15
minutes. These are excellent lists for business to business sales.

3. CompuServe Forums: You can join a forum and download hundreds of
forum messages in a matter of minutes.

4. America On-line Forums: Choose from dozens of forums. All good
targeted lists.

5. Prodigy Forums: Prodigy allows you to easily export any group of
forum messages. More targeted lists.

6. Internet Newsgroups: These are all targeted lists. You'll be able to send
your marketing
letter to everyone who posts a message in any newsgroup. Easily collect 1,000's
of
addresses per   hour.

7. America On-line Member Directory: Most member directories only
allow you to search by city and state. With AOL, you can search by
business type, hobbies, computer type, etc. This is the gem of all
member directories. Build huge targeted lists.

8. CompuServe Member Directory: This is a major resource. If you're
willing to target your mailing to a single city, you can collect about 1,000
email addresses an
hour.

9. Delphi Member Directory: The Delphi member directory allows you to search for
people
based on key words. These are good targeted mailing lists. A single search can
easily
generate 5,000 addresses.

10. Genie Member Directory: Similar to the CompuServe member
directory, only you can download names much quicker. You can easily
pull hundreds of thousands of addresses out of each of these member
directories.

11. CompuServe File Cabinet: If you run classified ads, and save the responses
in the CIM
file cabinet, you'll be able to easily reuse these addresses. You can send your
marketing letter
to everyone in any single folder. Build master lists and clean UP your hard
drive.

12. Free Form: If you have a text file with email addresses that
floodgate does not support, chances are the Free Form filter will be just what
you need. Just
enter a key word to search for.

13. CompuServe Form Profiles (Forum Membership Directories): Easy to build
targeted lists
here. Each search can easily bring you 500+
addresses.

14. Genie Profiles: If you're building targeted lists, you'll get a
lot of addresses very quickly from Genie.

15. Plain Addresses: Read Floodgate Master Files back into Floodgate to merge
files and do
selective mailings. Also useful for the management of email address lists that
you might
purchase.

Floodgate also has filters to allow you to include or exclude any
groups of addresses in your final distribution lists. For example, you could
include only email
addresses that ended in .com or exclude all with .gov. You could exclude all
noc, root, and
other addresses that almost guarantee a negative response. These filters are
fully
configurable and can be used together.

BUILD REUSABLE MASTER FILES

Floodgate maintains Master Files for each of your marketing letters. If you
download from the
same place on a regular basis, you only want to send your letter to the new
people.
Floodgate will compare the new addresses with those in the Master File, and
prepare a
mailing list of only new people. The new addresses are, of course, then added to
the Master
File. With each new mailing your Master File grows and grows.

You may create as many Master Lists as you need. When you start a new marketing
campaign, you'll want to send your new letter to everyone on your Master List.
If you write a
newsletter, each time you send your newsletter, you'll send it to everyone on a
Master List.

THE REMOVE LIST

Very often, people will reply and tell you to take them off your
mailing list. Place these addresses in the REMOVE.MST file and they
will never receive another letter from you again. In this way, you
will be operating your business with the most professionalism
possible.

DON'T BE FOOLED

We have some new competitors that have tried to copy Floodgate. The
following list describes why Floodgate is BETTER.......

**Floodgate is a mature, bug free product. Not an initial release.
**Floodgate comes with over 100 pages of step by step documentation.
**Floodgate is the only one offering a money back guarantee.
**Floodgate has more testimonials. **Filter for filter, Floodgate
offers more capabilities, way more. **Floodgate does everything all
the others *combined* claim. **Floodgate is by far the easiest to use.
**There is NO *cutting and pasting* with Floodgate. **We have by far, the best
technical
support.

SOME QUICK MATH

Floodgate can pay for itself in a few days. It can also cut your
advertising costs down to almost nothing. Think of what the
competition will do when they get their Floodgate program. Don't be
left in the dust - there are 75 million people out there, just a few keystrokes
away. Let's do the
math:

- Email 50,000 sales letters (takes about 1-2 hours)
- Let's say your product will bring you $5 profit per sale.
- Let's also say you only get a 1% response (occasionally higher).

* That's 500 orders x $5 = $2,500 profit !! Now imagine what 500,000 letters
would do for
your business !!

WHAT CAN I MARKET ON-LINE?

You can market anything on-line using direct email, that can be
marketed using conventional postal direct mail marketing. The
possibilities are practically endless. If it sells off-line, you can sell it
on-line.

EASY TO INSTALL AND EASY TO LEARN

The Floodgate Email Loader requires Windows. The docs tell you where to go, what
to do,
and how to do it. All you need are basic computer skills that can be learned
with a little
practice or help from computer savvy friends.

Floodgate has previously sold for as much as $2,499! The complete
package is now available for just $499.95, postpaid. If you order
within 72 hours, it can be your for only $349.95!! (Must be verified on out
autoresponder log,
by received email time stamp, fax time stamp, or voice message time stamp).
These orders will
also receive lifetime technical support and FREE OVERNIGHT SHIPPING (once your
check
has cleared the bank).

Some say Floodgate is expensive. Compared to direct mail, where you
pay for mailing lists, printing and postage, Floodgate is a bargain. For the
cost of one
traditional mailing, you'll own a Floodgate license and never again pay for
lists, printing or
postage. Those who know direct mail will agree, "Floodgate is the best
advertising value on
the Internet today!"

MONEY BACK GUARANTEE: Try the Floodgate Bulk Email Loader for 10 days. Do a test
mailing. If you're not delighted, return the package for a full refund.

All Floodgate users receive unlimited technical and business support for 30
days, (and if you
don't take up a lot of my time, for a lot longer.) To order the FLOODGATE Bulk
Email Loader,
send your check or money order for $349.95 within 72 hours from receiving this
email letter
to:

WebAware
P.O. Box 772261
Coral Springs, FL 33077
(954) 341-2924
webawarespamBeGonespamwebjetters.com

You can receive a functional demo version of Floodgate by
simply replying back to us with the word "Floodgate" in the
subject portion of your email message.

SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS

386 or larger
Windows 3.1+ with at least 4 meg ram or Windows 95 with 8 meg ram
Extra 5 MB hard drive space

Floodgate can be run on a fast Mac with 24 MB RAM and SoftWindows.

NOTES FROM FLOODGATE USERS

"It is everything you said it was. Within one week of my first
mailing, I received a record number of orders. All you need to print money is a
decent sales
letter. Thanks." Randy albertson, Wolverine Capital.

"After using Floodgate and your utility program all day today, let me say these
are as two of
the finest programs I have ever bought in my 52 years! Your support has been
superb. Thank
You!" Vernon Hale, Prime Data Systems

"My first day and I just used Floodgate and Pegasus to send 1,469
sales letters. So far I've got about 25 positive responses. It works GREAT!!!
Thanks." Donald
Prior

"Floodgate is awesome!. I recently started a new business on-line. I stripped
the addresses of
the AOL & CIS classifieds. I sent out 3,497 email letters and got over 400
people to join my
company in 5 days! Needless to say, it pays for itself." David Sheeham, OMPD

"I was able to use Floodgate to extract the names from the Internet
news groups. It works perfectly. Needless to say, I am very excited
about the use of this new technology." Mark Eberra, Inside Connections

"This is a great piece of software and an invaluable marketing tool."
Joe Kuhn, The Millennium Group

"I just thought you'd like to know that this program is fantastic.
After loading it on my system, I wanted to test it out. In my first
hour of using this, I collected 6,092 email addresses!" Richard Kahn, LD
Communications

"I just love the Floodgate program. It saves me hours and hours of
time. This is the beginning of a wonderful FUN time marketing on-line. Thank you
so much for
writing this program." Beth O'Neill, Eudora, KS

"Your software is brilliant, and from the technical support I've
received, I can see you have a genuine love and respect of
people...Floodgate is a divine package. Wish I had found it sooner."
Tom Sanders, Peoria, IL

"I really like the way the Floodgate software package works. It is
very easy to use, and really does the trick. It has already saved me an
incredible amount of
time and energy." John Berning, Jr.,
Fairfield, NJ

"It's going great with FLOODGATE! I like using Delphi. I just
collected 50,000+ addresses within 20 minutes on-line." Richard Kahn, R&B
Associates

------------------------------------------------------------------
FLOODGATE ORDER FORM:

Please print out this order form and then fill in the blanks......

______Yes! I would like to try your cutting-edge software so that I
can advertise my business to thousands of people on-line whenever I
like! I understand that I have 10 days to trial the software. If I am not fully
delighted, I will
cheerfully be refunded the purchase price, no questions asked! Please rush me
the
FLOODGATE package now!

______I am ordering within 72 hours! That qualifies me to receive the FLOODGATE
package
at a substantial discount! I am ordering the
software for only $349.95. (Save $150 off the retail price....Software has sold
for as much as
$2,499.95)

______I am ordering within 72 hours! That qualifies me to receive free lifetime
technical
support.

______I am ordering within 72 hours and I want FREE overnight shipping!

YOUR NAME_________________________________________________________

COMPANY NAME_____________________________________________________

YOUR POSITION______________________________________________________

STREET ADDRESS_____________________________________________________

CITY, STATE, ZIP______________________________________________________

PHONE NUMBERS______________________________________________________

FAX NUMBERS_________________________________________________________

EMAIL ADDRESSES_____________________________________________________

We accept Checks or Money Orders by mail.

I agree to pay WebAware an additional $27 fee if my check is returned for
insufficient or
uncollectable funds.

SIGNATURE: X_________________________________DATE:__________________

Please send all order forms and check or money order to:

Dave Mustachi
WebAware
P.O. Box 772261
Coral Springs, FL 33077
(954) 341-2924

************************************************************

OR:

PLEASE PASTE YOUR CHECK HERE

(If you fax a check, there is no need for you to send the original
check by mail. We will draft up a new check, with the exact
information from your original check that you faxed to us)

Please fax the above order form and check to: 1-954-255-3713.

1997\01\25@101357 by ermott

flavicon
face
remove

1997\01\25@101357 by ermott

flavicon
face
remove

1997\01\25@122433 by bruce

flavicon
face
In-Reply-To: <RemoveME199701250828.AAA20691@spam@spamspamBeGonedfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com>> remove

1997\01\25@122433 by bruce

flavicon
face
In-Reply-To: <.....199701250828.AAA20691@spam@spamEraseMEdfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com>> remove

'No more bulk mailing - please'
1997\01\25@154248 by Tim Kerby

picon face
Over the last month we have had a load of bulk mailing from the xmas lights
software to make money quick offers.  If anyone intends to bulk mail the
list then don't.  It's not worth it anyway - we all delete it!

Tim


------------------------------------------------------------------
If you can read this, it is the end of the message!
My web pages are at http://web.ukonline.co.uk/members/tim.kerby/
My PIC site is at web.ukonline.co.uk/members/tim.kerby/pic/
It needs your projects!
------------------------------------------------------------------

1997\01\25@154248 by Tim Kerby

picon face
Over the last month we have had a load of bulk mailing from the xmas lights
software to make money quick offers.  If anyone intends to bulk mail the
list then don't.  It's not worth it anyway - we all delete it!

Tim


------------------------------------------------------------------
If you can read this, it is the end of the message!
My web pages are at http://web.ukonline.co.uk/members/tim.kerby/
My PIC site is at web.ukonline.co.uk/members/tim.kerby/pic/
It needs your projects!
------------------------------------------------------------------

'Bulk Emailing'
1997\01\25@191131 by hoss karoly

flavicon
face
Lifetime Opportunity wrote:
>
>
> SEND OUT 20,000+ MARKETING LETTERS EVERY SINGLE DAY!
>
> WebAware
> P.O. Box 772261
> Coral Springs, FL 33077
> (954) 341-2924
> .....webawareRemoveMEspamwebjetters.com
>
> "I was able to use Floodgate to extract the names from the Internet
> news groups. It works perfectly.
>
> After loading it on my system, I wanted to test it out. In my first
> hour of using this, I collected 6,092 email addresses!"
>
> I can see you have a genuine love and respect of
> people...
>

am I the only one who hates this kind of spam ?
and I'm not sure "remove" will work

> To be removed - hit "reply" and type remove in subject of message.
>
> I operate a custom email service. From my experience, your typical
> bulk email service just collects email addresses from any source

it'll send them your e-mail address which isn't in their inventory yet
we received this mail through the list but you'll send them your e-mail
...

bye
charley

1997\01\25@202515 by J.P.D. Kooij

flavicon
face
To all you folks who have just got to work on monday morning, were
annoyed by the spammer and had to sigh your way to the replies to the
spam: please forgive me that I also am elaborating on it. Below is a
suggestion that might give some relief to the spam.

On Sat, 25 Jan 1997, hoss karoly wrote:

> Lifetime Opportunity wrote:
> >
> > SEND OUT 20,000+ MARKETING LETTERS EVERY SINGLE DAY!
> >
> > I can see you have a genuine love and respect of
> > people...
> >

Way to go Hoss! You at least noticed some irony in the thing, made me
smile (gee, did you actually *read* the spam?!)

{Quote hidden}

Exactly and replying "remove" to the piclist doesn't help anybody anyway.
So watch out before you slam that reply-button, people. Count to 10 or
so. Do it again in venusian :-) Shout at the wife. Kick the dog. Only
_then_ reply spams to the list.

O.K.; here's the serious stuff:

I am subscribed to another mailinglist, the debian-user list (about the
Debian Linux system, http://www.debian.org) and it has quite an effective anti
spam mechanism. Upon subscription, you are replied an agreement form,
which states that sending commercial messages is o.k. but costs $1000...
You can't post to the list unless you reply the agreement. Maybe this,
when adopted to the piclist, would be something for the piclist-fund :-)
So far, I haven't seen any spammers buying "spamspace" on debian-user
however.

There's some more related to that list that I'd like to mention on this
list: the list-software adds a line to all reflected messages, saying:
"If you want to unsubscribe from this list write UNSUBSCRIBE to: blablah."

By the way, the debian-user list most of the time has much more traffic
than the piclist. So nobody wil hear _me_ complain about traffic density
on the piclist. Moreover, debian-user is actually gated to a newsgroup and
when I post to the list, I "mysteriously" receive spam...

Joost

P.S.: If you really _must_ get back at the spammers (because otherwise
you'd have _real_ work to :-) , read the alt.slack FAQ

1997\01\26@113008 by ermott

flavicon
face
Thanks Charley for the info. on this annoying bulk mailing.  I am
new to subscribing to a mailing list and did not think about this
being a ploy to obtain an e-mail address not in their inventory.

1997\01\27@120951 by John Halleck

flavicon
face
On Sat, 25 Jan 1997, hoss karoly wrote:

> am I the only one who hates this kind of spam ?

 Nope.

> and I'm not sure "remove" will work

 I've tried four times with this crew...

> > To be removed - hit "reply" and type remove in subject of message.

 Doesn't work if they've sent to a mailing list, it goes to the
 list instead.  (As I've pointed out every time I've sent mail
 direct to them.)


 Clearly they have no interest in handling removes.

1997\01\30@055750 by Lifetime Opportunity

flavicon
face
To be removed - hit "reply" and type remove in subject of message.


MARKETING WITH DIRECT EMAIL / BULK EMAIL SERVICES

I operate a custom email service. From my experience, your typical
bulk email service just collects email addresses from any source they can rely
on shear
volume emailing to produce the desired results - the "shotgun" approach. I have
found that
by targeting emails to groups that would likely be specifically interested in
your product, the
response rate is much better than when using the "shotgun" approach AND you
don't tend
to annoy as many people (which is nice for both sides). By targeting emails, I
mean that I
collect the addresses myself from on-line areas (forums, newsgroups, etc.) so
that I mail to
people that are likely to be interested in my products based on their on-line
participation.

FLOODGATE is the renegade technology that helps me do this.

This is the same software that all bulk emailing services use!

------------------------------------------------------------------
Floodgate Bulk Email Loader for
Windows Version 5.02 now Supports 17 (really more with the free form filter)
File Formats
------------------------------------------------------------------


SEND OUT 20,000+ MARKETING LETTERS EVERY SINGLE DAY!

Or...every few days. In fact, when I send out just a few thousand
marketing letters each day, it doesn't take long before I'm completely swamped
with email
inquiries and phone calls. This is very easy to do. And each one of these bulk
mailings costs
me nothing. I can teach you how to do this and provide you with the tools you'll
need.

If you've got a good marketing letter, I'll show you how to open the floodgates.
You'll be
deluged with inquiries, leads, and real sales, using nothing but email alone.

Writing a good marketing letter is not easy. I often have to rewrite my
marketing letters a half
dozen times before I get the results I'm looking for. But once you have a good
letter, as you
probably know, you can use the same letter over and over again, predictably and
consistently, closing sales, week after week, month after month.

It takes me about one hour to send my marketing letter to 20,000 fresh email
addresses. I can
do this, thanks to a Windows program I use. It's called Floodgate. It's a bulk
email loader. If
you're interested in electronic marketing, you should know about this program.

THE PROGRAM: FLOODGATE FOR WINDOWS

The Floodgate Bulk Email Loader imports simple text files that anyone can
download from
CompuServe, Prodigy, Delphi Genie, or the Internet. These text files contain
classified ads,
forum messages, or data from the member directory. Each of these files is filled
with email
addresses.

Floodgate is designed to read these files and strip out the email
addresses. It then sorts the addresses, removes any duplicates, and
formats them into an output file, with 10, 20 or 30 addresses per
line. This is all done in one simple step. Just point and click.

You'll need either a Windows based Internet account or an America
On-line account to send out your marketing letters. Neither AOL nor
the Internet charges to send email. Send your letter to 1,000 people or 10,000
people -- the
cost is always the same. NOTHING!

NEW! PREPARE A MAILING OF 50,000+ IN LESS THAN A 1/2 HOUR

If you open an Internet account, you can send each letter to 2,000+
people. The new Floodgate now directly writes distribution lists. Some people
are always
collecting new addresses, but if you publish a newsletter or adsheet, you'll be
using the same
addresses over and over again. That's real power! When using addresses you've
previously
collected, you can press a few buttons and prepare a mailing of 50,000+ in less
than a half
hour.

(To get a list of all the Internet access providers in your local
calling area goto: http://thelist.com and click on your area code.)

The Floodgate Users Guide will teach you, step by step, how to
download the right files, how to strip the addresses, and finally, how to cut
and paste the
formatted addresses into your marketing letter. Or, if you have an Internet
account, how to
create distribution lists. One you've done this a few times you won't even have
to think. It's
that simple!

FOR THE BRAVE & DARING: PUSHING TECHNOLOGY TO ITS LIMITS

As you may know, the practice of sending unsolicited email is usually frowned
upon, and
most service providers have rules against it. But,like jay-walking, there is
little enforcement.
It's not illegal. If someone tells you that it is, ask them to provide the
citation (and don't let
them give you some nonsense about faxes - that's not email). They can't do it
because it's
not there. Sometimes, when a lot of people complain, I get a warning letter. And
that's about
it.

About 1 in 200 will write back and tell me, "take me off the list",
which I can do, thanks to Floodgates Remove List feature. Many people reply back
thanking
me for sending them my informative letter. That's always nice. Most people
though, just reply
and say, "send me more info." In this way, it usually takes me two or three
letters to close a
sale.

The Floodgate Users Guide will provide you with proven formats for
writing a successful marketing letter. You'll test and rewrite, test and
rewrite. Then, once
you've got it, just push a few buttons, and open the floodgates!!!

THE FLOODGATE BULK EMAIL LOADER CURRENTLY SUPPORTS 15+ FILE FORMATS

1. CompuServe Classifieds: Send your marketing letter to everyone who is running
a
classified ad. I'll teach you how to download all the classifieds from any
single ad category.
This is one of the most responsive list of buyers. They check their email every
day and they're
already in business.

2. America On-line Classifieds: Download 1,000 addresses in 15
minutes. These are excellent lists for business to business sales.

3. CompuServe Forums: You can join a forum and download hundreds of
forum messages in a matter of minutes.

4. America On-line Forums: Choose from dozens of forums. All good
targeted lists.

5. Prodigy Forums: Prodigy allows you to easily export any group of
forum messages. More targeted lists.

6. Internet Newsgroups: These are all targeted lists. You'll be able to send
your marketing
letter to everyone who posts a message in any newsgroup. Easily collect 1,000's
of
addresses per   hour.

7. America On-line Member Directory: Most member directories only
allow you to search by city and state. With AOL, you can search by
business type, hobbies, computer type, etc. This is the gem of all
member directories. Build huge targeted lists.

8. CompuServe Member Directory: This is a major resource. If you're
willing to target your mailing to a single city, you can collect about 1,000
email addresses an
hour.

9. Delphi Member Directory: The Delphi member directory allows you to search for
people
based on key words. These are good targeted mailing lists. A single search can
easily
generate 5,000 addresses.

10. Genie Member Directory: Similar to the CompuServe member
directory, only you can download names much quicker. You can easily
pull hundreds of thousands of addresses out of each of these member
directories.

11. CompuServe File Cabinet: If you run classified ads, and save the responses
in the CIM
file cabinet, you'll be able to easily reuse these addresses. You can send your
marketing letter
to everyone in any single folder. Build master lists and clean UP your hard
drive.

12. Free Form: If you have a text file with email addresses that
floodgate does not support, chances are the Free Form filter will be just what
you need. Just
enter a key word to search for.

13. CompuServe Form Profiles (Forum Membership Directories): Easy to build
targeted lists
here. Each search can easily bring you 500+
addresses.

14. Genie Profiles: If you're building targeted lists, you'll get a
lot of addresses very quickly from Genie.

15. Plain Addresses: Read Floodgate Master Files back into Floodgate to merge
files and do
selective mailings. Also useful for the management of email address lists that
you might
purchase.

Floodgate also has filters to allow you to include or exclude any
groups of addresses in your final distribution lists. For example, you could
include only email
addresses that ended in .com or exclude all with .gov. You could exclude all
noc, root, and
other addresses that almost guarantee a negative response. These filters are
fully
configurable and can be used together.

BUILD REUSABLE MASTER FILES

Floodgate maintains Master Files for each of your marketing letters. If you
download from the
same place on a regular basis, you only want to send your letter to the new
people.
Floodgate will compare the new addresses with those in the Master File, and
prepare a
mailing list of only new people. The new addresses are, of course, then added to
the Master
File. With each new mailing your Master File grows and grows.

You may create as many Master Lists as you need. When you start a new marketing
campaign, you'll want to send your new letter to everyone on your Master List.
If you write a
newsletter, each time you send your newsletter, you'll send it to everyone on a
Master List.

THE REMOVE LIST

Very often, people will reply and tell you to take them off your
mailing list. Place these addresses in the REMOVE.MST file and they
will never receive another letter from you again. In this way, you
will be operating your business with the most professionalism
possible.

DON'T BE FOOLED

We have some new competitors that have tried to copy Floodgate. The
following list describes why Floodgate is BETTER.......

**Floodgate is a mature, bug free product. Not an initial release.
**Floodgate comes with over 100 pages of step by step documentation.
**Floodgate is the only one offering a money back guarantee.
**Floodgate has more testimonials. **Filter for filter, Floodgate
offers more capabilities, way more. **Floodgate does everything all
the others *combined* claim. **Floodgate is by far the easiest to use.
**There is NO *cutting and pasting* with Floodgate. **We have by far, the best
technical
support.

SOME QUICK MATH

Floodgate can pay for itself in a few days. It can also cut your
advertising costs down to almost nothing. Think of what the
competition will do when they get their Floodgate program. Don't be
left in the dust - there are 75 million people out there, just a few keystrokes
away. Let's do the
math:

- Email 50,000 sales letters (takes about 1-2 hours)
- Let's say your product will bring you $5 profit per sale.
- Let's also say you only get a 1% response (occasionally higher).

* That's 500 orders x $5 = $2,500 profit !! Now imagine what 500,000 letters
would do for
your business !!

WHAT CAN I MARKET ON-LINE?

You can market anything on-line using direct email, that can be
marketed using conventional postal direct mail marketing. The
possibilities are practically endless. If it sells off-line, you can sell it
on-line.

EASY TO INSTALL AND EASY TO LEARN

The Floodgate Email Loader requires Windows. The docs tell you where to go, what
to do,
and how to do it. All you need are basic computer skills that can be learned
with a little
practice or help from computer savvy friends.

Floodgate has previously sold for as much as $2,499! The complete
package is now available for just $499.95, postpaid. If you order
within 72 hours, it can be your for only $349.95!! (Must be verified on out
autoresponder log,
by received email time stamp, fax time stamp, or voice message time stamp).
These orders will
also receive lifetime technical support and FREE OVERNIGHT SHIPPING (once your
check
has cleared the bank).

Some say Floodgate is expensive. Compared to direct mail, where you
pay for mailing lists, printing and postage, Floodgate is a bargain. For the
cost of one
traditional mailing, you'll own a Floodgate license and never again pay for
lists, printing or
postage. Those who know direct mail will agree, "Floodgate is the best
advertising value on
the Internet today!"

MONEY BACK GUARANTEE: Try the Floodgate Bulk Email Loader for 10 days. Do a test
mailing. If you're not delighted, return the package for a full refund.

All Floodgate users receive unlimited technical and business support for 30
days, (and if you
don't take up a lot of my time, for a lot longer.) To order the FLOODGATE Bulk
Email Loader,
send your check or money order for $349.95 within 72 hours from receiving this
email letter
to:

WebAware
P.O. Box 772261
Coral Springs, FL 33077
(954) 341-2924
.....webawareSTOPspamspam@spam@viponline.com

You can receive a functional demo version of Floodgate by
simply replying back to us with the word "Floodgate" in the
subject portion of your email message.

SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS

386 or larger
Windows 3.1+ with at least 4 meg ram or Windows 95 with 8 meg ram
Extra 5 MB hard drive space

Floodgate can be run on a fast Mac with 24 MB RAM and SoftWindows.

NOTES FROM FLOODGATE USERS

"It is everything you said it was. Within one week of my first
mailing, I received a record number of orders. All you need to print money is a
decent sales
letter. Thanks." Randy albertson, Wolverine Capital.

"After using Floodgate and your utility program all day today, let me say these
are as two of
the finest programs I have ever bought in my 52 years! Your support has been
superb. Thank
You!" Vernon Hale, Prime Data Systems

"My first day and I just used Floodgate and Pegasus to send 1,469
sales letters. So far I've got about 25 positive responses. It works GREAT!!!
Thanks." Donald
Prior

"Floodgate is awesome!. I recently started a new business on-line. I stripped
the addresses of
the AOL & CIS classifieds. I sent out 3,497 email letters and got over 400
people to join my
company in 5 days! Needless to say, it pays for itself." David Sheeham, OMPD

"I was able to use Floodgate to extract the names from the Internet
news groups. It works perfectly. Needless to say, I am very excited
about the use of this new technology." Mark Eberra, Inside Connections

"This is a great piece of software and an invaluable marketing tool."
Joe Kuhn, The Millennium Group

"I just thought you'd like to know that this program is fantastic.
After loading it on my system, I wanted to test it out. In my first
hour of using this, I collected 6,092 email addresses!" Richard Kahn, LD
Communications

"I just love the Floodgate program. It saves me hours and hours of
time. This is the beginning of a wonderful FUN time marketing on-line. Thank you
so much for
writing this program." Beth O'Neill, Eudora, KS

"Your software is brilliant, and from the technical support I've
received, I can see you have a genuine love and respect of
people...Floodgate is a divine package. Wish I had found it sooner."
Tom Sanders, Peoria, IL

"I really like the way the Floodgate software package works. It is
very easy to use, and really does the trick. It has already saved me an
incredible amount of
time and energy." John Berning, Jr.,
Fairfield, NJ

"It's going great with FLOODGATE! I like using Delphi. I just
collected 50,000+ addresses within 20 minutes on-line." Richard Kahn, R&B
Associates

------------------------------------------------------------------
FLOODGATE ORDER FORM:

Please print out this order form and then fill in the blanks......

______Yes! I would like to try your cutting-edge software so that I
can advertise my business to thousands of people on-line whenever I
like! I understand that I have 10 days to trial the software. If I am not fully
delighted, I will
cheerfully be refunded the purchase price, no questions asked! Please rush me
the
FLOODGATE package now!

______I am ordering within 72 hours! That qualifies me to receive the FLOODGATE
package
at a substantial discount! I am ordering the
software for only $349.95. (Save $150 off the retail price....Software has sold
for as much as
$2,499.95)

______I am ordering within 72 hours! That qualifies me to receive free lifetime
technical
support.

______I am ordering within 72 hours and I want FREE overnight shipping!

______I am ordering within 72 hours and I want 25,000 FREE email addresses
to get me started earning money with my marketing letter.


YOUR NAME_________________________________________________________

COMPANY NAME_____________________________________________________

YOUR POSITION______________________________________________________

STREET ADDRESS_____________________________________________________

CITY, STATE, ZIP______________________________________________________

PHONE NUMBERS______________________________________________________

FAX NUMBERS_________________________________________________________

EMAIL ADDRESSES_____________________________________________________

We accept Checks or Money Orders by mail.

I agree to pay WebAware an additional $27 fee if my check is returned for
insufficient or
uncollectable funds.

SIGNATURE: X_________________________________DATE:__________________

Please send all order forms and check or money order to payable to:

Dave Mustachi
P.O. Box 772261
Coral Springs, FL 33077
(954) 341-2924
webawareEraseMEspam@spam@viponline.com


********************************************************************************
***************

OR:

PLEASE PASTE YOUR CHECK HERE

(If you fax a check, there is no need for you to send the original
check by mail. We will draft up a new check, with the exact
information from your original check that you faxed to us)

Please fax the above order form and check to: 1-954-255-3713.

1997\01\30@081450 by hoss karoly

flavicon
face
Lifetime Opportunity wrote:
SHIT .

as someone mentioned earlier this guys tend to use one account once
and then disappear .
in this case this is the third time
maybe someone could start a little REVENGE on their account
or inform their sys admin
if anybody knows where to send it , we could ALL drop a line to
make him think

or that good idea from the linux list :)
let the sys admin know that low-life-opportunists use a
pay-for-bulk service without paying the cash so we'll
take legal actions against him .

that'd make him think :)

1997\01\30@094115 by myke predko

flavicon
face
The last time this note came across, I did resend it to the UserID that sent
this with Remove and copied the sysadministrator.

And realized this was probably the dumbest thing I ever did.

I think somebody said this the last time, but I think I realized it about
the same time that the note came out:

The product this guy sells is a mailing list.  He has no idea who any of us
are and what our UserIDs are.

He finds all the listservers he can and sends the spam to them.  Everybody
who replies with "Remove" helps him in two ways:

1.  His product is enhanced with your ID.

2.  He has another sucker he can mail directly and pester to buy his product.

So by ignoring the note you are probably hurting him in the most substantial
way possible by denying him his product (your name) and another potential
customer (you).

myke

{Quote hidden}

"I don't do anything that anybody else in good physical condition and
unlimited funds couldn't do" - Bruce Wayne

1997\01\30@094815 by Christopher Zguris

picon face
A better solution would be to block posts from non-subscribers. I run a
mailing list, and that feature is enabled. Junk like this doesn't make it,
it bounces to me, and I laugh at it as I click on delete.

Just a suggestion.

Chris

   ======================================================================
         Christopher Zguris  -  RemoveMEczgurisspamspamBeGoneinterport.net  -  Uhhh, Ear?
                     1991 VFR 750 (with aspalt detailing)
                             IVFROC, HSTA, HRCA

                   There are three sides to every question:
                   your side, his side and to hell with it.

   ======================================================================

1997\01\30@112232 by Dean Hadley

flavicon
face
>Lifetime Opportunity wrote:
>SHIT .
>
>as someone mentioned earlier this guys tend to use one account once
>and then disappear .
>in this case this is the third time
>maybe someone could start a little REVENGE on their account
>or inform their sys admin
>if anybody knows where to send it , we could ALL drop a line to
>make him think
>
>or that good idea from the linux list :)
>let the sys admin know that low-life-opportunists use a
>pay-for-bulk service without paying the cash so we'll
>take legal actions against him .
>
>that'd make him think :)

-----------------------------------
Try sending your comments to Postmaster@..... the account were the low-life
came from

1997\01\30@113104 by fastfwd

face
flavicon
face
Christopher Zguris <spamBeGonePICLISTKILLspamspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU> wrote:

> A better solution would be to block posts from non-subscribers.

   The PICLIST already does this.

   -Andy

Andrew Warren - fastfwdspam_OUTspam@spam@ix.netcom.com
Fast Forward Engineering, Vista, California
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2499

1997\01\30@115343 by Mark Timpany

flavicon
face
In <spamBeGone32F09662.7D7F@spam@spambekes.hungary.net>, on 01/30/97 at 01:38 PM,
  hoss karoly <RemoveMEtimothyEraseMEspamKILLspamBEKES.HUNGARY.NET> said:

>as someone mentioned earlier this guys tend to use one account once and
>then disappear .
>in this case this is the third time

Their fax number stays the same, though. I've been sending my REMOVE
messages to their fax machine using Faxaway, an E-mail to fax server.
For a few cents I get to clutter up their fax messages with the same
junk that is cluttering my mail box.

I guess the nasty response would be to include some pages of solid
black, which tends to overheat some poorly designed fax machines.

Here's hoping that "Lifetime Opportunity" will just go away. I've had
enough for this lifetime.

Cheers,

Mark



//Mark Timpany          spamBeGonemtimpanyspam_OUTspamRemoveMEbroadcast.net
//Jakarta, Indonesia    US Toll Free Fax 1.888.316.2357

1997\01\30@142045 by mike

flavicon
picon face
In message  <.....199701301445.JAA25053spamRemoveMEyork.interport.net> PICLISTspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
writes:
> A better solution would be to block posts from non-subscribers. I run a
> mailing list, and that feature is enabled. Junk like this doesn't make it,
> it bounces to me, and I laugh at it as I click on delete.
>
> Just a suggestion.
>

Chris,

We have discussed this in the past and there are a number of problems
with it:

o  Many regular contributors have slightly different e-mail addresses
   depending on which computer they are using in their office.

o  It isn't difficult to subscribe. You may have the rule "one spam
   and you are out", but one spam is all they want. They then go
   on to a different provider with a different e-mail address and
   do it again.


Regards,



Mike Watson

1997\01\30@144752 by Doug Claar

flavicon
face
>To be removed - hit "reply" and type remove in subject of message.
>
>
>MARKETING WITH DIRECT EMAIL / BULK EMAIL SERVICES

Yep, sure is nice to be on a mailing list, where we don't get any spam...
Seems like *that* argument for not having a newsgroup is moot...

1997\01\30@170401 by Wireless Scientific

flavicon
face
At 11:41 PM +0700 1/30/97, Mark Timpany wrote:
>I guess the nasty response would be to include some pages of solid
>black, which tends to overheat some poorly designed fax machines.

How well does the compression algorithm work on completely black images?
You maybe tying up their line also but a price.


'Bulk Email For Profit'
1997\08\30@183655 by floodgate
flavicon
face
<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
To be removed - Hit reply and type "remove"
in the subject of your letter.

******************************************************

           MAIL THOUSANDS OF EMAIL MESSAGES
               PER HOUR - NO KIDDING !!

         SEND YOUR EMAIL MESSAGES OUT, AT
        1,000's MESSAGES / HOUR (28.8K modem)

          YES, 1,000's  Of Messages An Hour

******************************************************

   YOU CAN ALSO RECEIVE A "BOMB-PROOF" EMAIL ADDRESS
    AND WEB PAGE TO USE IN YOUR MARKETING LETTER !!

******************************************************

That's right. We believe that there should be little
or NO restrictions on Internet communications and email!
Our two (2) software programs demonstrate the notion of
unlimited, uncensored, and unrestricted, bullet-proof
email use.

 YOU'LL RECEIVE 2 HIGH-SPEED EMAIL SOFTWARE PROGRAMS

Introducing...."FLOODGATE BULK EMAIL LOADER"
       AND...."GOLDRUSH STEALTH MASS MAILER"

I operate a custom email service. From my experience, your typical bulk email
service just collects email addresses from any source they can rely on shear
volume emailing to produce the desired results - the "shotgun" approach. I have
found that by targeting emails to groups that would likely be specifically
interested in your product, the response rate is much better than when using
the "shotgun" approach AND you don't tend to annoy as many people (which is
nice for both sides). By targeting emails, I mean that I collect the addresses
myself from on-line areas (forums, newsgroups, etc.) so that I mail to people
that are likely to be interested in my products based on their on-line
participation.

FLOODGATE is the renegade technology that helps me do this.

This is the same software that all bulk emailing services use!

----------------------------------------------------

Floodgate Bulk Email Loader Version 5.2 AND
Goldrush Stealth Mass Mailer Version 2.018
for Windows 95 and Windows 3.1 now Supports 17
(really more with the free form filter) File Formats

----------------------------------------------------


SEND OUT 20,000+ MARKETING LETTERS EVERY SINGLE DAY!

Or...every few days. In fact, when I send out just a few thousand marketing
letters each day, it doesn't take long before I'm completely swamped with email
inquiries and phone calls. This is very easy to do. And each one of these bulk
mailings costs me nothing. I can teach you how to do this and provide you with
the tools you'll need.

If you've got a good marketing letter, I'll show you how to open the floodgates.
You'll be deluged with inquiries, leads, and real sales, using nothing but
email alone.

Writing a good marketing letter is not easy. I often have to rewrite my
marketing letters a half dozen times before I get the results I'm looking for.
But once you have a good letter, as you probably know, you can use the same
letter over and over again, predictably and consistently, closing sales, week
after week, month after month.

It takes me about one hour to send my marketing letter to THOUSANDS of fresh
email addresses. I can do this, thanks to a Windows program I use. It's called
Floodgate and Goldrush Stealth Mass Mailer. It's a bulk email loader and an
email software program. If you're interested in electronic marketing, you
should know about these programs.

PROGRAM #1: FLOODGATE FOR WINDOWS

The Floodgate Bulk Email Loader imports simple text files that anyone can
download from CompuServe, Prodigy, Delphi Genie, or the Internet. These text
files contain classified ads, forum messages, or data from the member
directory. Each of these files is filled with email addresses.

Floodgate is designed to read these files and strip out the email addresses. It
then sorts the addresses, removes any duplicates, and formats them into an
output file, with 10, 20 or 30 addresses per line. This is all done in one
simple step. Just point and click.

You'll need either a Windows based Internet account or an America On-line
account to send out your marketing letters. Neither AOL nor the Internet
charges to send email. Send your letter to 1,000 people or 10,000 people -- the
cost is always the same. NOTHING!

NEW! PREPARE A MAILING OF 50,000+
IN LESS THAN A 1/2 HOUR

If you open an Internet account, you can send each letter to 20,000+ people. The
new Floodgate now directly writes distribution lists. Some people are always
collecting new addresses, but if you publish a newsletter or adsheet, you'll be
using the same addresses over and over again. That's real power! When using
addresses you've previously collected, you can press a few buttons and prepare
a mailing of 50,000+ in less than a half hour.

(To get a list of all the Internet access providers in your local calling area
goto: http://thelist.com and click on your area code.)

The Floodgate Users Guide will teach you, step by step, how to download the
right files, how to strip the addresses, and finally, how to cut and paste the
formatted addresses into your marketing letter. Or, if you have an Internet
account, how to create distribution lists. One you've done this a few times you
won't even have to think. It's that simple!

FOR THE BRAVE & DARING: PUSHING TECHNOLOGY TO ITS LIMITS

As you may know, the practice of sending unsolicited email is usually frowned
upon, and most service providers have rules against it. But, like jay-walking,
there is little enforcement. It's not illegal. If someone tells you that it is,
ask them to provide the citation (and don't let them give you some nonsense
about faxes - that's not email). They can't do it because it's not there.
Sometimes, when a lot of people complain, I get a warning letter. And that's
about it.

About 1 in 200 will write back and tell me, "take me off the list", which I can
do, thanks to Floodgates Remove List feature. Many people reply back thanking
me for sending them my informative letter. That's always nice. Most people
though, just reply and say, "send me more info." In this way, it usually takes
me two or three letters to close a sale.

The Floodgate Users Guide will provide you with proven formats for writing a
successful marketing letter. You'll test and rewrite, test and rewrite. Then,
once you've got it, just push a few buttons, and open the floodgates!!!

THE FLOODGATE BULK EMAIL LOADER CURRENTLY SUPPORTS 17+ FILE FORMATS

1. CompuServe Classifieds: Send your marketing letter to everyone who is running
a classified ad. I'll teach you how to download all the classifieds from any
single ad category. This is one of the most responsive list of buyers. They
check their email every day and they're already in business.

2. America On-line Classifieds: Download 1,000 addresses in 15 minutes. These
are excellent lists for business to business sales.

3. CompuServe Forums: You can join a forum and download hundreds of forum
messages in a matter of minutes.

4. America On-line Forums: Choose from dozens of forums. All good targeted
lists.

5. Prodigy Forums: Prodigy allows you to easily export any group of forum
messages. More targeted lists.

6. Internet Newsgroups: These are all targeted lists. You'll be able to send
your marketing letter to everyone who posts a message in any newsgroup. Easily
collect 1,000's of addresses per hour.

7. America On-line Member Directory: Most member directories only allow you to
search by city and state. With AOL, you can search by business type, hobbies,
computer type, etc. This is the gem of all
member directories. Build huge targeted lists.

8. CompuServe Member Directory: This is a major resource. If you're willing to
target your mailing to a single city, you can collect about 1,000 email
addresses an hour.

9. Delphi Member Directory: The Delphi member directory allows you to search for
people based on key words. These are good targeted mailing lists. A single
search can easily generate 5,000 addresses.

10. Genie Member Directory: Similar to the CompuServe member directory, only you
can download names much quicker. You can easily pull hundreds of thousands of
addresses out of each of these member directories.

11. CompuServe File Cabinet: If you run classified ads, and save the responses
in the CIM file cabinet, you'll be able to easily reuse these addresses. You
can send your marketing letter to everyone in any single folder. Build master
lists and clean UP your hard drive.

12. Free Form: If you have a text file with email addresses that floodgate does
not support, chances are the Free Form filter will be just what you need. Just
enter a key word to search for.

13. CompuServe Form Profiles (Forum Membership Directories): Easy to build
targeted lists here. Each search can easily bring you 500+
addresses.

14. Genie Profiles: If you're building targeted lists, you'll get a lot of
addresses very quickly from Genie.

15. Plain Addresses: Read Floodgate Master Files back into Floodgate to merge
files and do selective mailings. Also useful for the management of email
address lists that you might purchase.

Floodgate also has filters to allow you to include or exclude any groups of
addresses in your final distribution lists. For example, you could include only
email addresses that ended in .com or exclude all with .gov. You could exclude
all noc, root, and other addresses that almost guarantee a negative response.
These filters are fully configurable and can be used together.

BUILD REUSABLE MASTER FILES

Floodgate maintains Master Files for each of your marketing letters. If you
download from the same place on a regular basis, you only want to send your
letter to the new people. Floodgate will compare the new addresses with those
in the Master File, and prepare a mailing list of only new people. The new
addresses are, of course, then added to the Master File. With each new mailing
your Master File grows and grows.

You may create as many Master Lists as you need. When you start a new marketing
campaign, you'll want to send your new letter to everyone on your Master List.
If you write a newsletter, each time you send your newsletter, you'll send it
to everyone on a Master List.

THE REMOVE LIST

Very often, people will reply and tell you to take them off your mailing list.
Place these addresses in the REMOVE.MST file and they will never receive
another letter from you again. In this way, you will be operating your business
with the most professionalism
possible.

DON'T BE FOOLED

We have some new competitors that have tried to copy Floodgate. The following
list describes why Floodgate is BETTER.......

**Floodgate is a mature, bug free product. Not an initial release.
**Floodgate comes with over 100 pages of step by step       documentation.
**Floodgate is the only one offering a money back     guarantee.
**Floodgate has more testimonials.
**Filter for filter, Floodgate offers more capabilities,   way more.
**Floodgate does everything all the others *combined* claim.
**Floodgate is by far the easiest to use.
**There is NO *cutting and pasting* with Floodgate.
**We have by far, the BEST technical support.

SOME QUICK MATH

Floodgate can pay for itself in a few days. It can also cut your advertising
costs down to almost nothing. Think of what the competition will do when they
get their Floodgate program. Don't be left in the dust - there are 75 million
people out there, just a few keystrokes away. Let's do the math:

- Email 50,000 sales letters (takes about 1-2 hours)
- Let's say your product will bring you $5 profit per   sale.
- Let's also say you only get a 1% response   (occasionally higher).

* That's 500 orders x $5 = $2,500 profit !! Now imagine what 500,000 letters
would do for your business !!

WHAT CAN I MARKET ON-LINE?

You can market anything on-line using direct email, that can be marketed using
conventional postal direct mail marketing. The possibilities are practically
endless. If it sells off-line, you can sell it on-line.

EASY TO INSTALL AND EASY TO LEARN

The Floodgate Email Loader requires Windows. The SUPPLIED MANUAL tells you where
to go, what to do, and how to do it. All you need are basic computer skills
that can be learned with a little practice or help from our computer savvy
technicians.

PROGRAM #2: GOLDRUSH STEALTH MASS MAILER

Do not get this program confused with other slow speed programs that call
themselves "STEALTH". This program is the only one in the world that can send
email out at HIGH SPEEDS with one single connection to the internet.

This is NEW, Cutting Edge Email Technology. First Of It's Kind.. The Most
Powerful BULK EMAIL SENDER In The World.. NOTHING CAN EVEN COME CLOSE!

Thanks to our top programmer's, this technology is NOW available and we are the
only place you can get it from!

    *ONLY "ONE" DIAL-UP OR ISDN CONNECTION NEEDED.
    *NO MORE TERMINATED CONNECTIONS.
    *NO MORE WAITING TO SEND LARGE AMOUNTS OF EMAIL.
    *IMMEDIATE RESPONSE TO YOUR MASS MAILINGS.
    *YOU WILL HAVE ALL THE CONTROL AND CONFIDENCE OF               SENDING
EMAIL THE WAY IT SHOULD BE SENT... IN HUGE AMOUNTS!
    *SEND YOUR WHOLE LIST IN ONE DAY, WHETHER IT BE                500,000 OR 5
MILLION - AND JUST SIT BACK AND WAIT FOR YOUR       ORDERS TO POUR IN.
    *NO MORE DOWNLOADING UNDELIVERABLE NAMES.

Bulk Emailer's Dream Come True!!! - >>>GOLDRUSH STEALTH MASS MAILER<<<

Connect to multiple mail servers (20 or more), make multiple connections to a
single server or any combination of the two ( All Simultaneously ) with one
single dial-up connection.

SEND MULTIPLE SIMULTANEOUS MAILINGS...

View complete details about your mailings. Shows each server your connected to,
the status of that connection, how many messages are going out through that
connection, etc...

We show you ALL the tricks all the mass e-mailers don't want you to know...

Here are just a few features the GOLDRUSH STEALTH MASS MAILER offers to you...

    *Forge the Header - Message ID - ISP's will Spin their wheels.
    *Add's a Bogus Authenticated Sender to the Header.
    *Add's a complete bogus Received From / Received By line with       real
time / date stamp and recipient to the Header.
    *Does NOT require a valid POP Account be entered in order to       send
your mailings.
    *Easy to use and operate
    *Plus much more!

All this, at speeds of up to 1,000's messages/hour
(28.8k modem).

SPECIAL INTRODUCTORY PRICE...

NOW YOU CAN HAVE BOTH THE FLOODGATE AND GOLDRUSH STEALTH MASS MAILER FOR JUST
$499.00!

UPDATE ... SAVE $149.05 AND ORDER NOW, BE ONE OF THE FIRST 100 ORDERS!

Step up to the plate and play with the big boys TODAY and receive the COMPLETE 2
SOFTWARE PACKAGE for the unbelievably low price of ONLY $349.95!

(Other bulk email software has sold for as much as $2,500 and can't even come
close to the cutting edge technology of EASE, ACCURACY AND SPEED ... SPEED ...
SPEED!)

      Try the Goldrush Stealth Mass Mailer & Floodgate Bulk Email Loader for 10
days FREE.
       And receive UNLIMITED technical support for 30 days.


***SPECIAL BONUS #1:*** STOP Losing ISP Dial Up Accounts!

If you order The FLOODGATE / GOLDRUSH software within the next 5 days - When you
receive your program, you will also receive:

*Complete instructions on "how to keep your dial up account from  showing up in
the header", plus everything you will need to get started doing this.

IMPORTANT NOTICE! We will initially only be offering 100 copies of the program
for sale, First come / First Served basis only. We are doing this because of
the extreme power that these programs offer.


***SPECIAL BONUS #2***

When you receive your two programs, you will also receive:
OVER 250 REPRINT AND RESELL RIGHTS REPORTS YOU CAN START TO MARKET
AND MAKE MONEY IMMEDIATELY!!!

    These HOT sellers include:
    1) How to Get a Top Rating in the Search Engines
    2) 70 Money Making Reports
    3) 75 MONEY MAKING PLANS & TRADE SECRETS and MUCH MUCH MORE!!!
($200 RETAIL VALUE - FREE!!!)


***SPECIAL BONUS #3***

With your two software programs, you will also receive our NEW "Address Grabber"
utility program that enables you to grab 100's of THOUSANDS of email addresses
from
newsgroups in minutes ($100 RETAIL VALUE - FREE).


***SPECIAL BONUS #4***

RECEIVE CHECKS BY EMAIL, PHONE OR FAX MACHINE. With this software
program, you can receive payment for your product or service INSTANTLY!!
There is no more waiting for your customers chec to arrive. This
software will no doubt, add to your sales, for customers who
don't have credit cards, as well as the impulse buyers.

With this software, you can print up your payments as soon as your
customer gives you his/her checking information. You will then
add the information given, to the proper blank check spaces, then
just print and go to the bank!!

        ***************************************************

To get your FREE demo and "test drive" our state-of-the-art software, visit our
newly renovated web page at:

                 http://www.t-1net.com/floodgate

        ****************************************************

             HURRY ... RESERVE YOURS TODAY!

So, if you are interested in taking advantage of the most powerful bulk email
software
in the world and start making money hand over fist.....

Print out the EZ ORDER form below and FAX or MAIL it to our office.

If you have any questions don't hesitate to call us at: 1-954-341-2924

SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS

386 or larger
Windows 95 OR Windows 3.1 with 8 meg ram
Extra 5 MB hard drive space

Floodgate & Goldrush can be run on a fast Mac with 24 MB RAM and SoftWindows.

NOTES FROM SATISFIED USERS

"It is everything you said it was. Within one week of my first mailing, I
received a record number of orders. All you need to print money is a decent
sales letter. Thanks." Randy albertson, Wolverine Capital.

"After using Floodgate and your utility program all day today, let me say these
are as two of the finest programs I have ever bought in my 52 years! Your
support has been superb. Thank You!" Vernon Hale, Prime Data Systems

"My first day and I just used Floodgate and Pegasus to send 1,469 sales letters.
So far I've got about 25 positive responses. It works GREAT!!! Thanks." Donald
Prior

"Floodgate is awesome!. I recently started a new business on-line. I stripped
the addresses of the AOL & CIS classifieds. I sent out 3,497 email letters and
got over 400 people to join my company in 5 days! Needless to say, it pays for
itself." David Sheeham, OMPD

"I was able to use Floodgate to extract the names from the Internet news groups.
It works perfectly. Needless to say, I am very excited about the use of this
new technology." Mark Eberra, Inside Connections

"This is a great piece of software and an invaluable marketing tool." Joe Kuhn,
The Millennium Group

"I just thought you'd like to know that this program is fantastic. After loading
it on my system, I wanted to test it out. In my first hour of using this, I
collected 6,092 email addresses!" Richard Kahn, LD Communications

"I just love the Floodgate program. It saves me hours and hours of time. This is
the beginning of a wonderful FUN time marketing on-line. Thank you so much for
writing this program." Beth O'Neill, Eudora, KS

"Your software is brilliant, and from the technical support I've received, I can
see you have a genuine love and respect of people...Floodgate is a divine
package. Wish I had found it sooner." Tom Sanders, Peoria, IL

"I really like the way the Floodgate software package works. It is very easy to
use, and really does the trick. It has already saved me an incredible amount of
time and energy." John Berning, Jr., Fairfield, NJ

"It's going great with FLOODGATE! I like using Delphi. I just collected 50,000+
addresses within 20 minutes on-line." Richard Kahn, R&B Associates

-------------------------------------------------
E-Z ORDER FORM:

Please print out this order form and fill in the blanks......
Please send order form and check or money order, payable to:

Dave Mustachi
P.O. Box 772261
Coral Springs, FL 33077-2261
(954) 341-2924


______Yes! I would like to try your cutting-edge software so that I can
advertise my business to thousands of people on-line whenever I like! I
understand that I have 10 days to trial the
software. If I am not fully delighted, I will
cheerfully be refunded the purchase price, no
questions asked! Please rush me the FLOODGATE and GOLDRUSH package now!

______I am ordering within 72 hours! That qualifies me to receive the FLOODGATE
and GOLDRUSH package at a substantial discount! I am ordering BOTH software
packages for only $349.95. (Save $150 off the retail price....Software has sold
for as much as $2,499.95)

______I am ordering within 72 hours! That qualifies me to receive free lifetime
technical support.

______I want to receive the package OVERNIGHT. I'm including $18.00 for shipping
charges.

______I want to receive the package 2nd DAY. I'm including $3.00 for shipping
charges.

______I am also interested in purchasing a "bomb-proof" email
address and Web page to use in my marketing letter and
NEVER HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT LOSING MY ISP. The cost of this service
is ONLY $70 per month. If you're interested in this service, PLEASE
contact David Taylor, Taylor Made Communications, 915-550-3039.

(CHECKS: ALLOW 1 WEEK FOR BANK CLEARANCE)


YOUR NAME_________________________________________________

COMPANY NAME_________________________________________________

YOUR POSITION_____________________________________________

STREET ADDRESS______________________________________________

CITY, STATE, ZIP__________________________________________________

PHONE NUMBERS_______________________________________________

FAX NUMBERS_______________________________________________

EMAIL ADDRESSES_____________________________________________

We accept Checks or Money Orders by mail.

I agree to pay Dave Mustachi an additional $29 fee if my check is returned for
insufficient or uncollectable funds.

SIGNATURE: X________________________________DATE:_______________

Please send all order forms and check or money order to payable to:

Dave Mustachi
P.O. Box 772261
Coral Springs, FL 33077
(954) 341-2924


***************************************************

OR:

PLEASE PASTE YOUR CHECK HERE

(If you fax a check, there is no need for you to send the original check by
mail. We will draft up a new check, with the exact information from your
original check that you faxed to us)

Please fax the above order form and check to: 1-954-255-3713

</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>
0m  SI


'Bulk Email For Profit'
1997\09\02@172758 by floodgate
flavicon
face
<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
To be removed - Hit reply and type "remove"
in the subject of your letter.

******************************************************

           MAIL THOUSANDS OF EMAIL MESSAGES
               PER HOUR - NO KIDDING !!

         SEND YOUR EMAIL MESSAGES OUT, AT
        1,000's MESSAGES / HOUR (28.8K modem)

          YES, 1,000's  Of Messages An Hour

******************************************************

   YOU CAN ALSO RECEIVE A "BOMB-PROOF" EMAIL ADDRESS
    AND WEB PAGE TO USE IN YOUR MARKETING LETTER !!

******************************************************

That's right. We believe that there should be little
or NO restrictions on Internet communications and email!
Our two (2) software programs demonstrate the notion of
unlimited, uncensored, and unrestricted, bullet-proof
email use.

 YOU'LL RECEIVE 2 HIGH-SPEED EMAIL SOFTWARE PROGRAMS

Introducing...."FLOODGATE BULK EMAIL LOADER"
       AND...."GOLDRUSH STEALTH MASS MAILER"

I operate a custom email service. From my experience, your typical bulk email
service just collects email addresses from any source they can rely on shear
volume emailing to produce the desired results - the "shotgun" approach. I have
found that by targeting emails to groups that would likely be specifically
interested in your product, the response rate is much better than when using
the "shotgun" approach AND you don't tend to annoy as many people (which is
nice for both sides). By targeting emails, I mean that I collect the addresses
myself from on-line areas (forums, newsgroups, etc.) so that I mail to people
that are likely to be interested in my products based on their on-line
participation.

FLOODGATE is the renegade technology that helps me do this.

This is the same software that all bulk emailing services use!

----------------------------------------------------

Floodgate Bulk Email Loader Version 5.2 AND
Goldrush Stealth Mass Mailer Version 2.018
for Windows 95 and Windows 3.1 now Supports 17
(really more with the free form filter) File Formats

----------------------------------------------------


SEND OUT 20,000+ MARKETING LETTERS EVERY SINGLE DAY!

Or...every few days. In fact, when I send out just a few thousand marketing
letters each day, it doesn't take long before I'm completely swamped with email
inquiries and phone calls. This is very easy to do. And each one of these bulk
mailings costs me nothing. I can teach you how to do this and provide you with
the tools you'll need.

If you've got a good marketing letter, I'll show you how to open the floodgates.
You'll be deluged with inquiries, leads, and real sales, using nothing but
email alone.

Writing a good marketing letter is not easy. I often have to rewrite my
marketing letters a half dozen times before I get the results I'm looking for.
But once you have a good letter, as you probably know, you can use the same
letter over and over again, predictably and consistently, closing sales, week
after week, month after month.

It takes me about one hour to send my marketing letter to THOUSANDS of fresh
email addresses. I can do this, thanks to a Windows program I use. It's called
Floodgate and Goldrush Stealth Mass Mailer. It's a bulk email loader and an
email software program. If you're interested in electronic marketing, you
should know about these programs.

PROGRAM #1: FLOODGATE FOR WINDOWS

The Floodgate Bulk Email Loader imports simple text files that anyone can
download from CompuServe, Prodigy, Delphi Genie, or the Internet. These text
files contain classified ads, forum messages, or data from the member
directory. Each of these files is filled with email addresses.

Floodgate is designed to read these files and strip out the email addresses. It
then sorts the addresses, removes any duplicates, and formats them into an
output file, with 10, 20 or 30 addresses per line. This is all done in one
simple step. Just point and click.

You'll need either a Windows based Internet account or an America On-line
account to send out your marketing letters. Neither AOL nor the Internet
charges to send email. Send your letter to 1,000 people or 10,000 people -- the
cost is always the same. NOTHING!

NEW! PREPARE A MAILING OF 50,000+
IN LESS THAN A 1/2 HOUR

If you open an Internet account, you can send each letter to 20,000+ people. The
new Floodgate now directly writes distribution lists. Some people are always
collecting new addresses, but if you publish a newsletter or adsheet, you'll be
using the same addresses over and over again. That's real power! When using
addresses you've previously collected, you can press a few buttons and prepare
a mailing of 50,000+ in less than a half hour.

(To get a list of all the Internet access providers in your local calling area
goto: http://thelist.com and click on your area code.)

The Floodgate Users Guide will teach you, step by step, how to download the
right files, how to strip the addresses, and finally, how to cut and paste the
formatted addresses into your marketing letter. Or, if you have an Internet
account, how to create distribution lists. One you've done this a few times you
won't even have to think. It's that simple!

FOR THE BRAVE & DARING: PUSHING TECHNOLOGY TO ITS LIMITS

As you may know, the practice of sending unsolicited email is usually frowned
upon, and most service providers have rules against it. But, like jay-walking,
there is little enforcement. It's not illegal. If someone tells you that it is,
ask them to provide the citation (and don't let them give you some nonsense
about faxes - that's not email). They can't do it because it's not there.
Sometimes, when a lot of people complain, I get a warning letter. And that's
about it.

About 1 in 200 will write back and tell me, "take me off the list", which I can
do, thanks to Floodgates Remove List feature. Many people reply back thanking
me for sending them my informative letter. That's always nice. Most people
though, just reply and say, "send me more info." In this way, it usually takes
me two or three letters to close a sale.

The Floodgate Users Guide will provide you with proven formats for writing a
successful marketing letter. You'll test and rewrite, test and rewrite. Then,
once you've got it, just push a few buttons, and open the floodgates!!!

THE FLOODGATE BULK EMAIL LOADER CURRENTLY SUPPORTS 17+ FILE FORMATS

1. CompuServe Classifieds: Send your marketing letter to everyone who is running
a classified ad. I'll teach you how to download all the classifieds from any
single ad category. This is one of the most responsive list of buyers. They
check their email every day and they're already in business.

2. America On-line Classifieds: Download 1,000 addresses in 15 minutes. These
are excellent lists for business to business sales.

3. CompuServe Forums: You can join a forum and download hundreds of forum
messages in a matter of minutes.

4. America On-line Forums: Choose from dozens of forums. All good targeted
lists.

5. Prodigy Forums: Prodigy allows you to easily export any group of forum
messages. More targeted lists.

6. Internet Newsgroups: These are all targeted lists. You'll be able to send
your marketing letter to everyone who posts a message in any newsgroup. Easily
collect 1,000's of addresses per hour.

7. America On-line Member Directory: Most member directories only allow you to
search by city and state. With AOL, you can search by business type, hobbies,
computer type, etc. This is the gem of all
member directories. Build huge targeted lists.

8. CompuServe Member Directory: This is a major resource. If you're willing to
target your mailing to a single city, you can collect about 1,000 email
addresses an hour.

9. Delphi Member Directory: The Delphi member directory allows you to search for
people based on key words. These are good targeted mailing lists. A single
search can easily generate 5,000 addresses.

10. Genie Member Directory: Similar to the CompuServe member directory, only you
can download names much quicker. You can easily pull hundreds of thousands of
addresses out of each of these member directories.

11. CompuServe File Cabinet: If you run classified ads, and save the responses
in the CIM file cabinet, you'll be able to easily reuse these addresses. You
can send your marketing letter to everyone in any single folder. Build master
lists and clean UP your hard drive.

12. Free Form: If you have a text file with email addresses that floodgate does
not support, chances are the Free Form filter will be just what you need. Just
enter a key word to search for.

13. CompuServe Form Profiles (Forum Membership Directories): Easy to build
targeted lists here. Each search can easily bring you 500+
addresses.

14. Genie Profiles: If you're building targeted lists, you'll get a lot of
addresses very quickly from Genie.

15. Plain Addresses: Read Floodgate Master Files back into Floodgate to merge
files and do selective mailings. Also useful for the management of email
address lists that you might purchase.

Floodgate also has filters to allow you to include or exclude any groups of
addresses in your final distribution lists. For example, you could include only
email addresses that ended in .com or exclude all with .gov. You could exclude
all noc, root, and other addresses that almost guarantee a negative response.
These filters are fully configurable and can be used together.

BUILD REUSABLE MASTER FILES

Floodgate maintains Master Files for each of your marketing letters. If you
download from the same place on a regular basis, you only want to send your
letter to the new people. Floodgate will compare the new addresses with those
in the Master File, and prepare a mailing list of only new people. The new
addresses are, of course, then added to the Master File. With each new mailing
your Master File grows and grows.

You may create as many Master Lists as you need. When you start a new marketing
campaign, you'll want to send your new letter to everyone on your Master List.
If you write a newsletter, each time you send your newsletter, you'll send it
to everyone on a Master List.

THE REMOVE LIST

Very often, people will reply and tell you to take them off your mailing list.
Place these addresses in the REMOVE.MST file and they will never receive
another letter from you again. In this way, you will be operating your business
with the most professionalism
possible.

DON'T BE FOOLED

We have some new competitors that have tried to copy Floodgate. The following
list describes why Floodgate is BETTER.......

**Floodgate is a mature, bug free product. Not an initial release.
**Floodgate comes with over 100 pages of step by step       documentation.
**Floodgate is the only one offering a money back     guarantee.
**Floodgate has more testimonials.
**Filter for filter, Floodgate offers more capabilities,   way more.
**Floodgate does everything all the others *combined* claim.
**Floodgate is by far the easiest to use.
**There is NO *cutting and pasting* with Floodgate.
**We have by far, the BEST technical support.

SOME QUICK MATH

Floodgate can pay for itself in a few days. It can also cut your advertising
costs down to almost nothing. Think of what the competition will do when they
get their Floodgate program. Don't be left in the dust - there are 75 million
people out there, just a few keystrokes away. Let's do the math:

- Email 50,000 sales letters (takes about 1-2 hours)
- Let's say your product will bring you $5 profit per   sale.
- Let's also say you only get a 1% response   (occasionally higher).

* That's 500 orders x $5 = $2,500 profit !! Now imagine what 500,000 letters
would do for your business !!

WHAT CAN I MARKET ON-LINE?

You can market anything on-line using direct email, that can be marketed using
conventional postal direct mail marketing. The possibilities are practically
endless. If it sells off-line, you can sell it on-line.

EASY TO INSTALL AND EASY TO LEARN

The Floodgate Email Loader requires Windows. The SUPPLIED MANUAL tells you where
to go, what to do, and how to do it. All you need are basic computer skills
that can be learned with a little practice or help from our computer savvy
technicians.

PROGRAM #2: GOLDRUSH STEALTH MASS MAILER

Do not get this program confused with other slow speed programs that call
themselves "STEALTH". This program is the only one in the world that can send
email out at HIGH SPEEDS with one single connection to the internet.

This is NEW, Cutting Edge Email Technology. First Of It's Kind.. The Most
Powerful BULK EMAIL SENDER In The World.. NOTHING CAN EVEN COME CLOSE!

Thanks to our top programmer's, this technology is NOW available and we are the
only place you can get it from!

    *ONLY "ONE" DIAL-UP OR ISDN CONNECTION NEEDED.
    *NO MORE TERMINATED CONNECTIONS.
    *NO MORE WAITING TO SEND LARGE AMOUNTS OF EMAIL.
    *IMMEDIATE RESPONSE TO YOUR MASS MAILINGS.
    *YOU WILL HAVE ALL THE CONTROL AND CONFIDENCE OF               SENDING
EMAIL THE WAY IT SHOULD BE SENT... IN HUGE AMOUNTS!
    *SEND YOUR WHOLE LIST IN ONE DAY, WHETHER IT BE                500,000 OR 5
MILLION - AND JUST SIT BACK AND WAIT FOR YOUR       ORDERS TO POUR IN.
    *NO MORE DOWNLOADING UNDELIVERABLE NAMES.

Bulk Emailer's Dream Come True!!! - >>>GOLDRUSH STEALTH MASS MAILER<<<

Connect to multiple mail servers (20 or more), make multiple connections to a
single server or any combination of the two ( All Simultaneously ) with one
single dial-up connection.

SEND MULTIPLE SIMULTANEOUS MAILINGS...

View complete details about your mailings. Shows each server your connected to,
the status of that connection, how many messages are going out through that
connection, etc...

We show you ALL the tricks all the mass e-mailers don't want you to know...

Here are just a few features the GOLDRUSH STEALTH MASS MAILER offers to you...

    *Forge the Header - Message ID - ISP's will Spin their wheels.
    *Add's a Bogus Authenticated Sender to the Header.
    *Add's a complete bogus Received From / Received By line with       real
time / date stamp and recipient to the Header.
    *Does NOT require a valid POP Account be entered in order to       send
your mailings.
    *Easy to use and operate
    *Plus much more!

All this, at speeds of up to 1,000's messages/hour
(28.8k modem).

SPECIAL INTRODUCTORY PRICE...

NOW YOU CAN HAVE BOTH THE FLOODGATE AND GOLDRUSH STEALTH MASS MAILER FOR JUST
$499.00!

UPDATE ... SAVE $149.05 AND ORDER NOW, BE ONE OF THE FIRST 100 ORDERS!

Step up to the plate and play with the big boys TODAY and receive the COMPLETE 2
SOFTWARE PACKAGE for the unbelievably low price of ONLY $349.95!

(Other bulk email software has sold for as much as $2,500 and can't even come
close to the cutting edge technology of EASE, ACCURACY AND SPEED ... SPEED ...
SPEED!)

      Try the Goldrush Stealth Mass Mailer & Floodgate Bulk Email Loader for 10
days FREE.
       And receive UNLIMITED technical support for 30 days.


***SPECIAL BONUS #1:*** STOP Losing ISP Dial Up Accounts!

If you order The FLOODGATE / GOLDRUSH software within the next 5 days - When you
receive your program, you will also receive:

*Complete instructions on "how to keep your dial up account from  showing up in
the header", plus everything you will need to get started doing this.

IMPORTANT NOTICE! We will initially only be offering 100 copies of the program
for sale, First come / First Served basis only. We are doing this because of
the extreme power that these programs offer.


***SPECIAL BONUS #2***

When you receive your two programs, you will also receive:
OVER 250 REPRINT AND RESELL RIGHTS REPORTS YOU CAN START TO MARKET
AND MAKE MONEY IMMEDIATELY!!!

    These HOT sellers include:
    1) How to Get a Top Rating in the Search Engines
    2) 70 Money Making Reports
    3) 75 MONEY MAKING PLANS & TRADE SECRETS and MUCH MUCH MORE!!!
($200 RETAIL VALUE - FREE!!!)


***SPECIAL BONUS #3***

With your two software programs, you will also receive our NEW "Address Grabber"
utility program that enables you to grab 100's of THOUSANDS of email addresses
from
newsgroups in minutes ($100 RETAIL VALUE - FREE).


***SPECIAL BONUS #4***

RECEIVE CHECKS BY EMAIL, PHONE OR FAX MACHINE. With this software
program, you can receive payment for your product or service INSTANTLY!!
There is no more waiting for your customers chec to arrive. This
software will no doubt, add to your sales, for customers who
don't have credit cards, as well as the impulse buyers.

With this software, you can print up your payments as soon as your
customer gives you his/her checking information. You will then
add the information given, to the proper blank check spaces, then
just print and go to the bank!!

        ***************************************************

To get your FREE demo and "test drive" our state-of-the-art software, visit our
newly renovated web page at:

                 http://www.t-1net.com/floodgate

        ****************************************************

             HURRY ... RESERVE YOURS TODAY!

So, if you are interested in taking advantage of the most powerful bulk email
software
in the world and start making money hand over fist.....

Print out the EZ ORDER form below and FAX or MAIL it to our office.

If you have any questions don't hesitate to call us at: 1-954-341-2924

SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS

386 or larger
Windows 95 OR Windows 3.1 with 8 meg ram
Extra 5 MB hard drive space

Floodgate & Goldrush can be run on a fast Mac with 24 MB RAM and SoftWindows.

NOTES FROM SATISFIED USERS

"It is everything you said it was. Within one week of my first mailing, I
received a record number of orders. All you need to print money is a decent
sales letter. Thanks." Randy albertson, Wolverine Capital.

"After using Floodgate and your utility program all day today, let me say these
are as two of the finest programs I have ever bought in my 52 years! Your
support has been superb. Thank You!" Vernon Hale, Prime Data Systems

"My first day and I just used Floodgate and Pegasus to send 1,469 sales letters.
So far I've got about 25 positive responses. It works GREAT!!! Thanks." Donald
Prior

"Floodgate is awesome!. I recently started a new business on-line. I stripped
the addresses of the AOL & CIS classifieds. I sent out 3,497 email letters and
got over 400 people to join my company in 5 days! Needless to say, it pays for
itself." David Sheeham, OMPD

"I was able to use Floodgate to extract the names from the Internet news groups.
It works perfectly. Needless to say, I am very excited about the use of this
new technology." Mark Eberra, Inside Connections

"This is a great piece of software and an invaluable marketing tool." Joe Kuhn,
The Millennium Group

"I just thought you'd like to know that this program is fantastic. After loading
it on my system, I wanted to test it out. In my first hour of using this, I
collected 6,092 email addresses!" Richard Kahn, LD Communications

"I just love the Floodgate program. It saves me hours and hours of time. This is
the beginning of a wonderful FUN time marketing on-line. Thank you so much for
writing this program." Beth O'Neill, Eudora, KS

"Your software is brilliant, and from the technical support I've received, I can
see you have a genuine love and respect of people...Floodgate is a divine
package. Wish I had found it sooner." Tom Sanders, Peoria, IL

"I really like the way the Floodgate software package works. It is very easy to
use, and really does the trick. It has already saved me an incredible amount of
time and energy." John Berning, Jr., Fairfield, NJ

"It's going great with FLOODGATE! I like using Delphi. I just collected 50,000+
addresses within 20 minutes on-line." Richard Kahn, R&B Associates

-------------------------------------------------
E-Z ORDER FORM:

Please print out this order form and fill in the blanks......
Please send order form and check or money order, payable to:

Dave Mustachi
P.O. Box 772261
Coral Springs, FL 33077-2261
(954) 341-2924


______Yes! I would like to try your cutting-edge software so that I can
advertise my business to thousands of people on-line whenever I like! I
understand that I have 10 days to trial the
software. If I am not fully delighted, I will
cheerfully be refunded the purchase price, no
questions asked! Please rush me the FLOODGATE and GOLDRUSH package now!

______I am ordering within 72 hours! That qualifies me to receive the FLOODGATE
and GOLDRUSH package at a substantial discount! I am ordering BOTH software
packages for only $349.95. (Save $150 off the retail price....Software has sold
for as much as $2,499.95)

______I am ordering within 72 hours! That qualifies me to receive free lifetime
technical support.

______I want to receive the package OVERNIGHT. I'm including $18.00 for shipping
charges.

______I want to receive the package 2nd DAY. I'm including $3.00 for shipping
charges.

______I am also interested in purchasing a "bomb-proof" email
address and Web page to use in my marketing letter and
NEVER HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT LOSING MY ISP. The cost of this service
is ONLY $70 per month. If you're interested in this service, PLEASE
contact David Taylor, Taylor Made Communications, 915-550-3039.

(CHECKS: ALLOW 1 WEEK FOR BANK CLEARANCE)


YOUR NAME_________________________________________________

COMPANY NAME_________________________________________________

YOUR POSITION_____________________________________________

STREET ADDRESS______________________________________________

CITY, STATE, ZIP__________________________________________________

PHONE NUMBERS_______________________________________________

FAX NUMBERS_______________________________________________

EMAIL ADDRESSES_____________________________________________

We accept Checks or Money Orders by mail.

I agree to pay Dave Mustachi an additional $29 fee if my check is returned for
insufficient or uncollectable funds.

SIGNATURE: X________________________________DATE:_______________

Please send all order forms and check or money order to payable to:

Dave Mustachi
P.O. Box 772261
Coral Springs, FL 33077
(954) 341-2924


***************************************************

OR:

PLEASE PASTE YOUR CHECK HERE

(If you fax a check, there is no need for you to send the original check by
mail. We will draft up a new check, with the exact information from your
original check that you faxed to us)

Please fax the above order form and check to: 1-954-255-3713

</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE

1997\09\02@180123 by Martin R. Green

picon face
Some A**hole wrote:

SEND OUT 20,000+ MARKETING LETTERS EVERY SINGLE DAY!

Or...every few days. In fact, when I send out just a few thousand marketing
letters each day, it doesn't take long before I'm completely swamped with email
inquiries and phone calls.

Or mail bombs and death threats!

Martin R. Green
EraseMEelimarRemoveMEspamSTOPspambigfoot.com


'Bulk Erasing F84'
1998\02\11@045401 by Veneziano Massimo
flavicon
face
With the collaboration of Steve Marchant I've modified the software for
controlling his low cost PicC84 programmer in order to support the
PICF84.

Now all modification for the new 16F84 are working properly except for
the BULK ERASE PROGRAM / DATA memory.
In fact the BULK ERASE commands seems to be without result.

I know that there was a previous message of Vassili Zibarof and a
corresponding answer of Nigel Goodwin about the same argument.
Nigel suggested  to add a "Begin Programming" command before the "Bulk
Erase" one.

I've tried and this solution works.. really!
       There is only a little problem. IT DESTROY THE DEVICE !!

Then at the end this is the situation :
a) The Microchip Memory Programming Specification description does'n
work (see paragraph 2.3.1.8 and 2.3.1.9)
b) After a request to Microchip, at this moments, there are no answers.
c) Adding the 'corridor voice' of inserting a Begin Programming command
doesn't take useful results.

Conclusion : I've implemented two work-around

a) Bulk Erasing Program Memory
Execute a Disabling Code protection commands (as described on paragraph
4.1 of the 'F8X Programming specification).
with the CP bits set to "1" (unprotect).
In this condition, you are only able to Bulk Erase the Program Memory
(and not the Data Memory).

b) Bulk Erasing Program & Data Memory
Protect the device by setting the CP bits to "0", then execute a
Disabling Code protection commands.
In this condition, you Bulk Erase both the Program & Data Memory.

As you can see there is no way to Erase the Data Memory only.

Are there other known and verified procedure?
Does anyone know an official procedure from Microchip?


                                                               Massimo
Veneziano

1998\02\11@104029 by rtszib

flavicon
face
Veneziano Massimo wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Dear Massimo!

I implemented algorithms exactly as they were given by Nigel Goodvin.
Without his advise I really got stuck with it. When I implemented then
everything started working OK. I tested BULK Erase for data memory as
well as for programm memory - all work. No matter is it code protected
or not.
BTW it is almost impossible to destoy any chip by executing commands.
You'd better check your pover supply circuitry especially that which
applies 12 V to MCLR pin and 5 V connections.

I can help you if you send me your algorithms for check-out. If you do,
please email me directly for I will unsubscribe from piclist for a week
or two due to business trip.

Regards,
Vassili

1998\02\12@150412 by Nigel Goodwin

flavicon
picon face
In message <RemoveME3FA39F9022D1D011831C00805FA65A3A0A8573KILLspamspamTakeThisOuTxrr3.cselt.stet.it>,> Veneziano Massimo <spamBeGoneMassimo.Venezianospam@spam@CSELT.IT> writes
>With the collaboration of Steve Marchant I've modified the software for
>controlling his low cost PicC84 programmer in order to support the
>PICF84.
>
>Now all modification for the new 16F84 are working properly except for
>the BULK ERASE PROGRAM / DATA memory.
>In fact the BULK ERASE commands seems to be without result.
>
>I know that there was a previous message of Vassili Zibarof and a
>corresponding answer of Nigel Goodwin about the same argument.
>Nigel suggested  to add a "Begin Programming" command before the "Bulk
>Erase" one.
>
>I've tried and this solution works.. really!
>        There is only a little problem. IT DESTROY THE DEVICE !!

Well it doesn't destroy my devices :-). There are a great many people
using the various versions of my software (all of which use the same
erase code) and I've never had one complaint of it killing PIC's.
--

Nigel.

       /--------------------------------------------------------------\
       | Nigel Goodwin   | Internet : RemoveMEnigelgspam_OUTspamlpilsley.demon.co.uk     |
       | Lower Pilsley   | Web Page : http://www.lpilsley.demon.co.uk |
       | Chesterfield    |                                            |
       | England         |                                            |
       \--------------------------------------------------------------/

1998\02\16@040942 by Veneziano Massimo

flavicon
face
{Quote hidden}


'Bulk Bi-polar Transistor'
1998\03\12@165557 by Paul Dartanian
flavicon
part 0 1046 bytes
!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
Hi
 
I got large quantity of Bulk Bipolar transistors to sell anyone interested mail me.
 
Best regards
Paul Dartanian
  

'16F84 "Bulk" erase problems.'
1998\03\15@175058 by mjb

flavicon
face
I've built my own programmer (a serial programmer for both the EPROM
and Flash parts) and it programs great.  I'm having problems with the
"bulk" erasing of the program and data areas.  My first problem is
ambiguity in the data sheet.  In the data sheet it reads:

Bulk Erase Program Memory
To perform a bulk erase of the program memory, the following
sequence must be performed.
1. Do a "Load Data All 1's" command.
2. Do a "Bulk Erase User Memory" command.
3. Do a "Begin Programming" command.
4. Wait 10 ms to complete bulk erase.

But there are two "load data" commands, one for "load data for program
memory", (000010) and the other, "load data for data memory" (000011).
Ok, I assumed that if I was erasing  the program area, I'd use "load
data for program memory", and similarly for the data area.  Sounds
logical to me, but... it doesn't work.

It *does* seem to erase the memory location that I'm currently at,
in either the program or the data area, but I was under the impression
that a "bulk" erase would erase *all* of the respective memory locations
(data or program).

So, does the "bulk erase" erase one or all memory locations, and
if it does erase them all, how do you actually do it?  Have you
made the procedure in the data sheet actually work?

If you're the one who helps me solve this problem, I'll treat you
to your favorite coffee/tea/soda/beer the next time you are in
the Washington, D.C. area!

Matt


-----------------------------
Matt Bennett                |
mjbspamspamhazmat.com              |
http://www.hazmat.com/~mjb/ |

1998\03\15@193154 by Tomi J Virtanen

flavicon
face
At 17:46 15-03-98 -0500, Matt Bennett wrote:
>I've built my own programmer (a serial programmer for both the EPROM
>and Flash parts) and it programs great.  I'm having problems with the
>"bulk" erasing of the program and data areas.  My first problem is
>ambiguity in the data sheet.  In the data sheet it reads:
>

I have also recently made my own serial programmer for mid-range PICs.
I also encountered the same bulk erase problem with the 16F84/16C84.
Otherwise my programmer works fine.
If anyone knows how to make the bulk erase to work, please tell me too!

I tried the following:
1.      load data all '1's      (000010b, 0b, 11111111111111b, 0b)
2.      bulk erase pgm mem      (001001b)
3.      begin programming       (001000b)
4.      I waited 10ms before doing anything else to it..

But no bulk erase happens...

--Tomi Virtanen
 spam_OUTtjvirtanspam_OUTspamspam_OUTcc.helsinki.fi

1998\03\16@065737 by Caisson

flavicon
face
{Quote hidden}

Correct that : Your _overwriting_ the current memory location.
(Just change step #1's data and observe the result ...)

> in either the program or the data area, but I was under the impression
> that a "bulk" erase would erase *all* of the respective memory locations
> (data or program).

Don't correct that ;-)  That's what it's supposed to do !
>
> So, does the "bulk erase" erase one or all memory locations, and
> if it does erase them all, how do you actually do it?  Have you
> made the procedure in the data sheet actually work?

I've had the same problem with a 16C84 and contacted my supplier, and
still have no answer (after 4-and-a-half months).  But ... Fiddeling around
(and reading this mailing-list) I've found the solution to _my_ problem:
just swap step 2 & 3.

If that doesn't work, add another 'Begin programming' after the
'Bulk-erase'
command.

> If you're the one who helps me solve this problem, I'll treat you
> to your favorite coffee/tea/soda/beer the next time you are in
> the Washington, D.C. area!

Thanks! I'll keep that in mind.
> Matt
>
> mjbspamBeGonespam.....hazmat.com              |
> http://www.hazmat.com/~mjb/ |

Greetz,
  Rudy Wieser

1998\03\16@092125 by David Tait

flavicon
picon face
Tomi Virtanen wrote:
> I tried the following:
> 1.      load data all '1's      (000010b, 0b, 11111111111111b, 0b)
> 2.      bulk erase pgm mem      (001001b)
> 3.      begin programming       (001000b)
> 4.      I waited 10ms before doing anything else to it..
>
> But no bulk erase happens...

Close.  It seems the bulk erase commands work like the load data
commands and need data.  Here's what I do:

1. send 001001                 bulk erase program memory
2. send 0111111111111110       all 1s data (padded with 0s)
3. send 001000                 begin programming
4. delay 10ms

With a similar sequence for bulk erase data memory.

By the way, the C source code of my own programmer software is
contained in:

http://www.man.ac.uk/~mbhstdj/files/pic84v04.zip

David

1998\03\17@034851 by Lauri Pirttiaho

flavicon
face
David wrote:
:It seems the bulk erase commands work like the load data
:commands and need data.  Here's what I do:
:
:1. send 001001                 bulk erase program memory
:2. send 0111111111111110       all 1s data (padded with 0s)
:3. send 001000                 begin programming
:4. delay 10ms
:
:With a similar sequence for bulk erase data memory.

Or the other sequence that came up earlier (and which I have
tested to work properly).

To erase the program memory:
1. Send 000010 011111111111110  "load program all ones"
2. Send 001000                  "begin programming"
3. Send 001001                  "bulk erase program memory"
4. Send 001000                  "begin programming"
5. Wait for 10ms or more.

To erase the data memory change above:
1. Send 000011 011111111111110  "load data all ones"
3. Send 001011                  "bulk erase data memory"

If you do the bulk erase program while in the test memory
also the ID's will be erased. In addition, if the code
protection is on also the configuration will be erased.

I don't know what the guys at Microchip actually intended
the erase procedure to be, they have not answered my questions.
Anyway, the document on programming the 16F8X (DS30262A)
gives the sequence I show abvove, without step 2. As to
David's sequence, the doc says bulk erase command does not
take data, but maybe it does as you can conclude from the
fact that David's code works.

Had I a PC, a logic analyzer and a PicStart+ I would check what
procedure Microchip uses for the bulk erase.

-- Lauri

---
<a href="http://www.ee.oulu.fi/~lapi/">For more info.</a>

1998\03\17@034917 by Nigel Goodwin

flavicon
picon face
In message <KILLspam199803152246.RAA23663spam.....scdh-99.umd.edu>, Matt Bennett
<spam_OUTmjbspamKILLspamSCDH-99.UMD.EDU> writes
>I've built my own programmer (a serial programmer for both the EPROM
>and Flash parts) and it programs great.  I'm having problems with the
>"bulk" erasing of the program and data areas.  My first problem is
>ambiguity in the data sheet.  In the data sheet it reads:

I could never get it to work either, eventually someone advised me to
add an extra "Begin Programming" command.

>Bulk Erase Program Memory
>To perform a bulk erase of the program memory, the following
>sequence must be performed.
>1. Do a "Load Data All 1's" command.

* add "Begin Programming" command here. *

{Quote hidden}

Here is the EraseAll prodcedure used in both my DOS(TP7.0) and
Windows(Delphi 1.0 and 3.0) software

Procedure EraseAll;
Var
 i : Byte;
Begin
 {Clear Protect fuse}
 ProgMode(POn);
 Command(LdConf);
 OutWord($3FFF);
 FOR i := 0 TO 6 Do
   Command(IncAdd);
 Command(1);
 Command(7);
 Command(BegPrg);
 Delay(PgmCfg[Current].Settings[DelayTime]);
 Command(1);
 Command(7);
 Command(BegPrg);
 Delay(PgmCfg[Current].Settings[DelayTime]);
 ProgMode(POff);

 {Clear Data memory}
 ProgMode(POn);
 Command(LdData);
 OutWord($3FFF);
 Command(BegPrg);
 Command(ErsDat);
 Command(BegPrg);
 Delay(PgmCfg[Current].Settings[DelayTime]);
 ProgMode(POff);

 {Clear Prog memory}
 ProgMode(POn);
 Command(LdProg);
 OutWord($3FFF);
 Command(BegPrg);
 Command(ErsPrg);
 Command(BegPrg);
 Delay(PgmCfg[Current].Settings[DelayTime]);
 ProgMode(POff);
End;

>If you're the one who helps me solve this problem, I'll treat you
>to your favorite coffee/tea/soda/beer the next time you are in
>the Washington, D.C. area!

That's not a great offer!, I'm not very likely to get across there :-).
--

Nigel.

       /--------------------------------------------------------------\
       | Nigel Goodwin   | Internet : RemoveMEnigelgRemoveMEspamEraseMElpilsley.demon.co.uk     |
       | Lower Pilsley   | Web Page : http://www.lpilsley.demon.co.uk |
       | Chesterfield    |                                            |
       | England         |                                            |
       \--------------------------------------------------------------/

1998\03\17@081131 by Matthew J. Bennett

flavicon
face
I have to agree with Lauri Pirttiaho about David Tait's technique of
sending data after the "bulk erase" command, it works. to paraphrase from
David's email:

>1. send 001001                 bulk erase program memory
>2. send 0111111111111110       all 1s data (padded with 0s)
>3. send 001000                 begin programming
>4. delay 10ms

This worked for me, and replacing the command in step one with the command
for "bulk erase data memory" also worked to erase the data memory.  Now the
"flash" part of my programmer works great.  On the other hand...  I'm still
having problems with the EPROM.  Are there errors in the EPROM algorithm too?

Matt

-----------------------------
Matt Bennett                |
KILLspammjbspamspamBeGonehazmat.com              |
http://www.hazmat.com/~mjb/ |


'PIC 16C84 Bulk Erase'
1999\01\24@112830 by mahfoud rahal
picon face
Hi,

I'm working on a PIC16C84 programmer project. All programming commands
given in DS30189D documentation from Microchip are working fine except
for "BULK ERASE PROGRAM MEMORY" and "BULK ERASE DATA MEMORY" witch are
001001 and 001011 respectively.

For example, in chapter 2.3.1.8 (BULK ERASE PROGRAM MEMORY)
the doc says:
1- Do a "Load Data All 1's" command
2- Do a "Bulk Erase User Memory" command
3- Do a "Begin programming command"
4- Wait 10 ms to complete bulk erase

so, my programmer send:
1- 000010 0111111111111110
2- 001001
3- 001000
4- wait 10 ms

When I read back the chip, no location of the Prog Mem changed,
am'I missing something or is there some mistakes in DS30190D.
Any idea ?

Note: I can do the equivalent operation by writing 3FFF in all program
memory locations but this consumes much more time.

Thanks for your time and attention.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

1999\01\24@143725 by Nigel Goodwin

flavicon
picon face
In message <19990124162727.22841.qmailspamspamhotmail.com>, mahfoud rahal
<RemoveMEmahfoud_rahalspamBeGonespamRemoveMEHOTMAIL.COM> writes
{Quote hidden}

I could never get it to work either, eventually someone told me that you
needed to add an extra 'Begin Programming Command' before the 'Erase'
command - this would be at '1.5-' in your numbering scheme above.

This is the routine I use for totally erasing the chips, it's written in
Delphi/Turbo Pascal - same routine works in either. It should be fairly
easy to see what's going on.

Procedure EraseAll;
Var
 i : Byte;
Begin
 {Clear Protect fuse}
 ProgMode(POn);
 Command(LdConf);
 OutWord($3FFF);
 FOR i := 0 TO 6 Do
   Command(IncAdd);
 Command(1);
 Command(7);
 Command(BegPrg);
 Delay(PgmCfg[Current].Settings[DelayTime]);
 Command(1);
 Command(7);
 Command(BegPrg);
 Delay(PgmCfg[Current].Settings[DelayTime]);
 ProgMode(POff);

 {Clear Data memory}
 ProgMode(POn);
 Command(LdData);
 OutWord($3FFF);
 Command(BegPrg);
 Command(ErsDat);
 Command(BegPrg);
 Delay(PgmCfg[Current].Settings[DelayTime]);
 ProgMode(POff);

 {Clear Prog memory}
 ProgMode(POn);
 Command(LdProg);
 OutWord($3FFF);
 Command(BegPrg);
 Command(ErsPrg);
 Command(BegPrg);
 Delay(PgmCfg[Current].Settings[DelayTime]);
 ProgMode(POff);
End;
--

Nigel.

       /--------------------------------------------------------------\
       | Nigel Goodwin   | Internet : KILLspamnigelgspamBeGonespamlpilsley.demon.co.uk     |
       | Lower Pilsley   | Web Page : http://www.lpilsley.demon.co.uk |
       | Chesterfield    | Official site for Shin Ki Ju Jitsu         |
       | England         |                                            |
       \--------------------------------------------------------------/

1999\01\24@162955 by uter van ooijen / floortje hanneman

picon face
I had the same problem. I do not remember what the catch was, but there is
something missing in the uChip documentation and someone on the PicList
gave me the correct hint. Maybe this fragment from the firmware of my
programmer can help. Don't be scared by all the macro's, you can easily
spot the commands to the target PIC.
regards,
Wouter.

command_program_erase
; remove protection
move_const_via_w_to H'03', data1
move_const_via_w_to H'0F', data2
move_const_via_w_to H'0F', data3
move_const_via_w_to H'0F', data4
output_command_const H'00'
call output_data
move_const_via_w_to D'07', count1
increment_loop
call command_increment
decfsz count1, f
 goto increment_loop
output_command_const H'01'
output_command_const H'07'
output_command_const H'08'
call wait_for_target
output_command_const H'01'
output_command_const H'07'
; erase data memory
call reset_target
move_const_via_w_to H'00', data1
move_const_via_w_to H'00', data2
move_const_via_w_to H'0F', data3
move_const_via_w_to H'0F', data4
output_command_const H'03'
call output_data
output_command_const H'08'
call wait_for_target
output_command_const H'0B'
output_command_const H'08'
call wait_for_target
return


----------
{Quote hidden}

1999\01\24@174126 by Jim Robertson

flavicon
face
At 08:27 24/01/99 PST, you wrote:

He he, wish I had a dollar for everyone who has came up against this
problem.  I spent days on it myself.

These days just about everyone uses the "code protection killer" to do a
bulk erase as that seems to work without any hassle.

I do know of at least one person who has got the bulk erase stuff to
work but he has never spilt the beans as to the secret.

Jim



{Quote hidden}

--------------------------------------------------------
Jim Robertson
Email: spamBeGonenewfoundspampipeline.com.au

http://www.pipeline.com.au/users/newfound
--------------------------------------------------------

1999\01\25@075043 by Caisson

flavicon
face
> Van: mahfoud rahal <spam_OUTmahfoud_rahalSTOPspamspamHOTMAIL.COM>
> Aan: RemoveMEPICLISTspamspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Onderwerp: PIC 16C84 Bulk Erase
> Datum: zondag 24 januari 1999 17:27
>
> Hi,

Hello mahfoud,

{Quote hidden}

Yes.  It's a problem MicroChip does not have the solution for ... I talked
with the person who wrote the article & asked him to check it.  He
recommended to use the "Erase protected code" method.  You don't have to.
Just exchange steps 2 & 3.  It does not make sense, but it works.

> Note: I can do the equivalent operation by writing 3FFF in all program
> memory locations but this consumes much more time.

And it is counted as a full programming-cycle.  So a full
Erase-and-programming step will count as _two_ programming steps, chopping
the number of times you can re-program your EEPROM in HALF !

> Thanks for your time and attention.

You're welcome.

Greetz,
 Rudy Wieser


'How do I bulk erase a 16F84?'
1999\04\19@000723 by Thomas Vogels
flavicon
face
Hi, I'm currently hacking my own programmer hardware and software.
The last problem I ran into: I can't bulk erase my PIC 16F84.  The
sequence according to the manual is:

Send LOAD_DATA with all 1s, followed by BULK_ERASE and BEGIN_PROGRAM.
Then wait 10ms.

When I try this, nothing changes.  Since the rest works (i.e. I can
program, verify, read configuration), I have no clue what I'm doing
wrong.  Has anybody an idea of what could fail?  Does anyone ever use
this feature (maybe in combo with the code "unprotect" sequence)?

Thanks,  -tom


P.S.  Why yet another programmer?  On the hardware side, I wanted to
see my parallel port protected (at least thru at TTL transceiver).  On
a notebook, you've got only one and losing it is expensive.  On the
software side, I wanted a simple programmer that runs under Linux.
This entails:  no busy loops for timing, checked ioperms, etc.  While
I was at it, I wrapped a Tcl/Tk interface around my programmer
software.  Now I have something close to an IDE and it's close to
being released.  Anybody interested?

--
TakeThisOuTtovspamspamRemoveMEece.cmu.edu (Tom Vogels)   Tel: (412) 268-6638   FAX: -3204

1999\04\19@070618 by Caisson

flavicon
face
> Van: Thomas Vogels <KILLspamtovspamspamspam_OUTece.cmu.edu>
> Aan: PICLISTRemoveMEspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Onderwerp: How do I bulk erase a 16F84?
> Datum: maandag 19 april 1999 5:50

Hello Thomas,

{Quote hidden}

Yes, one of those Boo-boo's MicroChip made.  When I talked to the person
who made the doc's he could not tell me what the problem/solution was.
After some experimenting the solution appeared to be :  Just swap the
BULK_ERASE and BEGIN_PROGRAM commands.  It makes no sense, but it works.

Greetz,
 Rudy Wieser

1999\04\19@123044 by Nigel Goodwin

flavicon
picon face
In message <EraseME199904190350.XAA24032STOPspamspamRemoveMEinfiniti.ece.cmu.edu>, Thomas Vogels
<spam_OUTtovRemoveMEspamEraseMEECE.CMU.EDU> writes
>Hi, I'm currently hacking my own programmer hardware and software.
>The last problem I ran into: I can't bulk erase my PIC 16F84.  The
>sequence according to the manual is:
>
>Send LOAD_DATA with all 1s, followed by BULK_ERASE and BEGIN_PROGRAM.
>Then wait 10ms.
>
>When I try this, nothing changes.  Since the rest works (i.e. I can
>program, verify, read configuration), I have no clue what I'm doing
>wrong.  Has anybody an idea of what could fail?  Does anyone ever use
>this feature (maybe in combo with the code "unprotect" sequence)?

I never managed to get the MicroChip code to work either, however
someone in Belgium (I think) advised me what to do to make it work. Here
is the sample Delphi/Pascal code from my programmer.

Procedure EraseAll;
Var
 i : Byte;
Begin
 {Clear Protect fuse}
 ProgMode(POn);
 Command(LdConf);
 OutWord($3FFF);
 FOR i := 0 TO 6 Do
   Command(IncAdd);
 Command(1);
 Command(7);
 Command(BegPrg);
 Delay(ProgDelayTime);
 Command(1);
 Command(7);
 Command(BegPrg);
 Delay(ProgDelayTime);
 ProgMode(POff);

 {Clear Data memory}
 ProgMode(POn);
 Command(LdData);
 OutWord($3FFF);
 Command(BegPrg);
 Command(ErsDat);
 Command(BegPrg);
 Delay(ProgDelayTime);
 ProgMode(POff);

 {Clear Prog memory}
 ProgMode(POn);
 Command(LdProg);
 OutWord($3FFF);
 Command(BegPrg);
 Command(ErsPrg);
 Command(BegPrg);
 Delay(ProgDelayTime);
 ProgMode(POff);
End;

Basically I just add a second 'Begin programming' command after the
'Bulk Erase' command as well as before it.
--

Nigel.

       /--------------------------------------------------------------\
       | Nigel Goodwin   | Internet : TakeThisOuTnigelgRemoveMEspam@spam@lpilsley.demon.co.uk     |
       | Lower Pilsley   | Web Page : http://www.lpilsley.demon.co.uk |
       | Chesterfield    | Official site for Shin Ki and New Spirit   |
       | England         |                 Ju Jitsu                   |
       \--------------------------------------------------------------/

1999\04\19@141044 by David Tait

flavicon
picon face
See:

http://www.ee.oulu.fi/~lapi/KissPIC/erasepic.html

If don't have WWW/FTP facilities of your own and are looking for
somewhere to post your finished programmer, consider my PIC archive.

David
--
http://www.man.ac.uk/~mbhstdj


'[OT]: Anyone have troubles bulk erasing AT28HC256 '
2000\04\05@160059 by Peter L. Peres
picon face
Hi,

 I have a small question. I have looked on the net EVERYWHERE, and there
is nothing on the subject.

 I have a few AT28HC256 12LP 's (32k x 8bit EEPROM). I have the data
sheets and I have a circuit where they are supposed to work. I am unable
to bulk erase them and I cannot remove the write protection using their
algorythm. Is bulk erasure connected to protection ? I don't think so. The
data book says that bulk erasure does not affect the write protect status.
Is there any knowledge about 'improved' silicon etc ? Batch numbers ? The
chips are pulls (I got them cheap) and they have some code in them, and
the write protection is set.

 FYI the bulk erase procedure is only described as a timing diagram in
the datasheet, and appears nowhere in the text. I mean bulk erasure by
applying +12V to /OE then driving /CS low and then pulsing /WE low for
10ms or more. Not the software bulk erase procedure. Yes, I tried to
reverse the order of applying /CS and +12V (the diagram is not very clear
on this).

 Thank you for any answer or idea you might have on this,

       Peter


'[PICLIST] Bulk programming of 12c508A's'
2000\08\04@192217 by Erik Reikes
flavicon
face
Does anyone know of places that have automated bulk programming of SO8
PIC12C508A?

Preferably with a quick turn service ;).

Thanks.



Erik Reikes
Senior Software Engineer
Xsilogy, Inc.

EraseMEereikesRemoveMEspamxsilogy.com
ph : (858) 362-5003
fax : (858) 362-1367
cell : (858) 663-1206

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'[PICLIST] [PIC] Bulk Erase Program & Data Memory c'
2001\02\22@060405 by Andrei B.
picon face
I have built my own programmer for the PIC16F84 based on Microchip's
AN589 "A PC based development programmer" and written the programming
software for it based on Microchip's DS30262C "EEPROM memory
programming specifications".
All commands work just fine, except for the BULK ERASE PROGRAM MEMORY
and BULK ERASE DATA MEMORY.
Information in DS30262C is very confusing and there are also a lot of
typos in the section explaining the correct sequence of commands to
perform Bulk Erase.

Here is a detailed description of the problem.

On page 5 of DS30262C : "TABLE 2-1: COMMAND MAPPING FOR
PIC16F83/CR83/F84/CR84"
This I will refer to later.

On page 8 of DS30262C, section 2.3.1.9 :

==================================
2.3.1.9 BULK ERASE PROGRAM MEMORY
After this command is performed, the next program
command will erase the entire program memory.
To perform a bulk erase of the program memory, the following
sequence must be performed.
1. Do a tLoad Data All 1Fsv command.
2. Do a tBulk Erase User Memoryv command.
3. Do a tBegin Programmingv command.
4. Wait 10 ms to complete bulk erase.
If the address is pointing to the test program memory
(0x2000 - 0x200F), then both the user memory and the
test memory will be erased. The configuration word will
not be erased, even if the address is pointing to location
0x2007
For PIC16F84 perform the following commands:
1. Issue Command 2 (write program memory).
2. Send out 3FFFH data.
3. Issue Command 1 (toggle select even rows).
4. Issue Command 7 (toggle select even rows).
5. Issue Command 8 (begin programming)
6. Delay 10 ms
7. Issue Command 1 (toggle select even rows).
8. Issue Command 7 (toggle select even rows).

Note: If the device is code-protected
(PIC16F84A), the BULK ERASE com-mand
will not work.
====================================
My understanding of this portion of text is the following, please
correct me if I am wrong :

For PIC16F84 (code protection disabled), based on Table 2-1:
- Issue command LOAD DATA FOR PROGRAM MEMORY, DATA=0x3FFFh
- Issue command LOAD CONFIGURATION, DATA=???? (what is the meaning of
"toggle select even rows" here)
- Issue command READ DATA FROM DATA MEMORY (what is the meaning of
"toggle select even rows" here)
- Issue command BULK ERASE PROGRAM MEMORY. (what is the meaning of
"begin programming" here, if command 8 is something else?)
- Delay 10ms.
- Issue command LOAD CONFIGURATION, DATA=???? (what is the meaning of
"toggle select even rows" here)
- Issue command READ DATA FROM DATA MEMORY (what is the meaning of
"toggle select even rows" here)

This sequence of commands does not work.
This is what I can figure out from the text. Please clarify this for
me. Thank you.

Taking the command sequence from the first paragraph and performing:
- Issue command LOAD DATA FOR PROGRAM MEMORY, DATA=0x3FFFh
- Issue command BULK ERASE PROGRAM MEMORY
- Issue command BEGIN PROGRAMMING
- Delay 10ms

This sequence does not work either.
Note: I performed these commands as the first thing after entering
programming mode. Also, code protection is NOT active.


On page 9 of DS30262C, section 2.3.1.10:

===========================
2.3.1.10 BULK ERASE DATA MEMORY
To perform a bulk erase of the data memory, the follow-ing
sequence must be performed.
1. Do a tLoad Data All 1Fsv command.
2. Do a tBulk Erase Data Memoryv command.
3. Do a tBegin Programmingv command.
4. Wait 10 ms to complete bulk erase.
For PIC16F84 perform the data memory).
5. Send out 3FFFH data.
6. Issue Command 1 (toggle select even rows).
7. Issue Command 7 (toggle select even rows).
8. Issue Command 8 (begin data)
9. Delay 10 ms
10. Issue Command 1 (toggle select even rows).
Issue Command 7 (toggle select even rows).    // should this be line
11?

Note: All BULK ERASE operations must take
place at 4.5 to 5.5 VDD range.
==============================

This is even more confusing. The numbering of lines continues, but in
the previous section, when taking PIC16F84 as a separate case, the
numbering restarts from 1.

I cannot understand what commands to perform here :
- Issue command ??????????, DATA=0x3FFFh
- Issue command LOAD CONFIGURATION, DATA=???? (what is the meaning of
"toggle select even rows" here)
- Issue command READ DATA FROM DATA MEMORY (what is the meaning of
"toggle select even rows" here)
- Issue command BULK ERASE PROGRAM MEMORY (this is command 8 in Table
2-1. Why not BULK ERASE DATA MEMORY? what is the meaning of "begin
data" ?)
- Delay 10ms
- Issue command LOAD CONFIGURATION, DATA=???? (what is the meaning of
"toggle select even rows" here)
- Issue command READ DATA FROM DATA MEMORY (what is the meaning of
"toggle select even rows" here)

This section seems incomplete and with errors, maybe not just typos.

Considering the first paragraph, lines numbered 1 through 4:

- Issue command LOAD DATA FROM DATA MEMORY, DATA=0x3FFFh (is it DATA or
PROGRAM MEMORY, it is not clear)
- Issue command BULK ERASE DATA MEMORY
- Issue BEGIN PROGRAMMING
- Delay 10ms

This sequence does not work either.

Note: All programming operations were performed while supply of the
device was 4.97V-4.99V, which was monitored continuosly.

Note: All other commands work properly as described in this document
and I have succesfully programmed several devices with this programmer
and programming software.
It has been developed under FreePascal 1.04 (DOS Go32v2) and it will be
released under the GNU Public License version 2 as soon as I can make
these commands to work.
It will be available at http://members.tripod.com/andrei_b.


References used for this development:

- PIC16F84 datasheet
- PIC16F84A datasheet
- PIC16C84 datasheet
- AN 589 - A PC based development programmer
- DS30262C - EEPROM Memory Programming Specification PIC16F8XX

Thank you in advance for your help.

Andrei Boros aka Andrix.




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2001\02\22@135015 by Nigel Goodwin

flavicon
face
In message <spam20010222105307.93898.qmail.....spamspamweb10803.mail.yahoo.com>, Andrei
B. <andrixnetspam_OUTspam@spam@YAHOO.COM> writes
> I have built my own programmer for the PIC16F84 based on Microchip's
>AN589 "A PC based development programmer" and written the programming
>software for it based on Microchip's DS30262C "EEPROM memory
>programming specifications".
> All commands work just fine, except for the BULK ERASE PROGRAM MEMORY
>and BULK ERASE DATA MEMORY.
> Information in DS30262C is very confusing and there are also a lot of
>typos in the section explaining the correct sequence of commands to
>perform Bulk Erase.

This has always caused lots of problems, it just doesn't seem to work as
MicroChip state in their documentation. This is the Delphi routine I use
in my programmer, it was developed from lots of tips and advice from
this list!. Even if you don't read Delphi (Pascal), it's easy to
understand, the Progmode() procedure switches the PIC to programming
mode, depending on the value passed. Command() sends a command to the
PIC, OutWord() sends 14 bit data, and Delay() is a routine to wait a
specified number of milli-seconds. The command values passed use the
names given in the datasheet (LdConf etc.).

Procedure EraseAll;
Var
 i : Byte;
Begin
 {Clear Protect fuse}
 ProgMode(POn);
 Command(LdConf);
 OutWord($3FFF); {value to reset memory to}
 FOR i := 0 TO 6 Do
   Command(IncAdd);
 Command(1);
 Command(7);
 Command(BegPrg);
 Delay(ProgDelayTime);
 Command(1);
 Command(7);
 ProgMode(POff);

 {Clear Program memory}
 ProgMode(POn);
 Command(LdProg);
 OutWord($3FFF);
 Command(BegPrg);
 Command(ErsPrg);
 Command(BegPrg);
 Delay(ProgDelayTime);
 ProgMode(POff);

 {Clear Data memory}
 ProgMode(POn);
 Command(LdData);
 OutWord($3FFF);
 Command(1);
 Command(7);
 Command(BegPrg);
 Delay(ProgDelayTime);
 Command(1);
 Command(7);
 ProgMode(POff);
End;

--

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2001\02\22@141741 by uter van ooijen & floortje hanneman

picon face
I recall having similar problems when I was writing my programmer based on
the uChip documentation, which indeed is wrong at this point. Someone on the
piclist helped me out (I don't rememer his name), so maybe I can pass on the
magic. I do not recall the correct command sequence itself, but the erase
fragment in my WISP programmer is shown below. It uses some weird macro's,
but I think you will be able to deduct the correct command sequence. When
you have done so, do not forget to post it on picfaq/techref!
Wouter

command_program_erase
; remove protection
move_const_via_w_to H'03', data1
move_const_via_w_to H'0F', data2
move_const_via_w_to H'0F', data3
move_const_via_w_to H'0F', data4
output_command_const H'00'
call output_data
move_const_via_w_to D'07', count1
increment_loop
call command_increment
decfsz count1, f
 goto increment_loop
output_command_const H'01'
output_command_const H'07'
output_command_const H'08'
call wait_for_target
output_command_const H'01'
output_command_const H'07'
; erase data memory
call reset_target
move_const_via_w_to H'00', data1
move_const_via_w_to H'00', data2
move_const_via_w_to H'0F', data3
move_const_via_w_to H'0F', data4
output_command_const H'03'
call output_data
output_command_const H'08'
call wait_for_target
output_command_const H'0B'
output_command_const H'08'
call wait_for_target
return

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'[PIC]: Bulk Erase Program & Data Memory commands'
2001\02\23@025831 by Andrei B.

picon face
> Procedure EraseAll;
> Var
>   i : Byte;
> Begin
>   {Clear Protect fuse}
>   ProgMode(POn);
>   Command(LdConf);
>   OutWord($3FFF); {value to reset memory to}
>   FOR i := 0 TO 6 Do
>     Command(IncAdd);
>   Command(1);
>   Command(7);
>   Command(BegPrg);
>   Delay(ProgDelayTime);
>   Command(1);
>   Command(7);
>   ProgMode(POff);

Here you do a "Load Configuration Word" without incrementing to
address $2007? This is how I understood it from the datasheet. My
programmer when writing the configuration word increments to $2007 and
writes it with LoadConfig, then reads it back correctly.

The one thing I've been unable to do is to read address $2006 where
suposedly is the Device ID as specified in the EEPROM programming
specs. However, I read $0000 there...

Looks like I'll have to modify my Command() routine, because it only
accepts the commands described in table 2-1 in the specs.

{Quote hidden}

Thank you for your answer and I'll try it as soon as I get home.


=====
ing. Andrei Boros
Centrul pt. Tehnologia Informatiei
Societatea Romana de Radiodifuziune

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2001\02\23@133700 by jamesnewton

picon face
source= http://www.piclist.com/postbot.asp?id=piclist\2001\02\22\141741a

Wouter said:
"It uses some weird macro's, but I think you will be able to deduct the
correct command sequence. When you have done so, do not forget to post it on
picfaq/techref!"

I've already linked to this thread from the device programmers page...
...look at the bottom. If you click on the link, you will see all the posts
on this thread in the right hand frame.

So you can just reply to this message with your result and people will be
able to find it...

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2001\02\23@172459 by Nigel Goodwin

flavicon
face
In message <EraseME20010223075858.34632.qmail@spam@spam@spam@web10807.mail.yahoo.com>, Andrei
B. <@spam@andrixnetspamspamKILLspamYAHOO.COM> writes
> Here you do a "Load Configuration Word" without incrementing to
>address $2007? This is how I understood it from the datasheet. My
>programmer when writing the configuration word increments to $2007 and
>writes it with LoadConfig, then reads it back correctly.

Basically it works, after lots of changes and help from the PICList, so
I'm happy to use it :-). The datasheet is wrong in many respects, so you
have to 'suck it and see'.
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2001\02\23@175056 by Mike Mansheim

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face
>Basically it works, after lots of changes and help from the PICList, so
>I'm happy to use it :-). The datasheet is wrong in many respects, so you
>have to 'suck it and see'.

Just curious:  does this discussion of the datasheet being wrong for
the bulk erase command sequence apply only to the F84?  Or are the
specs for the F87x's also wrong?

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2001\02\23@180258 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
>
> >Basically it works, after lots of changes and help from the PICList, so
> >I'm happy to use it :-). The datasheet is wrong in many respects, so you
> >have to 'suck it and see'.
>
> Just curious:  does this discussion of the datasheet being wrong for
> the bulk erase command sequence apply only to the F84?  Or are the
> specs for the F87x's also wrong?

The bulk erase algorithm specified in the 16F87X programming specification
document works as advertised. I integrated into Brian Lane's picprg 2.2 for
Linux.

I currently have on my short list building a cloner/programmer for Wouter's
wloader firmware so that a wloaded chip can clone itself. I plan to use the
same algorithm since it worked in the picprg 2.2.

BAJ

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2001\02\23@181134 by Dan Larson

flavicon
face
I just had a thought on this "bulk erase" stuff...

What would happen if you removed power to the device before it had
a chance to finish erasing all locations ? Would it be possible to
get the code protect fuse erased without completely erasing all
program locations ?

It was two years ago when I updated my programmer software for the
new flash parts and I remember screwing around with it to get it to
work. IIRC, the 16F84 algorithm needed tweaking to work with the new
parts. The double "BEGIN_PROGRAMMING" commands just don't make sense,
but they *are* needed.

Yes, the datasheet is very cryptic, but you *can* sort of interpret
it in a strange way to be correct. IMHO, they purposely obfuscate the
bulk erase command, since the interpretation for the 16f87x bulk erase
was still not straight forward. Perhaps it *is* possible to get a partial
erase and reveal protected code. It might be one explanation as to why
the datasheet appears to be "wrong". Maybe I'm way off on this too. Like
I said, it was 2 years ago that I worked on this....

Dan

On Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:44:36 -0600, Mike Mansheim wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2001\02\24@021639 by Nigel Goodwin

flavicon
face
In message <RemoveMEOF0ED49EF3.E28420CB-ON862569FC.007CBA88KILLspamspamRemoveMEgraco.com>, Mike
Mansheim <TakeThisOuTMichael_J_MansheimspamGRACO.COM> writes
>>Basically it works, after lots of changes and help from the PICList, so
>>I'm happy to use it :-). The datasheet is wrong in many respects, so you
>>have to 'suck it and see'.
>
>Just curious:  does this discussion of the datasheet being wrong for
>the bulk erase command sequence apply only to the F84?  Or are the
>specs for the F87x's also wrong?

I can't say I ever really paid much attention, the routine I posted
works for the F87x's as well, and the spec sheet didn't seem to make a
great deal of sense (as usual).
--

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'[OT]: LCDs in bulk 16x1, 16x2'
2002\04\14@065722 by Peter Crowcroft
flavicon
face
I can supply LCDs Truly brand made in China.

16x2 no b/l
16x2  with b/l
16x1 no b/l


In lots of 50 / 1 tray can sell to you at
16x2  with b/l  $4.50
16x2  no b/l    $4.00
16x1  no b/l    $3.10
plus postage.


In lots of 100 / 2 trays or more can sell to you at
16x2  with b/l  $4.10
16x2  no b/l    $3.60
16x1  no b/l    $2.60
plus postage.


Full specifications can be downloaded from

http://kitsrus.com/zip/lcd16x2_nobl.zip

http://kitsrus.com/zip/lcd16x2_bl.zip

http://kitsrus.com/zip/lcd16x1_nobl.zip



They all have the 16 pads in the top left hand side/corner. For the no b/l
pins 15 and 16 are NC.

Leadtime may be up to 4 weeks.


2. Screws and nuts to support these LCDs are also available. This consists
of 2 sets of 2.6mm x 18mm nuts and screws (3 nuts and 1 screw for each of
two corners) as stand-offs.  See

http://kitsrus.com/jpg/lcd_1.jpg

http://kitsrus.com/jpg/lcd_2.jpg


These secure the LCD 11mm off the base PCB.

Also included is a 16 pin M/F connector set to connect the LCD from the LCD
to the base PCB.

Price $0.40.set




regards,

Peter Crowcroft
           DIY Electronics (HK) Ltd
     PO Box 88458, Sham Shui Po, Hong Kong
Factory: voice 852-2304 2250    Fax: 852-2729 1400
        M/F, 97 Fuk Wa Street, Sham Shui Po
Home: voice 852-2720 0255          Mobile: 6273 2049
Web:  http://kitsrus.com           Email: spampeterspamkitsrus.com
     Yahoo Messenger  'peter5999'  with webcam
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'[EE]: Piezo Gyro Bulk Buy Anyone?'
2002\06\20@071752 by Scott Stephens
picon face
Is anyone intested in purchasing small quantities of Tokin Piezo Gyros for
(tentative) $35/ea. ? These are sensors used to sense rotation rate, and are
found in devices to stabilize video camera images and robots.

http://www.nec-tokin.net/now/nt-am/pdf_dl/sensors.pdf pg 28 GC-16D

This is not for my profit (there isn't any!) but as a convenience for robot
and sensor enthusiasts. If I get enough interest, I'll set up a web form and
find a credit card processor. BTW got any recomendations?

Reply to me at scottxsSTOPspamspamattbi.com with subject "TOKIN GYRO" if you are. No
need to spam the list.

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2002\06\20@085716 by M. Adam Davis

flavicon
face
These only detect rotation in one axis, and can only detect up to
90degrees per second, right?

So for a full 3 axis sensor I'd need 3 of them?

-Adam

Scott Stephens wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2002\06\20@233714 by Scott Stephens

picon face
From: M. Adam Davis <KILLspamadampicspam_OUTspamUBASICS.COM>
Subject: Re: [EE]: Piezo Gyro Bulk Buy Anyone?


An article with a schematic:

www.e-insite.net/ednmag/index.asp?layout=article&articleId=CA46375&pu
bdate=12/09/1999


>These only detect rotation in one axis
...
>So for a full 3 axis sensor I'd need 3 of them?

That is correct, but in many applications you only need two to stabilize a
couple axis, or maybe even one. And you might want to buy a spare, from what
I've read from heli & airplane hobbyists, they can be fragile, if not shock
mounted in foam. But nothing could save it from my flying skillz (or lack
thereof)!

>and can only detect up to
>90degrees per second, right?

Uh, thats what the datasheet specs. But the frequency response specs 100Hz
(flat at 10 Hz). Which means if your not trying to be agile like a bat, but
just trying to maintain stability, it may do? My crude DIY gyro (at
http://home.attbi.com/~scottxs/ ) detects rapid rates, but not low ones.

Scott


-Adam

Scott Stephens wrote:

>Is anyone intested in purchasing small quantities of Tokin Piezo Gyros for
>(tentative) $35/ea. ? These are sensors used to sense rotation rate, and
are
>found in devices to stabilize video camera images and robots.
>
>http://www.nec-tokin.net/now/nt-am/pdf_dl/sensors.pdf pg 28 GC-16D
>
>This is not for my profit (there isn't any!) but as a convenience for robot
>and sensor enthusiasts. If I get enough interest, I'll set up a web form
and
>find a credit card processor. BTW got any recomendations?
>
>Reply to me at spam_OUTscottxsspamTakeThisOuTattbi.com with subject "TOKIN GYRO" if you are. No
>need to spam the list.

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'[PIC]: Automatic bulk programmer'
2002\07\22@031254 by Roman Black
flavicon
face
Recently we've been programming PICs by the 100, which
is a PITA with a picstart. :o)

I know production programmers are available, but since
the main chips we use (16c505) program in a few seconds,
even using a gang programmer will not save much time
because of the time to insert 10 chips into 10 sockets,
then remove them again. There is just as much labour
needed and not much time saved.

I have an idea for a auto-feeder programmer I would like
to bounce off the list. :o)

* The DIP chips are supplied in a standard plastic "tube".

* Tube is held vertically in the machine, so chips are gravity
fed out the bottom one by one.

* The chip can only fall one chip length, vertically, into
a very simple jig, with a solenoid "gate" at the bottom stopping
it falling any further.

* The chip is secure enough in the jig that a second solenoid
clamps 5 sharp "pins" onto the appropriate legs, 2 on one
side of the chip and 3 on the other, giving Vdd,Vss,Vpp,SDA,SCL.
This is only 2 simple mechanical levers and one solenoid.

* Programming is automatic, and after programming is complete
the pins are released, the bottom solenoid "gate" opens and the
chip simply falls into a tray, finished. The gate solenoid is
fast with an opto sensor, to eject only one chip. Another and
probably better option is a simple side ejector mechanism that
throws the chip out one side, and gravity feeds in the next chip.

* If a program error occurs, the units beeps etc, and operator
removes the suspect chip.

I think this device could be built at quite low cost, I have
a few solenoids in my junk box. Each tube of fresh PICs is simply
inserted, press the start button, and voila 30 programmed chips
sitting in the tray.
Any suggestions?? :o)
-Roman

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2002\07\22@032948 by lexandre_Guimar=E3es?=

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Hi, Roman

> * Tube is held vertically in the machine, so chips are gravity
> fed out the bottom one by one.

   45 degress can give you better results. Some tubes have enough space for
the chip to jam if held vertical.

> * The chip can only fall one chip length, vertically, into
> a very simple jig, with a solenoid "gate" at the bottom stopping
> it falling any further.

   Should work fine...

> * The chip is secure enough in the jig that a second solenoid
> clamps 5 sharp "pins" onto the appropriate legs, 2 on one
> side of the chip and 3 on the other, giving Vdd,Vss,Vpp,SDA,SCL.
> This is only 2 simple mechanical levers and one solenoid.

   A motor and spring loaded "bed of nails" contacts will give more
reliable connections without the impact of the solenoid.

> * Programming is automatic, and after programming is complete
> the pins are released, the bottom solenoid "gate" opens and the
> chip simply falls into a tray, finished. The gate solenoid is
> fast with an opto sensor, to eject only one chip. Another and
> probably better option is a simple side ejector mechanism that
> throws the chip out one side, and gravity feeds in the next chip.

   You can use another tube and a second solenoid to make sure just one
chip fall out.

> I think this device could be built at quite low cost, I have
> a few solenoids in my junk box. Each tube of fresh PICs is simply
> inserted, press the start button, and voila 30 programmed chips
> sitting in the tray.
> Any suggestions?? :o)

   More ??? :-) Please send us some pictures when you are done. I am
already sick and tired of seing my production personal programming some
12c508's one by one...

Best regards,
Alexandre Guimaraes

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2002\07\22@034904 by Roman Black

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Thanks for the quick response Alexandre! :o)
My partner in programming has DEMANDED that if
I build this it MUST do the "squishing" of the pins as mentioned in a previous thread. The hand squisher
we have is still slow and hurts her little hands. :o)

So the design spec is now:
* tube not quite vertical (angle to be tested)
* one solenoid to release a chip from tube
* motor/screw thread operated CRUSHER that squishes
 the pins AND provides contacts for programming.
* another solenoid to drop the finished chip

I've been roughing up some designs on paper, and
trying to work out if I can build it to do all narrow
DIP packages, from 8 pin to 28 pin, ie 12c509, 16c505,
F84, F628, F876 etc. With two solenoids and one
motorised crusher it should be fairly easy.

Some fine points of design are the possibility of dual
eject system, ie good chips and failed chips end up in
different trays.
Another is to design a good way of having one standard
crusher, but with attachable spike pins to suit the
different packages. Needs to be easy to adapt from
one package to another, ie simply unscrew the pins
assembly from each side of the crusher.
-Roman


Alexandre Guimarães wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2002\07\22@053056 by Mircea Chiriciuc

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<Another is to design a good way of having one standard
<crusher, but with attachable spike pins to suit the
<different packages. Needs to be easy to adapt from
<one package to another, ie simply unscrew the pins
<assembly from each side of the crusher.

Since crush pressure is involved and the pressure is relativelly low you
could use a simple piece of  PCB with golden contacts on each side of the
crusher to provide the programming contacts. You can easily change the PCB
for every DIP by creating a slide in mountig for the adapter PCB and an
connector on the bottoms of each crusher side.
Because of my pour english I have attached a drawing.

Success,
Mircea Chiriciuc
EMCO INVEST

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2002\07\22@053923 by Mircea Chiriciuc

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part 1 68 bytes content-type:text/plain; (decoded 7bit)

Sorry, here is the attachement.


part 2 1369 bytes content-type:image/gif; (decode)


part 3 144 bytes
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2002\07\22@065326 by Sean Alcorn (SYD)

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Roman,

If you are only program "100s" at a time, check out;
http://www.mannincontrol.com/prog/index.html

It's a production quality programmer, and we use them to program 1000s of
chips at a time.

Graham at Mannin Control is also great to deal with.

Regards,

Sean

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2002\07\22@095042 by M. Adam Davis

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Awhile ago someone else on the list drew up plans for a simple
programmer like that, except it was based on a rotating wheel.

The wheel is slotted so the chip falls into it with pins on either side.
It spins in the direction opposite the pins so the pins can run by a
set of programming contacts, past a crusher and into another tube (or a
tray, or whatever)

It wouldn't be hard to adapt that with a gate (or even a moving ramp)
that puts the chip at the bottom into the good or bad bin.

Furthermore a wheel can hold and program several chips at once - load 6
chips, move them into the 6 programmer positions, program, spit them all
out while loading the next six.

I suspect a rotating wheel is going to be easier (mechanically) to
manage that a moving carriage.  A simple motor with opto sensing will
tell you what position the wheel is in.

You add another plate to the wheel to increase the thickness for wide
dips, or (better yet) create different wheels for different chips (to
account for chip length).

This method would reauire only one moving part and one motor at its
simplest.  Add a solenoid to gate the outgoing chips into proper bins.

-Adam

Roman Black wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2002\07\22@104704 by Roman Black

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Sean Alcorn (SYD) wrote:
>
> Roman,
>
> If you are only program "100s" at a time, check out;
> http://www.mannincontrol.com/prog/index.html
>
> It's a production quality programmer, and we use them to program 1000s of
> chips at a time.


Hi Sean, please don't take offence but that programmer
only does one chip at a time. The greatest cost in
programming is operator labour, ie insert a chip(s)
wait, remove chip(s).

What i'm proposing will outperform a 30-gang unit that
does 30 at a time, which would still require
inserting/removing 30 chips into zif sockets, which is
a lot of work. Auto feed is the only answer, ie; insert
tube of 30 chips, come back later and 30 chips are
programmed.
-Roman

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2002\07\22@111327 by Roman Black

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I don't remember that. But using a wheel was the very
first thing that came to mind, and the very first thing
I eliminated from the design. :o)

You need 2 solenoids to give good release from the tube,
one gate to release the bottom chip and one holder for
all the chips above. Then you need another solenoid for
the bottom gate to drop the finished chip.
You still need a crusher to program the chip and crush
the legs.
Gravity-fed in a straight line eliminates all need for
a wheel (which is very fussy to make) and uses the same
number of feed solenoids etc.

There is no moving carriage needed, the chip falls down
vertically, is crushed/programmed, and drops out the bottom.
Like you mentioned it would be viable to program more than
one chip at a time, by stacking 2 or 3 etc vertically
where they are crushed/programmed in one movement. BUT
I think it not necessary, the total time to program is
much less important than the elimination of operator
labour, at least in our case.

Does anyone have a fully auto-fed programmer machine
that takes tubes of chips and spits them out programmed?
Machines like that must cost $10k etc.
-Roman



M. Adam Davis wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2002\07\22@111753 by Roman Black

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Hi Mircea, I love this idea! I have some 0.1" spaced
edge connectors which are gold plated pcb, can mount one
on each side of the crusher clamps. Then maybe solder
a line of 0.1" header pins on each side, so for different
chips it just needs one plug on each side. Brilliant. :o)
-Roman


Mircea Chiriciuc wrote:
> Since crush pressure is involved and the pressure is relativelly low you
> could use a simple piece of  PCB with golden contacts on each side of the
> crusher to provide the programming contacts.>
>
>     ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
>                               Name: crusher.gif
>                Part 1.2       Type: GIF Image (image/gif)
>                           Encoding: base64

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2002\07\22@112004 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 05:10 PM 7/22/02 +1000, you wrote:

>I think this device could be built at quite low cost, I have
>a few solenoids in my junk box. Each tube of fresh PICs is simply
>inserted, press the start button, and voila 30 programmed chips
>sitting in the tray.
>Any suggestions?? :o)

While I'd love to see the pictures of this thing working, and I'm
sure you could do it, why not just get them programmed by your
distributor? IME they do it cheap when you buy the chips from them
(a value-added service)

(I know, 'boo', 'hiss' ... )

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
spam_OUTspeffTakeThisOuTspamEraseMEinterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com
9/11 United we Stand

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2002\07\22@113953 by Roman Black

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Spehro Pefhany wrote:
>
> At 05:10 PM 7/22/02 +1000, you wrote:
>
> >I think this device could be built at quite low cost, I have
> >a few solenoids in my junk box. Each tube of fresh PICs is simply
> >inserted, press the start button, and voila 30 programmed chips
> >sitting in the tray.
> >Any suggestions?? :o)
>
> While I'd love to see the pictures of this thing working, and I'm
> sure you could do it, why not just get them programmed by your
> distributor? IME they do it cheap when you buy the chips from them
> (a value-added service)
>
> (I know, 'boo', 'hiss' ... )


Sure that's very sensible for large runs, but the
bulk of what I do is 25 of this, 50 of that, 100
of the other. The ideal quantities for a machine
like that. Heck if I just had to program 5 chips,
chuck them in and press one button. :o)
-Roman

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2002\07\22@133415 by Paul Hutchinson

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> -----Original Message-----
> [EraseMEPICLISTspamBeGonespamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Roman Black
> Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 11:11 AM
> Subject: Re: [PIC]: Automatic bulk programmer
<SNIP>
> Does anyone have a fully auto-fed programmer machine
> that takes tubes of chips and spits them out programmed?
> Machines like that must cost $10k etc.
> -Roman

These companies make them some of the units even print and apply labels at
the same time.
http://www.dataio.com/
http://www.bpmicro.com/

It was quite a while ago that I checked into these machines but IIRC they
cost closer to $100K

Paul

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2002\07\22@200820 by Tony Nixon

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part 1 287 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset=us-ascii (decoded 7bit)

Roman Black wrote:

> I have an idea for a auto-feeder programmer I would like
> to bounce off the list. :o)

How about something cheap like this.


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Best regards

Tony

mICros
http://www.bubblesoftonline.com
RemoveMEsalesspamBeGonespamspambubblesoftonline.com


part 2 4677 bytes content-type:image/gif; name=Prog.gif (decode)


part 3 144 bytes
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2002\07\22@203403 by Brendan Moran

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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Look out! I have comments, and I know how to use them!!

- {Original Message removed}

2002\07\22@204013 by Sean Alcorn (SYD)

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Hi Roman,

> Hi Sean, please don't take offence but that programmer
> only does one chip at a time.

None taken. We have two of these machines, and of course I have noticed they
only do one at a time.

> The greatest cost in programming is operator labour, ie insert a chip(s)
> wait, remove chip(s).

Yes. I understand this. However this machine is a huge step up from a
PICStart+ - the operator need not have any interaction with a PC. They
simply insert the chip that is displayed on the LCD - ie "PIC12C508-04E/P"
and press a button.

The unit will program, do a low verify, high verify, burn the fuses and beep
when ready. The operator needs to only open a lever, remove the programmed
chip, replace with a new chip, close the lever and press a button. We are
finding that a good operator can program around 100+ chips in an hour.

> What i'm proposing will outperform a 30-gang unit that
> does 30 at a time, which would still require
> inserting/removing 30 chips into zif sockets, which is
> a lot of work. Auto feed is the only answer, ie; insert
> tube of 30 chips, come back later and 30 chips are
> programmed.

Yes. I understand, and it's a great idea. I was just suggesting what might
be perhaps an interim step for you.

Cheers,

Sean

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2002\07\23@050047 by Vasile Surducan

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> Roman Black wrote:
>
> >Recently we've been programming PICs by the 100, which
> >is a PITA with a picstart. :o)
> >
  oh, this lazyess...  :o)


> >
> >* The DIP chips are supplied in a standard plastic "tube".
>
  yes

>
> >* Tube is held vertically in the machine, so chips are gravity
> >fed out the bottom one by one.
> >
  no, horizontally, the tube have already holes coresponding with
 Vcc, Vpp, SCK, SD, Gnd for a atandard package ( PDIP )
 Stoppers on both tube ends avoid PIC movement inside the tube. A stepper
is moving linear the whole tube ( could be a linear stepper, but a
standard one and an old
fashion 5inch FDD style for head movement ( using steel cable ).
Positioning mechanism for PICs alignement using digitaly encoder or
optical device.
Pin programmer connector using gold plate pin with internal bow ( the same
as used in laptops for battery connecting ) driven by a solenoid as you
said.

regards, Vasile

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2002\07\23@064904 by Roman Black

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Tony Nixon wrote:
>
> Roman Black wrote:
>
> > I have an idea for a auto-feeder programmer I would like
> > to bounce off the list. :o)
>
> How about something cheap like this.
>  [Image]


That is almost exactly what I had pictured Tony!
Aussie engineers unite! :o)

I have roughed up some paper drafts, some details:

* Use a top gate solenoid too, at the cost of one more
solenoid you get to use the device for all size chips,
8,14,18,28 etc.

* 45 degrees is not enough, i've tested and found about
15 degrees from vertical is about best for feeding.

* I measured the "crush" pressure of the pins on my digital
scales, this is >4kg. Probably about 6kg needed to do a
good reliable crush. Most solenoids won't do this, so a
simple "vice" style clamp with motor, screw thread, and
2 limit switches will do +6kg easy.

* with high crush pressures you need a top and bottom
chip guide, as the chip tends to crush away from the
base. So the chip plastic needs to be held firmly between
2 solid pieces, with just enough clearance for gravity feed.
I also agree with your "program A" clamp, I think it is
worth one solenoid to clamp the chip well before the
crush is started.

* After crush the chip legs have some small elasticity,
just enough to crush onto a 1/4" thich acrylic guide,
then they spring out just enough to still slide easily
on the guide to fall out. Couldn't ask for more. :o)
-Roman

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2002\07\23@073349 by Roman Black

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Brendan Moran wrote:

> Here's how (rotary) it works:
> You have a tube which is aligned to the wheel axially.  There is one
> (or more) axial slot in the wheel that is equal in depth to the
> length of a PIC, and equal in width to the height of a PIC body.  The
> wheel is made of non-conductive material.  There is a retaining
> device, only slightly larger than the wheel that is mounted around
> the wheel, along the travel of the PIC.  The PIC falls, using
> gravity, into the slot, such that its pins stick back beyond the
> slot, in the direction opposite that of the rotation of the wheel.

I'm with you, this removes the need for top feed
solenoids as the wheel acts as a feed cam to only let
the chip feed when the wheel is in the right position.
It will be fiddly and require wheel cam profiling
to get the feed just right.

> The crusher is a non-moving or sprung component.  The PIC moves past
> it, which squishes the pins against the wheel.  The wheel stops at
> the crusher position while the PIC is programmed.

This is where the wheel idea has problems. The crush
pressure is quite considerable, +4kg from the side, but
to push the chip into a v-shaped groove to crush is still
over 3kg measured by my crude test. Assuming your wheel
is 2 inch radius this is 7lbs @ 2 inches, give it 100%
overhead for stepper reliability and you get 28 lb @ 1
inch or 448 oz/in stepper motor needed. You will need
gearing on the stepper, probably about 10:1 even with
a larger stepper. Using rubber rollers on the side of
the main wheel reduces this by maybe half, but still
requires a large stepper with gearing, ie toothed belt
+ 2 pulleys.

Next for programming, the wheel system is much harder
to clamp the pins onto the PIC pins, considering it
has to rotate. The obvious solution is to have a motor
driven clamp, but if you have a motor driven clamp you
really don't need the wheel. :o)


>  The wheel, having
> completed the PIC programming phase, rotates more, to the opposite
> gravitational polarity, as it were, and dumps the PIC out into a bin
> or tube.

Yep, with the wheel you can eliminate the bottom gate
and have auto dumping. BUT the linear feed system is
much better if you want to feed the chips back into
a chip tube. :o)

{Quote hidden}

But you need a large precise wheel, quite hard to make
with 4 precise PIC slots that have to feed and position
perfectly. Easier with just one PIC slot per wheel,
you only have to fiddle with one profile. But you still
need stepper gearing, with pulleys and belts, etc to
give necessary torque.

The thing that really puts me off the wheel is that you
need to make one wheel for each chip size you do, ie
8,14,18,28 pins etc, where the linear feed design will
feed any chip in that width, and doesn't need stepper
driver or stepper positioning, just "open gate and chip
falls in".
-Roman

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2002\07\23@081035 by M. Adam Davis

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Roman Black wrote:

>* 45 degrees is not enough, i've tested and found about
>15 degrees from vertical is about best for feeding.
>
>
You might consider 15 degrees from horizontal with a vibratory feeder -
much less chance of a chip falling to far (stuck at the top for awhile)
and destroying some bonding wires or bending some pins, not to mention
the chips you're dropping into the bottom tube.

A little more complex, perhaps, but there's probably a really good
reason that the rest of the industry continues to do it this way.

-Adam

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2002\07\23@081047 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
It seems to me that what is being asked for could be simplified still
further.

If the input tube is on a slope so the chips will slide out nicely, then how
about the stop being a motor/wheel with a spongy rubber tyre, which is close
enough to the runner that the chip cannot slide under it.

To load chip into programmer start wheel slowly so it pushes chip through.
Using opto sensor, sense when chip leaves wheel, which leaves following chip
still trapped under wheel - no calibration requirements between 8 pin and 28
pin chips :))

Stepper motor probably best device for this use. To minimise problems it may
be worth setting the number of steps that it rotates before deciding there
is an error somewhere, or tube is empty, hence sounding operator reload
signal.

Chip proceeds to continue to slide down runner until reaching stop. At this
point runner is a piece of paxolin/tufnol/fibreglass or similar insulating
material, still on same angle as input tube - well no-one specifies that the
programming station has to be level!.

When chip stops, then clamps come in from sides onto pins. Clamps carry all
contacts to keep runner smooth so sliding chip does not snag during entry
and exit of programming area. After programming, clamps open, and stop lifts
allowing chip to carry on sliding into deposit tube.

Stop returns to stop position, and then motor releases next chip.

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2002\07\23@131626 by Brendan Moran

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> I'm with you, this removes the need for top feed
> solenoids as the wheel acts as a feed cam to only let
> the chip feed when the wheel is in the right position.
> It will be fiddly and require wheel cam profiling
> to get the feed just right.

I don't think it would.  Just round your edges a bit :)
If a second chip falls in a little, it will just get pushed back up.

{Quote hidden}

You may be quite right on this one, but it's worth a closer look, I
think.

> Next for programming, the wheel system is much harder
> to clamp the pins onto the PIC pins, considering it
> has to rotate. The obvious solution is to have a motor
> driven clamp, but if you have a motor driven clamp you
> really don't need the wheel. :o)

Once again, I think you've missed something.  I was suggesting again
that you use the .1" edge connector as the crusher.  Place an opto
sensor near the wheel, and stop it when the slot gets to the crusher
point, where programming will occur.

> >  The wheel, having
> > completed the PIC programming phase, rotates more, to the
> > opposite gravitational polarity, as it were, and dumps the PIC
> > out into a bin or tube.
>
> Yep, with the wheel you can eliminate the bottom gate
> and have auto dumping. BUT the linear feed system is
> much better if you want to feed the chips back into
> a chip tube. :o)

All you need is a funnel-like device on the output.  It's not that
hard to build.  You just need a strip of metal around the wheel with
gaps in it to hold the PIC in place when it's not falling in or out.


> But you need a large precise wheel, quite hard to make
> with 4 precise PIC slots that have to feed and position
> perfectly. Easier with just one PIC slot per wheel,
> you only have to fiddle with one profile. But you still
> need stepper gearing, with pulleys and belts, etc to
> give necessary torque.

That's just the point.  Only the diameter and the crusher/programmer
mount need to be at all precise.  Use optosensors to detect position,
then who cares where the slots are?

> The thing that really puts me off the wheel is that you
> need to make one wheel for each chip size you do, ie
> 8,14,18,28 pins etc, where the linear feed design will
> feed any chip in that width, and doesn't need stepper
> driver or stepper positioning, just "open gate and chip
> falls in".

Use rubber shims that fit in the bottom of the slot.  You want a
piece of rubber down there anyways, since you don't want the chip
falling in hard.

Here's an image to help you see what I mean:

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iQA/AwUBPT2PGgVk8xtQuK+BEQK7/ACfZBYNbnoa5z4v4Z5yoaDOD801Nh8AoPTF
8czDFAbc/HCVCwtIWDRW7okD
=rZuE
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----



part 2 4329 bytes content-type:image/png; (decode)


part 3 131 bytes
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2002\07\24@031012 by Vasile Surducan

flavicon
face
I like this picture!

Vasile

On Tue, 23 Jul 2002, Tony Nixon wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2002\07\24@033838 by Pic Dude

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part 1 296 bytes content-type:text/plain; (decoded 7bit)

Oh c'mon, we all know you aussies engineers really
pictured *this*... (see attachment)...



-----Original Message-----

Roman Black wrote after Tony Nixon wrote:
>
> That is almost exactly what I had pictured Tony!
> Aussie engineers unite! :o)
>


part 2 5061 bytes content-type:image/gif; (decode)


part 3 136 bytes
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2002\07\24@081828 by Roman Black

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Pic Dude wrote:
>
> Oh c'mon, we all know you aussies engineers really
> pictured *this*... (see attachment)...

>                              Name: Prog-aussie-version.gif


Ha ha! Yep we do reverse everything here in the
southern hemisphere. Did you know electrons flow
the other way here, so conventional current actually
does equal electron current if you are in Australia
or New Zealand?
-Roman

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2002\07\24@082700 by Vasile Surducan

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On Wed, 24 Jul 2002, Roman Black wrote:

> Ha ha! Yep we do reverse everything here in the
> southern hemisphere. Did you know electrons flow
> the other way here, so conventional current actually
> does equal electron current if you are in Australia
> or New Zealand?
> -Roman


 heeeee heh ! that it was for me, eh ?

 best & succes with your gravitational programmer !
 take care at crows, those eats everything is shining, includig pics :)

Vasile

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2002\07\24@092823 by Roman Black

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Brendan Moran wrote:

> Once again, I think you've missed something.  I was suggesting again
> that you use the .1" edge connector as the crusher.  Place an opto
> sensor near the wheel, and stop it when the slot gets to the crusher
> point, where programming will occur.

My apologies, I did miss something! :o) I had imagined
your wheel with the PIC mounted axially, ie around the
outside which made me think about problems lining up the
contacts and the crush pressure.

Now you have clarified that the PICs are radially mounted,
like a "spoke" it sounds like a great idea. Feeding should
be fully reliable, as only one PIC can fall into the slot.
Then contact positioning will be reliable as all the contacts
are moved into range simultaneously. Thanks for the picture.
:o)

I'm almost converted to the "wheel" design now, shame I went
out and bought solenoids today. :o) The only thing that
still puts me off the wheel idea is the amount of torque
required. I have a car windscreen wiper motor which puts
out mega torque at about 1 rev/second, this might be good
to turn the wheel directly. Deserves a think anyway! :o)
-Roman

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2002\07\24@101504 by M. Adam Davis

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I think you shouldn't use a large torque motor.  If you do then when a
pic gets stuck you shear off the pins (or say someone accidently puts
the tube in backwards so the pins face the wrong way.

Use your two sets of solenoids to crush and program the pic, rather than
moving the pic past a crusher (which, IMO, is going to cause problems
down the road).  If you make the wheel just thinner than the distance
you want the pins to be crushed, then you can simply have the
solenoid/programmer travel it's full length (where it'll hit the pins
against the wheel) and you don't have to worry about adjusting the
crusher for different PICs.  If the crusher PCB has a trace for every
pin of a 40 DIL package, then the only thing you have to change for a
pic changeover is the wheel, and a few connections on the PCB.  If you
wire it like the picstart, and make sure the PIC is always at the top
with pin one up then you can simply wire it to the picstart and the pins
will line up correctly with no rewiring in changeover - only the wheel
now needs to be changed.

There are more ways to make the wheels more universal (one wheel for
wide, one for thin packages, put springs in the hole so the pic is
always at the outermost of the wheel) but they become more and more
complex (and thus prone to failure).

-Adam

Roman Black wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2002\07\24@135237 by Brendan Moran

flavicon
face
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

> > Once again, I think you've missed something.  I was suggesting
> > again that you use the .1" edge connector as the crusher.  Place
> > an opto sensor near the wheel, and stop it when the slot gets to
> > the crusher point, where programming will occur.
>
> My apologies, I did miss something! :o) I had imagined
> your wheel with the PIC mounted axially, ie around the
> outside which made me think about problems lining up the
> contacts and the crush pressure.

Looking back over past messages, it looks like I used the wrong term
for the chip positioning in my first message.  Now that we've got
that sorted out, the idea makes a lot more sense.

{Quote hidden}

With a 4-slot wheel, the majority of the time would depend on the
delay for programming, and the time for setting up the PICs would be
minimal.

If you want to use those solenoids, one could be used for redirecting
bad PICs on the ouput side.

I want to see diagrams and such for this guy, when it's finished.  It
should be impressive to see it in action.

- --Brendan

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=Rvk2
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2002\07\24@141324 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
> Ha ha! Yep we do reverse everything here in the
> southern hemisphere. Did you know electrons flow
> the other way here, so conventional current actually
> does equal electron current if you are in Australia
> or New Zealand?

I have read that the definition of forward vs. reverse on
3-phase current (phase sequence, not current flow)
is reversed in the Antipodes vs. North America.

OT: (sorry) Are there maps (or globes) available there
that show Australia on the top? Seems kind of arbitrary
the way it is typically shown.

Best regards,
Spehro
Pefhany

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2002\07\24@141742 by Brendan Moran

flavicon
face
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

> OT: (sorry) Are there maps (or globes) available there
> that show Australia on the top? Seems kind of arbitrary
> the way it is typically shown.

I don't know about it being arbitrary... If you consider the mass of
water, then the majority of the mass of the planet should be on the
southern side, thus making the only stable orientation for the planet
to have north pointing up.

:o)

- --BJM

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=GCuE
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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2002\07\24@142419 by Eoin Ross

flavicon
face
Indeed there is ... I used to own one ages ago ; )
Actually - for us in the south the maps with north as up make sense - you face the sun looking at the map and you could orient the map using an analogue clock - to use the same method in the nth you would need to turn the same map upside down line it up - then go to the right side of the map

http://www.wizard.gen.nz/

http://www.wizard.gen.nz/box/index.htm

South Up Map of the World - The Wizard has sold over 50,000 thousand of these posters in Cathedral Square Christchurch since 1974. They back up his message that reality, even physical reality, is always controlled by an elite. On the back is a scientific demonstration that the Universe could be inside the earth.

<snip>

OT: (sorry) Are there maps (or globes) available there
that show Australia on the top? Seems kind of arbitrary
the way it is typically shown.

Best regards,
Spehro
Pefhany

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2002\07\24@153108 by Dave King

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At 10:16 PM 24/07/02 +1000, you wrote:
>Pic Dude wrote:
> >
> > Oh c'mon, we all know you aussies engineers really
> > pictured *this*... (see attachment)...
>
> >                              Name: Prog-aussie-version.gif
>
>
>Ha ha! Yep we do reverse everything here in the
>southern hemisphere. Did you know electrons flow
>the other way here, so conventional current actually
>does equal electron current if you are in Australia
>or New Zealand?
>-Roman

Then what do they do at the equator? Some kind of
banana shaped a/c styled dc current?

Here we just but the electrons in the top and they drain
out the bottom of things. You guyz down under must use lighter
than air so it goes in the bottom and floats out the top.....

Everything is much clearer now..... I think I need another layer on my
tinfoil hat.


Dave

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'[OT]: Re: [PIC]: Automatic bulk programmer'
2002\07\24@185352 by Tony Nixon

flavicon
picon face
Spehro Pefhany wrote:

> OT: (sorry) Are there maps (or globes) available there
> that show Australia on the top? Seems kind of arbitrary
> the way it is typically shown.

Yep, got one in the tea room.

MacArthurs Universal Corrective map of the World.


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2002\07\24@185603 by Tony Nixon

flavicon
picon face
Dave King wrote:

> Here we just but the electrons in the top and they drain
> out the bottom of things. You guyz down under must use lighter
> than air so it goes in the bottom and floats out the top.....
>

Surely electrons are lighter than air, so naturally they float up, which
means we don't have to force them down and use excess power.

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2002\07\24@190217 by Dale Botkin

flavicon
face
On Thu, 25 Jul 2002, Tony Nixon wrote:

> Dave King wrote:
>
> > Here we just but the electrons in the top and they drain
> > out the bottom of things. You guyz down under must use lighter
> > than air so it goes in the bottom and floats out the top.....
> >
>
> Surely electrons are lighter than air, so naturally they float up, which
> means we don't have to force them down and use excess power.

Well of course, that's why we always show Vss at the bottom and Vdd at the
top of the schematic, silly.  Everybody knows that, right?

Dale

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'[PIC]: Automatic bulk programmer'
2002\07\24@234917 by Pic Dude

flavicon
face
The Outback restaurant here in many parts of the US
(and authentic Aussie food I bet :-) has some pretty
cool maps on the wall with Australia as the center of
the world, and everything else is relatively smaller
as well.  Interesting perspective, and quite amusing.

Cheers,
-Neil.



> {Original Message removed}

'[PIC]: improved design of Automatic bulk programme'
2002\07\25@023335 by Vasile Surducan

flavicon
face
part 1 528 bytes content-type:TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Based on this magnificent Aussie's ideea, I have finalised last night
( with my daughter help:
http://www.geocities.com/vsurducan/picturi/mada1.html )

my gravitational 2...5 PIC/minute programmer.
Design for both 220V/50Hz and 120V/60Hz is available for free. Picture of
the machine anexed.

Many thanks to black Roman and Tony Nixon. :o)


best regards,
Vasile
http://www.geocities.com/vsurducan

GPL note: This message is dedicated to be an homage for those australian
piclister which have great contribution to the list.



part 2 22512 bytes content-type:IMAGE/GIF; name="aussie_prog.gif" (decode)

part 3 105 bytes
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2002\07\25@031543 by Mircea Chiriciuc

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Keep it that way Vasile!
It's the most detailed drawing until now!
This is the high end version!
BTW. Which one is you? ;) The crow perhaps?

Mircea Chiriciuc

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'[OT]: Southern maps, was Re: Automatic bulk progra'
2002\07\25@033050 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>OT: (sorry) Are there maps (or globes) available there
>that show Australia on the top? Seems kind of arbitrary
>the way it is typically shown.

They are certainly available in NZ. I have one, and I also have a T-shirt
with one on :)))

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'[PIC]: improved design of Automatic bulk programme'
2002\07\25@034750 by Roman Black

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Ha ha ha!! :o) LUIWM!!
Your daughter's art is very nice Vasile! I especially
like the toga and sandals! ;o)

But i'm worried about how Madalina knew my TOP SECRET
design, I didn't think anyone else would hit on the
brilliant idea of using birds for quality control and
final inspection! I just finished training the crow
too...  ;o)
-Roman


Vasile Surducan wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2002\07\25@035832 by Vasile Surducan

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good, for 5 seconds I was thinking you'll be angry...

regards,
Vasile
http://www.geocities.com/vsurducan


On Thu, 25 Jul 2002, Roman Black wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2002\07\25@055952 by Roman Black

flavicon
face
Vasile Surducan wrote:
>
> good, for 5 seconds I was thinking you'll be angry...


Of course not!! :o)

Madalina's art is very impressive, especially
coming from a 10 yr old. I collect paintings, and
have some oils and wcolours etc on my walls.

You must be very proud, Madalina has a LOT of
talent. I especially like "piano lesson" and
"dream".
-Roman

paintings:
> > > http://www.geocities.com/vsurducan/picturi/mada1.html )

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'[PIC]: Automatic bulk programmer'
2002\07\25@111521 by James Newton, webmaster

face picon face
source=
http://www.piclist.com/postbot.asp?id=piclist\2002\07\22\111327a

The wheel design needs only a motor and NO solenoids because you
can set up the wheel to run over bumps or openings that do the
work and are activated by the motion of the wheel.

One exception might be a solenoid to eject failed chips at a
different point.

I've seen machines like this before. The wheel is also a cam or
has several cams on the same shaft and the bumps on the cam(s)
activate the motion of the stations around the wheel. Very
complex motions can be programmed with several cams.

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2002\07\25@111953 by James Newton, webmaster

face picon face
source=
http://www.piclist.com/postbot.asp?id=piclist\2002\07\22\204013a

Sounds just like the pocket programmer... for under $100 if the
chip supports serial programming.
http://www.piclist.com/pocketprog

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'[PIC]: improved design of Automatic bulk programme'
2002\07\25@140155 by Brendan Moran

flavicon
face
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

> Ha ha ha!! :o) LUIWM!!
> Your daughter's art is very nice Vasile! I especially
> like the toga and sandals! ;o)
>
> But i'm worried about how Madalina knew my TOP SECRET
> design, I didn't think anyone else would hit on the
> brilliant idea of using birds for quality control and
> final inspection! I just finished training the crow
> too...  ;o)

Sorry, Roman, you're not the first one by a  long shot.  Google had
it figured out Waaaaaay before you.

http://www.google.com/technology/pigeonrank.html

Read through that.  It's an excellent little article on the systems
used by Google to rank documents.

Pigeon Clusters or PCs make excellent ranking systems ;o)

- --Brendan

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itHupCrX1m4ylntyGTStiJVJ
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2002\07\25@182547 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Thu, 25 Jul 2002, Mircea Chiriciuc wrote:

>Keep it that way Vasile!
>It's the most detailed drawing until now!
>This is the high end version!
>BTW. Which one is you? ;) The crow perhaps?

No, the Roman.

Peter

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2002\07\25@182605 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Thu, 25 Jul 2002, Roman Black wrote:

>Ha ha ha!! :o) LUIWM!!
>Your daughter's art is very nice Vasile! I especially
>like the toga and sandals! ;o)
>
>But i'm worried about how Madalina knew my TOP SECRET
>design, I didn't think anyone else would hit on the
>brilliant idea of using birds for quality control and
>final inspection! I just finished training the crow

Good wording, that final inspection. Crow picking over dead chips ?

Peter

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2002\07\26@020151 by Vasile Surducan

flavicon
face
On Fri, 26 Jul 2002, Peter L. Peres wrote:

> On Thu, 25 Jul 2002, Mircea Chiriciuc wrote:
>
> >Keep it that way Vasile!
> >It's the most detailed drawing until now!
> >This is the high end version!
> >BTW. Which one is you? ;) The crow perhaps?
>
> No, the Roman.
>
 heeee, he !

 Sory Peter, you miss understanding just a little.
The black roman is on the left side of the picture.
The crow may be a romanian gipsy ( that's why Sasha
ask if it's me ... sorry no, my face is too white...)

best, Vasile

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2002\07\26@040149 by Mircea Chiriciuc

flavicon
face
>>Keep it that way Vasile!
>>It's the most detailed drawing until now!
>>This is the high end version!
>>BTW. Which one is you? ;) The crow perhaps?
>
>No, the Roman.
>
>Peter

No, the Roman is "Roman" (Roman Black). Isn't that so?
I also assume that the birds for quality control are the pilisters. ;)
Only the crow remains for Vasile. :)) I was NOT thinking of gipsies Vasile!
I have a way to much respect for you to even think of that! I saw the craw
was just playing with the programmed chips and I thought of your funny side
as you would mess up the good and bad chips just to joke around and give
other headaches.

Mircea Chiriciuc

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'[PIC]: Automatic bulk programmer'
2002\07\26@100753 by Roman Black

flavicon
face
Has anyone built a quick low-cost PIC copier that
will program 16c505 chips? I would like something
very simple where I can insert the "original" chip
in one socket and read that chip and program another
with the same code. (Obviously not copy protected)

This will enable my auto-programmer to make copies
based on a "master" PIC without needing the PC.
Yes I know Tony Nixon/Olimex/Piclist etc have an
excellent pocket programmer, but I think it is overkill
for such a simple need. :o)
-Roman

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'[PIC]: Bulk erasing code protected 16F87x devices'
2002\09\06@081714 by Alan Gorham
flavicon
face
Hello

I'm doing ICSP on 16F874's using a PICSTART+
If I program the devices with code protect on and then try to reprogram them
I get the "configuration bits not set"
error message from MPLAB.

I asked the local Microchip Tech Support about this and he said that I
should be able to perform a bulk erase by
just clicking the "Erase Flash Device" button on the PICSTART window.

If I do this, then the "active" LED on the PICSTART flashes for a fraction
of a second, but nothing else seems to happen.

I'm using v5.70 of MPLAB and v3.00 of PICSTART firmware.

Do I need a production type programmer to do a bulk erase, or is the problem
down to the in-circuit nature of the programming?


Thanks


Alan

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2002\09\06@093502 by John Walshe

flavicon
face
Hi Alan,
   As you know the Picstart is "not supposed to be used for ICSP" - however
I also use it all the time for ICSP. But however, you do have to watch the
wire lengths(a few cm at max) and the load that the "other circuitry is
presenting to the PS+ (it has zip of a drive capability). Make sure nothing
else is connected to the VDD line and try it again(I assume RB6&7 are
buffered adequately from the circuit). I've recently had a problem
programming a 628 where the code was getting in the first time but second
time it was screwed up and config bits were not being set etc (similar to
your case) - the offending item was a 100nF cap across the VDD/VSS near the
pic. Removed that, and everything worked perfectly.
You could also check that the clock hasn't started to oscillate - it
shouldn't when programming.

John
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2002\09\06@102912 by Roman Black

flavicon
face
Hi John, I use the PSP for ICSP on many projects,
and have never had a problem with it. I typically
have the wires from 30 to 60 cm length, with never
a bad program or verify. Are you using ribbon cable?
That will have much higher capacitance than just
running 3 wires between the sockets. The reason I
say 3 wires is that I run the ground wire from
the PSP socket to the board ground of the target
board totally separate from the 3 other wires.

The 3 wires are cabled tied loosely together and
run maybe 15cm away from the ground wire. I have
good cap meters here and can measure the
capacitances if you like. :o)
-Roman


John Walshe wrote:
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2002\09\06@105547 by Alan Gorham

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face
Hi John

I should point out that I have *NO* problems programming/reprogramming the
device *without* setting the code protect bit.
I must have reprgrammed my development PCB 10,000's times without problems!

The problem is only when I set the code protect bit, program and then try to
reprogram.

Alan

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2002\09\06@112222 by Jennifer L. Gatza

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> If I do this, then the "active" LED on the PICSTART flashes
> for a fraction
> of a second, but nothing else seems to happen.

The bulk erase occurs very quickly, so the LED flashes so quickly I often
don't even notice it.  After you erase the chip, click the "Blank" button to
verify that the chip was erased successfully.  If it does not report "Device
is blank," try another chip.  If it still doesn't erase, start checking
errata sheets.

Jen

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2002\09\06@115056 by Alan Gorham

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Hi Jen

>The bulk erase occurs very quickly, so the LED flashes so quickly I often
>don't even notice it.

That sounds familiar...


>After you erase the chip, click the "Blank" button to
>verify that the chip was erased successfully.  If it does not report
"Device
>is blank," try another chip.

Tried it with 400 :-)

> If it still doesn't erase, start checking errata sheets.

I'd better!

Thanks

Alan

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2002\09\07@072326 by Alan Gorham

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An update:

I can bulk erase code protected chips if I insert them into the ZIF socket
on the PICSTART.
So now my problem is still with doing a bulk erase via ICSP.
My question is now:
Why do I have problems doing a bulk erase via ICSP, when I have no problem
programming
via ICSP?


Alan

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2002\09\07@093247 by Jason Harper

picon face
Alan wrote:
> Why do I have problems doing a bulk erase via ICSP, when I have no
problem
> programming via ICSP?

Generally, bulk erase requires 5V, but all other programming functions work
over the full rated supply voltage range of the PIC.  Is power to the chip
coming from the circuit or the programmer when you're doing ICSP?
       Jason Harper

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2002\09\09@045348 by Alan Gorham

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Generally, bulk erase requires 5V, but all other programming functions work
over the full rated supply voltage range of the PIC.  Is power to the chip
coming from the circuit or the programmer when you're doing ICSP?
       Jason Harper



The PICSTART supplies the power during programming, but I normally have LVP
turned off.
Is this my downfall?
I'll test this and see....

Thanks

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'[PIC]: Solved - Bulk erasing code protected 16F87x'
2002\09\09@102911 by Alan Gorham

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Just in case.....

In order to be able to do a bulk erase on a code protectd 16F87x programmed
via ICSP you need to supply your target board with 5V.

You learn something new every day.

Alan

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'[PIC]: 16f87x code protected bulk erase algorithm '
2002\10\29@155351 by Sean Olson
picon face
Here's my problem:
I was playing with some programming software and set the code protect bits on a 16f876.
I tried the erase commands on fpp and winpicprog but they would not reset the code
protection.

So, I downloaded the 16f87x memory programming datasheet (DS39025F), booted into linux,
and wrote a simple programmer.  According to the datasheet, the only way to disable code
protection on the chip is to perform a code ptotected bulk erase sequence.  I implemented
that with the following routine:

void bulk_erase(void) {
 int i;
 device_reset();
 send_command(LOAD_CONFIG);
 send_data(0x3fff);
 for(i = 0; i < 7; i++)
   send_command(INCREMENT_ADDR);
 send_command(BULK_ERASE_SETUP1);
 send_command(BULK_ERASE_SETUP2);
 send_command(BEGIN_ERASE_PROG);
 nano_sleep(ERASE_CYCLE_MAX + PROG_CYCLE_MAX);
 send_command(BULK_ERASE_SETUP1);
 send_command(BULK_ERASE_SETUP2);
 device_reset();
}

All this routine seems to do is try to write 0x3fff to the config register.  It will set
the bits that don t have anything to do with code protection, but it doesn t erase the
device.  I have tried adjusting the time delays but there was no difference.

I have searched through the archives and found some similar posts but the changes
suggested (adding an extra begin programming cycle and such) didn t seem to make a
difference and most were geared more towards the 16x84.  Also, with my slow dial up
connection and the mailing list archive queries taking a few tries each time, I didn t
exactly get through every message.

As for hardware, I am using a TLVP programmer (http://www.finitesite.com/d3jsys) connected to
the 5V output of an AT power supply.  I checked the voltage with a DMM and read 5.2V,
which is in the proper range for performing a code protected bulk erase (4.5   5.5).  The
TLVP is plugged directly into the parallel port.

Any tips, suggestions, or other help on how to bulk erase a code protected 16f87x part
would be greatly appreciated.

Sean


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2002\10\30@161440 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
part 1 644 bytes content-type:text/plain; (decoded 7bit)

> All this routine seems to do is try to write 0x3fff to the config
register.  It will set
> the bits that don t have anything to do with code protection, but it
doesn t erase the
> device.

To fully erase the device, you have to make sure the code protection bits
start out 0.  Apparently it is the transition from 0 to 1 that erases all
the bits covered by the code protect bits.

The attached ZIP file contains source code that works.  See the
PICPRG_ERASE_16F routine in the PICPRG_16.PAS module.  I also included the
PICPRG.INS.PAS file to help you guess what some of the subroutines might
do.


part 2 8423 bytes content-type:application/octet-stream; (decode)

part 3 318 bytes

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'[PIC]: 16f87x code protected bulk erase algorithm '
2002\11\01@170745 by Sean Olson
picon face
> To fully erase the device, you have to make sure the code protection bits
> start out 0.  Apparently it is the transition from 0 to 1 that erases all
> the bits covered by the code protect bits.

I implemented the code Olin sent, however it did not affect the outcome of the bulk
erase.  It seems as if all the sequence is doing is trying to write 0x3fff to the config
register.  The bulk erase doesn't happen.  I can program and read the ID registers so I'm
sure my data communication routines are fine.  I'm rather stumped as to why the bulk
erase doesn't happen.

My TLVP programmer is implemented exactly as described at
http://www.finitesite.com/d3jsys with the exception of using an HCT373 instead of an
HCT573.  I rechecked voltages and am getting 5.25V at high.  Has anyone had success using
this programmer and getting a code protected bulk erase to work with a 16F876?  I don't
know if this makes any difference or not, but the device ID word is 0x09E4.

I just recieved my new batch of PIC's (16F877, 18F452, 18F458) so this isn't as much as
an issue since I can use them.  However, I would really like to figure out why this
doesn't seem to work.

Sean

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2002\11\01@185623 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> I implemented the code Olin sent, however it did not affect the outcome
of the bulk
> erase.  It seems as if all the sequence is doing is trying to write
0x3fff to the config
> register.  The bulk erase doesn't happen.  I can program and read the ID
registers so I'm
> sure my data communication routines are fine.  I'm rather stumped as to
why the bulk
> erase doesn't happen.

The source I sent is the actual operational source for my programmer,
which can definitely erase a code protected 16F877.  Are the Vpp and Vdd
voltages within spec.  Note that the allowable Vdd range is narrower for
erasing and programming the chip than for verifying it.  If I remember
right, Vpp needs to be 13V +-.5 and Vdd 5V +-.5.  I would want to be
closer than +-.5V.


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2002\11\02@005002 by Sean Olson

picon face
> The source I sent is the actual operational source for my programmer,
> which can definitely erase a code protected 16F877.  Are the Vpp and Vdd
> voltages within spec.  Note that the allowable Vdd range is narrower for
> erasing and programming the chip than for verifying it.  If I remember
> right, Vpp needs to be 13V +-.5 and Vdd 5V +-.5.  I would want to be
> closer than +-.5V.

I'm using a low voltage programmer, so Vpp = Vdd = 5.25V.  The 16f87x memory programming
datasheet (DS39025F) doesn't explicitly state that LVP mode is able to do a code
protected bulk erase, however it does say that other than the lower Vpp voltage and
dedicating RB3 to programming, "All other specifications for high voltage ICSP apply".

I'm beginning to think that maybe the code protected bulk erase needs Vpp at the high
voltage level (Vdd + 3.5) rather than the low voltage level (Vdd) as provided by my
programmer.  I'm going to modify my TLVP to use a higher Vpp (make it a THVP) and see if
that solves the problem.  Have you (or anyone else for that matter) found any
documentation that says LVP mode can or can't do this kind of erase?

Sean

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2002\11\02@082105 by Olin Lathrop

face picon face
> I'm using a low voltage programmer, so Vpp = Vdd = 5.25V.

Is the low voltage programming enable bit set.

> The 16f87x memory programming
> datasheet (DS39025F) doesn't explicitly state that LVP mode is able to
do a code
> protected bulk erase, however it does say that other than the lower Vpp
voltage and
> dedicating RB3 to programming, "All other specifications for high
voltage ICSP apply".
>
> I'm beginning to think that maybe the code protected bulk erase needs
Vpp at the high
> voltage level (Vdd + 3.5) rather than the low voltage level (Vdd) as
provided by my
> programmer.  I'm going to modify my TLVP to use a higher Vpp (make it a
THVP) and see if
> that solves the problem.  Have you (or anyone else for that matter)
found any
> documentation that says LVP mode can or can't do this kind of erase?

I thought you couldn't erase code protected memory with low voltage
programming, but I just checked the spec and found the same thing you did.
I don't have any experience with low voltage programming.  My programmer
always uses high voltage.


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2002\11\08@015108 by Sean Olson

picon face
> > I'm using a low voltage programmer, so Vpp = Vdd = 5.25V.
> Is the low voltage programming enable bit set?

The LVP bit was set in the config register.

> I thought you couldn't erase code protected memory with low voltage
> programming, but I just checked the spec and found the same thing you did.
> I don't have any experience with low voltage programming.  My programmer
> always uses high voltage.

Well, as it turns out, you were right about low voltage programming being the problem.  I
converted my TLVP to a THVP with a Vpp of 11.5V and a Vdd of 5.25V.  After inverting the
MCLR pin in software to account for the circuit change, the code protected bulk erase
seemed to work perfectly in both fpp and my own programming software.

Here's some debug output from my programmer:

Config = 0x3FFF
Setting Config = 0x0000
Config = 0x0400
ID:  2EAA  1DD5  0CCC  3FB3
Starting Bulk Erase
Checking values after Bulk Erase
Config = 0x3FFF
ID:  3FFF  3FFF  3FFF  3FFF

The same sequence using the LVP programmer would only set a few bits in the config block
and wouldn't touch the ID bytes.

From this it would seem that a code protected bulk erase using a low voltage programmer
will not work in this series of PIC's, which is contrary to the datasheet.  Or maybe my
programmer wasn't all it could be...  Either way,  I would still like to hear from anyone
who has been able to perform a code protected bulk erase on the PIC16F87x series using a
low voltage on MCLR.

Thanks for the help Olin.

Sean


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'[PIC]: Bulk Erase'
2002\12\18@110602 by Christopher Dusch
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face
Hi,

I'm new to the PICList.  I am currently employed with an efficiency
engineering firm in Tempe, Arizona.  Recently I was assigned the task of
redesigning our line of photovoltaic charge controllers to implement the
PICMicro.  To do this successfully I will have to become an expert at the
PIC very quickly.  My background is in Materials Science and Engineering,
though I have a fair amount of experience in microelectronics and computer
Programming.  Despite this, I lack any experience with Assembly coding or
microcontroller application.

My initial experimentation with the PIC16F84 includes building an El Cheapo
programmer, which works, and some small, simple LED and LCD circuits to test
my programs.  My problem, however, is that I am unable to perform a BULK
ERASE operation.
My lack of assembly experience and the esoteric instructions in the
programming
datasheet are holding up further development so I turn to the PICList for
support.  Can someone please, in plain
English and Assembly explain how to perform a BULK ERASE on a PIC16F84(A).
I would really appreciate it.

Thanks!

Chris Dusch
Tempe, Arizona

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2002\12\18@115816 by Dale Botkin

flavicon
face
Might I respectfully suggest that, since this is a commercial environment,
you get a good quality commercial programmer (Picstart+, Warp-13, EPIC,
whatever) and look at more modern PICs than the 16F84.  16F87x or the
PIC18 family.  Less than a day of your time messing with it will pay for
the hardware.

While I think learning Assembler would be a good idea to get intimately
familiar with the PIC architecture and all, I'd also suggest a C compiler
will probably produce much better results for you much more quickly, since
you're not already an assembler kind of guy.

Just a couple suggestions.

Dale
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On Wed, 18 Dec 2002, Christopher Dusch wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2002\12\18@150628 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
>  Can someone please, in plain
> English and Assembly explain how to perform a BULK ERASE on a
> PIC16F84(A).

The firmware for my Wisp628 programmer http://www.voti.nl/wisp628
contains the 'secret' sequence. Alas, the firmware is written in Jal,
not in English...

Wouter van Ooijen

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2002\12\18@150633 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Might I respectfully suggest that, since this is a commercial
> environment, you get a good quality commercial programmer

and maybe read http://www.voti.nl/swp ?

Wouter van Ooijen

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2002\12\18@162350 by Christopher Dusch

flavicon
face
The BULK ERASE routine should be the same for all 16F8x PICs, right?

A commercial programmer will eliminate my problem, but will also eliminate
the possibility for designing a custom programmer (which we plan to do)
because we will still not be able to erase the PIC.  I hope I'm making
myself clear.

Chris

On 12/18/02 9:57 AM, "Dale Botkin" <TakeThisOuTdale@spam@spam@spam@BOTKIN.ORG> wrote:

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2002\12\18@164038 by Dale Botkin

flavicon
face
Ah.  You only mentioned redesigning a line of PV charge controllers, which
is why I did not assume you wanted to build a custom programmer.  The two
do not seem to be implicitly connected.  For a custom programmer, I
believe there are complete programming specifications on the Microchip web
site, if you haven't seen them yet:

http://www.microchip.com/1010/suppdoc/specs/index.htm

Dale
---
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Fusistance is retile.
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On Wed, 18 Dec 2002, Christopher Dusch wrote:

> The BULK ERASE routine should be the same for all 16F8x PICs, right?
>
> A commercial programmer will eliminate my problem, but will also eliminate
> the possibility for designing a custom programmer (which we plan to do)
> because we will still not be able to erase the PIC.  I hope I'm making
> myself clear.

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2002\12\18@174016 by Mike Singer

picon face
Christopher Dusch wrote:
> ...  Can someone please, in plain English and Assembly
> explain how to perform a BULK ERASE on a PIC16F84(A)...

BULK ERASE what: PROGRAMM or DATA MEMORY?

Anyway, have look at 30277C.pdf (ICSP guide)
SECTION 3, PROGRAMMING SPECIFICATIONS,
In-Circuit Serial Programming for PIC16F8X FLASH MCUs,
2.3.1.9 BULK ERASE PROGRAMM MEMORY
2.3.1.9 BULK ERASE DATA MEMORY

The text is in plain English.

Could you explain why you choose 16F84?
Have not enough money for 18F242?
Hmm, 18F242 is cheaper then 16F84.

  Mike.
(F18 vs F16 mortal combat leitmotiv)

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2002\12\18@174433 by Christopher Dusch

flavicon
face
Right, I have the programming specs from Microchip, but they obviously were
not designed for the beginner.


On 12/18/02 2:40 PM, "Dale Botkin" <TakeThisOuTdalespamspamBOTKIN.ORG> wrote:

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2002\12\18@183809 by Gordon Niessen

flavicon
face
Why exactly are you needing to built your own "custom" programmer.  Rather
then use one of the far to many already available?

At 04:35 PM 12/18/2002, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

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2002\12\18@210641 by Kevin Timmerman

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face
This works with the 16F84 and a few other flash parts.

// --- This will erase all program and config flash memory in the part
// Execute Load Config command
WriteCommand(g_pChip->cmdLoadConfig);
WriteData(0x7FFE);

// Inc to config word location (0x2007)
for(int i=0;i<7;i++) WriteCommand(g_pChip->cmdIncAddress);

// Execute Erase Setup 1
WriteCommand(g_pChip->cmdBulkEraseSetup1);
// Execute Erase Setup 2
WriteCommand(g_pChip->cmdBulkEraseSetup2);
// Execute Begin Programming command
WriteCommand(g_pChip->cmdBeginEraseProgrammingCycle);

// Wait
Sleep(10);

// Execute Erase Setup 1
WriteCommand(g_pChip->cmdBulkEraseSetup1);
// Execute Erase Setup 2
WriteCommand(g_pChip->cmdBulkEraseSetup2);



// --- Erase data memory
// Execute Load Config command
WriteCommand(g_pChip->cmdLoadDataForDataMemory);
WriteData(0x7FFE);

// Execute Erase Setup 1
WriteCommand(g_pChip->cmdBulkEraseSetup1);
// Execute Erase Setup 2
WriteCommand(g_pChip->cmdBulkEraseSetup2);
// Execute Begin Programming command
WriteCommand(g_pChip->cmdBeginEraseProgrammingCycle);

// Wait
Sleep(10);

// Execute Erase Setup 1
WriteCommand(g_pChip->cmdBulkEraseSetup1);
// Execute Erase Setup 2
WriteCommand(g_pChip->cmdBulkEraseSetup2);



// Commands for 16F84
0x00,   // Load Configuration
0x06,   // Increment Address
0x01,   // Bulk Erase Setup 1
0x07    // Bulk Erase Setup 2
0x08,   // Begin Erase Programming Cycle
0x02,   // Load Data for Program Memory

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2002\12\18@234135 by Tony Nixon

flavicon
picon face
Be good if they just had...

EraseChip


Kevin Timmerman wrote:
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2002\12\19@052504 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Right, I have the programming specs from Microchip, but they
> obviously were not designed for the beginner.

I think they are rather clear, but for the 16x84 the erase is not
correctly documented. As I said: check the code of my programmer (or any
other freely available programmer code) for the correct sequence. Or
search the piclits archive, this question is posed & answered
approximately each 6 months, seems to be indicate the number of people
that attempt to design their own programmer.

Wouter van Ooijen

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2002\12\19@112405 by Christopher Dusch

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face
We're efficiency engineers, we redesign everything

On 12/18/02 4:36 PM, "Gordon Niessen" <gordon@spam@spamKILLspamGNIESSEN.COM> wrote:

{Quote hidden}

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2002\12\19@112619 by Christopher Dusch

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No kidding!

On 12/18/02 9:39 PM, "Tony Nixon" <RemoveMEtony.nixonspamspamEraseMEENG.MONASH.EDU.AU> wrote:

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2002\12\19@113835 by Kevin Timmerman

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face
They do...

0x09 Bulk Erase Program Memory
0x0B Bulk Erase Data Memory

But they only work on a few of the newer parts.


At 03:39 PM 12/19/02 +1100, you wrote:
>Be good if they just had...
>
>EraseChip

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2002\12\19@114909 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> We're efficiency engineers, we redesign everything

And you use 16F84's? Take a look at the 16F628 (and maybe even the
16F630).

Wouter van Ooijen

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2002\12\19@134256 by Christopher Dusch

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Which parts?

On 12/19/02 9:38 AM, "Kevin Timmerman" <spamBeGonelistsRemoveMEspamRemoveMEPCMX.NET> wrote:

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2002\12\19@134302 by Christopher Dusch

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Good idea, thanks!

On 12/19/02 9:47 AM, "Wouter van Ooijen" <@spam@wouterspamBeGonespamVOTI.NL> wrote:

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2002\12\19@170601 by Tony Nixon

flavicon
picon face
Christopher Dusch wrote:
>
> Which parts?
>
> On 12/19/02 9:38 AM, "Kevin Timmerman" <spam_OUTlistsspamspamPCMX.NET> wrote:
>
> > They do...
> >
> > 0x09 Bulk Erase Program Memory
> > 0x0B Bulk Erase Data Memory
> >
> > But they only work on a few of the newer parts.

These are some examples of single erase commands....

16F87xA, 16F7x, 16F62xA

12Fxx, but remember to save OSCAL and BG

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2002\12\20@124202 by Peter L. Peres

picon face
On Thu, 19 Dec 2002, Christopher Dusch wrote:

*>No kidding!

Actually it would not be so good. Several flash and memory products from
other manufacturers had 'self erase' problems in the field afaik, due to
too simple erase and write commands. PICs never suffered of this. At a
price ...

Peter

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2002\12\20@161343 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> 12Fxx, but remember to save OSCAL and BG

And who can tell me what those BG bits are for?
- there is no mentioning of 'bandgat' anywhere in the datasheet
- the 12F has no 'absolute' internal voltage reference (only Vcc-derived
references)

Wouter van Ooijen

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2002\12\20@170159 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 10:13 PM 12/20/02 +0100, you wrote:
> > 12Fxx, but remember to save OSCAL and BG
>
>And who can tell me what those BG bits are for?
>- there is no mentioning of 'bandgat' anywhere in the datasheet
>- the 12F has no 'absolute' internal voltage reference (only Vcc-derived
>references)

It does have one "absolute" voltage reference- for the BOD- and note that
it's a fairly tight spec on those devices (+/-50mV compared to +/-300mV
on some other devices). Just a WAG.

Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
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2002\12\21@042405 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> It does have one "absolute" voltage reference- for the BOD- and note
that it's a fairly tight spec on those devices (+/-50mV compared to
+/-300mV on some other devices). Just a WAG.

But the best suggestion I have seen so far.

Wouter van Ooijen

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'[OT]: Bulk Rate Mail (was: April Issue of Nuts & V'
2003\04\23@193856 by Banjo Spam
picon face
I have changed this to OT, although I have OT posts
filtered (so I won't see a response to this unless you
mail me directly).

Actually, there are several different services for
"Bulk Rate Mail." In the US, as the sender you can
annotate your bulk mail with special service requests,
called Ancillary Service Endorsements (that may cost
additional fees):

Address Service Requested
Return Service Requested
Change Service Requested
Forwarding Service Requested

So the statement "Bulk rate just gets pitched, never
returned or forwarded" is not entirely accurate.

http://www.usps.com/businessmail101/addressing/specialAddress.htm

But this is more detail than you probably wanted.


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'[Bulk] [OT] dsPIC for hobbyists'
2005\08\29@094257 by Dave Lag
picon face
Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
>>Are you calling Wouter "everyone"?  :-)
> That's a new nickname :)
> Wouter = everyone (dutch: Elckerlijk)

How the "h-e-double hockeysticks" do we pronounce that?

> James = God
> we need some more!
> Bob Blick = propellor man?

Ahhh.... variant of "propeller head"

definition from The Web Developer's Journal:

" The term 'prophead' is a holdover from the days when the nerd kids on
the block wore caps with little propellers on top. This fashion gave way
to the pencil pocket protector. Here at the WDJ, 'propheads' refers to
programmers, developers and other technically-oriented types. A weenie
doesn't even use a regular keyboard, just a little one with two keys: 1
and 0. Weenies talk among themselves in continuous data streams, which
sound to mortal ears like a modem logging on."
:)
D


'[PIC] LVP, bulk erase and potential problems (and '
2005\11\29@082232 by Jan-Erik Soderholm
face picon face
Hi.
Now, if I have understood things correctly, there is
a potential problem during bulk erase with the LVP
feature. A bulk erase will reset the LVP bit and enable
LVP. If the programmer then releases the target PIC
from programming mode (by lowering the prog
voltage on MCLR), there is a risk that the
processor will enter LVP mode (if the PGM pin
isn't pulled down with a resistor.

And (still if I've understood correctly), this is
not a problem if the programmer keeps the MCLR
pin at Vpp over the whole erase to fuse re-programming
cycle (?).

And also that a pulldown on the PGM pin will
always protect against this scenario ?

The reason I ask is that the Wisp628 has a
LVP connection/cable. I've never connected
it to anything myself, and it's not perfectly clear
from Wouters Wisp628 page *when* it should
be used. I'd like to understand the LVP issues
fully to be able to better support my local
Wisp628 customers in Sweden.

On a local Swedish electronics forum, there was a
statement today saying that failing to handle the PGM
pin correctly can brake a 16F628A. Comments ?

Best Regards,
Jan-Erik.




2005\11\29@083749 by Michael Rigby-Jones

picon face


{Quote hidden}

Putting a pulldown on the PGM pin should prevent any programming issues.  The only time LVP has ever given me grief was when it was accidently left floating.

Regards

Mike

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2005\11\29@084557 by olin piclist

face picon face
Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
> And (still if I've understood correctly), this is
> not a problem if the programmer keeps the MCLR
> pin at Vpp over the whole erase to fuse re-programming
> cycle (?).

Yes, if it can.  Note that Vpp is often required to go to 0 between some
operations, like bulk erase and programming data.

> And also that a pulldown on the PGM pin will
> always protect against this scenario ?

Yes.

> On a local Swedish electronics forum, there was a
> statement today saying that failing to handle the PGM
> pin correctly can brake a 16F628A.

Maybe, but I would need to see solid evidence for me to believe that.


******************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, (978) 742-9014.  #1 PIC
consultant in 2004 program year.  http://www.embedinc.com/products

2005\11\29@174533 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
[yes! a PIC topic!]

> The reason I ask is that the Wisp628 has a
> LVP connection/cable. I've never connected
> it to anything myself, and it's not perfectly clear
> from Wouters Wisp628 page *when* it should
> be used.

I don't realy know when it could be *unconnected* so I always connect it
to the PGM pin (that is, if the chip has one).

> On a local Swedish electronics forum, there was a
> statement today saying that failing to handle the PGM
> pin correctly can brake a 16F628A. Comments ?

break the chip? I would be surprised!

Wouter van Ooijen

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'[PIC] LVP, bulk erase and potential problems (anda'
2005\11\30@033039 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
Wouter van Ooijen wrote :

[About the LVP line from the Wisp628...]

>
> I don't realy know when it could be *unconnected* so I always
> connect it  to the PGM pin (that is, if the chip has one).

OK. And what does the LVP line from the Wisp628 actualy do ?
Does it just hold the PGM pin low all the time, or is the
pin "handled" in some way ?

Jan-Erik.

>
> > On a local Swedish electronics forum, there was a
> > statement today saying that failing to handle the PGM
> > pin correctly can brake a 16F628A. Comments ?
>
> break the chip? I would be surprised!

Yep, that was my reaction. The guy should ask
his techer who mentioned it and se if he could
get more info. Probaly some missunderstanding...

Jan-Erik.



'[PIC] LVP, bulk erase and potential problems(andal'
2005\11\30@040434 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> OK. And what does the LVP line from the Wisp628 actualy do ?
> Does it just hold the PGM pin low all the time, or is the
> pin "handled" in some way ?

it only pulls that line low during the period 'around' the moment when
/MCLR goes high (and with the dongle: when Vdd goes high). So when after
programming the target PIC is running the pin is released and can be
used freely by the target program.

> Yep, that was my reaction. The guy should ask
> his techer who mentioned it and se if he could
> get more info. Probaly some missunderstanding...

If you can get that damaged chip (and maybe the exact procedure that
lead to its damage) I am interested.

Wouter van Ooijen

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'[PIC] LVP, bulk erase and potentialproblems(andali'
2005\11\30@044605 by Jan-Erik Soderholm

face picon face
Wouter van Ooijen wrote :

>
> > Yep, that was my reaction. The guy should ask
> > his techer who mentioned it and se if he could
> > get more info. Probaly some missunderstanding...
>
> If you can get that damaged chip (and maybe the exact
> procedure that lead to its damage) I am interested.

I probably can't. It was just something his teacher
said, and it was (at that time) unrelated to the Wisp628
anyway.

I just thought I'd get some "feedback" from the piclist
on the subject...

And thanks for the LVP/PGM/Wisp628 info, it helps
giving my Wisp628 users correct info !

Jan-Erik.




'[EE] bulk erase of 18F parts when running at 3.3V?'
2005\12\13@181555 by Jesse Lackey
flavicon
face
Hello all,

Newest can't-believe-microchip-did-that discovery: even when using
high-voltage in-circuit programming, one can't bulk-erase a chip unless
Vdd is 4.5V.  I'm using an ICD2 in mplab.  There is no warning about
this even though the ICD2 correctly reads the 3.3V I'm running
everything at.

So you can program and single-step, but for any kind of development you
can't work at 3.3V.

I just kludged in a way to switch the PIC Vdd to 5V without sending 5V
to all the other 3.3V parts.  Xacto scraping and soldering wire-wrap
jumper wires...

The programming spec data sheet for the part (PIC18F2320) clearly says
4.5V for bulk erase.
How does one do normal development in a 3.3V system?
Am I missing something?

Do atmel parts have this ridiculous problem?

Thanks
Jesse

2005\12\13@184655 by Mike Harrison

flavicon
face
On Tue, 13 Dec 2005 18:15:50 -0500, you wrote:

>Hello all,
>
>Newest can't-believe-microchip-did-that discovery: even when using
>high-voltage in-circuit programming, one can't bulk-erase a chip unless
>Vdd is 4.5V.  I'm using an ICD2 in mplab.  There is no warning about
>this even though the ICD2 correctly reads the 3.3V I'm running
>everything at.
>
>So you can program and single-step, but for any kind of development you
>can't work at 3.3V.
>
>I just kludged in a way to switch the PIC Vdd to 5V without sending 5V
>to all the other 3.3V parts.  Xacto scraping and soldering wire-wrap
>jumper wires...
>
>The programming spec data sheet for the part (PIC18F2320) clearly says
>4.5V for bulk erase.
>How does one do normal development in a 3.3V system?
>Am I missing something?

Not sure about the 18F but on the 16F, the trick is to NOT set the code-protect bits - then ICD can
use non-bulk erase and it works, albeit significantly more slowly, so boosting supply to 5V for
programming is a good idea for that reason alone.

It is totally dumb that ICD2 does not give a sensible warning about this issue - it stumped me for a
while



2005\12\13@184823 by olin piclist

face picon face
Jesse Lackey wrote:
> The programming spec data sheet for the part (PIC18F2320) clearly says
> 4.5V for bulk erase.

Right.  This is well known and hardly a new revelation.

> How does one do normal development in a 3.3V system?

You design this capability in up front.  ICSP can be very nice and useful
and usually not hard to design in, but it can be very difficult to retrofit
a design where it was not considered.

I remember hearing a military consultant say something like "amateurs start
by talking about strategy, but the professionals start with logistics".  I
think there is something similar in electronics: The professionals start
with the power supply.


******************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, (978) 742-9014.  #1 PIC
consultant in 2004 program year.  http://www.embedinc.com/products

2005\12\13@191346 by Jose Da Silva

flavicon
face
On December 13, 2005 03:15 pm, Jesse Lackey wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> Newest can't-believe-microchip-did-that discovery: even when using
> high-voltage in-circuit programming, one can't bulk-erase a chip
> unless Vdd is 4.5V.  I'm using an ICD2 in mplab.  There is no warning
> about this even though the ICD2 correctly reads the 3.3V I'm running
> everything at.

Out of curiosity, if the chip is code protected, will the attempt to
bulk erase unprotect the chip?
If yes, then it is definitely a grand goof-up of major concern!
If not, then, it's good to know that code remains protected.

2005\12\13@191407 by Jesse Lackey

flavicon
face
>> The programming spec data sheet for the part (PIC18F2320) clearly says
>> 4.5V for bulk erase.
>
> Right.  This is well known and hardly a new revelation.

To developers of PIC programming hardware, sure.  Everyone else?

I bought an ICD2 to not have to deal with the details of how they are
programmed.

{Quote hidden}

So a means of switching the PIC's Vdd (and only the PIC, not everything
else on the 3.3V bus) to 5V must be part of the design?  So this means
some pcb space must be used for any design that could ever need to be
erased and re-programmed?  At least easily cuttable traces.  Or .1"
header with a jumper to 5V or 3.3V.  This seems completely ridiculous.

I'm just real real suprised that in 2.5 years of PIC work I've never
seen this mentioned in any microchip literature or any ICSP-howto design.

I'm thinking back to other < 5V designs, there have been a couple, and
this has never come up.  But I was using a F452 and a F1320, not the
F2320.  Maybe the other ones can erased @ 3.3V; maybe sometimes it works
@ 3.3V and sometimes it doesn't and I've been lucky until now.

Another 3 hours wasted...
J

2005\12\13@203105 by Chen Xiao Fan

face
flavicon
face

> -----Original Message-----
> From: RemoveMEpiclist-bouncesKILLspamspamKILLspammit.edu
> Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 7:16 AM
>
> The programming spec data sheet for the part (PIC18F2320)
> clearly says  4.5V for bulk erase.
> How does one do normal development in a 3.3V system?
> Am I missing something?
>
> Do atmel parts have this ridiculous problem?
>
> Thanks
> Jesse

An easy solution, forget ICSP in this case as Olin
mentioned that "it can be very difficult to retrofit
a design where it was not considered".

ICSP is anyway not a good solution for mass production.
We switched to off-line programming since last year.

And Atmel have more ridiculous problems...

Regards,
Xiaofan

2005\12\13@210100 by Lee Jones

flavicon
face
>> Newest can't-believe-microchip-did-that discovery: even when using
>> high-voltage in-circuit programming, one can't bulk-erase a chip
>> unless Vdd is 4.5V.  I'm using an ICD2 in mplab.  There is no warning
>> about this even though the ICD2 correctly reads the 3.3V I'm running
>> everything at.

Since the ICD2 knows the PIC model and the target circuit voltage,
it _really_ should warn you or refuse to do a bulk erase command.

> Out of curiosity, if the chip is code protected, will the attempt
> to bulk erase unprotect the chip?
> If yes, then it is definitely a grand goof-up of major concern!
> If not, then, it's good to know that code remains protected.

Out of experience, no.  Chip stays code protected.  It seems to
reprogram properly (at 3.3 volt) but the verify always fails.

Following paragraphs sum up a bunch of non-billable labor when I
had to figure this out for myself a while back.

I ran into the same situation with an 18LF6621 on a customer board,
entire board runs at 3.3V, using ICD2 for development.  I turned
on code protect and found I couldn't undo the code protect.  Erase
command does not warn you or fail or anything -- just appears to
succeed.  After every reprogram, verify fails.  Normally, given
3.3V circuitry, I use ICD2 in "Target Supplies Power" mode.

Board rev 2, which I was using, was designed to allow PIC Vdd to
go to +5V without damaging the remaining 3.3V only components (a
result of a less than optimum experience with board rev 1 <sigh>).

Using ICD2 running from USB power, I reverted to "ICD2 Supplies
Power" mode.  Still wouldn't bulk erase.  PIC Vdd wasn't going up
at all.  So power from ICD2 in USB mode to target PIC is very
low or nonexistant.  (I didn't have a external power supply handy
to plug into the ICD2's coaxial power jack, so I don't know if
that would have resolved the issue.)

I reconfigured back to "Target Supplies Power" mode, popped 3 AA
batteries in a battery holder, used a pair of clip leads to jump
battery pack to PIC Vdd & ground, and -- viola -- PIC bulk erase
worked fine.  3 fresh AA alkaline batteries gave me about 4.7V as
reported by ICD2 voltage monitor.

                                               Lee Jones

2005\12\13@214035 by Jesse Lackey

flavicon
face
Hello all,

Lee Jones wrote:

>>Out of curiosity, if the chip is code protected, will the attempt
>>to bulk erase unprotect the chip?
>>If yes, then it is definitely a grand goof-up of major concern!
>>If not, then, it's good to know that code remains protected.
>
>
> Out of experience, no.  Chip stays code protected.  It seems to
> reprogram properly (at 3.3 volt) but the verify always fails.
>

I just tried the same thing, and got some strange results.  Blank check
failed, reprogramming verified (!) but didn't work correctly (!).  Still
code protected.

The only way to successfully erase a code-protected chip is to run at 5V.

For my 3.3V development, I turned code protect off, and now it seems to
erase ok - at least the program space.  Sometimes EEPROM/config bits
fail.  But so far I can do normal development work without constantly
switching the PIC Vdd power.

Bottom line:

If code protect is on, the 18F parts are effectively
one-time-programmable in a 3.3V system.

If code protect is off, it seems that it can be erased at 3.3V, with
occasional flakyness.

> Following paragraphs sum up a bunch of non-billable labor when I
> had to figure this out for myself a while back.

This is *EXACTLY* the problem.  Microchip didn't spell out this weird
exception to their whole low-voltage in-circuit everything system, and
experienced engineers, on the clock (or working for zero, if freelance)
have gotten burned and customer money wasted and schedules missed.  Its
not like nobody at Microchip knows about this, they just want to keep it
under the rug.

J

2005\12\13@214646 by Lee Jones

flavicon
face
>>> The programming spec data sheet for the part (PIC18F2320) clearly says
>>> 4.5V for bulk erase.

>> Right.  This is well known and hardly a new revelation.

> To developers of PIC programming hardware, sure.  Everyone else?

It is obvious ... once you know about it.  PIC 18F2220/2320/4220/4320
data sheet, DS39599C, section 6.6 "Flash Program Operation During
Code Protection" has 1 sentence refering you to section 23.0 (with
a note to see 23.5 "Program Verification And Code Protection")."

No where in section 23.5 "Program Verification And Code Protection"
does it mention the 4.5V to 5.5V requirement to erase the chip.

You have to read to section 23.9 "Low Voltage ICSP Programming"!
The last sentence of that section finally mentions the restriction.
Tucked into the regular text, with no highlighting or emphasis, are
two sentences addressing this.  And the important one, stating the
PIC needs 4.5V to 5.5V to do a block erase, is almost misleading
because it qualifies it with "when using low voltage programming".
In fact, bulk erase ALWAYS needs 4.5V to 5.5V, no matter which
programming mode you are using.

18F2320 is actually an improvement over previous 18F data sheets.

If Microchip isn't going to fix the silicon, they should highlight
this tidbit or move it to a more prominent location.


>>> How does one do normal development in a 3.3V system?

>> You design this capability in up front.

> So a means of switching the PIC's Vdd (and only the PIC, not everything
> else on the 3.3V bus) to 5V must be part of the design?  So this means
> some pcb space must be used for any design that could ever need to be
> erased and re-programmed?  At least easily cuttable traces.  Or .1"
> header with a jumper to 5V or 3.3V.  This seems completely ridiculous.

Yes and yes (if you're going to use code protection).  We used 0.1"
header but it was too cumbersome, so we switched to a few diodes.


> I'm just real real suprised that in 2.5 years of PIC work I've never
> seen this mentioned in any microchip literature or any ICSP-howto design.

It has been mentioned here on the PIC list.

> I'm thinking back to other < 5V designs, there have been a couple, and
> this has never come up.  But I was using a F452 and a F1320, not the
> F2320.  Maybe the other ones can erased @ 3.3V; maybe sometimes it works
> @ 3.3V and sometimes it doesn't and I've been lucky until now.

4.5V to 5.5V is only needed to erase a code protected PIC.  So maybe
you just never ran into it before.

                                               Lee Jones

2005\12\14@070916 by olin piclist

face picon face
Jose Da Silva wrote:
> Out of curiosity, if the chip is code protected, will the attempt to
> bulk erase unprotect the chip?

Yes, right after erasing all the protected content.

> If yes, then it is definitely a grand goof-up of major concern!

No, it's quite reasonable unless you want a single-use chip.

******************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, (978) 742-9014.  #1 PIC
consultant in 2004 program year.  http://www.embedinc.com/products

2005\12\14@071917 by olin piclist

face picon face
Jesse Lackey wrote:
> So a means of switching the PIC's Vdd (and only the PIC, not everything
> else on the 3.3V bus) to 5V must be part of the design?

Your circuit doesn't have to create the 5V, just be tolerant of when the
programmer drives Vdd to 5V.

> So this means
> some pcb space must be used for any design that could ever need to be
> erased and re-programmed?  At least easily cuttable traces.  Or .1"
> header with a jumper to 5V or 3.3V.  This seems completely ridiculous.

Nothing is free, including ICSP, but you're making it sound harder than it
is.  It's part of what your circuit does, and needs to be considered as part
of the design.  This of course includes reading the specifications to
understand what voltages are required.  Often this can be addressed with
just a diode.

> I'm just real real suprised that in 2.5 years of PIC work I've never
> seen this mentioned in any microchip literature or any ICSP-howto
> design.

The required voltage levels are clearly spelled out in the programming
specs, which of course is something that should be consulted when designing
circuits for ICSP.  I also mention this in my ICSP writeup at
http://www.embedinc.com/picprg/icsp.htm.

> I'm thinking back to other < 5V designs, there have been a couple, and
> this has never come up.  But I was using a F452 and a F1320, not the
> F2320.  Maybe the other ones can erased @ 3.3V;

I don't think so.

> maybe sometimes it works
> @ 3.3V and sometimes it doesn't and I've been lucky until now.

That, or the programmer forced Vdd to 5V and you were lucky that the rest of
the circuit tolerated it.


******************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, (978) 742-9014.  #1 PIC
consultant in 2004 program year.  http://www.embedinc.com/products

2005\12\14@074017 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>>>> How does one do normal development in a 3.3V system?

>>> You design this capability in up front.

>> So a means of switching the PIC's Vdd (and only the PIC, not everything
>> else on the 3.3V bus) to 5V must be part of the design?  So this means
>> some pcb space must be used for any design that could ever need to be
>> erased and re-programmed?  At least easily cuttable traces.  Or .1"
>> header with a jumper to 5V or 3.3V.  This seems completely ridiculous.

>Yes and yes (if you're going to use code protection).  We used 0.1"
>header but it was too cumbersome, so we switched to a few diodes.

It strikes me that this is where one needs a "0 ohm jumper" during
development, but has the two pads linked by a copper track for production. I
small quantity production the fitting of a 0 ohm resistor would probably
save another board turn.

2005\12\14@081303 by olin piclist

face picon face
Chen Xiao Fan wrote:
> ICSP is anyway not a good solution for mass production.
> We switched to off-line programming since last year.

I disagree with this blanket statement.  ICSP has a number of advantages for
production, although like any feature, it's not free.  A few years ago most
of my PIC designs used DIP packages.  The PICs were programmed separately,
sometimes outside, then installed on the boards during production.  Now
probably over 90% of new designs use surface mount PICs with virgin parts
installed when the boards are built.  The PICs are programmed as part of the
board test procedure.  Often the per-unit cost is as little as adding a few
pads for pogo pins on the bottom of the board (along with other test points
anyway), and the extra time to perform the programming.  This is usually
5-30 seconds for most PICs, although some PICs take longer.

All in all, ICSP as part of the production test process can be very cost
effective if the circuit is designed for that up front.


******************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, (978) 742-9014.  #1 PIC
consultant in 2004 program year.  http://www.embedinc.com/products

2005\12\14@081704 by olin piclist

face picon face
Lee Jones wrote:
> Using ICD2 running from USB power, I reverted to "ICD2 Supplies
> Power" mode.  Still wouldn't bulk erase.  PIC Vdd wasn't going up
> at all.  So power from ICD2 in USB mode to target PIC is very
> low or nonexistant.  (I didn't have a external power supply handy
> to plug into the ICD2's coaxial power jack, so I don't know if
> that would have resolved the issue.)

I thought the ICD2 was not specified to supply any target power when it is
powered from USB.  It's been a while since I looked over that part of the
docs, so I may be a little off, but my first reaction would be to assume it
can't without explicitly verifying that it can.


******************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, (978) 742-9014.  #1 PIC
consultant in 2004 program year.  http://www.embedinc.com/products

2005\12\14@082947 by olin piclist

face picon face
Jesse Lackey wrote:
> The only way to successfully erase a code-protected chip is to run at
> 5V.

Just like the documentation clearly states.

> If code protect is on, the 18F parts are effectively
> one-time-programmable in a 3.3V system.

Again, you seem to be "discovering" things that are clearly spelled out in
the documentation.

> If code protect is off, it seems that it can be erased at 3.3V, with
> occasional flakyness.

Some PICs allow various partial erase procudures at lower voltages than the
total bulk erase.  The ICD2 apparently implements some of these.

> This is *EXACTLY* the problem.  Microchip didn't spell out this weird
> exception to their whole low-voltage in-circuit everything system, and
> experienced engineers, on the clock (or working for zero, if freelance)
> have gotten burned and customer money wasted and schedules missed.  Its
> not like nobody at Microchip knows about this, they just want to keep it
> under the rug.

No, the real problem is that you didn't RTFM before designing the circuit.
Everything you mentioned is well documented.  It's nobody's fault but your
own if you didn't bother reading it.  Stop whining about it being
Microchip's fault.


******************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, (978) 742-9014.  #1 PIC
consultant in 2004 program year.  http://www.embedinc.com/products

2005\12\14@083422 by olin piclist

face picon face
Lee Jones wrote:
> It is obvious ... once you know about it.  PIC 18F2220/2320/4220/4320
> data sheet, DS39599C, section 6.6 "Flash Program Operation During
> Code Protection" has 1 sentence refering you to section 23.0 (with
> a note to see 23.5 "Program Verification And Code Protection")."
>
> No where in section 23.5 "Program Verification And Code Protection"
> does it mention the 4.5V to 5.5V requirement to erase the chip.
>
> You have to read to section 23.9 "Low Voltage ICSP Programming"!
> The last sentence of that section finally mentions the restriction.
> Tucked into the regular text, with no highlighting or emphasis, are
> two sentences addressing this.  And the important one, stating the
> PIC needs 4.5V to 5.5V to do a block erase, is almost misleading
> because it qualifies it with "when using low voltage programming".
> In fact, bulk erase ALWAYS needs 4.5V to 5.5V, no matter which
> programming mode you are using.

I don't remember if I've looked at that specific programming spec, but for
the ones I have seen they show the min/max Vdd levels for bulk erase in the
electrical specifications table near the end, which seems like a reasonable
place for voltage level issues.  Someone designing a circuit for ICSP might
not read most of the algorithm descriptions, but would certainly look thru
the electrical specifications.


******************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, (978) 742-9014.  #1 PIC
consultant in 2004 program year.  http://www.embedinc.com/products

2005\12\14@085134 by alan smith

picon face
I came across this last year.....or the year before...drove me NUTS for a while
 
 Found that, but not on all parts.....once you hit it with 5V, then you can program in circuit with 3.3V

                       
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2005\12\14@091203 by Mike Harrison

flavicon
face
On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 08:31:02 -0500, you wrote:

{Quote hidden}

It is Microchip's fault that information on a relatively obscure issue is not as obvious as it
should be.
The original query was about debugging with ICD2. You should not need to read the details of the
programming spec to be able to use a debugger, and it is inexcusable that the ICD2 gives a
misleading 'programming failed' type message when it 'knows' that the supply is inadequate to do a
bulk erase and should be able to guide the user better as to what the problem is, i.e. that the
code-protect setting needs changing.



2005\12\14@092340 by Cristóvão Dalla Costa

picon face
On 12/14/05, Mike Harrison <EraseMEmikespamBeGonespamspamwhitewing.co.uk> wrote:
>
> It is Microchip's fault that information on a relatively obscure issue is not as obvious as it
> should be.
> The original query was about debugging with ICD2. You should not need to read the details of the
> programming spec to be able to use a debugger, and it is inexcusable that the ICD2 gives a
> misleading 'programming failed' type message when it 'knows' that the supply is inadequate to do a
> bulk erase and should be able to guide the user better as to what the problem is, i.e. that the
> code-protect setting needs changing.
>
>

I think the real question is: "Who debugs code protected chips?"

I can't think of a single reason to code protect chips going into
development boards. Of course, prototypes that might travel outside
the door are another issue, but on boards used for development it's
just a hindrance. And therefore it becomes a non-issue.

2005\12\14@092904 by Mike Hord

picon face
> > Using ICD2 running from USB power, I reverted to "ICD2 Supplies
> > Power" mode.  Still wouldn't bulk erase.  PIC Vdd wasn't going up
> > at all.  So power from ICD2 in USB mode to target PIC is very
> > low or nonexistant.  (I didn't have a external power supply handy
> > to plug into the ICD2's coaxial power jack, so I don't know if
> > that would have resolved the issue.)
>
> I thought the ICD2 was not specified to supply any target power when it is
> powered from USB.  It's been a while since I looked over that part of the
> docs, so I may be a little off, but my first reaction would be to assume it
> can't without explicitly verifying that it can.

You're right, of course, Olin, but I've long thought that it's kind of
ridiculous that the ICD2 can't power the target when it runs in
bus powered mode- after all, it could negotiate for up to 500 mA
from the PC, and that's enough to run a lot of my circuits.

Anything that drew more power than that I'd probably think about
self-powering anyway.  It'd be nice to do it for the tiny-power
designs, though.

Mike H.

2005\12\14@100119 by alan smith

picon face
ive got a board....just a PIC and ISP on it...nothing else.  I run it all the time from the ICD2, bccause its just a test target..
 
 But, any board that has LED's, other "stuff"....always power it from a supply.  
 
 FWIW, microchip FAE's don't recommend powering from the ICD2, probably because if you don't pay attention to the power draw, then it can act flaky and ya...we've all been there.

                       
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2005\12\14@100123 by alan smith

picon face
ive got a board....just a PIC and ISP on it...nothing else.  I run it all the time from the ICD2, bccause its just a test target..
 
 But, any board that has LED's, other "stuff"....always power it from a supply.  
 
 FWIW, microchip FAE's don't recommend powering from the ICD2, probably because if you don't pay attention to the power draw, then it can act flaky and ya...we've all been there.

                       
---------------------------------
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2005\12\14@100246 by Mike Harrison

flavicon
face
On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 12:23:39 -0200, you wrote:

>On 12/14/05, Mike Harrison <KILLspammikespamwhitewing.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> It is Microchip's fault that information on a relatively obscure issue is not as obvious as it
>> should be.
>> The original query was about debugging with ICD2. You should not need to read the details of the
>> programming spec to be able to use a debugger, and it is inexcusable that the ICD2 gives a
>> misleading 'programming failed' type message when it 'knows' that the supply is inadequate to do a
>> bulk erase and should be able to guide the user better as to what the problem is, i.e. that the
>> code-protect setting needs changing.
>>
>>
>
>I think the real question is: "Who debugs code protected chips?"
>
>I can't think of a single reason to code protect chips going into
>development boards. Of course, prototypes that might travel outside
>the door are another issue, but on boards used for development it's
>just a hindrance. And therefore it becomes a non-issue.

of course there is no need to CP while debugging, but it is entirely possible that the setting could
be there by accident or unintentional default - e.g. __Config line pasted from another project, or
doing further work on something that has been previously released to the outside world.
The latter is a particularly troublesome situation, e.g. :
1) Debug the design.
2) Set the CP option and program the chip (and maybe a few extra fresh ones out of the tube) for
prototypes.
No errors occur at this point as the chips were not previously protected.
3) A few weeks later, after testing the prototypes, go back to the project to find that programming
no longer works - you have changed no settings since programming the (previously unprotected) parts,
it just  doesn't work any more. Natural thing is to look for a hardware problem...
Much head-scratching and swearing.....

..or it could be that you had prioviosly been using ICD2 on a 5V design and not noticed the CP
state, as it wouldn't matter. Then you start a 3V design and programming fails the second time you
program the chip.



2005\12\14@131309 by Jose Da Silva

flavicon
face
On December 14, 2005 04:10 am, Olin Lathrop wrote:
> Jose Da Silva wrote:
> > Out of curiosity, if the chip is code protected, will the attempt
> > to bulk erase unprotect the chip?
>
> Yes, right after erasing all the protected content.

Thanks for also confirming.
As long as the process is erase-first, then after erasure it unprotects the chip instead of a parallel process in which enabling bulk erasure also runs a parallel process which unprotects the chip.

> > If yes, then it is definitely a grand goof-up of major concern!
>
> No, it's quite reasonable unless you want a single-use chip.

This wasn't really the point. :-)   Being a single use chip is okay, or as someone else pointed out, just develop unprotected until the time you decide to commit the program with protection, and then it becomes a single use chip.

What was of interest is that it's accidental or unexpected procedures like this which "sometimes" uncover flaws which may or may not be of concern. For example, let's say perhaps Microchip tested the chip at 3.3v and found out that reliable burns are at 4.5v or higher, therefore the spec says 4.5v, which is okay, but suppose the chip wasn't tested for code protection and someone accidentally uncovers a flaw.

In this case, Jesse Lackey, pulled out his hair on what may have exposed a problem and in his words doing a test run himself he got:

>I just tried the same thing, and got some strange results.  Blank
>check failed, reprogramming verified (!) but didn't work correctly..

this would indicate that protection appears okay.... the chip attempted to erase, didn't get very far (maybe some bits erased while others stayed burnt), and since it failed to do a proper erase, then the code protection remained in place.  Now, this would have been a problem if the code protect bit was a parallel process, in which case the bulk erase is happening at the same time as the code protect bit getting erased. Think of what would happen if someone started a bulk erase, then cut-power at the right moment.... you have a partly erased chip, but it's unprotected for what didn't get erased.

You've seen plenty of errata, so you know what I'm indicating, which is sometimes the documentation isn't exactly what happens internally, but in this case, it appears all is well in protection (as far as this test was concerned).

Cheers!

2005\12\14@140106 by Jesse Lackey

flavicon
face
In my opinion, unusual exceptions should be highlighted in the
documentation for a chip (or anything else).  In my opinion, requiring a
different minimum voltage for doing a particular kind of erase vs.
programming or "row" erase qualifies as an unusual exception, especially
since it can't be worked around in software or with the ICD2.

My primary concern was resolving what was going on with my current
design and understanding why it didn't occur in similar previous ones.

I will now stop "whining" about Microchip.  End of thread.


Olin Lathrop wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2005\12\14@175016 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Mike Harrison wrote:

> ..or it could be that you had prioviosly been using ICD2 on a 5V design
> and not noticed the CP state, as it wouldn't matter. Then you start a 3V
> design and programming fails the second time you program the chip.

Don't you put the fuse settings in the project files?

Gerhard

2005\12\14@175250 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Mike Hord wrote:

> You're right, of course, Olin, but I've long thought that it's kind of
> ridiculous that the ICD2 can't power the target when it runs in
> bus powered mode- after all, it could negotiate for up to 500 mA
> from the PC, and that's enough to run a lot of my circuits.

Yes, but as you say, it could /negotiate/ -- and it may not get it, for
example when downstream of a USB hub without own power supply. Which could
make the ICD2 behavior still more "mysterious" to some :)

Gerhard

2005\12\14@182529 by Mike Harrison

flavicon
face
On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 20:45:17 -0200, you wrote:

>Mike Harrison wrote:
>
>> ..or it could be that you had prioviosly been using ICD2 on a 5V design
>> and not noticed the CP state, as it wouldn't matter. Then you start a 3V
>> design and programming fails the second time you program the chip.
>
>Don't you put the fuse settings in the project files?

Yes.
I also often use old source files as templates for new ones, and old files may well have had the CP
set in the __config directive to generate a production file.
For 5V ICD2 projects this didn't matter.






2005\12\15@002325 by n Pergola (sent by Nabble.com)

flavicon
face

Hello Jesse,

It appears that there is hope...

Please note that it appears that many PIC18F MCUs can  be bulk erased with a Vdd voltage less  than 4.5 volts (with respect to Vss).

If still interested in this topic, take a look at this thread I posted back in August 2005 at the Microchip Forums for all the details:


ICSP Bulk Erase Vdd "Low"down: Falling trend?

http://forum.microchip.com/tm.asp?m=108526


I'm wondering if you are able to upgrade to the PIC18F2321 (after proper testing and qualification of course)? (I'm not sure if it is available yet so this post is sort of useless to you). I'd just thought I'd try to help out though...

Best regards,

Ken Pergola

P.S. I'm posting this through the Nabble interface so my apologies if this post is messed up or the link is broken.
--
Sent from the MicroControllers - PIC forum at Nabble.com:
www.nabble.com/-EE-bulk-erase-of-18F-parts-when-running-at-3.3V-can%27t-be-done-%21-t737852.html#a1952852

2005\12\15@011614 by Hector Martin

flavicon
face
Jose Da Silva wrote:
> On December 14, 2005 04:10 am, Olin Lathrop wrote:
>
>>Jose Da Silva wrote:
>>
>>>Out of curiosity, if the chip is code protected, will the attempt
>>>to bulk erase unprotect the chip?
>>
>>Yes, right after erasing all the protected content.
>
>
> Thanks for also confirming.
> As long as the process is erase-first, then after erasure it unprotects
> the chip instead of a parallel process in which enabling bulk erasure
> also runs a parallel process which unprotects the chip.
>

There have already been relatively simple ways of unprotecting a PIC.
Bunnie (the guy who hacked the xbox) did it with the 18F1320.

http://www.bunniestudios.com/?page_id=13

Read up. Interesting way microchip protected the CP bits, and
interesting workaround! (for those who don't want to read up: the config
word bit cells have metal shields on top of them to prevent selective UV
erasure.  But if you angle the chip the light seeps underneath.)

--
Hector Martin (hectorspam_OUTspamspammarcansoft.com)
Public Key: http://www.marcansoft.com/hector.asc

2005\12\15@054544 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Mike Harrison wrote:

>> Don't you put the fuse settings in the project files?
>
> I also often use old source files as templates for new ones, and old
> files may well have had the CP set in the __config directive to generate
> a production file. For 5V ICD2 projects this didn't matter.

I do the same (using previous projects as templates). But I review the
settings... code protection bits may not matter for 5 V designs, but a few
other bits do matter even for 5 V designs.

Basic rule: if it's a different design, some things may be different :)

Gerhard


'[Bulk] Re: [EE] Speedometer for the model railroad'
2006\02\14@090138 by Dave Lag
picon face
Jason wrote:
> Also, do you know of a north american supplier for a part like that?  All
> I've been able to find is something similar at qkits.com  for twice the
> price.
>
> Thanks,
>   Jason

Laipac ?


'[Bulk] RE: [EE:] New FTDI USB option'
2006\05\21@125155 by Dave Lag
picon face
Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
>>>With four I/O pins with the ability to do bit bang, is
>>
>>anybody else thinking "trivial low voltage PIC programmer"?
>>
>>>  
>>
>>I looked at that, too, but I think it is too slow to be
>>practical as a programmer.
>
>
> But maybe to download a bootloader (just once)?
>
> Wouter van Ooijen
>
> -- -------------------------------------------
> Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
> consultancy, development, PICmicro products
> docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu
>  
>
But it costs double a cheap prolific adapter?
D

2006\05\21@131833 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> But it costs double a cheap prolific adapter?

What prices (for both items) do you have in mind?

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


'[Bulk] RE: [Bulk] RE: [EE:] New FTDI USB option'
2006\05\21@151946 by Dave Lag

picon face
Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
>>But it costs double a cheap prolific adapter?
>
>
> What prices (for both items) do you have in mind?
>
> Wouter van Ooijen
>
> -- -------------------------------------------
> Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
> consultancy, development, PICmicro products
> docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu
>  
>
From Dennys link - buy it now:
http://apple.clickandbuild.com/cnb/shop/ftdichip?op=catalogue-products-null&prodCategoryID=47&title=Cables:+TTL-232R

11 pounds(where is that symbol?) to buy
I think I see cheap prolifics here around $13
D

'[Bulk] RE: [EE:] New FTDI USB option'
2006\05\21@170107 by Philip Pemberton

face picon face
In message <44709AC5.4060904spamspam@spam@rogers.com>
         Dave Lag <spamBeGonedavescomputer.....spamrogers.com> wrote:

> But it costs double a cheap prolific adapter?

But the cheap Prolific chip is cheap for a reason. Specifically, it has
trouble at high speeds and the buffering logic is a little iffy.

One of these days I'll get an FTDI demo board or something to play with...

--
Phil.                         | Kitsune: Acorn RiscPC SA202 64M+6G VF+UniPod
.....philpem@spam@spamdsl.pipex.com         | Cheetah: Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxeV2 1G+180G
http://www.philpem.me.uk/     | Tiger: Toshiba SatPro4600 Celeron700 256M+40G

'[Bulk] RE: [Bulk] RE: [EE:] New FTDI USB option'
2006\05\21@175903 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> 11 pounds(where is that symbol?) to buy I think I see cheap prolifics
here around $13

GBP is a good alternative

OK, I assumed you were comparing the bare chip, which is a lot cheaper
than a prolific converter. (E 7.15 in my shop, maybe cheaper elsewhere).

Of course, a mass-production item like a USB-to-RS232 is cheaper than a
specialty like a USB-to-serial-TTL, even when it contains one chip less.

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu


'[Bulk] RE: [EE:] New FTDI USB option'
2006\05\21@190937 by Mike Harrison

flavicon
face
On Sun, 21 May 2006 21:57:33 +0100, you wrote:

>In message <@spam@44709AC5.4060904spamrogers.com>
>          Dave Lag <davescomputerRemoveMEspamrogers.com> wrote:
>
>> But it costs double a cheap prolific adapter?
>
>But the cheap Prolific chip is cheap for a reason. Specifically, it has
>trouble at high speeds and the buffering logic is a little iffy.
>
>One of these days I'll get an FTDI demo board or something to play with...

The other big advantages of the FTDI chip are that you can get away from the limitations of COM port
emulation using their dedicated (D2xx) drivers, and you can customise the install files and VID/PID
to make it look like a 'proper' custom USB device when installed.




2006\05\21@193904 by Dave Lag

picon face
Philip Pemberton wrote:
> In message <spam44709AC5.4060904spamrogers.com>
>           Dave Lag <davescomputerspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTrogers.com> wrote:
>
>
>>But it costs double a cheap prolific adapter?
>
>
> But the cheap Prolific chip is cheap for a reason. Specifically, it has
> trouble at high speeds and the buffering logic is a little iffy.
>
> One of these days I'll get an FTDI demo board or something to play with...
>
Agreed, but the topic had kinda morphed into
"cheap programmer just to install bootloader code"...

2006\05\21@201207 by Denny Esterline

picon face
<snip>
[FTDI serial cable assembly stuff..]
<snip>
> >
> But it costs double a cheap prolific adapter?
> D

Sure, but it's not just a RS232 - USB adaptor. It's a USB to TTL level serial with a cable and connectors. In application if I were to use a "normal" USB-RS232 adaptor I have to add level conversion and a DB9 connector on my board then plug several cables together. This is certainly simpler, though at $20 it's about the same, maybe a little more.

Most of us probabaly have a little board (or several) lying on our bench that we use for serial level conversion (James even sells them! http://www.piclist.com/techref/io/serial/RCL1.htm). Instead of using one of these and a USB converter, now it's one part USB -> TTL serial.

PLUS, it _might_ have the ability to do simple bit bang output capable of low voltage programming. The thought was if a programmer like Wouter's WISP had a second connector and was made capable of being LVP, one could use this to bit bang the programmer's PIC, then recconect the adaptor to the UART pins and use normal serial to program other parts. It relates back to the "chicken and egg" discussion about decent programmers require a programmed microcontroller.

-Denny


'[Bulk] RE: [Bulk] RE: [EE:] New FTDI USB option'
2006\05\22@045635 by Vitaliy

flavicon
face
Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
> OK, I assumed you were comparing the bare chip, which is a lot cheaper
> than a prolific converter. (E 7.15 in my shop, maybe cheaper elsewhere).
>
> Of course, a mass-production item like a USB-to-RS232 is cheaper than a
> specialty like a USB-to-serial-TTL, even when it contains one chip less.

FT232R is around $2.50 in bulk quantities (1000+), AFAIK currently it's the
least expensive USB to serial UART converter IC on the market (based on last
week's research). And the fact that it only needs two decoupling caps makes
it ideal for replacing Maxim ICs in situations where a COM port is not
available.

Best regards,

Vitaliy

'[Bulk] RE: [EE:] New FTDI USB option'
2006\05\22@130548 by Mike Hord

picon face
> <snip>
> [FTDI serial cable assembly stuff..]
> <snip>
> > >
> > But it costs double a cheap prolific adapter?
> > D
>
> Sure, but it's not just a RS232 - USB adaptor. It's a USB to TTL level serial with a cable and connectors. In application if I were to use a "normal" USB-RS232 adaptor I have to add level conversion and a DB9 connector on my board then plug several cables together. This is certainly simpler, though at $20 it's about the same, maybe a little more.

PLUS (again), it doesn't seem to have the "snake-digesting-a-pig"
bulge in the middle that most prolific cables do.  That alone is
pretty cool- I'm designing a USB->project connection right now that
was probably going to require a "pig-in-snake" cable for USB->isolated
serial, but I can now have the proprietary end put on this and put the
isolation on my target.  No more pig!

Gets a rousing thumbs up from me!

Mike H.

2006\05\24@073752 by Byron A Jeff

face picon face
On Sun, May 21, 2006 at 12:52:21PM -0400, Dave Lag wrote:
> Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
> >>>With four I/O pins with the ability to do bit bang, is
> >>
> >>anybody else thinking "trivial low voltage PIC programmer"?
> >>
> >>>  
> >>
> >>I looked at that, too, but I think it is too slow to be
> >>practical as a programmer.

> > But maybe to download a bootloader (just once)?
> >
> > Wouter van Ooijen
> But it costs double a cheap prolific adapter?
> D

True. However if it keeps banged bits in sync, it's probably
worth the cost. The problem with most cheap USB to serial
cables is that you have no sync guarantees of modem control
signals. The FTDI cable specifically has a bit bang I/O mode.
If it maintains syncronization between those bits (a big IF
I must admit) then it's probably worth the cost difference.

BAJ


'[EE]: CrimpAll crimp tool bulk order (was Molex KK'
2006\06\21@112151 by Philip Pemberton
face picon face
I've just got an email back from one of the sales reps at Anixter UK
(one of Paladin's UK distributors). They've quoted me £22.60 for the Crimpall
8000 (no crimping die) and £10.47 for the Molex crimping die; a total of
£33.07 for the set. The catch is, their minimum order is £50. So I need to
find a way to pad that order out a bit.

Are any other PICLISTers interested in ordering one of these? I'm going to
try and get some prices for the other crimping dies (RJ45 and RJ1x) as well,
but for now is anyone interested in the crimping tool and/or Molex crimping
die?

Alternatively, if you're not after a Crimpall, but do want something else
that's listed in Anixter's online catalogue, let me know - that's just as
good as far as I'm concerned. Alternatively, if you're placing an order with
Anixter and don't mind ordering some stuff on my behalf and forwarding it on
when it arrives, that's good too :)

Anixter's URL is <http://www.anixter.com/>. Click the "eCatalogue" link at
the bottom if you want, but they don't list the Crimpall dies on the website.
I would hazard a guess that they can probably supply anything listed on
Paladin's website (<http://www.paladin-tools.com>), but I haven't asked about
anything other than the CrimpAll.

My email is user 'philpem' at the domain 'philpem.me.uk' for anyone
interested in participating, or anyone wanting more information or to suggest
other items that might be worth ordering.

If you're going to reply by email, please set the message subject to "PICLIST
CrimpAll Bulk Order" or something similar (makes it easier to find the
messages in my very cluttered inbox).

Thanks.
--
Phil.                         | Kitsune: Acorn RiscPC SA202 64M+6G VF+UniPod
spam_OUTphilpem@spam@spamRemoveMEdsl.pipex.com         | Cheetah: Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxeV2 1G+180G
http://www.philpem.me.uk/     | Tiger: Toshiba SatPro4600 Celeron700 256M+40G


'[Bulk] RE: [OT] Free energy yada yada'
2006\08\22@111809 by Dave Lag
picon face
Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
>>I just KNOW that this was a waste of my time, bi\ut I posted
>>this on a
>>Steorn forum thread that I started. I'm sure to get roundly
>>abused for it.
>
>
> Two thumbs up for a nice reading (it was even worth switching to IE to
> see it all).
>

You do realize they can now take snippets of your post out of context as
another endorsement :)

'[Bulk] RE: [EE] Water filled lightbulb'
2006\08\29@103540 by Dave Lag

picon face
Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
> A 9V battery is for sissies, a
> real man uses two 1.5V cells, or one, or just a potato with two metal
> strips.

Can we substitute Jinx's fish?


'[Bulk] Re: [EE]: tips for new lab'
2006\09\26@012240 by Robert Ammerman
picon face
Digital microscopes that output to either a computer (can you say Web Cam?)
or a standard video signal are not very expensive nowadays.

If you can get used to looking at the screen while working on the itsy bitsy
stuff it might be a good way to go.

Of course this '"Look one way while working in another direction" is exactly
what doctors do when using various kinds of 'scopes' poked into various
parts of the human body.

Bob Ammerman
RAm  Systems

{Original Message removed}


'[BUY] Bulk Programming Service for 9000 SOT23 Pic1'
2007\09\25@231104 by Simon Dyer
picon face
I'm in need of a professional programming service for 9000 x PIC10F,
preferably Singapore, but other locations okay.

This needs to be done over the next two weeks !  



Microchip can't deliver this before we go line down ( Order placed two
weeks ago )



Please advise if you know of an experienced company to support this

2007\09\25@234034 by Roger, in Bangkok

face
flavicon
face
Hi Simon--

Do you need to source the chips as well as the programming?

Regards/Roger, in Bangkok

On 9/26/07, Simon Dyer <spamSimon.Dyerspamspamtrimble.co.nz> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2007\09\26@001320 by Simon Dyer

picon face
Roger having trouble replying to my own thread - please email direct if
you can assist to

@spam@Simon.Dyerspam_OUTspamparadise.net.nz


'[Bulk] Re: [PIC] 10F gadgets suggestions'
2008\09\19@153833 by Isaac Marino Bavaresco
flavicon
face
Wouter van Ooijen escreveu:
> Mike Hord wrote:
>  
>> I keep planning to make a 10F powered LED candle with a non-contact
>> switch, so I can put it inside of a lamp hanging from the ceiling and turn
>> it on and off with a magnetic wand.
>>    
>
> reed-switch? hall-sensor?
>
> Nice, but the mechanical aspect is a big part of the challenge!
>
> (And if you want to put it inside a mains-power lamp: getting the low
> voltage for the PIC from the mains voltage...)
That's easy, just use a transformerless capacitive power supply. Works
fine if all the circuit is isolated from the user.
__________________________________________________
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'[Bulk] Re: [PIC] Transients when setting an output'
2008\11\03@121108 by Isaac Marino Bavaresco
flavicon
face
Wouter van Ooijen escreveu:
{Quote hidden}

All you need is to disable the interrupts before and re-enable after the
sequence.
Sometimes you don't have a choice.

For absolutely most uses, this very short period (4 TCy including
disabling and re-enabling time) with interrupts off will not degrade the
performance:

bsf shadow,0
bcf INTCON,GIE
movfw shadow
movwf PORTx
bsf INTCON,GIE

The interrupt latency will increase at most by 3 TCy.

__________________________________________________
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2008\11\03@132951 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> bsf shadow,0
> bcf INTCON,GIE
> movfw shadow
> movwf PORTx
> bsf INTCON,GIE
>
> The interrupt latency will increase at most by 3 TCy.

True, but that sequence works only if interrupts were disabled at the
start.

--

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

'[Bulk] Re: [Bulk] Re: [PIC] Transients when settin'
2008\11\03@145019 by Isaac Marino Bavaresco

flavicon
face
Wouter van Ooijen escreveu:
>> bsf shadow,0
>> bcf INTCON,GIE
>> movfw shadow
>> movwf PORTx
>> bsf INTCON,GIE
>>
>> The interrupt latency will increase at most by 3 TCy.
>>    
>
> True, but that sequence works only if interrupts were disabled at the
> start.
>  
If you analyze it well, you may notice that this will work, because the
bsf is atomic and the ISR must use the shadow the same way the main
routine does (without the interrupts disabling/enabling of course).

If the ISR sets/clears any pin other than the one changed by the main
routine, it will just commit the change made by the main routine.

If the ISR changes the same pin to the opposite value, then you will
lose a "glitch" in the pin (the main routine would have set the pin and
the ISR would immediately clear it). If you really need this "glitch",
then you need to disable the interrupts one instruction earlier.

For most applications, such "glitch" is not useful (sometimes it is
nasty indeed). LEDs, Relays, Motors and the like are better off without
the glitch.

For inter-devices communication, one may need it, but I would hardly
depend on such a indeterministic approach. Unless you are really
tweaking things (if you know exactly when the interrupt is going to
occur, to generate a precisely timed pulse for instance), there are
better options.

__________________________________________________
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2008\11\03@153244 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
>>> bcf INTCON,GIE
>>> movfw shadow
>>> movwf PORTx
>>> bsf INTCON,GIE
>>>
>>> The interrupt latency will increase at most by 3 TCy.
>>>    
>> True, but that sequence works only if interrupts were disabled at the
>> start.
>>  
> If you analyze it well, you may notice that this will work, because the
> bsf is atomic and the ISR must use the shadow the same way the main
> routine does (without the interrupts disabling/enabling of course).

What I meant was that the sequence enables interrupts, even when
interrupts were initially disabled. Hence it is not Ok for a
general-purpose 'flush the shadow to the port' routine.

--

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

'[Bulk] Re: [EE] Re: [PIC] <-- Wazzup ? ::'
2008\11\03@192657 by apptech

face
flavicon
face
What's this [Bulk] tag-wannabee?
Maybe there's a hole in my brain where the information should be, but I
don't believe this is a valid tag.

If not then the message will instead go to any valid tags on the subject
line.
ie this one will go to [EE] and [PIC] as I understand things.

I'm doing that as [bulk] is turning up in [EE] and [PIC] so this addresses
both those tag areas. Multi-tagging is, of course, frowned on.

Can posters please arrange for subject lines to contain only one valid tag.

[There is in fact no "rule" about them containing invalid 'tags' as they
have no effect on mail direction.]
[ If a poster INTENDS eg [BULK][PIC] to go to [PIC] then that actually
doesn't break any rules].




  R

2008\11\09@130300 by Vitaliy

flavicon
face
apptech wrote:
> What's this [Bulk] tag-wannabee?

It's akin to [SPAM], they both get inserted in the subject line by the
anti-spam software. I usually clean up the subject line if Spam Assassin
incorrectly tags a message.

Vitaliy

'[Bulk] Re: [PIC] How secure are bootloaders?'
2008\11\17@054835 by Isaac Marino Bavaresco

flavicon
face
Wouter van Ooijen escreveu:
>>> I know I would like to avoid "securty by obscurity", in other words
>>> I'd like it to be difficult to crack the code even if the attacker
>>> understands the encryption mechanism. However, I am not at all sure
>>> where to begin. The only good news is, I have plenty of time to do
>>> the research. :)
>>>      
>> Having just done a university unit that included error correcting codes, I
>> get the impression that one could use an error correcting code to obfusicate
>> the downloadable data.
>>    
>
> Which is exactly *not* what is asked for. Obfuscating works - if at all
> - only when the opponent does not know the algorithm.

I use AES (128-bit symmetric key cryptography) with authentication, so
nobody else can upload anything to my hardware.

__________________________________________________
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2008\11\17@062330 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> I use AES (128-bit symmetric key cryptography) with authentication, so
> nobody else can upload anything to my hardware.

This might be a good choice, but

- is "nobody else can upload anything to my hardware" the real issue? I
would guess most people are more concerned about a third party copying
their software to cloned hardware.

- don't be too firm about your statement. two PICs with the bootloaders,
a few $1000 (or $10k's, I have no first-hand experience) will get me the
dump of your chips. Illegal, and costly, but not difficult.

--

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

2008\11\17@145305 by Vitaliy

flavicon
face
Wouter van Ooijen wrote:
>> I use AES (128-bit symmetric key cryptography) with authentication, so
>> nobody else can upload anything to my hardware.
>
> This might be a good choice, but
>
> - is "nobody else can upload anything to my hardware" the real issue? I
> would guess most people are more concerned about a third party copying
> their software to cloned hardware.

Yes, that's exactly my concern. I'm less concerned with people uploading
their code to the chip, because the PIC I'm using has CodeGuard.


> - don't be too firm about your statement. two PICs with the bootloaders,
> a few $1000 (or $10k's, I have no first-hand experience) will get me the
> dump of your chips. Illegal, and costly, but not difficult.

I hear this sort of thing is easier to do on the lower end PICs. Were there
any reports of 24H or 33F devices being broken this way?


Vitaliy

2008\11\17@152002 by Vitaliy

flavicon
face
Isaac Marino Bavaresco wrote:
--------------
I use AES (128-bit symmetric key cryptography) with authentication, so
nobody else can upload anything to my hardware.
--------------

Do you think the standard Microchip libraries are good enough to use in a
simple bootloader?

http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/AppNotes/01044a.pdf

I'm not familiar with the AES algorithm, what would be the penalty in going
from 128-bit to 256-bit encryption, in terms of execution speed and code
size?

Vitaliy

2008\11\17@171633 by Isaac Marino Bavaresco

flavicon
face
Vitaliy escreveu:
> Isaac Marino Bavaresco wrote:
> --------------
> I use AES (128-bit symmetric key cryptography) with authentication, so
> nobody else can upload anything to my hardware.
> --------------
>
> Do you think the standard Microchip libraries are good enough to use in a
> simple bootloader?
>
> http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/AppNotes/01044a.pdf
>
> I'm not familiar with the AES algorithm, what would be the penalty in going
> from 128-bit to 256-bit encryption, in terms of execution speed and code
> size?
>
> Vitaliy
>  
I wrote my AES routines based on the Microchip's Application Note (don´t
remember the number) for PIC16 MCUs (assembly language).

I ported it to Hi-Tech PICC, Hi-Tech PICC-18 and MPLAB-C18 (all for asm
and C) and MPLAB-C30 (asm only).

In a PIC16 MCU it can encrypt one 16-byte block in less than 1ms @ 20MHz
(600 micro-second +-).
Decryption is somewhat slower.

Uses some FLASH though (over 1K word). And about 40 bytes RAM.

To go 256-bit may triple the time (2 x key size x 40% more rounds). Must
test.

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'[OT]storage of bulk smt components?'
2008\11\21@160411 by Artie Jones

picon face
Hi all,

I have been given a tremendous quantity of surface mount components, left
over from a commercial operation. There are anywhere from 100 to 1000 of
each value, although there are some sandwich sized ziplock bags that are
nearly full!!!!!!! They are all resistors and capacitors, so static is not
an issue. There are 4 boxes of these parts, the vast majority are 0805 and
0603 size. The shipping weight oft he boxes was around 30 pounds each, there
are 3 boxes! And the components are bulk packed, not on reels so there are
literally millions of parts.

They are sealed in ziplock bags of various sizes, but I need some way to
store them in smaller quantities, perhaps 100 or so parts for each value.
The problem is I can't find the value I need easily!!!! I need something a
like a container or plastic box with small compartments, so I can pull some
of each value and put them in the compartments so I can keep it in the
workshop and not have to struggle to find the values I need when I need
them.

Can anyone suggest inexpensive containers that might be suitable for this
purpose??? Storage containers should be inexpensive.

Any ideas??

Thanks,

T

2008\11\21@161349 by Carl Denk

flavicon
face
Suggest looking at Akromills manufacturer, some of the dealers are:

www.usplastic.com/catalog/category.asp?catalog_name=USPlastic&category_name=25398&Page=1&gclid=CKq46fqXh5cCFSCysgod0Hq4-A&cookie_test=1
and http://www.graingers.com

The later has huge warehouses located all over the USA and like you
would receive next day.
Artie Jones wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2008\11\21@161551 by PAUL James

picon face

Artie,

Go to Wal-Mart or your local photo shop and see if you can pick up some
35mm film containers.
Most of these are sort of a dark gray or black color with either a white
or gray top.
I have used these to house many SMT components over the years, and still
have a number of them in my lab.
The last time I got any was earlier this year.  Imy daughter worked at
Wal-Mart for a while late last year
and earlier this year, so I had her ask the people in the photo dept. to
save them for me.  They did.
I have probably gotten about 100 or so over the last 12-14 months.  And
they were free.
Give it a shot.  

If you can';t get any of them, you could always try Wal-Mart for divided
plastic boxes.  They're in the crafts
Section, and usually have 12-20 small compartments.  They're being sold
as a Bead Storage Box, but they work
Well for things other than beads.

I believe Fry's also has boxes of this type.
       
Regards,

       
Jim

{Original Message removed}

2008\11\21@163905 by Peter Loron

flavicon
face
Another option:

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.4580
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.4727

-Pete

On Nov 21, 2008, at 1:15 PM, PAUL James wrote:

{Quote hidden}

> {Original Message removed}

2008\11\21@170847 by Dwayne Reid

flavicon
face
Have a look at eBay item 220300124845

Although I don't see just the enclosure itself listed for sale, I
have purchased empty enclosures from them for $19.99 each.

FWIW - their 1% resistor assortments are reasonable value.  The cases
are solid and I haven't managed to empty any of the constents onto
the floor, even though they have been dropped many times.

dwayne


At 02:04 PM 11/21/2008, Artie Jones wrote:

>I have been given a tremendous quantity of surface mount components, left
>over from a commercial operation. There are anywhere from 100 to 1000 of
>each value, although there are some sandwich sized ziplock bags that are
>nearly full!!!!!!!


--
Dwayne Reid   <.....dwaynerspam.....planet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
(780) 489-3199 voice          (780) 487-6397 fax
http://www.trinity-electronics.com
Custom Electronics Design and Manufacturing

2008\11\21@233755 by John Ferrell

face picon face
I am beginning to store tiny parts in plastic envelopes (zip type) that are
then filed in small boxes. The biggest advantage is that you don't have to
store empty space. They are easy to identify with a slip of paper in the
envelope. EBAY is a good source for assorted sizes of Plastic envelopes
cheap.
John Ferrell    W8CCW

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing." -- Edmund Burke
http://DixieNC.US

{Original Message removed}

2008\11\24@111108 by Jeff Findley

flavicon
face

"Carl Denk" <spamcdenkKILLspamspamalltel.net> wrote in message
news:RemoveME49272484.8010709RemoveMEspamalltel.net...
> Suggest looking at Akromills manufacturer, some of the dealers are:
>
> www.usplastic.com/catalog/category.asp?catalog_name=USPlastic&category_name=25398&Page=1&gclid=CKq46fqXh5cCFSCysgod0Hq4-A&cookie_test=1
> and http://www.graingers.com
>

Akro-Mils makes great products.  My favorite product line from them is their
drawer systems, like this:

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/3AJ39

Another, possibly cheaper, solution is fishing tackle boxes.  Take a look at
your local sporting goods store.  The ones I like for electronics component
storage are $5 each.

Jeff
--
beb - To paraphrase Stephen Colbert, reality has an anti-Ares I bias.




2008\11\24@151922 by Philip Pemberton

face
flavicon
face
Artie Jones wrote:
> Can anyone suggest inexpensive containers that might be suitable for this
> purpose??? Storage containers should be inexpensive.

I've been using the Raaco A45 and A46 boxes for component storage -- they're
fine for larger SMDs, as long as you push the orange dividers down all the way
(they're a bit stiff and tend not to go all the way down). I've had issues
with 0805 parts slipping under the dividers and getting mixed up though. A bit
of hot glue or Araldite sorts it, but for what they cost they aren't up to much.

The A4 Assorter boxes are much better built, and have separate moulded
compartments (no dividers). Not as versatile, but less risk of SMDs getting
mixed up. They are expensive though (which is why I've only got two of them!)

Maplin have recently started stocking these:
http://www.maplin.co.uk/module.aspx?moduleno=26150

They're relatively cheap, the dividers are movable and lock into the plastic
with a nice 'snap', and there's no gap between the divider and the box itself.
 I've been using them for resistor kits -- one box will divide into twelve
compartments that are just the right size for axial-leaded resistors on paper
strips. Three boxes are enough to cover the E12 range from 10R to 1Meg.

I tend to keep SMDs on the plastic or paper tapes though, with a written label
on the tape to ID them (usually just a Farnell stock number, component value
and size -- e.g. "MF25 680R 123-4567 RoHS" = metal film 1/4W, 680 ohms, P/N
123-4567, RoHS compliant). I tend to use a silver or gold paint marker for
black plastic tapes and a black Stabilo Write4All for the paper tapes. Works
pretty well for the most part, but the silver/gold marker tends to wear off
after a lot of handling. The black marker, not so much.

--
Phil.
KILLspampiclist.....spamKILLspamphilpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/

2008\11\24@160523 by John Day

flavicon
face
At 03:19 PM 11/24/2008, you wrote:
>Artie Jones wrote:
> > Can anyone suggest inexpensive containers that might be suitable for this
> > purpose??? Storage containers should be inexpensive.

I have bene using this style of container:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&amp;item=270172299622&amp;ssPageName=ADME:B:EF:US:1123
for some time. They come in several sizes and colours. I have black
ones that are anti-static as well as the colours. Each one is totally
separate so that you can re-arrange them when you need to add another
value in the resistor tray.

I usually keep them in blocks of 50 ( 5 x 10 ) which is really
convenient to put on the bench when I am loading a board. Because
they are separate they can never "bleed" form one compartment to the
other, and each one has a lid which is held by a spring. The larger
sizes are great for things like connectors, switches, push-buttons
etc. The little ones are fine even for things like SOT-23 and SOT-223
transistors and regulators.

Just label the lid with a permanent marker.

John


{Quote hidden}

>

2008\11\24@183607 by Michael Algernon

flavicon
face

> I have been given a tremendous quantity of surface mount components,  
> left
> over from a commercial operation. There are anywhere from 100 to  
> 1000 of
> each value, although there are some sandwich sized ziplock bags that  
> are
> nearly full!!!!!!!

I put parts in ZipLoc bags.  You can get them at many stores.  You can  
also order smaller ones.  I have some that are 2 inches by 4 inches.  
I use a black marker to write values on the bags.  I can see in the  
bags to see how many parts are left.  I put the bags in manila folders  
in my filing system.  Multiple bags in each folder based on grouping  
values.
The parts that don't go into the small bags get thrown in file boxes  
to replenish the small bags later.  You can also put the filled manila  
folders in file boxes.

This is how I store samples as well.  I give the incoming samples a  
sequential number ( Snnnnn ) and put a bunch of them in one manila  
folder, sometimes with datasheets.  My database ( Filemaker ) links  
the part number with the sequential number.  I also link parts with  
projects using Filemaker.  Just entering the part number followed by a  
sequential number on one line of a spreadsheet or text document allows  
you to search for sample parts.  You can add manufacturer names and  
other stuff to the line.

A suggestion.  Sell them in bulk on eBay and use the money to get the  
parts you really want.
MA

WFT Electronics
Denver, CO   720 222 1309
" dent the UNIVERSE "

All ideas, text, drawings and audio , that are originated by WFT  
Electronics ( and it's principals ),  that are included with this  
signature text are to be deemed to be released to the public domain as  
of the date of this communication .

2008\11\25@230559 by John Ferrell

face picon face
Reference at ebay is no longer available, do you have another pointer?
John Ferrell    W8CCW

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing." -- Edmund Burke
http://DixieNC.US

{Original Message removed}

2008\11\26@042732 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Reference at ebay is no longer available, do you have another pointer?

I got that too, just copy the item number out of the link, and use that as
the search item found it.

2008\11\26@182140 by Philip Pemberton

face
flavicon
face
John Day wrote:
> I have bene using this style of container:
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&amp;item=270172299622&amp;ssPageName=ADME:B:EF:US:1123
> for some time. They come in several sizes and colours. I have black
> ones that are anti-static as well as the colours. Each one is totally
> separate so that you can re-arrange them when you need to add another
> value in the resistor tray.

I've just found these:
http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=26133&&source=14&doy=26m11

Which are similar, but apparently sold as one solid block, not as
snap-apart-and-clip-together modules.

The ones you linked to are nice, but importing any significant quantity of
them is likely to be somewhat costly. These appear to be a bit cheaper, and
possibly more suitable for e.g. SMD resistors due to the smaller size:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320317490567

£12.50 for a 50-bin SMD storage box doesn't seem bad to me.

> Just label the lid with a permanent marker.

I already do that. Thank $DEITY for Sharpie markers!

--
Phil.
KILLspampiclistspam@spam@philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/

2008\11\26@192455 by Alexandre Guimarães

face picon face
Hi,

       The ones from Maplin seems very similar to some "pill box " I bought
a while ago and the problem with them is that there is to much space between
"the lid" and "the box" when they are closed. 0805 components fall when you
"tumble" the box.

       What I use are small, transparent, round boxes that are used, here
in Brazil, for make-up. They "screw" one in top of the other. They are very
nice to use and fairly cheap.


Best Regards,
Alexandre Guimaraes

-----Mensagem original-----
De: @spam@piclist-bouncesRemoveMEspammit.edu [piclist-bounces@spam@spamEraseMEmit.edu] Em nome de
Philip Pemberton
Enviada em: quarta-feira, 26 de novembro de 2008 21:21
Para: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Assunto: Re: [OT]storage of bulk smt components?

John Day wrote:
> I have bene using this style of container:
> cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&amp;item=270172299622&am
> p;ssPageName=ADME:B:EF:US:1123 for some time. They come in several
> sizes and colours. I have black ones that are anti-static as well as
> the colours. Each one is totally separate so that you can re-arrange
> them when you need to add another value in the resistor tray.

I've just found these:
http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=26133&&source=14&doy=26m11

Which are similar, but apparently sold as one solid block, not as
snap-apart-and-clip-together modules.

The ones you linked to are nice, but importing any significant quantity of
them is likely to be somewhat costly. These appear to be a bit cheaper, and
possibly more suitable for e.g. SMD resistors due to the smaller size:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320317490567

£12.50 for a 50-bin SMD storage box doesn't seem bad to me.

> Just label the lid with a permanent marker.

I already do that. Thank $DEITY for Sharpie markers!

--
Phil.
spam_OUTpiclistspam_OUTspamRemoveMEphilpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/

2008\11\27@081213 by John Day

flavicon
face
At 11:06 PM 11/25/2008, you wrote:
>Reference at ebay is no longer available, do you have another pointer?
>John Ferrell    W8CCW

http://stores.ebay.com/Good-helper search SMD storage
http://stores.ebay.com/toolssales again search SMD storage

They seem to be available ins several varieties from a number of sellers.

John


>"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
>nothing." -- Edmund Burke
>http://DixieNC.US
>
>{Original Message removed}

'[Bulk] Re: [PIC] default configuration bits'
2008\11\27@120320 by Isaac Marino Bavaresco

flavicon
face
Wouter van Ooijen escreveu:
>> Olin, do you think 1 - is factory programming value, or is value at POR
>> (see page 25 of the programming spec, DS41244E)?
>>    
>
> POR is not relevant: power cycling a PIC does not affect the state of
> configuration bits (or other flash-stored bits). It is the 'after erase'
> that is relevant.
>
>  
>> Finally, I don't think that PIC come with a known state of Configuration
>> Bits.
>>    
>
> Chips are sold in erased state.
>  
This don't matter either, because your programmer almost surely (just to
not say "surely") will erase the part before programming (my Picstart
Plus and ICD2 always do). Even if it doesn't, you may do a chip erase
before programming.

As a note, I already received PIC samples from a local Microchip
distributor already programmed with other people's program (not code
protected).
It appeared to be the control firmware for a breath alcohol tester
(there was ASCII strings with messages).



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2008\11\27@124941 by olin piclist

face picon face
Isaac Marino Bavaresco wrote:
> As a note, I already received PIC samples from a local Microchip
> distributor already programmed with other people's program (not code
> protected).
> It appeared to be the control firmware for a breath alcohol tester
> (there was ASCII strings with messages).

This is not something I would not let slide unless these were free samples
and they told you they might be pre-used.  In some products the PIC could be
programmed in circuit using low voltage programming and rely on the fact
that LVP has not been disabled.

This is above and beyond expecting new parts that haven't been abused in
non-obvious ways.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\11\27@133834 by olin piclist

face picon face
Olin Lathrop wrote:
> This is not something I would not let slide

Oops, one too many "not".


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\11\27@141208 by Isaac Marino Bavaresco

flavicon
face
Olin Lathrop escreveu:
> Isaac Marino Bavaresco wrote:
>  
>> As a note, I already received PIC samples from a local Microchip
>> distributor already programmed with other people's program (not code
>> protected).
>> It appeared to be the control firmware for a breath alcohol tester
>> (there was ASCII strings with messages).
>>    
>
> This is not something I would not let slide unless these were free samples
> and they told you they might be pre-used.  In some products the PIC could be
> programmed in circuit using low voltage programming and rely on the fact
> that LVP has not been disabled.
>
> This is above and beyond expecting new parts that haven't been abused in
> non-obvious ways.
>
>  

I don't know if those were free samples, a friend of mine got three
parts (from the distributor) so I could make a prototype for him.

Certainly a client ordered to the distributor a batch of preprogrammed
parts with his own code, somebody forgot to turn on the code protection
and somebody took three (or more?) parts from the batch and sent to my
friend as samples.

I think about what the code's owner would think if he discovered that
his code leaked this way...


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'[OT]storage of bulk smt components?'
2008\12\02@114147 by Jonathan Hallameyer
picon face
Seconded on the cubic configurable boxes from DX, I've gone though 150
at home,  and have ordered 200 more :p

stock up :)

www.all-spec.com/1/viewitem/SM0874/ALLSPEC/prodinfo/w3path=cat
ESD safe ones if anyone needs them, or wants to make work pay for them :p
--
Jonathan Hallameyer

On 11/21/08, Peter Loron <RemoveMEpeterlspam.....standingwave.org> wrote:
> Another option:
>
> http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.4580
> http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.4727
>
> -Pete

'[Bulk] Re: [PIC] Interrupt on Change Pin'
2008\12\08@053542 by Isaac Marino Bavaresco

flavicon
face
William "Chops" Westfield escreveu:
> On Dec 7, 2008, at 6:01 PM, solarwind wrote:
>  
>> http://pastebin.com/f286b7121
>>    
>
>
>          GIE = 0;                //(INTCON[7]) Disable global interrupts
>          RABIE = 1;              //(INTCON[3]) Enable PORTA/PORTB  
> change interrupt
>          RABIF = 0;              //(INTCON[0]) Change interrupt flag  
> bit - clear
>          C1ON = 0;               //Disable comparators 1 and 2
>          C2ON = 0;
>
> Hmm.  Those are sort of interesting, since the left-side symbols are  
> single bits.  Does HTC actually let you do that sort of thing?  I  


Yes, it is perfectly legal and compiles to bsf and bcf instructions.

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'[Bulk] [PIC] dump two chars into UART'
2009\01\19@201336 by Isaac Marino Bavaresco
flavicon
face
Wouter van Ooijen escreveu:
> If I understand the PIC UART correctly, the TXSTA_TRMT flag indicates
> that the shift register is empty. So if I find this condition, I think I
> should be able to write *two* bytes to the TXREG. The first immediately
> transfers to the TSR (shift register), the second waits until the first
> is shifted out. Can anyone confirm tfrom actual experience that this works?
>  

Yes, it is exactly this way.

If you have TXIE enabled and in each call of the ISR you send just one
byte, you will get two consecutive interrupts (the PIC will return from
the first interrupt call, execute one instruction and call the interrupt
again).

Please note that you cannot clear TXIF by software. The only way to
avoid the interrupt from being called is to keep TXREG and TSR full,
disable GIE or disable TXIE.

If you are using interrupts, you must disable TXIE inside the ISR when
you put the last data byte of a sequence and re-enable it when you want
to start a new transmission sequence.

Best regards,

Isaac
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2009\01\20@024410 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
> Yes, it is exactly this way.

you know form experience?

> If you are using interrupts, you must disable TXIE inside the ISR when
> you put the last data byte of a sequence and re-enable it when you want
> to start a new transmission sequence.

I don't use interrupts. But it would be very convenient (time critical
code) to write to bytes at a time.

I'll try.

--

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

'[Bulk] Re: [Bulk] [PIC] dump two chars into UART'
2009\01\20@064626 by Isaac Marino Bavaresco

flavicon
face
Wouter van Ooijen escreveu:
>> Yes, it is exactly this way.
>>    
>
> you know form experience?
>  

Yes.

{Quote hidden}

You must test TXIF before sending each byte. If your code is not too
slow, probably you will be able to put two characters into TXREG in the
same loop iteration only in the first run. Probably in the next
iteration the chars will not be transmitted yet.

I like the interrupt approach. I set a circular buffer that the
application fills and the ISR empties. When transmitting the last char
the ISR disables TXIE, and when queuing any char the application enables
TXIF.

Things become as simple as 'UARTSendByte( Port, Byte );'.

Usually the application will never wait for the UART, unless the
circular queue becomes full or I need to wait for the transmission to
end (  'UARTIsTransmitting( Port )' ).

Best regards,

Isaac

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2009\01\20@071503 by Wouter van Ooijen

face picon face
>> you know form experience?
> Yes.

good to know

> You must test TXIF before sending each byte. If your code is not too
> slow, probably you will be able to put two characters into TXREG in the
> same loop iteration only in the first run. Probably in the next
> iteration the chars will not be transmitted yet.

That's fine with me.

My application is the sampler for a (slow) logical analyser. At 100kHz
(20 MHz 16F648A, so 50 instructions) I want to:

- check and report a 100kHz tick miss
- wait for the next 100kHz tick
- gather 5 pin values (no, they are not neatly next to each other on 1 port)
- check whether something has changed
- if so, (or elapsed time == 256) enqueue the new pin values and the
elapsed time
- if possible, send from the queue
- quit the loop if needed
- check whether the trigger condition is fulfilled, if so enable the
sampling

This is might just be possible in 50 instructions (in Jal, not
assembler!) if the "if possible, send from the queue" keeps the queue
size even (the queue is also filled 2 bytes at a time). So the only
thing I care is that when I find TXSTA_TRMT set, I can pull two bytes
from the queue en stuff them into TXREG. I won't check TXIF at all.

--

Wouter van Ooijen

-- -------------------------------------------
Van Ooijen Technische Informatica: http://www.voti.nl
consultancy, development, PICmicro products
docent Hogeschool van Utrecht: http://www.voti.nl/hvu

2009\01\20@090420 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>I like the interrupt approach. I set a circular buffer
>that the application fills and the ISR empties. When
>transmitting the last char the ISR disables TXIE, and
>when queuing any char the application enables TXIF.
>
>Things become as simple as 'UARTSendByte( Port, Byte );'.
>
>Usually the application will never wait for the UART,
>unless the circular queue becomes full or I need to
>wait for the transmission to end
>(  'UARTIsTransmitting( Port )' ).

I have done exactly this using assembler on the 16F series, using Olins
macros for the FIFO, and Fr. Tom McGahees PICUART file. Works a real treat.

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