Searching \ for '%Friend%' in subject line. ()
Make payments with PayPal - it's fast, free and secure! Help us get a faster server
FAQ page: www.piclist.com/techref/index.htm?key=friend
Search entire site for: 'Friend'.

_Sub string match.
PICList Thread
'Email Photos to Friends & Family * Display on Webs'
1997\06\26@191845 by qxvvptf

picon face
<HTML><PRE><BODY BGCOLOR="#000000"><FONT COLOR="#00FFFF" SIZE=3>
Preserve your Favorite Photos on your Computer !
Email your Favorite Photos to Friends & Family !
Create an Online Photo Album !
Keep Important Documents on your Computer !
Email Useful Documents (as attachments) to Business Associates !
Use Photos in Online Advertisements !

**********************************************
I've scanned photos and documents for hundreds of people I have met
on the internet. They send me any type of photos or documents they
want to preserve  on their computers. They can then send these photos or
documents to friends and family  by email, print them out, put them on a
webpage, incorporate them into other graphic designs or applications or
just remain secure knowing their photos and /or documents are preserved
in a safe place.

* FAMILY PHOTOS
* PORTRAITS
* PORTFOLIOS
* SNAPSHOTS / POLAROIDS
* TEAMS / SPORTS PHOTOS
* DRAWINGS / SKETCHES / ARTWORK
* WEDDING PHOTOS
* FLYERS
* ANY PRINTED PROMOTIONAL ITEMS FOR YOUR BUSINESS
* ANY PHOTO or DOCUMENT

* The only requirement is that the photos or documents be flat sheets
of paper no larger than "8.5" x  "14".
* All photos are scanned in high resolution, 16.7 million color JPEG
format. Of all the format types, this is the best format in which to
scan and transfer images for use on the internet.
*Sorry no slides...yet.

It's both simple and inexpensive !
My rate is $2.00 per photo or document (minimum order is $10.00)
for any item, any size up to "8.5" x "14".

If interested, please SEND your photos or documents (ANY quantity/
size/subject) and  check,money order or cash for the appropriate
amount along with your email address to my address below.
Indicate whether you would like your photo images emailed
back to you or sent to you on disk by postal mail. The price is the
same either way.
PLEASE PRINT YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS CLEARLY.
Please also include a self-addressed, stamped envelope for me to return
your original photos. If you are requesting a disk rather than email, it will
be sent at the same time.
If you pay by money order or cash, your photos will be scanned and returned
to you within 24 hours of the time that I receive them.
If you pay by check, your photos will be scanned and returned to you as
soon as the check clears.
Please rest assured that your photos will not be used in any way or
reproduced anywhere. I simply scan the photos, and either email the
images back to you or put them on disk and mail it to you. Your originals are
returned safely to you in the same condition as I received them.

Mail to:
Tsering Wilson
603 Seagaze Dr. # 527
Oceanside, Ca. 92054

*******************************************************

Here are some comments from a few of my customers:

"Tsering,
Got the photos just fine.  Thanks much.  You did a GREAT job.  Glad to hear
your business is a hit!!  Thanks for the tip on that photo stuff.  Good luck
Charlene"

"Tsering
  l am very pleased with the results and the next time I need pics scanned,
I'll definitely send them to you. Thank you so much for the note with
the advice on image editing, and l hope your business will continue to grow..
l'll surely tell all my friends...
thanks, Janelle"

"Tsering
Photos look good. We will try you again soon. Thanks.
Robert"

"Dear Tsering,
Thank you so much for getting the photos to me so fast.
I've been recommending you to my friends, as the speed was great,
and the quality was superb.
I'm very satisfied with your service. I will be sending you more
soon!
Sincerely,
Amber"

***************************************************************

THANK YOU FOR YOUR BUSINESS. I HOPE TO HEAR FROM
YOU SOON!

Tsering Wilson


The above address does not receive incoming email. I regret the inconvenience,
however,  in order to provide quick service and continue to offer scanning
services
at such a low price, I have to keep my overhead at a minimum. Responding to
questions by email would force me to raise my prices due to the extra time it
would
consume.  My work is excellent and your photos are secure with me.





06250855p23g
</FONT><FONT  COLOR="#000000" SIZE=3>


'HELLO BIG FRIENDS'
1998\03\18@160052 by WF AUTOMACAO
flavicon
face
Weeks ago someone put a PIC circuit to write in a RGB Monitor.

       Must to use a special IC for it?

       Could you refresh my memory?

       Miguel.


'PIC to help our girlfriends'
1998\06\11@073156 by Leonardo De Palo
flavicon
face
Hi,
as the subject seems not serious, my proposal to the PIC comunity should be
very serious.
I have been a request from a girl sounding like this "Is possible to build a
battery powered depilator, to remove unwanted hair"
My answer was YES! Because I was thinking at the depilator used at the
beauty center, but after some research I do not fount the voltage, frequency
and duration value to be used use to remove electricaly the hair.

As our comunity of PICer is large, with a lot of competence and experience
in different areas, my idea is:

Can we open a discussione to analyze all the aspect like, safety, voltage,
current ecc. of a new electronic depilator based on 16F84 and called "PIC
DEPILATOR"?

This knoledgment can be used to build a working prototype of PIC DEPILATOR?

regards

Leonardo

1998\06\11@084957 by alex_holden

picon face
This is almost as funny as the 555 powered PIC emulator.
If you sharpened the top edge of a JW package and glued it to a stick,
you could make a primitive (or is it highly advanced?) cutthroat razor:

/-----\                     /\
|     |                    / /
|     |                   / /
-------                  / /
/       \                / /
|       |               / /
|  MP-  |              / /
| FOAM  |             / /
|       |          /\/ /
|       |         /  \/
|       |        /    \
|       |       /     /\
---------      /  O  /\
             /     /\
             \    /\
              \  /\
               \/\
                \

I suspect the plastic package of a 16F84 would not keep an edge as well
as the ceramic package of a JW device.

Leonardo De Palo wrote:
> Can we open a discussione to analyze all the aspect like, safety, voltage,
> current ecc. of a new electronic depilator based on 16F84 and called "PIC
> DEPILATOR"?
>
> This knoledgment can be used to build a working prototype of PIC DEPILATOR?

--
--------------- Linux- the choice of a GNU generation. --------------
: Alex Holden (M1CJD)- Caver, Programmer, Land Rover nut, Radio Ham :
---------- http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/1532/ ---------

1998\06\11@110511 by Keith Howell

flavicon
face
Leonardo,

I'm an electronic engineer.
What's a girlfriend?
They sound hairy.
:-)

If you have one, surely you have more enjoyable things to do
than chat with cyber-nerds on the net? :-)

There is already an easy way to get rid of unwanted bikini-line hair.
Spit it out!

If you like making battery powered electronic items for girls,
how about a PIC-driven vibrator? You could make it far smaller
with more features than an organic penis, and if you sell it by
mail order, you can tell people to allow 28 days for it to come!

Yours non-too-seriously, KH

1998\06\11@180545 by Leonardo De Palo

flavicon
face
Hi,

Keith, I can understand that the argument can generate hilarity and can be
take at the first approach not seriously.
Also, if you consider that the english language is not my mother language
and writing about girls, hair, battery powered and device, the general
hilarity is easy to explode.

But now, becaming serious, the business of the depilator is big. In my
country is selled a permanent hair removal caming from Cordoba - Argentina,
at the equivalent price of 3.500 US dollars.

This apparatus, (reading the technical description) are able to generate a
variable tension between 200 and 800 Volt, with  45 milliampere at 1 Mhz.
The front panel have a timer and a couple pushbutton to increase or decrease
the power at the tweezer.

This device is powered from main line at 220 volt, and as you know any
medical or paramedical device should be powered by batteries to avoid any
potential injury of the patience

No other technical information I' able to obtain.


The spit out  at the bikini-line of the hair is not my primary job, (I'm
thinking to consider it) but I know the removal is not permanet.

Using current at high frequency the bulb of the hair is permanent destroied.


My call of PIC DEPILATOR is for discuss about the value of the current, the
frequency (fixed or sweeped) the time and other unknow parameter and the way
to use the PIC to controll all the function of the apparatus.

Yours more seriously :- |

Leonardo




-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: Keith Howell <spam_OUTkeithhTakeThisOuTspamARCAM.CO.UK>
A: .....PICLISTKILLspamspam@spam@MITVMA.MIT.EDU <PICLISTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Data: gioved“ 11 giugno 1998 16.13
Oggetto: Re: PIC to help our girlfriends


{Quote hidden}

1998\06\12@060539 by Keith Howell

flavicon
face
Leonardo De Palo wrote:

> writing about girls, hair, battery powered and device, the general
> hilarity is easy to explode.

The word "explode" makes me nervous.

> But now, becaming serious, the business of the depilator is big.
> In my country is selled a permanent hair removal caming from Cordoba
> Argentina, at the equivalent price of 3.500 US dollars.

Three _thousand_ five hundred??!! Or three bucks fifty cents?

> This apparatus ... generate 200 to 800 Volt, 45 milliampere at 1 Mhz.

Ouch!

A small bulb lights inside my head (metaphorically)...

South America... electricity... humans...

The people selling this 'apparatus': are they connected in some way
with the more military-oriented governments and their security
people? Does the apparatus include a wooden chair and strong leather
straps?

> This device is powered from main line at 220 volt

Doesn't this sound a suspiciously... _large_ power source?

> The spit out at the bikini-line of the hair is not my primary job

Nor mine, but then I've not seen any employment ads for it either.

> Using current at high frequency the
> bulb of the hair is permanent destroyed.

And perhaps the owner?

Well I wish you luck in in your endeavours to apply
the electrodes of enlightenment to the nipples of ignorance!

'PIC to help our girlfriends, depilator serious'
1998\06\12@063708 by Morgan Olsson

picon face
>This apparatus, (reading the technical description) are able to generate a
>variable tension between 200 and 800 Volt, with  45 milliampere at 1 Mhz.
>The front panel have a timer and a couple pushbutton to increase or decrease
>the power at the tweezer.
>
>Using current at high frequency the bulb of the hair is permanent destroied.
>
>My call of PIC DEPILATOR is for discuss about the value of the current, the
>frequency (fixed or sweeped) the time and other unknow parameter and the way
>to use the PIC to controll all the function of the apparatus.

How is this device targetet at the hair?
Do you have to point a needle tip thing to the skin there the hair enter?
I dont understand how high frequency can be part of the trick, but maybe
have something to do with concentration to the hair root, i dont know.
Anyway, it is a design trick to make the output transformer very small.

A very simple driver/oscillator for that transformer might be constructed
from only a transistr and a few C and R, but probably work better and have
less power consumption (good for battery) if built more advanced.  And you
wish to control the voltage and current.  There is of course also a
question of EMC...

I believe the whole thing can be built in form and size of a electrical
tooth brush  (just dont put the depilator in your mouth and kill your
teeth...!)

To stay on this lists topic, use a PIC for timing of the treatment, battery
charging, flashing a LED or whatever seem fancy  ;)

It seem to mee you already have all information necessary, written like
this: f=1MHz, current limited to 45mA, and voltage limited to 800V.

A more sporty non-cheating way is to try out the currents etc on yourself
(not your girlfriend, if you wish to keep her... )

/Morgan
/  Morgan Olsson, MORGANS REGLERTEKNIK, SE-277 35 KIVIK, Sweden \
\  .....mrtKILLspamspam.....iname.com, ph: +46 (0)414 70741; fax +46 (0)414 70331    /

1998\06\12@063712 by Morgan Olsson

picon face
I wrote
...
I believe the whole thing can be built in form and size of a electrical
tooth brush
...

I must correct myself: This current (at DC or LF anyway) is lethal if you
hold the device in your left hand unless the treatment is *very* short pulses.

Maybe make the unit so it front end is a metal plate with a one cm hole in
it, and in center the needle.  The plate is return for the current.

How are the units on the market made?
Are there safety requirements?
/Morgan
/  Morgan Olsson, MORGANS REGLERTEKNIK, SE-277 35 KIVIK, Sweden \
\  EraseMEmrtspam_OUTspamTakeThisOuTiname.com, ph: +46 (0)414 70741; fax +46 (0)414 70331    /

1998\06\12@072015 by Alan King

picon face
Since some people seem to be concerned about the high power, you
should know these newer devices have so much power because you simply
grab the hair with a pair of tweezers.  No needle to have to get to the
root.  The extra power is so it can get enough through the hair to the
root.  At least that was the impression I got from the Damark catalog
description..


>
> I believe the whole thing can be built in form and size of a electrical
> tooth brush  (just dont put the depilator in your mouth and kill your
> teeth...!)
>

1998\06\14@215522 by Ingmar Meins

flavicon
face
If you can supply a suitable blonde or brunette prototype, for purely scientific
testing of course, then I'm sure us Aussie PIC users would be happy to assist
!!!

Ingmar ;)


Leonardo De Palo wrote:

{Quote hidden}

1998\06\14@215531 by paulb

flavicon
face
Leonardo De Palo wrote:

> This apparatus, (reading the technical description) is able to
> generate a variable voltage between 200 and 800 Volt, with 45
> milliampere at 1 Mhz.

 That calculates to 36 watts maximum.  Since it is my profession, I can
tell you with some accuracy that that power level will burn a quarter
inch diameter hole in you inside of two seconds (or should that be
"inside of you"?).

 However, it is probable that it represents the short circuit current
limit, in which case the peak output power into the load calculates at
a quarter of this or nine watts.  That still does quite a bit of damage!

 In practice, the traditional method is to needle the hair follicle to
apply the current, requiring considerable skill and care.  The obvious
approach of applying the voltage to the hair itself is limited by the
fact that it is a rather good insulator.  It has a miniscule hollow core
however, so a high voltage may deliver sufficient power to destroy the
hair follicle.  I would expect the hair to burn out like a fuse at the
same time!  The danger is that such a high voltage can easily arc to the
adjacent skin, or the operator touch the skin anyway.

> The front panel has a timer and a couple pushbutton to increase or
> decrease the power at the tweezer.

 It thus sounds plausible that the timer is used to deliver a
single fractional-second burst with each depression of the trigger.
Diathermy "coagulation" current is indeed modulated, traditionally in
down-ramping pulses ("ringing" of a resonant circuit excited by large
impulses).  This contrasts with "cutting" current which is CW, throwing
sparks which explode individual cells on contact.  Coagulation just
cooks the tissue, but if strong enough, chars and burns it away.

 If there's a message in this, it is that there seems to be a major
S&M element in this depilation stuff, easily on a par with tattoo (but
then the good clinics do that too!).

> This device is powered from main line at 220 volt, and as you know any
> medical or paramedical device should be powered by batteries to avoid
> any potential injury to the patient

 You *could* power it by gel-cells to avoid a lot of problems with
isolation design and certification.  Although significant, the power
must, given the above considerations (e.g. pain), be limited to small
bursts at a time.  Usual trick is to use the same socket for the working
electrodes and the charger to guarantee only one function is used at any
one time.

> The spit out at the bikini-line of the hair is not my primary job,
> (I'm thinking to consider it) but I know the removal is not permanent.

 I'm not sure, Leonardo, whether your English is sufficient to have
twigged that the phenomenon referred to (in a "tongue-in-cheek" or
joking fashion) here was *accidental* pickup of hairs in the mouth
whilst engaging in an activity on the bikini line whose prime intention
was other than hair removal.

> My call of PIC DEPILATOR is for discuss about the value of the
> current,

 Controlled by controlling voltage

> the frequency (fixed or swept)

 *Must* be fixed, should be about 460kHz; there is a specification for
this.  *Not* 1MHz which is in the middle of the AM radio band and would
make you extrremely unpopular extremely fast.

 Using RF *does* make the transformers very light, but the reason for
using it is *actually* that there is no effect on tissue other than ...
heating.  The simple "do-it-yourself" electrolysis (correctly named in
this case) kits FWIW consist of a 9V battery, current limiting resistor,
grounding plate as part of the casing (grounding has not been mentioned
so far) and forceps or whatever.  To the extent that they might work, it
is by delivering a current too low to feel, for a much longer time.

 Cheers,
       Paul B.

1998\06\14@215551 by Wim E. van Bemmel

picon face
Most hilareous, this discussion, though is has certenly interesting points..

What amuses me is that the word "PIC", though spelled "pik", but pronounced
the same, means what in english would be called "cock".
So to us Dutch we are discussing the features of a cock epilator..


Keith Howell wrote:

{Quote hidden}

--
 Regards,

 ------------------------------------------------------------------
 Wim E. van Bemmel
 No Unsollicited Commercial bemspanspamspam_OUTxs4all.nl
 Life is about Interfacing ....
 ------------------------------------------------------------------

1998\06\14@215559 by Morgan Olsson

picon face
Alan King wrote
...
>The extra power is so it can get enough through the hair to the
>root.  At least that was the impression I got from the Damark catalog
>description..
...
Strange. isnt  hair a pretty good *isolator* ?

/Morgan

/  Morgan Olsson, MORGANS REGLERTEKNIK, SE-277 35 KIVIK, Sweden \
\  @spam@mrtKILLspamspaminame.com, ph: +46 (0)414 70741; fax +46 (0)414 70331    /

1998\06\14@215627 by Morgan Olsson

picon face
At 07:22 1998-06-12 -0400, Alan King wrote:
...
>these newer devices have so much power because you simply
>grab the hair with a pair of tweezers.
...

Are there no other electrical connection?
If so I believe what happens is that the hair is burned off between the
tweezers.
Do this device really kill the root?  Any idea how?

/Morgan
/  Morgan Olsson, MORGANS REGLERTEKNIK, SE-277 35 KIVIK, Sweden \
\  KILLspammrtKILLspamspaminame.com, ph: +46 (0)414 70741; fax +46 (0)414 70331    /

1998\06\14@215642 by Scott Walsh

flavicon
face
    If they have that much hair, maybe you want to check for evidence of
    an adams apple as well!

    Sorry couldnt resisit, it's a Friday and just got back from the pub,
    have a good weekend.

    kind regards,
    SW.


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: PIC to help our girlfriends
Author:  pic microcontroller discussion list <RemoveMEPICLISTTakeThisOuTspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU> at
INTERNET
Date:    11/06/98 15:58


Leonardo,

I'm an electronic engineer.
What's a girlfriend?
They sound hairy.
:-)

If you have one, surely you have more enjoyable things to do
than chat with cyber-nerds on the net? :-)

There is already an easy way to get rid of unwanted bikini-line hair.
Spit it out!

If you like making battery powered electronic items for girls,
how about a PIC-driven vibrator? You could make it far smaller
with more features than an organic penis, and if you sell it by
mail order, you can tell people to allow 28 days for it to come!

Yours non-too-seriously, KH

1998\06\14@215656 by Karel Hladky

flavicon
picon face
In article <000201bd9582$aafc7200$2f040404@Dino>, Leonardo De Palo
<spamBeGoneleo.depalospamBeGonespamPOMETIA.IT> writes
>This apparatus, (reading the technical description) are able to generate a
>variable tension between 200 and 800 Volt, with  45 milliampere at 1 Mhz.
>The front panel have a timer and a couple pushbutton to increase or decrease
>the power at the tweezer.

9 to 36 watt of RF power seems a lot to fry a pubic hair.

But obviously it works, so let's see how it's done : a quick search of
http://www.patents.ibm.com reveals that the problem of hair removal has
taxed the human ingenuity for some time. Beside all kinds of mechanical
plucking devices just about anything had been tried, including lasers
and capacitor discharge.

Patent 5,026,369 (I love the pictures) looks interesting but it is only
dc - this would probably be easier to control though. Patent 4,174,714
looks more like it but seems pre-occupied with the tweezer part of the
device. Bring up a list of patents referencing this one ...

The problem seems to be how to fry the follicle, which is quite
conductive, while not damaging the surrounding tissue and not instantly
vapourising the relatively non-conductive hair. Hence the RF (skin
effect).

Have a browse through the patents (search for 'hair removal' AND
'electrical').

I just hope that you have a willing test subject lined up.

Karel
--
    ++++++++++++++++++ KH Design & Development ++++++++++++++++++
    Electrochemical Corrosion Measurement and Control Consultancy
                  http://www.khdesign.demon.co.uk/

1998\06\14@220542 by Dr. Imre Bartfai

flavicon
face
I repeat the treatment may not be lethal due to high frequency (e. g. such
signal has NO effect on the muscles which is responsible for the lethal
exit during normal electric shock).


On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Morgan Olsson wrote:

{Quote hidden}

1998\06\14@220545 by Dr. Imre Bartfai

flavicon
face
I wonder what kind of battery can deliver 800V*40mA=320W power? On the
other hand, I don't doubt the values mentioned here on the contrary with a
previous letter as a well-known fact high frequency (1 MHz in our example)
is principally harmless (think of the famous Tesla-trafo). I think the
appliance works so that with a targeted thermal schock kills the root of
the hair. But there is a missing data: you wrote about timer; it is good
possible that the high-frequency signal has a limited duration set by the
timer. So if someone wants to rebuild the machine it is needed to know how
long the pulse is (or maybe a pulse train?). Such power needs special
hardware (power FET or power high-frequency transistor).

Imre

On Fri, 12 Jun 1998, Morgan Olsson wrote:

{Quote hidden}

1998\06\14@221237 by Josef Hanzal

flavicon
face
> Can we open a discussione to analyze all the aspect like, safety, voltage,
> current ecc. of a new electronic depilator based on 16F84 and called "PIC
> DEPILATOR"?

I would suggest dePICator...

Josef

1998\06\15@021439 by Dr. Imre Bartfai

flavicon
face
Sorry, sorry, sorry

it is 32W instead of 320W, of course. As I understood from the previous
messages, it is a limit of the peak power, so it maybe possible to use a
battery. The remark for 1 MHz due to bci is o. k. but 460kHz is also close
enough to the common intermediate frequency of the most AM receivers to
cause also harmful interferences. 1,9 MHz would be a better solution I
guess.

Imre


On Sat, 13 Jun 1998, Dr. Imre Bartfai wrote:

{Quote hidden}

1998\06\15@234447 by smg

flavicon
face
HI:

I agree that 9 to 36 watts of RF is pretty hefty.  However, I wonder what
the duty cycle is.  How much energy is tha folicle actually absorbing,
i.e., joules, ergs, etc.

----------
> From: Karel Hladky <EraseMEkhladkyspamKHDESIGN.DEMON.CO.UK>
> To: RemoveMEPICLISTEraseMEspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: [OT] PIC to help our girlfriends
> Date: Friday, June 12, 1998 8:49 AM
>
> In article <000201bd9582$aafc7200$2f040404@Dino>, Leonardo De Palo
> <RemoveMEleo.depalospam_OUTspamKILLspamPOMETIA.IT> writes
> >This apparatus, (reading the technical description) are able to generate
a
> >variable tension between 200 and 800 Volt, with  45 milliampere at 1
Mhz.
> >The front panel have a timer and a couple pushbutton to increase or
decrease
{Quote hidden}

1998\06\15@235908 by smg

flavicon
face
Morgan:

Interesting question about the conductivity of hair.

Actually, the hair is a complex containing certain protein structures.  The
protein is RF conductive.  Although engineering is playing a more
significant role in biology, there is still not a well defined field of
biomechanics or bioelectronics.  It is surprising, though, how much
technical work is being accomplihed by a relatively small community.  Such
questions as "what are the inertial forces of the enzymes entering the
blood stream" would have been meaningless a few years ago.  But now we have
the tools to answer these questions and examine new aspects of virul
intrusion.

RF is being used in medical treatments more than ever.  But RF is still
very dangerous and so we need to help people proceed carefully with any
knowledge we have.  The questions about hair are increasingly important for
reasons beyond cosmetics and business enterprise.  The "Help our
girlfriends" discussion is very relevant from the biological as well as the
marketing side.

Also, I liked your question whether or not hair is an isolator.  In terms
of the clasical BAND GAP theory I suppose you could say that it is not
because it is not a crystaline structure.  But when we are dealing with
organic substances, AC and pulse circumstances as well as variable
impedances, we find new will factors apply.

Thank you for your question.


Richard

----------
{Quote hidden}

1998\06\16@093053 by paulb

flavicon
face
Dr. Imre Bartfai wrote:

> The remark for 1 MHz due to bci is o. k. but 460kHz is also close
> enough to the common intermediate frequency of the most AM receivers
> to cause also harmful interferences. 1,9 MHz would be a better
> solution I guess.

 I'm not totally sure, but I doubt 1.9 MHz is appropriate.  There are
certain defined "ISM" (Industrial; Scientific; Medical) frequency
allocations and one of them is around 460KHz; perhaps 465 or 470.
500KHz is by the way a *distress* frequency, lest anyone should idly
make that suggestion!

 The fact that the ISM frequency is in close proximity to the standard
455KHz IF frequency is not accidental; a proper radio is supposed to be
designed *not* to receive this frequency, (procedure called "shielding")
but the intention is that stray 455KHz *from* radios will fall in a band
where it cannot interfere with any other service.  I know that sounds a
bit fuzzy, but that's how it works!  Other ISM bands include the 27 MHz
"CB" band.

 Cheers,
       Paul B.

1998\06\16@113042 by Andres j Ogayar

flavicon
face
-----Mensaje original-----
De: Morgan Olsson <mrtSTOPspamspamspam_OUTINAME.COM>
Para: spamBeGonePICLISTSTOPspamspamEraseMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU <KILLspamPICLISTspamBeGonespamMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Fecha: viernes 12 de junio de 1998 12:38
Asunto: Re: PIC to help our girlfriends, depilator serious


>>This apparatus, (reading the technical description) are able to generate a
>>variable tension between 200 and 800 Volt, with  45 milliampere at 1 Mhz.
>>The front panel have a timer and a couple pushbutton to increase or
decrease
>>the power at the tweezer.
>>
>>Using current at high frequency the bulb of the hair is permanent
destroied.
>>
>>My call of PIC DEPILATOR is for discuss about the value of the current,
the
>>frequency (fixed or sweeped) the time and other unknow parameter and the
way
{Quote hidden}

A quick question: jus 800V * 45.10-3 A = 36 W

   36 Watts of Radio Frequency (assuming 100% of efficiency) wil take out
an 1.2 A 9.6 V NiCd battery in less than 20 minutes. With the 'Normal' RF
efficiencies of 40-60% they will get as much as 8-10 minutes. And these
bateries _ARE_ heavy.That's the reason why these devices are mains-powered.

   By the way, you _do_ need an special FCC (or whatever your country's
Telecommunications authority is) license for these levels of power.


>A more sporty non-cheating way is to try out the currents etc on yourself
>(not your girlfriend, if you wish to keep her... )



   For sure! No animal, no girlfriend testing. Self testing would have
saved lots of animal lives... And erased some people from earth. This should
became law.


Think twice before playing with fire... You could get wet on bed (Spanish
proverb).

   Andres j. Ogayar.
   Malaga ("Costa del Sol"), Spain.

1998\06\16@143254 by Harijs Melders

flavicon
face
Years ago I repaired one such professional gear(depilator).
It was made in Italy and contains a classic UHF transmitter
(quartz oscillator, tripler, booster 10W) with tweezer instead
of ariel. I don't remember exactly what a frequency was,
I think around a 100 MHz, because a FM radio doesn't work
at all. Time was controlled simply by pedal.

{Quote hidden}

1998\06\17@041302 by Dr. Imre Bartfai

flavicon
face
Only as background information:

there was an obsolete standard in my country (possibly others) that the IF
should be 473 kHz. Theoretically there may exist receivers using this
ones. It is true the IF circuits are shielded but I don't know what
happens if the IF comes the input circuitry of the rig. That remark also
o. k. with 27 MHz but maybe there is some designing differences between
the original project and the new one.

Imre

And another question: as the original depilator was described as a $3,500
device, maybe it emits not sinusoidal but some another curve? Or it is
meaningless?



On Tue, 16 Jun 1998, Paul B. Webster VK2BZC wrote:

{Quote hidden}

1998\06\17@185244 by Leonardo De Palo

flavicon
face
Hi,
I'm very impressed about the experience and knoledement on this list.

When I have "put on" this argument,  some friends have been an ilaric
reaction. But now the discussion is becamed more seriously.

I propose to the interested PIC'er to address the discuss to define the best
way to "fry" the hair follicole, considering first of all the safety, all in
direction to use the PIC.

Ciao

Leonardo

1998\06\18@110227 by paulb

flavicon
face
Andres j Ogayar wrote:

> By the way, you _do_ need an special FCC (or whatever your country's
> Telecommunications authority is) license for these levels of power.

 The license is usually a "generic" one, in the form of type-approval
of the equipment.

 That is the meaning of ISM bands; bands and/ or frequencies on which
you don't require a license to transmit specified (in this case, quite
high) levels of power.  They are "Public Garbage Frequencies".  The type
approval is merely to demonstrate that your equipment *only* pollutes
the specified frequency/ band.

 Cheers,
       Paul B.

'QUESTIONS OF MY FRIEND: JULIANO :)'
1998\06\25@191830 by WF AUTOMACAO

flavicon
face
Hi all!

       Does someone have implemented PWM (Hardware) with PIC17C92? (I'M
NOT SURE IF IS THIS CHIP HAVE 3 PWM), do you have samples?

       Has someone done communication between a little Camera and a PIC?
(My friend want to implement a Neural Network with PIC). There are 10
machines to have control, but he wants choose the PIC on the place of PC!

       Miguel.

1998\06\27@083517 by g.daniel.invent.design

flavicon
face
WF AUTOMACAO wrote:
>
> Hi all!
>
>         Does someone have implemented PWM (Hardware) with PIC17C92? (I'M
> NOT SURE IF IS THIS CHIP HAVE 3 PWM), do you have samples?
>
>         Has someone done communication between a little Camera and a PIC?
> (My friend want to implement a Neural Network with PIC). There are 10
> machines to have control, but he wants choose the PIC on the place of PC!
>
>         Miguel.

Miguel,
regarding your friend's neural network, I suspect that PIC is not an
optimum solution as pic is primarily designed as a microcontroler.
Memory limitations on microcontrolers will severely restrict your
ability to compare or even to store video frames. Even the 17Cxxy series
is not friendly to addressing external memory, and you would be using
macros instead of single instructions for off chip memory.

If you can accept the higher cost, then you could look at something like
an ST10 series micro from SGS Thomson (100k Flash ROM varients
available)

Regards,
Graham Daniel.


'OT Friend to start with BSII, best place/price'
1998\10\07@112614 by david schmidt
flavicon
face
Sorry for this really OT question.
Have a friend that has decided to start using PICS, but in the form of the
BSII.

I have never used it, nor have any good info on tools, prices, etc.

Anyone have a link or address?
TIA
Dave

1998\10\07@122036 by Justin Crooks

flavicon
face
There is a BSII discussion group, but I forgot where.

Also, we had some early products that used the StampII, and we have now
phased them out.  We have a box with 200+ basic stamps collecting dust.  If
you need to purchase >50, I could easily talk my boss into selling them
cheap.

----------
> From: david schmidt <EraseMEdschmidtspamEraseMESILCOM.COM>
> To: @spam@PICLIST@spam@spamspam_OUTMITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: OT Friend to start with BSII, best place/price
> Date: Wednesday, October 07, 1998 9:23 AM
>
> Sorry for this really OT question.
> Have a friend that has decided to start using PICS, but in the form of
the
> BSII.
>
> I have never used it, nor have any good info on tools, prices, etc.
>
> Anyone have a link or address?
> TIA
> Dave

1998\10\08@200330 by miked

flavicon
face
> There is a BSII discussion group, but I forgot where.
>

"spamBeGonemajordomospamKILLspamparallaxinc.com"


'Eagle-friendly Board House'
1999\07\29@125331 by Bob Drzyzgula
flavicon
face
Sorry to bother everyone with this, but I have a couple of
questions for all the Eagle users out there:

* What Board house do you use? I presume that a Gerber
  is a Gerber, but were they knowldegeable about any
  idiosyncracies in those generated by Eagle and how
  to set your design rules and CAM settings to avoid
  problems?

* How do you organize your layers in the Gerber plots?
  Do you typically just use Cadsoft's default Gerber
  and Excellon CAM jobs, did you tweak them, or did
  you design your own CAM job from scratch? (and can
  your share with me what you did?)

For reference, I'm going to be starting with a
little (< 10 sq in) double-sided through-hole board,
which I've managed to lay out without vias.

Thanks,
--Bob

--
============================================================
Bob Drzyzgula                             It's not a problem
.....bobspam_OUTspamdrzyzgula.org                until something bad happens
============================================================

1999\07\29@141442 by Gabriel Gonzalez

flavicon
face
Hi Bob,

I've always used Eagle for my boards and never had any problems with the
default Gerber and Excellon job outputs. I've only modified the gerber
output when I need something special, like legends on both sides of the
board, or display values, etc.

I've used a few different sources for my PCBs, and the ones I most recently
used are:

American Standard Circuits (excellent quality but expensive)
Colt Technologies (cheapest and acceptable quality)
Alberta Printed Circuits APC (very good quality, cheap on low volumes and
the fastest service)

Just be sure to include all the needed files and clearly specify them in a
README.TXT file.

Also you will need to create a 'drill plan' and send it by fax so they can
verify the job output.

Something else I do, before they start, is ask them to send me printouts by
fax of the gerber output so I can check them, after I verify everything is
right I sign them and send them back so they can start the PCB making.

Hope it helps,

Gabriel


{Original Message removed}


'Friends'
1999\08\29@115931 by Raul Sulla Torres
flavicon
face
Friends
Where I can get information to build an arm robot controlled with the PIC
16F84
And if this in the WEB which is their address

greetings

Raul

TakeThisOuTrsullato.....spamTakeThisOuTucsm.edu.pe

1999\08\29@143228 by Dan Creagan

flavicon
face
Is this a hobby arm or something more serious?


Hobby arm:

Take a look at  http://204.233.101.40/robots/arm.html. If you want to
control it with a PIC, then you can use the serial servo controller at
http://204.233.101.40/robots/ssc1684.html.  I used it to run the arm and it
worked just like it should.  However this arm is really just a toy - it only
has about 2-3 ounces of lift.


Something more serious:

I would be interested in something more serious myself.  The above arm cost
quite a bit to build and it still isn't really useful for work.  If the
price could be kept under a few hundred for something in the 16 ounce lift
category with five to six axis of motion (6 preferred), I would be
delighted.


Dan


-----Original Message-----
From: Raul Sulla Torres <TakeThisOuTrsullatoKILLspamspamspamUCSM.EDU.PE>
To: .....PICLISTspamRemoveMEMITVMA.MIT.EDU <RemoveMEPICLISTspamspamBeGoneMITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Date: Sunday, August 29, 1999 6:10 AM
Subject: Friends


{Quote hidden}


'Searching friends for build a PIC & WEB based proj'
1999\12\30@144350 by Leo
picon face
Hi PICer friends,

I have been an idea for project tha can be useful on the WEB.

The idea in extreme sinthesys consist to connect to the PC a piece of
hardware, tipically a PIC on the paralell port that permit the access to a
special page on the WEB server like a key or password.

If someone is interested, please send me an E-MAIL at the following address:

TakeThisOuTcacciavitespamspambigfoot.com

and using on the subject the words PIC & WEB

Thanks

Saluti a tutti e un augurio di un prospero e felice anno nuovo. BUON ANNO


Leo

1999\12\30@155436 by quozl

flavicon
face
Design idea ... add a connector to the keyboard cable, allow a PIC in a
case to be attached to the cable, the user hits a key combination at a
particular time and the "password" is sent down to the PC.

--
James Cameron   quozlEraseMEspamus.netrek.org   http://quozl.us.netrek.org/


'Good old friend... W'
2000\05\17@074547 by Samuel Ace Winchenbach
flavicon
face
Howdy,

Am I mistaken or is W an 8 bit register?

I try to do the following:

MOVLW   250

And get the warning:

Warning[202] C:\WINDOWS\DESKTOP\LED.ASM 60 : Argument out of range.  Least
significant bits used.


It does this for any litteral over 99.
MOVLW   99      ;Works Fine
MOVLW   100     ;Bad.

Maybe it is just another MPLAB quirk thing...  they really are annoying to
the beginner though, I keep thinking that I am doing something wrong.

2000\05\17@074751 by Midgley John

flavicon
face
Radix set to hex, not decimal?

{Quote hidden}

2000\05\17@075210 by Samuel Ace Winchenbach

flavicon
face
<snip>
>Radix set to hex, not decimal?

Oh thank you... that works much better now.  I didn't even know about that.
I must go read up on Radix now =P

Thanks Again

2000\05\17@075218 by Andy Baker

flavicon
face
Sounds to me like  your default radix is set to hexadecimal:

0x99 = decimal 153, which fits in 8 bits
0x100 = decimal 256, which doesn't.

Put:

       radix dec

at the top of your assembler to get it to read unformatted numbers in
decimal.

Andy

{Original Message removed}

2000\05\17@094404 by Ismael M. Khangane

flavicon
face
Hi Midgley:
Try this:
radix dec
....
movlw    .250        ; This will know it's decimal as a point signify decimal
number.

Midgley John wrote:

> Radix set to hex, not decimal?
>
> >{Original Message removed}

2000\05\17@115202 by Larry G. Nelson Sr.

flavicon
face
Check to see if default radix is hex or decimal. Hex would fail but decimal
would work ok.

At 07:44 AM 5/17/00 -0400, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Larry G. Nelson Sr.
EraseMEL.Nelsonspam@spam@ieee.org
http://www.ultranet.com/~nr

2000\05\17@133443 by rleggitt

picon face
Change default radix from hex to decimal :)

On Wed, 17 May 2000, Samuel Ace Winchenbach wrote:

{Quote hidden}


'[OT]:GOTO & girlfriends'
2000\09\15@042036 by Alan B. Pearce
face picon face
Many of you have probably seen this, but the recent stories of girlfriends and clocks caused me to recall it.
http://www.pagetutor.com/misc/bug.html

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics
(like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics



'[PIC]: Linux friendly PIC programmer / software?'
2001\11\15@133055 by Jeff DeMaagd
flavicon
face
I have a friend who is looking to buy a uC kit for her husband and she's
budgeting about $100-$200 for one.  I did suggest the Pic Start Plus but
thought there are probably more suitable alternatives, as the person in
question is a heavy Linux user.  Are there any that are known Linux friendly
and have enough software available to make it usable?

I think it would be best to find one that supports the 16F series at
minimum.

Thanks!

Jeff

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different
ways.  See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.


2001\11\15@145244 by Scott Dattalo

face
flavicon
face
On Thu, 15 Nov 2001, Jeff DeMaagd wrote:

> I have a friend who is looking to buy a uC kit for her husband and she's
> budgeting about $100-$200 for one.  I did suggest the Pic Start Plus but
> thought there are probably more suitable alternatives, as the person in
> question is a heavy Linux user.  Are there any that are known Linux friendly
> and have enough software available to make it usable?
>
> I think it would be best to find one that supports the 16F series at
> minimum.

I use the PicStart Plus under Linux. Check out Andrew Pine's Linux driver:

http://www.cosmodog.com/pic/index.html

Also, you may wish to check out the Programmers Section on the GNUPIC web
page:

http://www.gnupic.org/

Or you may wish to join the gnupic mailing list. There's been a flurry of
posts on exactly this subject:

http://www.linuxhacker.org/cgi-bin/ezmlm-cgi/1

It looks like there's enough interest to resurrect CUMP.

Scott

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different
ways.  See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.


2001\11\15@175512 by Benjamin Bromilow

flavicon
face
I'm sure there will be a flood of "biased" posts but here's my views.......
The NOPPP programmer is so simple to build, I could find the parts locally
and build it quicker than it would take to deliver a "professional" unit.
Additionally, software is available for:
16F83/4/(A), 16F87X and now for 16F826.
Windows software is available for all of the above
Linux software is available for all except '826 though this could be added
in two minutes..........
I've used the programmer under both Linux and Windows on my dual boot system
and it works just fine either way.......

Ben
$100-200?.... try $10 and thirty minutes...
For 16F chips, the NOPPP is a winner in my views

{Original Message removed}

2001\11\15@185541 by Brandon Fosdick

flavicon
face
Jeff DeMaagd wrote:
>
> I have a friend who is looking to buy a uC kit for her husband and she's
> budgeting about $100-$200 for one.  I did suggest the Pic Start Plus but
> thought there are probably more suitable alternatives, as the person in
> question is a heavy Linux user.  Are there any that are known Linux friendly
> and have enough software available to make it usable?
>
> I think it would be best to find one that supports the 16F series at
> minimum.

There's the Pocket at http://www.bubblesoftonline.com which is what I
use. Lots of features and less than $100. It only comes with Windows
software so I wrote my own. Actually my code is for FreeBSD, but it
shouldn't be too hard for a "heavy Linux user" to adjust the IO calls.
My code is at http://terrandev.com/~bfoz/pocket/. It's not complete yet,
I've only implemented what I need so far. It probably has some bugs too.

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The PICList is archived three different
ways.  See http://www.piclist.com/#archives for details.


'[EE:] I killed my girlfriends laptop battery!?'
2001\11\17@083316 by Morgan Olsson

picon face
I think it is only playing dead

Maybe some brilliant person here have a clue, I have exhausted my clues on this...

I have tried to change cells in old battery packs for the laptop Compaq Armada 7730MT.
Theese packs have built in electronics, a ridicoulous amount of SMT components including lots of IC.  I know they are for protecting the pack from being under and overcharged, but still seem more than plenty.

Anyway, after changing the cells, the pack still plays dead; do not take charge, and do not deliver after manually directly charging the cells either.

This is strange!
Are theese battery packs designed to play dead after cells are replaced?
(So Compac can sell new expensive packs)  Or is it just a design flaw?

Anyway, any ideas to get them working?

Seems like all electronics is shut down; I can nowhere among the chips find any supply voltage.  Maybe it needs to have a small voltage from the cell at any time to keep powering itself.  How to start it then?

I tried to short the battery plus to plus connector pole (minus is common) and then the pushbutton activated built in LED battery charge meter is working, but when placed in the laptop, the laptop starts up, beeps some times and then shuts off...

The connector to the laptop have two large pins, plus and minus, and then four small pins terminated with 10 ohms resistor, apparently some signal or communication, maybe serial.  Maybe it needs to be talked to first time after power up, and get it loaded with battery parameters etc?

I really got no idea about how to continue now.


This have happened two times now both a Compaq Armada 7730MT:

First time a friends Compaq gave up, letting the smoke out of the power supply and a cap on the main board, replacing them made it live up, but the battery pack still dead.  It had been dead for a while so some cells have shorted so I replaced them but the pack was still dead, so I reckonned the cirqiut board somehow got damaged by the power supply, or it broke taking the supply with it.

Today, I replaced the cells in my girlfriends laptop battery pack, and now that pack is dead too...

Regards
/Morgan

Morgan Olsson          http://www.morgansreglerteknik.se
RemoveMEmorgans.rt@spam@spamspamBeGonetelia.com, tel +46(0)414-446620, fax -672324
Morgans Reglerteknik AB, Hällekås, 277 35 KIVIK, SWEDEN

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
.....piclist-unsubscribe-request@spam@spamEraseMEmitvma.mit.edu


2001\11\17@154714 by Morgan Olsson

picon face
(Resent because of misspelled tag, sorry)

I think it is only playing dead

Maybe some brilliant person here have a clue, I have exhausted my clues on this...

I have tried to change cells in old battery packs for the laptop Compaq Armada 7730MT.
Theese packs have built in electronics, a ridicoulous amount of SMT components including lots of IC.  I know they are for protecting the pack from being under and overcharged, but still seem more than plenty.

Anyway, after changing the cells, the pack still plays dead; do not take charge, and do not deliver after manually directly charging the cells either.

This is strange!
Are theese battery packs designed to play dead after cells are replaced?
(So Compac can sell new expensive packs)  Or is it just a design flaw?

Anyway, any ideas to get them working?

Seems like all electronics is shut down; I can nowhere among the chips find any supply voltage.  Maybe it needs to have a small voltage from the cell at any time to keep powering itself.  How to start it then?

I tried to short the battery plus to plus connector pole (minus is common) and then the pushbutton activated built in LED battery charge meter is working, but when placed in the laptop, the laptop starts up, beeps some times and then shuts off...

The connector to the laptop have two large pins, plus and minus, and then four small pins terminated with 10 ohms resistor, apparently some signal or communication, maybe serial.  Maybe it needs to be talked to first time after power up, and get it loaded with battery parameters etc?

I really got no idea about how to continue now.


This have happened two times now both a Compaq Armada 7730MT:

First time a friends Compaq gave up, letting the smoke out of the power supply and a cap on the main board, replacing them made it live up, but the battery pack still dead.  It had been dead for a while so some cells have shorted so I replaced them but the pack was still dead, so I reckonned the cirqiut board somehow got damaged by the power supply, or it broke taking the supply with it.

Today, I replaced the cells in my girlfriends laptop battery pack, and now that pack is dead too...

Regards
/Morgan Morgan Olsson          http://www.morgansreglerteknik.se
.....morgans.rtRemoveMEspamtelia.com, tel +46(0)414-446620, fax -672324
Morgans Reglerteknik AB, Hällekås, 277 35 KIVIK, SWEDEN

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
.....piclist-unsubscribe-requestSTOPspamspam@spam@mitvma.mit.edu


2001\11\19@104753 by Scott Beatty

flavicon
face
Morgan

       Sorting some of the pins may have damaged the electronics.  The
amount of electronics is quite necessary.  Laptop batteries are Lithium-Ion.
Lithium-Ion batteries have a nasty habit of exploding into a ball of FIRE if
they are over charged.  Shorting pins may damage the electronics or cause
the batteries to explode.  Or the manufacturer programmed the battery to
fail after a number of hours.  Either way I suggest you just buy a new
battery.

Scott

{Original Message removed}

2001\11\19@113014 by Morgan Olsson

picon face
Scott Beatty wrote:

>Morgan
>
>        Sorting some of the pins may have damaged the electronics.

I was very careful both times, identical failure.

>  The
>amount of electronics is quite necessary.

I have seen other packs inside, this particular design is more than double the usual amount of components:
one big chip under a blob
10 pcs 8 to 16 pinners
6 pcs 6-pin
transistors, diodes
more than 100 R, lots of C, most 0402
two resonators, 5 leds and a pushbutton.
all on a *very* dense double sided 15x130mm PCB.

>  Laptop batteries are Lithium-Ion.

Theese were 1,2V unmarked types (NiMh or NiCd, i replaced with NiMh)

>Either way I suggest you just buy a new
>battery.

It hurts (especially as i have had no good experience with compaq, one of the laptops screen is glitchy, and I have already changed the power supply for a spare part.  If this continues it is cheaper to buy a new laptop...

Think I´ll just let it be portable without battery.  Power is almost anywhere anyway.

/Morgan

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics
(like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics


2001\11\19@154417 by Allen Mahurin

picon face
I'd agree with the last assessment.  While I don't
know what type of cells your computer takes, if it's
Li-Ion, you *don't* want to be changing them out
unless you specialize in doing that sort of thing.
Part of my job is evaluating product, and one of them
was a Li-Ion battery pack for camcorders.  It's the
only Li-Ion pack I've worked on, but it was something
new to me, and taught me a bit about them.

While Li-Ion has a great capacity compared to most
other comparable chemistries, it is VERY "delicate" in
the sense of charging and discharging.  The built-in
circuitry is required to protect the cells (and
product) during charge and discharge.  If you've
changed anything in the mix (such as shorting out part
of the circuit, using cells with a different capacity
than intended, etc.), there's a good chance you won't
bring that pack back to life.  My suggestion would be
to just buy the correct replacement pack (sorry).

Good luck,

ATM

--- Scott Beatty <Scott.BeattyEraseMEspam@spam@ECLIPSEAVIATION.COM>
wrote:
{Quote hidden}

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals
http://personals.yahoo.com

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics
(like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics


2001\11\19@165840 by Morgan Olsson

picon face
Yes I know Li batteriea are dangerous.
Have designed with them.

Anyway, as I said theese are NiMH (possibly NiCd)
Theese also need electronics to last long time and measure remaining energy.

In any case the electronics can easily be designed to start-up charging empty cells carefully, or uoutput power from manually top charged cells.

My standpoint now is Compaq deliberately designed it to lock if somebody tries to change cells, not for technical, but profits reason.  I will not buy any more Compaq for sure.  (The power supply gave up earlier (also expensive as spare part) and the fan has stopped also)

/Morgan

Allen Mahurin wrote:
{Quote hidden}

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics
(like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics



'Their new friend: Chameleon'
2002\11\02@204917 by Chameleon Groom Lake
picon face
Hello friends!!!
My name is Chameleon, and I am new in the forum. Can they tell me like this
forum works?, please...
Thanks to all.....!!!
Their new friend: Chameleon





_________________________________________________________________
MSN Fotos: la forma mas facil de compartir e imprimir fotos.
http://photos.msn.es/support/worldwide.aspx

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
spamBeGonepiclist-unsubscribe-requestKILLspamspam@spam@mitvma.mit.edu


2002\11\02@210657 by cdb

flavicon
face
Just a friendly note -
don't forget topic tags (though I'm guilty of that).

And your Subject heading may put some people off - it might be a
little too close to Porn style heading.

The forum works by you asking PIC or Electronics questions after
research has failed, or you don't understand the answers you've
found/ been given or of course if you know an answer to someone elses
query you post an answer.

Colin
--
cdb, bodgy1spam_OUTspam@spam@optusnet.com.au on 03/11/2002

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: To leave the PICList
spamBeGonepiclist-unsubscribe-request@spam@spammitvma.mit.edu



'[OT]: In the spirit of my good friend Russell...'
2003\05\30@130150 by Chris Loiacono
flavicon
face
Has anyone seen any effects from this sort of thing?:

Solar Storm Will Be Felt on Earth Friday

BOULDER, Colorado, May 29, 2003 (ENS) - A solar flare traveling towards
Earth at a speed of three million miles per hour, is expected to impact the
Earth's magnetic field sometime between 2 to 8 am EDT on Friday, according
to the Space Environment Center operated by the National Oceanic and
Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) in Boulder.
The storm is expected to reach strong to severe levels (G-3 to G-4) on the
NOAA Space Weather Scales, which can adversely affect satellite operations
in Earth orbit and power grids on the Earth's surface.

A complex sunspot region near the center of the sun has produced three major
flares in the last 48 hours, NOAA says. A strong solar wind was observed in
response to the first two events. The three Coronal Mass Ejections
associated with the flares ejected billions of tons of plasma and charged
particles into space.

The third coronal mass ejection is the one presently heading towards Earth.

A solar radiation storm is also in progress in association with the flare
activity, and all flares reached R-3 on the NOAA radio blackout scale.

In addition, there is a good chance of seeing the Aurora Borealis in the
mid-latitudes after midnight on May 30, NOAA says.

The Space Environment Center website is online at:
http://www.sec.noaa.gov/SWN/

--
http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
email RemoveMElistservEraseMEspamKILLspammitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body

2003\05\30@130942 by David VanHorn

flavicon
face
At 01:03 PM 5/30/2003 -0400, Chris Loiacono wrote:

>Has anyone seen any effects from this sort of thing?:

Yes, radio band openings on 6M and 2M last night.
Also interesting activity in the VLF whistler band.

--
http://www.piclist.com#nomail Going offline? Don't AutoReply us!
email spamBeGonelistservspam_OUTspamRemoveMEmitvma.mit.edu with SET PICList DIGEST in the body


'[OT]: Our new friend (Ivan?)'
2004\02\17@104408 by Tom Deutschman
flavicon
face
A search of Google groups shows that .....noreligionspamRemoveMEinfinito.it is Ivan.
"Greets, Ivan" comes up with many more results...

Ivan, If this is you or even if it is not you, please refrain from
mentioning Olin in your posts. This is a technical help list. If you
are answering a request for help or are asking for help, then please
take your time and provide as much information as possible. Welcome to
the PICLIST.

Tom

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics
(like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

2004\02\17@104408 by Tom Deutschman

flavicon
face
A search of Google groups shows that noreligionspam@spam@infinito.it is Ivan.
"Greets, Ivan" comes up with many more results...

Ivan, If this is you or even if it is not you, please refrain from
mentioning Olin in your posts. This is a technical help list. If you
are answering a request for help or are asking for help, then please
take your time and provide as much information as possible. Welcome to
the PICLIST.

Tom

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics
(like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics


'[EE:] Firmware friendly chip-level design techniqu'
2004\03\22@235636 by Ken Pergola
flavicon
face
Might be an interesting read for some:

www.eedesign.com/features/exclusive/showArticle.jhtml?articleId=18312
202

Regards,

Ken Pergola

P.S. Some URL stitching may be needed if it gets word-wrapped...

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: PICList Posts must start with ONE topic:
[PIC]:,[SX]:,[AVR]: ->uP ONLY! [EE]:,[OT]: ->Other [BUY]:,[AD]: ->Ads

2004\03\23@005250 by Hopkins

flavicon
face
I get "Unable to access the article page you requested. Please check your
request and try again"????

*************************************************
Roy Hopkins   :-)

Tauranga
New Zealand
*************************************************

{Original Message removed}

2004\03\23@005701 by Liam O'Hagan

flavicon
face
Try changing the last part to 18312202, it got wrapped to the second line...

Probably why Ken said "P.S. Some URL stitching may be needed if it gets
word-wrapped..."

{Original Message removed}

2004\03\23@040440 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
> Might be an interesting read for some:

Certainly an interesting looking set of papers. I am amused to see in the
interrupt one a picture of a non-recommended way of setting interrupt
hierarchies, that looks an awful lot like the PIC cascaded register system
:))

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics
(like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics

2004\03\23@101006 by Ken Pergola

flavicon
face
Roy Hopkins wrote:

> I get "Unable to access the article page you requested. Please check your
> request and try again"????

Hi Roy,

In situations like that, I always suspect that the URL got word-wrapped.
Yeah, that's why I usually add the postscript to any URLs that I post:

P.S. Some URL stitching may be needed if it gets word-wrapped...


What I mean by that is that you have to re-assemble the URL if it gets
word-wrapped.


Best regards,

Ken Pergola

--
http://www.piclist.com hint: The list server can filter out subtopics
(like ads or off topics) for you. See http://www.piclist.com/#topics


'[OT][CAN] New version of CANAL & friends released'
2004\09\25@094551 by Ake Hedman
flavicon
face
Version 0.1.1 of CANAL and friends has been release.

The following has been fixed:

- Installation now starts the service after installation.

- A severe bug was found in the canal daemon/service which made it not receiving messages from devices. Fixed!

- Initiated the use of wxWidgets.

Source and or installation can be fetched from

http://www.vscp.org/downloads.html

regards
/Ake

--   ---
Ake Hedman (YAP - Yet Another Programmer)
eurosource, Brattbergavägen 17, 820 50 LOS, Sweden
Phone: (46) 657 413430 Cellular: (46) 73 84 84 102
Company home: http://www.eurosource.se
Kryddor/Te/Kaffe: http://www.brattberg.com
Personal homepage: http://www.eurosource.se/akhe
Automated home: http://www.vscp.org

_______________________________________________
http://www.piclist.com
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist


'[OT] Tumo(u)r suppressing genes - P52 and friends'
2004\12\27@083821 by Russell McMahon
face
flavicon
face
P53 is a key gene in human cancer suppression.

P53, RB, HPV

   http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/T/TumorSuppressorGenes.html

P53

   http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/bv.fcgi?call=bv.View..ShowSection&rid=gnd.section.107

Google:    p53 gene - 834,000 hits.
Many relevant.


'[OT][WOT] An eggtastic friend for you'
2006\08\13@231757 by Russell McMahon
face
flavicon
face
For those who say I spend too much time on line, here's a link to
prove them right.
In defence, it was on the "other things you may like" page I accessed
after buying a set of 4 LED pattern displaying wheel trims on my local
auction site. [[For those who wonder why - they are "self powered"
with an alternator comprising a ring magnet and multiple coils .
Propeller clocks and more serious devices beckon]].

       http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=66320106&

The questions are worth more than the ad itself.

Warning: page contains one line or irrelevant key words with sexual
content and a small amount of bad language from questioners who can't
quite believe this guy is for real. Otherwise it's almost suitable for
young children and may amuse some such greatly.



       RM

The internal alternator powered wheel trims.
At about $US3 per item they seem to be value for money :-)

       http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=65945340

Only 6 LEDs high (I', told by a friend who bought a set) so 5x7 text
not possible - but 6 high text is bearable in such applications.
Interesting.


2006\08\14@025123 by Russell McMahon

face
flavicon
face
I only read the start of the comments on that egg auction.
I printed a copy and gave it to my wife and she notes that the
readers' comments get increasingly unsuitable for children as they
proceed.

Recommended PG13 rating is hereby revoked :-(.


   Russell

2006\08\14@040347 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>The internal alternator powered wheel trims.
>At about $US3 per item they seem to be value for money :-)

Shucks, shades of the little fan I bought from a local shop for £1.99, with
a handful of single colour LEDS on one blade. Must have some form of tiny
micro in the rotor portion as each LED gets turned on at various rates to
make rotating patterns, which vary according to time. Doesn't seem to have
any index point to check the speed, as the LEDs still get turned off and on
if you stall it.

2006\08\14@052409 by Jinx

face picon face
> I printed a copy and gave it to my wife

Oh sure, shock the missus

Nobody'd bid on the egg last time I looked. Surprise, surprise


'[EE] Nerd-friendly remodeling tasks'
2007\03\23@162310 by Marcel Birthelmer
picon face
Hi all,
since I know there are a number of kindred spirits on this list, some
of whom have built their own homes from the ground up, I'd like to get
some ideas for my own humble abode.
The situation is that I just bought a duplex (signed all the papers
yesterday) that I will be sharing with my sister (one unit for each of
us, and we each get a 1-car garage). The building is probably a 50s
issue. The power outlets have no grounding. There seems to be some TV
cable that was pulled through the floor, and maybe some phone cabling
somewhere. In general, the units are in pretty bad shape, and there
will be a lot of work to do no matter what, so while I'm at it, I'd
also like to geek it up a notch.
So far my ideas revolve around laying Cat6 everywhere along with
properly grounded power. There will be some closet space dedicated to
a switch, and I'll have a storage server of some sort in the garage.
Other than that, what are some other fun things people have done/thought about?
The only real concern (aside from cost) is that I should be able to
perform the modifications myself. In particular, that probably rules
out laying fiber, since from what I've read, it's very difficult to
terminate properly.
I'd appreciate some suggestions, and also any worthwhile advice that
someone who may have faced a similar situation might have!
- Marcel

2007\03\23@164504 by David VanHorn

picon face
Definitely on the cat6, and pull two.
I pulled a scanner antenna coax, fed from a distribution amp as well.
Didn't bother with phones, I have a 2 line 5.6 GHz cordless that works
nicely.

My equipment room (laundry room) has heater/AC, water heater, a windows PC
running echolink on a 440 MHz link to a repeater, a linux PC running IRLP to
a different repeater, a VHF and a UHF repeater, repeater controller, some
VHF packet stuff, a 100 AH battery, 55A charger, two gigabit switches,
lightning detector and GPS (Boltek) and other odds and ends.

:)

2007\03\23@164722 by Bob Blick

face picon face

> So far my ideas revolve around laying Cat6
> everywhere along with
> properly grounded power. There will be some closet
> space dedicated to
> a switch, and I'll have a storage server of some
> sort in the garage.

I routed all phone and network cable to a closet and
although it works well, be aware that the normal
clutter in a closet will tend to make everything run
hotter than normal. Plus being an enclosed space, I
would not run anything that consumes more than a few
watts per device. I currently have a DSL router, 16
port switch, wireless router, burglar/fire panel and a
small UPS in the closet, and there is a small but
noticeable amount of heat released when you open the
door. Forget about putting a PC in there.

Cheerful regards,

Bob


2007\03\23@202644 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
As long as you are pulling CAT6, I would include some really low tech wires
like cheap 4 wire phone cable or the like for use with remote thermostats,
PIC serial or other stuff that doesn't have a network connection included.

Also, lots of insulation to keep down the heating/cooling bills and now that
you are a homeowner, unless it is in the frozen north, you should find that
P.V. Panels are effectively free:

http://www.massmind.org/techref/other/solar/panels.htm

http://www.massmind.org/techref/other/solar/case1.htm

I think the above are all solid, proven suggestions... And now for something
different:


On a south sunward wall, between windows, install a vent chimney in the wall
or on the outside of the wall with ducting in the wall.
http://www.massmind.org/techref/other/spac.htm#Vent

And on the north facing wall, perhaps a cooling tower.
http://www.massmind.org/techref/other/cooltower.htm

And put in a woodstove for heat.
http://www.massmind.org/techref/other/woodstoves.htm

---
James.



> {Original Message removed}

2007\03\23@221624 by Vasile Surducan

face picon face
Marcel,
Congratulation for your new home!
My own opinion is that using CAT6 or CAT5 is not so important than
having a loving wife around and a few childrens yelling at you...
:)

Vasile

On 3/23/07, Marcel Birthelmer <EraseMEmarcelb.listsRemoveMEspamSTOPspamgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2007\03\23@222338 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Fri, 2007-03-23 at 17:26 -0700, James Newtons Massmind wrote:
> As long as you are pulling CAT6, I would include some really low tech wires
> like cheap 4 wire phone cable or the like for use with remote thermostats,
> PIC serial or other stuff that doesn't have a network connection included.
>
> Also, lots of insulation to keep down the heating/cooling bills and now that
> you are a homeowner, unless it is in the frozen north, you should find that
> P.V. Panels are effectively free:
>
> http://www.massmind.org/techref/other/solar/panels.htm

I once read a study that determined that the manufacture of a PV panel
ended up using MORE energy then it will produce in it's lifetime. Anyone
else read that story?

On a similar topic,
http://omidr.typepad.com/torque/2007/03/toyotas_prius_i.html

I haven't been able to confirm this story elsewhere, but I have always
said that a hybrid car is NOWHERE near as good for the environment as
everyone claims it is. Basically you are simply diverting pollution in
your neighbourhood to the areas where the power plants are located.
Considering much of the US uses coal for power, this is often not a very
good thing.

I'm sick of people looking at how "good" something is for the planet,
without considering the WHOLE life cycle of the item. Often, the use of
the item is just a percentage of the total effect the manufacture and
disposal of that item has on the planet.

TTYL

2007\03\23@225031 by Bob Blick

face picon face


Herbert Graf wrote:

>
> On a similar topic,
> omidr.typepad.com/torque/2007/03/toyotas_prius_i.html
>
> I haven't been able to confirm this story elsewhere, but I have always
> said that a hybrid car is NOWHERE near as good for the environment as
> everyone claims it is.

Only if you believe the Hummer lasts 300,000 miles and the Prius just
100,000 miles. Personally I've owned both GM and Toyota vehicles and I'd
say the numbers should be reversed.

Cheerful regards,

Bob

'[OT] Sustainability was: Nerd-friendly remodeling '
2007\03\24@003428 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
> > Also, lots of insulation to keep down the heating/cooling bills and
> > now that you are a homeowner, unless it is in the frozen north, you
> > should find that P.V. Panels are effectively free:
> >
> > www.massmind.org/techref/other/solar/panels.htm
>
> I once read a study that determined that the manufacture of a
> PV panel ended up using MORE energy then it will produce in
> it's lifetime. Anyone else read that story?

If PV panels required more energy to produce than they would put back out
over their life time, how could a PV system ever hope to pay for itself? Do
you really think the mfgrs pay THAT much less for electricity?

My total system cost $21,000 (before the rebates) and it made $1,200 worth
of electricity last year. It will have "earned its keep" on the planet in
17.5 years. They are warranted for 25 years by Hitachi so I expect the will
at LEAST break even.

My payoff will be in 10.63 years ASSUMING the electric rates hold steady.
Based on the latest reports from the DOE, the price is going to soar in the
next few years and I stand to make a killing. <insert maniacal laughter>

{Quote hidden}

The nice thing about true sustainability is that it is almost always frugal.
The real cost to the planet of anything is the cost of the energy required
to make it. And that is just about always the ticket price of the item.

So a hybrid OR ANY OTHER NEW CAR costs what it does because of the energy
required to mine the metals, produce the plastics, transport, mold, bend,
assemble, feed the workers, and deliver it to your local dealer. ALL of that
is energy expended and ALL the energy costs us in pollution, heat and war.

When you look at the price increase required to purchase a hybrid over an
equivalent non-hybrid, and you figure out what that will save you over the
expected life of the car, you find out the hybrids don't pay off. And so
they aren't environmentally friendly.

So, yes, the hybrids are no where near as good as they think they are. But
neither is any other new car.

Save the planet: Be cheap, screw the Joneses (or at least screw keeping up
with them), put your ego aside and drive an old, high mileage, low
maintenance, compact car.

Like my '92 Civic. <grin>

---
James.


'[EE] Nerd-friendly remodeling tasks'
2007\03\24@003728 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
> Marcel,
> Congratulation for your new home!

I should have said that as well...

> My own opinion is that using CAT6 or CAT5 is not so important
> than having a loving wife around and a few childrens yelling at you...
> :)
>
> Vasile

At every chance, put down the CAT5, pick up the kids and smile at your wife.

I have a lovely family and a desk full of old projects that I will probably
never get to. Just as it should be.

Screw this, I'm going home.

---
James.


2007\03\24@003931 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Fri, 2007-03-23 at 19:50 -0700, Bob Blick wrote:
>
> Herbert Graf wrote:
>
> >
> > On a similar topic,
> > omidr.typepad.com/torque/2007/03/toyotas_prius_i.html
> >
> > I haven't been able to confirm this story elsewhere, but I have always
> > said that a hybrid car is NOWHERE near as good for the environment as
> > everyone claims it is.
>
> Only if you believe the Hummer lasts 300,000 miles and the Prius just
> 100,000 miles. Personally I've owned both GM and Toyota vehicles and I'd
> say the numbers should be reversed.

Not really. Remember, the battery packs have a limited lifetime. While
the rest of the car would probably be fine (although, at 100k miles some
things will need replacing) the battery packs will likely be EOL. I
believe that is where they are getting their 100k mile number.

Nevertheless, while that article may be a little "out there", is there
ANY doubt in your mind that the total energy to make, use and dispose of
a Prius is FAR more then other petrol or diesel only cars with similar
fuel economies (and yes, they do exist, have a look at the small diesel
cars in Europe, 4.4l/100km is a COMMON figure).

My point however stands: people must consider MORE then just the energy
use of something being used, the energy needed to make the item and
dispose of it MUST be considered.

TTYL

2007\03\24@004347 by Jake Anderson

flavicon
face
James Newtons Massmind wrote:
> As long as you are pulling CAT6, I would include some really low tech wires
> like cheap 4 wire phone cable or the like for use with remote thermostats,
> PIC serial or other stuff that doesn't have a network connection included.
>  
Perhaps some decent sized cable? run ~36V for all your low voltage
applications?

2007\03\24@005554 by Brian B. Riley

picon face

As a person living off of  the grid for 18 years I think I am in  
position to comment on a number of statements you make in your webpages.

You make the comment that it makes more 'cents' to be on grid solar  
than off ... a large number of off grid installations are done in  
locations where there is no power and running the grid to the  
location will cost up front $5K to $20K, which was  the case for me.  
I have done computations every couple of years and compared against  
having the grid extended to my location and paying a minimal electric  
bill monthly, I am still over $10K ahead.  Even with the advances  
that have taken place in the technology grid-tied PV would require an  
outlay on my part of $20K right now and even with net metering I  
couldn't begin to make that back in any reasonable time. Meanwhile, I  
have power 24/7 and have never been without, as opposed to some of my  
neighbors down the road who have had a over half dozen outages in the  
last three years several of them for periods beyond an entire day.

You also make statements that battery systems contain toxic  
materials. But you neglect to mention that the most toxic substance  
involved, the lead plates of the batteries is also one of the most  
heavily recycled materials. I am just starting on my third set of  
batteries. and each of the two times I had no problem getting them to  
a recycler. Recycled lead only requires only 5% as much energy to  
reprocess as the same amount produced from raw ore, they are quite  
happy to get it back.

---
cheers ... 73 de brian  riley,  n1bq , underhill center, vermont
  <http://web.mac.com/brianbr/>  Tech Blog
  <http://www.wulfden.org/TheShoppe.shtml>
   Home of the
      K107 Serial LCD Controller Kit   FT817 Power Conditioner Kit
      Tab Robot Laser Tag Kit            MSP430 Chips and Connectors
      Propeller Robot Controller         SX48 "Tech Board" Kit




On Mar 23, 2007, at 8:26 PM, James Newtons Massmind wrote:

{Quote hidden}

>> {Original Message removed}

'[OT] Sustainability was: Nerd-friendly remodeling '
2007\03\24@013254 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face

On Mar 23, 2007, at 9:34 PM, James Newtons Massmind wrote:

> old, high mileage, low maintenance, compact car.

(Can you really get all those together?)

All things considered, I would bet that the overall energy cost
to manufacture and dispose of a car is pretty close to proportional
the total mass of the car.  That is, I bet it takes more energy to
refine and recycle the metal than anything else.  The hummer weighs
about 1800lbs more than the prius; stop whining about the energy cost
of shipping the 150lbs of battery around and tell be about shipping
all that steel...

But what can I say; I'm a prius owner and immediately suspect. :-)

I didn't get it because it's maximally energy efficient; a motorcycle
would do better, as would suffering public transportation.  I did get
it because I think it is particularly energy efficient for the class
of car; compare milage to subcompact diesels (which aren't available
here, BTW) if you want; the prius is NOT a subcompact...

BillW

'[EE] Nerd-friendly remodeling tasks'
2007\03\24@090731 by John Ferrell

face picon face
Congratulations!

I prefer the strategy of providing access to all services rather than
solving the immediate problems. If you need to open a wall for any reason
consider an access panel rather than sealing it up. It is best to decide on
your plumbing strategy in advance of problems. Where do you draw the line
between self service and seeking outside help?

Instead of sealing every thing up, keep things accessible. Cat 6 is only
today's spec. Removable panels and reliable connections are a must.
Maintaining building codes is also a must. It is a matter of long term
safety. If you have to replace any power wiring be sure to think it through.
Bigger is usually better but it is more expensive and more difficult to work
with. Try to stay legal as well. Proper grounding is a safety issue as well
as an economic issue!

Wireless devices and power line communications do not work as well as hard
wire. However, wireless devices provide good lightning isolation!


John Ferrell    W8CCW
"Life is easier if you learn to plow
      around the stumps"
http://DixieNC.US

{Original Message removed}

2007\03\24@113553 by Dario Greggio

face picon face
Jake Anderson wrote:

> Perhaps some decent sized cable? run ~36V for all your low voltage
> applications?

I use a 24V 1mm red-black wires, all around home, together with Cat5.

--
Ciao, Dario
--
ADPM Synthesis sas - Torino

'[OT] Sustainability was: Nerd-friendly remodeling '
2007\03\24@114216 by Dario Greggio

face picon face
James Newtons Massmind wrote:

> My total system cost $21,000 (before the rebates) and it made $1,200 worth
> of electricity last year. It will have "earned its keep" on the planet in
> 17.5 years. They are warranted for 25 years by Hitachi so I expect the will
> at LEAST break even.
>
> My payoff will be in 10.63 years ASSUMING the electric rates hold steady.
> Based on the latest reports from the DOE, the price is going to soar in the
> next few years and I stand to make a killing. <insert maniacal laughter>

I got same figures here in Italy last week, listening to some persons/firms.
I'm going to install my own plant too, as I get my new house (maybe some
10.000 EUR worth, 2KW circa)

--
Ciao, Dario

'[EE] Nerd-friendly remodeling tasks'
2007\03\24@122807 by peter green

flavicon
face
part 1 1258 bytes content-type:text/plain; (unknown type 8bit not decoded)



> -----Original Message-----
> From: RemoveMEpiclist-bouncesKILLspamspamTakeThisOuTmit.edu [spamBeGonepiclist-bouncesspam@spam@mit.edu]On
> Behalf Of Jake Anderson
> Sent: 24 March 2007 04:44
> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
> Subject: Re: [EE] Nerd-friendly remodeling tasks
>
>
> James Newtons Massmind wrote:
> > As long as you are pulling CAT6, I would include some really
> low tech wires
> > like cheap 4 wire phone cable or the like for use with remote
> thermostats,
> > PIC serial or other stuff that doesn't have a network
> connection included.
> >  
> Perhaps some decent sized cable? run ~36V for all your low voltage
> applications?
i don't honestly see much point in doing this unless you are say adding battery backup or solar power or similar to the supply as well. your just adding a high loss cable run (remember if you double the voltage and keep the cable size the same you cut your power loss by a factor of 4 )and yet another conversion step in the path from mains to device.
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.17/731 - Release Date: 23/03/2007 15:27




part 2 35 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
(decoded 7bit)

2007\03\24@150142 by PICLIST

flavicon
face
If at all possible, I would not think about running various types of cable at
all. Run conduit from accessible but relatively hidden places in the house
(unfinished basement, crawl spaces, ceilings of closets, behind cupboards, etc.)
to where you might need the connections. Then fish a string through the
conduits. When you need a wire somewhere, use the string to pull it and another
string through.

Cold air ducts are often good places to run the wires. Officially they may be
designated as plenums, so special rules exist for fire safety some times. A
conduit may be sufficient to satisfy the plenum requirements.

Wiring technology changes fast. CAT3 became CAT5, became CAT6. Fiber is becoming
more common, etc. Do you want Coax for cable TV / Satellites? You can be
guaranteed that if you run some wires, you'll soon enough find somewhere where
you want more, and most of them will remain unused.

With conduits available, you can easily get what you want to where you want it.

{Original Message removed}

2007\03\24@185549 by Jake Anderson

flavicon
face
part 0 44 bytes
his is a multi-part message in MIME format.
part 1 945 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset=windows-1250 (decoded 7bit)


>> Perhaps some decent sized cable? run ~36V for all your low voltage
>> applications?
>>    
> i don't honestly see much point in doing this unless you are say adding battery backup or solar power or similar to the supply as well. your just adding a high loss cable run (remember if you double the voltage and keep the cable size the same you cut your power loss by a factor of 4 )and yet another conversion step in the path from mains to device.
>  

Mains stuff scares me ;->
I'd rather have one mains device with stepdown converter with some heavy
guage wiring (>3mm^2) then all i need to put my "magic device" in is a
7805 or a switching equivalent.

Personally I feel all power is going to go to being DC anyway. 50/60hz
AC is on the way out, give it 200-300 years and we will all be running
500V DC circuits into our homes, you want AC 240v buy a converter.



part 2 35 bytes content-type:text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
(decoded 7bit)

'[OT] Sustainability was: Nerd-friendly remodeling '
2007\03\24@191223 by Jake Anderson

flavicon
face
Dario Greggio wrote:
> James Newtons Massmind wrote:
>
>  
>> My total system cost $21,000 (before the rebates) and it made $1,200 worth
>> of electricity last year. It will have "earned its keep" on the planet in
>> 17.5 years. They are warranted for 25 years by Hitachi so I expect the will
>> at LEAST break even.
>>
>> My payoff will be in 10.63 years ASSUMING the electric rates hold steady.
>> Based on the latest reports from the DOE, the price is going to soar in the
>> next few years and I stand to make a killing. <insert maniacal laughter>
>>    
>
> I got same figures here in Italy last week, listening to some persons/firms.
> I'm going to install my own plant too, as I get my new house (maybe some
> 10.000 EUR worth, 2KW circa)
>
>  
I often wonder if a solar concentrator with some kind of steam engine
would be a cheaper way of generating solar than PV panels. The panels
seem expensive per area and they are ~20% efficient. Most of the "big"
solar generating proposals seem to use similar systems, not PV's. Spin
casting a parabolic dish shouldn't be too difficult for say ~2m in size
(diameter) pointing it is the tricky part and a PIC with a decent clock
can do that standing on its ear ;-> the steam generator, well I'd call
that fun to build and go from there.

At the moment lead acid batteries are probably the way to go. Though
there is a material that produces hydrogen when exposed to light and
immersed in water, so that could be a better way of generating nighttime
power and fuel for your car.

'[EE] Nerd-friendly remodeling tasks'
2007\03\24@191410 by Carl Denk

flavicon
face
And when you pull wire into the empty (or other wires already) conduit,
pull a string with it. Then when you want another wire in that conduit,
just pull the new wire, and of course another string for the next time. :)

PICLIST wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> {Original Message removed}

2007\03\24@201119 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
Thanks for pointing out another point of view. For users off the grid, off
the grid power is cost effective, of course. I'm also pleased to hear that
lead acid cells can be recycled, I did not know that.

---
James.



> {Original Message removed}

2007\03\24@201518 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
> And when you pull wire into the empty (or other wires
> already) conduit, pull a string with it. Then when you want
> another wire in that conduit, just pull the new wire, and of
> course another string for the next time. :)

That is worth repeating.

---
James.


2007\03\24@230446 by Orin Eman

picon face
On 3/23/07, Bob Blick <RemoveMEbbblickspam_OUTspamsbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>
> Herbert Graf wrote:
>
> >
> > On a similar topic,
> > omidr.typepad.com/torque/2007/03/toyotas_prius_i.html
> >
> > I haven't been able to confirm this story elsewhere, but I have always
> > said that a hybrid car is NOWHERE near as good for the environment as
> > everyone claims it is.
>
> Only if you believe the Hummer lasts 300,000 miles and the Prius just
> 100,000 miles. Personally I've owned both GM and Toyota vehicles and I'd
> say the numbers should be reversed.

A bit late replying here, but I just remembered to look up the primary
use of nickel (dig down to the original web site to see rant on nickel
production and polution).

Approximately two thirds of worldwide nickel production is used in
stainless steel.  Batteries isn't even on the chart - probably buried
in the 5% other chemical uses.

(Numbers I saw go by - worldwide production 1.3 million tonnes, Toyota
for batteries, 1000 tons.  Units are close enough assuming the pages I
saw the numbers on used the right ones anyway.)

Orin.

2007\03\26@095525 by M. Adam Davis

face picon face
As long as you lay 2 cat6 cables to each location, you'll likely be
happy with it for years to come.  It'll be cheaper and faster than
wireless, but a lot more work.  Quite frankly, when I moved into my
current house I simply went with wireless.  My hubs only go to 100mbps
anyway, and wireless is fast enough for the internet which is what the
network is used 95% of the time for anyway.  The only drawing back is
transferring large GB files from computer to computer, and at this
point running cat5 through the ducts would be a better (faster,
cheaper) choice than running it everywhere.

If you get plenum rated cat6 you can wire it through heating ducts
(which you may or may not have).  The plenum rating indicates that if
it overheats or catches fire then 1) it is fire resistant so unless
heat is constantly applied it will self extinguish and 2) smoke from
the plastic is not terribly toxic (well, as smoke goes).  Don't run
mains through ducts though - only low voltage cabling.

Others have mentioned pulling a low voltage source as well - I'd avoid
that.  If you must you can use the second cat6 cable for DC voltage.
Ideally, however, you'll simply consider power over ethernet.  I
suspect that the costs for PoE are going to drop significantly over
the next few years.

The second cable can be used for phone, sensors, rs-485/232/etc,
power, or even as the rope used to pull some later cable.  Don't worry
about fiber - there's no use for it given that you can run gigabit
ethernet over cat6.  If you think you need 10G ethernet, consider that
your average computer can't run that fast so it's largely useless
except as in interconnect between routers and such.

When I finished a basement I also added coax everywhere.  Never used
all of it, but it was very handy when I wanted it.

Also, adding extra cat6 cabling will not increase the value of your
house.  Most people don't need the speed and wouldn't know what to do
with it, and geeks largely want to have it set up differently than
previous geeks set it up.

Spend most of your time working on the mundane but more frequently
used areas of the house - doors, kitchen, yard, etc.

-Adam

On 3/23/07, Marcel Birthelmer <marcelb.listsspamspamgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

'[OT] Sustainability was: Nerd-friendly remodeling '
2007\03\26@101240 by Mike Hord

picon face
> Save the planet: Be cheap, screw the Joneses (or at least screw keeping up
> with them), put your ego aside and drive an old, high mileage, low
> maintenance, compact car.
>
> Like my '92 Civic. <grin>

And if you're really worried about emissions:
http://www.nativeenergy.com/travel/
where you can purchase carbon credits that otherwise would be sold to
large companies.

I don't know what the amount of carbon released per joule of coal power
is versus per joule of gasoline in a car.  Anyone?

Mike H.

'[EE] Nerd-friendly remodeling tasks'
2007\03\26@120430 by Aaron

picon face


James Newtons Massmind wrote:

>I'm also pleased to hear that
>lead acid cells can be recycled
>  
>

Absolutely!  Next time the battery in your '92 Civic goes bad, visit the
nearest auto parts store.  They will be happy to sell you a new battery
and charge you extra if they don't get the old one back!

Aaron

2007\03\26@123102 by Alex Harford

face picon face
On 3/23/07, Herbert Graf <spam_OUTmailinglist3spam_OUTspamspam_OUTfarcite.net> wrote:
>
> >
> > Only if you believe the Hummer lasts 300,000 miles and the Prius just
> > 100,000 miles. Personally I've owned both GM and Toyota vehicles and I'd
> > say the numbers should be reversed.
>
> Not really. Remember, the battery packs have a limited lifetime. While
> the rest of the car would probably be fine (although, at 100k miles some
> things will need replacing) the battery packs will likely be EOL. I
> believe that is where they are getting their 100k mile number.
>
> Nevertheless, while that article may be a little "out there", is there
> ANY doubt in your mind that the total energy to make, use and dispose of
> a Prius is FAR more then other petrol or diesel only cars with similar
> fuel economies (and yes, they do exist, have a look at the small diesel
> cars in Europe, 4.4l/100km is a COMMON figure).

Yellow Cab in Vancouver uses Priuses, and they have reached over 300k
km's (200k miles) on their original battery packs.  They also need
less maintenance for things like brake components because they use
regenerative braking.

www.grist.org/news/maindish/2005/08/02/sainsbury-cab/
http://www.hybridcars.com/component/option,com_joomblog/Itemid,0/joomblog_task,blog_view/joomblog_contentid,12222/

I highly doubt that a Hummer's drivetrain can last 300k miles.

Alex

2007\03\26@123207 by alan smith

picon face
Dusk sensor outside for controlling external lighting
 
 Run your lighting circuits to a central area, so later you can control each light (and outlets?) by relay control...poor mans home automation.  Sure its more wire right now, but later on, its nice to have that.
 
 As someone else mentioned....two pairs of coax all routed thru a central distro point, so you can either feed from or feed to an entertainment center.
 
 Add a coax/power for a remote camera by the front door


---------------------------------
Be a PS3 game guru.
Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.

2007\03\26@141610 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Mon, 2007-03-26 at 09:30 -0700, Alex Harford wrote:
{Quote hidden}

But how old are these 300k cars? Cabs are driven ALOT more then your
average car. I wouldn't be surprised if these 300k cars are 2 years old,
or less. Time is a very important factor with batteries.

For a "normal" driver, 20-25000kms a year is "normal". So to get
160,000kms would take lets say 6-7 years. Show me a rechargeable battery
commonly used that after 7 years of use is still useful? I've seen very
few. NiCads usually are finished (and sometimes leaking) after about 5
years in my experience. NiMH, similar number. Lithium Ion are worse,
often after 3 years of regular use the batteries become almost useless.
Lead acid is the best in my experience, but even with them, after 7
years of use most lead acid batteries are too far gone to be of much use
anymore.

I will be VERY surprised if the battery packs in a 7 year old Prius are
still in good enough shape to be useful. I guess we'll see.

TTYL

2007\03\26@144803 by David VanHorn

picon face
>
>
> I use a 24V 1mm red-black wires, all around home, together with Cat5.



I thought about it, but I was worried about running cables that could carry
enough current to be useful, and the possibilities of fire/noise/RF.  Fuses
and breakers are ok, but I prefer small local power sources.  The equipment
room has it's own power system and battery, and the radio room does too. No
need to intertie them.  If it pops up in a special circumstance, I have long
powerpoled cables.

'[OT] Sustainability was: Nerd-friendly remodeling '
2007\03\26@203352 by Peter P.

picon face
Mike Hord <mike.hord <at> gmail.com> writes:

> I don't know what the amount of carbon released per joule of coal power
> is versus per joule of gasoline in a car.  Anyone?

Coal releases more. There is little H2 in coal (there is a lot in oil).

Peter P.


2007\03\26@213704 by Aaron

picon face


William Chops Westfield wrote:

{Quote hidden}

I think so.  I'm driving a '91 Pontiac Grand Am with 220,000 miles on
it.  Last three years, I've spent less than $500 (total) on maintenance
& repairs.  It hasn't left me sit, but it has limped home a few times
and I drove a different vehicle a few days while repairs were being done.

Downside is that it is the ugliest looking car in the company parking lot.

Aaron

2007\03\26@222803 by Martin Klingensmith

picon face
An old Geo Prizm should be pretty cheap and run about forever, as long as
it's one with a Toyota engine.
--
Martin K

On 3/26/07, Aaron <RemoveMEaaron.groupsKILLspamspam@spam@gmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2007\03\26@223311 by James Newtons Massmind

face picon face
> >>old, high mileage, low maintenance, compact car.
> >>    
> >>
> >
> >(Can you really get all those together?)
> >  
> >
>
> I think so.  I'm driving a '91 Pontiac Grand Am with 220,000
> miles on it.  Last three years, I've spent less than $500
> (total) on maintenance & repairs.  It hasn't left me sit, but
> it has limped home a few times and I drove a different
> vehicle a few days while repairs were being done.
>
> Downside is that it is the ugliest looking car in the company
> parking lot.
>
> Aaron


Be proud of it! I need to make up a sign or something for my old Civic that
explains why it is better for the environment than any sleek new hybrid and
tons better than an SUV. Sure, no one will read it, still..

---
James.


'[EE] Nerd-friendly remodeling tasks'
2007\03\27@014101 by Ed Reed

picon face
I know this is getting way off topic but I really feel the need to say something on this.

I've been a Prius owner for going on three years. I bought my first one because of my long commute. My first Prius already has over one hundred thousand miles and I just bought my second. Now, as one who has actually reached that milestone, Toyota has not made me replace the batteries. They only say that the warranty on the batteries is for that length of service. My service department has told me as long as they continue to work without any noticeable loss in efficiency then there's no reason to replace them. There's no telling when I will have to replace them. Now, as for the other claim about diverting pollution, the EPA has already said that hybrid and/or electric vehicles, when all consumption is considered, create nearly 90 percent less pollution then the average standard internal combustion vehicles. Electric power plants certainly create pollution but the regulations that govern them are far stricter than that of a regular car. If the same regulations applied then re!
gular cars would be so expensive the average person wouldn't be able to afford one. As new 'green' forms of electric energy are added to the grid it gets even better. So anytime we move our consumption and pollution away from regular cars and trucks to the main power grid we are producing less pollution and not by just a little bit either.


'[OT] Sustainability was: Nerd-friendly remodeling '
2007\03\27@040028 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Downside is that it is the ugliest looking car in the company parking lot.

<VBG> Guess no-one is going to pinch it then ...

'[EE] Nerd-friendly remodeling tasks'
2007\03\27@065448 by Breesy

flavicon
face
"the EPA has already said that hybrid and/or electric vehicles, when all
consumption is considered, create nearly 90 percent less pollution then
the average standard internal combustion vehicles"

An important thing to note here is that they are talking about true
hybrids, which are powered electrically unless the ICE needs to start
because of a long trip/forgot to charge/big hill etc.. In many respects
Prius's are not true hybrids but ICE's with an electric regenerative
braking system... I believe the main reason for its fuel consumption
figures, is its size, shap, efficient engine, low friction tyres, etc..

Ed Reed wrote:
> I know this is getting way off topic but I really feel the need to say something on this.
>  
> I've been a Prius owner for going on three years. I bought my first one because of my long commute. My first Prius already has over one hundred thousand miles and I just bought my second. Now, as one who has actually reached that milestone, Toyota has not made me replace the batteries. They only say that the warranty on the batteries is for that length of service. My service department has told me as long as they continue to work without any noticeable loss in efficiency then there's no reason to replace them. There's no telling when I will have to replace them. Now, as for the other claim about diverting pollution, the EPA has already said that hybrid and/or electric vehicles, when all consumption is considered, create nearly 90 percent less pollution then the average standard internal combustion vehicles. Electric power plants certainly create pollution but the regulations that govern them are far stricter than that of a regular car. If the same regulations applied then !
re!
>  gular cars would be so expensive the average person wouldn't be able to afford one. As new 'green' forms of electric energy are added to the grid it gets even better. So anytime we move our consumption and pollution away from regular cars and trucks to the main power grid we are producing less pollution and not by just a little bit either.
>
>  
>  


2007\03\27@072231 by Jake Anderson

flavicon
face
Breesy wrote:
> "the EPA has already said that hybrid and/or electric vehicles, when all
> consumption is considered, create nearly 90 percent less pollution then
> the average standard internal combustion vehicles"
>
> An important thing to note here is that they are talking about true
> hybrids, which are powered electrically unless the ICE needs to start
> because of a long trip/forgot to charge/big hill etc.. In many respects
> Prius's are not true hybrids but ICE's with an electric regenerative
> braking system... I believe the main reason for its fuel consumption
> figures, is its size, shap, efficient engine, low friction tyres, etc..
>
>  
Its fuel consumption is about 1L/100km better than a Mitsubishi colt,
and its price is about $20k-30k more.
A diesel car of about the same size and performance achieves the same or
better fuel economy.

'[OT] Sustainability was: Nerd-friendly remodeling '
2007\03\27@092135 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Peter P. wrote:

> Mike Hord <mike.hord <at> gmail.com> writes:
>
>> I don't know what the amount of carbon released per joule of coal power
>> is versus per joule of gasoline in a car.  Anyone?
>
> Coal releases more. There is little H2 in coal (there is a lot in oil).

Are you considering the efficiency differences?

Gerhard

2007\03\27@095110 by Mike Hord

picon face
> >> I don't know what the amount of carbon released per joule of coal power
> >> is versus per joule of gasoline in a car.  Anyone?
> >
> > Coal releases more. There is little H2 in coal (there is a lot in oil).
>
> Are you considering the efficiency differences?

I guess that was my intent- I know coal has more carbon, but what
I DON'T know is how much better your average car is at removing/
suppressing the emissions than a coal fired power plant.

If I had to guess, I'd put them in this order, from best to worst:
1.  Coal gassification plant
2.  Modern PZEV gasoline engine
3.  Modern low-emission diesel with low sulphur fuel
4.  "Traditional" gasoline engine
5.  Coal fired plant
6.  "Traditional" diesel.

This in terms of kg of carbon released per joule of actual work
performed at the load- in other words, all other things being
equal, if I used an electric car and charged it's battery from a
coal gassification plant, it would be better than using a gas
engine, despite the cost associated with transporting coal
and distribution grid losses, etc.

Wild conjecture on my part and I'm more than willing to be
educated (in fact, I think I may do a little research on my own).

Mike H.

2007\03\27@104812 by Michael Rigby-Jones

picon face


{Quote hidden}

In terms of only CO2 emissions, I think the coal will be somewhat worse than even old technology diesel engines.  

A quick google seems to confirm this http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/co2-emission-fuels-d_1085.html

Modern gas/diesel engines do not magicaly produce less CO2 from a given amount of fuel, they simply burn a little less fuel for a given power output.  Also, for gasoline engines of simmilar efficiency, a catalysed engine will actualy emit a little more CO2 than a non-catalysed one as any CO and unburnt hydrocarbons are converted to CO2.

Regards

Mike

=======================================================================
This e-mail is intended for the person it is addressed to only. The
information contained in it may be confidential and/or protected by
law. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, you must
not make any use of this information, or copy or show it to any
person. Please contact us immediately to tell us that you have
received this e-mail, and return the original to us. Any use,
forwarding, printing or copying of this message is strictly prohibited.
No part of this message can be considered a request for goods or
services.
=======================================================================

2007\03\27@113400 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Mike,

On Tue, 27 Mar 2007 08:51:09 -0500, Mike Hord wrote:

>...
> If I had to guess, I'd put them in this order, from best to worst:
> 1.  Coal gassification plant
> 2.  Modern PZEV gasoline engine
> 3.  Modern low-emission diesel with low sulphur fuel
> 4.  "Traditional" gasoline engine
> 5.  Coal fired plant
> 6.  "Traditional" diesel.

You don't mention LPG - do you have LPG conversions of petrol engines in the US?  They've been available in the UK
for twenty years or so, but it's only recently that the fuel has been easily available.  I'd put them at about number 2.5
in your list.

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2007\03\27@132614 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Michael Rigby-Jones wrote:

>>If I had to guess, I'd put them in this order, from best to
>>worst: 1.  Coal gassification plant 2.  Modern PZEV gasoline
>>engine 3.  Modern low-emission diesel with low sulphur fuel 4.
>> "Traditional" gasoline engine 5.  Coal fired plant 6.  
>>"Traditional" diesel.
>>
>>This in terms of kg of carbon released per joule of actual
>>work performed at the load-

> In terms of only CO2 emissions, I think the coal will be somewhat worse
> than even old technology diesel engines.
>
> A quick google seems to confirm this
> http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/co2-emission-fuels-d_1085.html

This table doesn't seem to take the efficiency differences into account. I
don't think a typical street vehicle gasoline engine is particularly
efficient in generating mechanical energy from chemical energy, compared to
a plant generator and electrical motor.

And while we're there, we need also to take the resources into account that
are needed to extract and refine the fuels. Gasoline probably needs more
energy to extract, refine and transport to the end user (the vehicle's
tank) than the coal.

Gerhard

'[EE] Nerd-friendly remodeling tasks'
2007\03\27@140322 by William Chops Westfield

face picon face

On Mar 27, 2007, at 4:22 AM, Jake Anderson wrote:

> [Prius] fuel consumption is about 1L/100km better than a Mitsubishi
> colt, and its price is about $20k-30k more. A diesel car of about
> the same size and performance achieves the same or better fuel economy.
>
Um, I'm not enough of a car person to spend a lot of time defending my
choice of car, but just to be clear, this would be the "mitsubishi colt"
"not made for the american market" and the diesel cars "not legal to
sell in California", right?

My Prius was about $26k out-of-pocket; you're saying you can get a
Colt for $10k or so?  The prices I saw on  UK mitsubishi site say
closer to 10k pounds. (7.5k to 16k)  (of course, I don't claim to
understand car pricing.  If I were a tad more cynical, I might suspect
that the Prius carries a price premium just so potential buyers can
get their "of course I didn't do it save MONEY (I'm so wealthy that
I don't need to save money); I did it because I CARE about the
environment" conspicuous consumption quota in.  Nah.

It's interesting that people are mentioned "small old efficient cars"
that are reported to get about 30mpg.  I don't think I'd call that
"efficient" (closer to "average" ?)

BillW

2007\03\27@152521 by Orin Eman

picon face
On 3/27/07, William Chops Westfield <spam_OUTwestfwspamKILLspammac.com> wrote:
> It's interesting that people are mentioned "small old efficient cars"
> that are reported to get about 30mpg.  I don't think I'd call that
> "efficient" (closer to "average" ?)

And the current Prius is NOT a small car.  Currently classified as mid-size.

It is true that it gets a lot of its efficiency from its shape (at
highway speeds) and small engine.

Orin.

2007\03\27@181610 by Martin Klingensmith

picon face
30 is significantly above average in the US.
--
Martin K

On 3/27/07, William Chops Westfield <RemoveMEwestfwRemoveMEspamEraseMEmac.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> It's interesting that people are mentioned "small old efficient cars"
> that are reported to get about 30mpg.  I don't think I'd call that
> "efficient" (closer to "average" ?)
>
> BillW
> -

2007\03\27@190950 by Nate Duehr

face
flavicon
face
On 3/27/07, William Chops Westfield <KILLspamwestfwspamspamBeGonemac.com> wrote:
>
> On Mar 27, 2007, at 4:22 AM, Jake Anderson wrote:
>
> > [Prius] fuel consumption is about 1L/100km better than a Mitsubishi
> > colt, and its price is about $20k-30k more. A diesel car of about
> > the same size and performance achieves the same or better fuel economy.
> >
> Um, I'm not enough of a car person to spend a lot of time defending my
> choice of car, but just to be clear, this would be the "mitsubishi colt"
> "not made for the american market" and the diesel cars "not legal to
> sell in California", right?

Now that the US has USLD (ultra-low sulfer diesel) -- something Europe
has always had, diesels are a nice option.

My wife's Jetta wagon (far bigger and more comfortable than a Prius,
with a turbo-charged 110 HP engine that can actually climb the
mountains we have here in Colorado with ease) weighted in at 37 MPG on
a recent trip to/from Las Vegas from Denver (over the mountains,
twice) at roughly 70 MPH.  I waved at the Prius drivers as I flew past
them...

The Jetta's engine sadly didn't meet the newer EPA requirements for
diesel passenger cars (which are flawed in numerous ways... the US is
really hung up on NOx and particulate emissions from CARS, but allow
busses, commercial trucks, and everything else diesel powered to spew
them - the joys of corporate political pressure and buying power to
purchase politicians), but Jeep will be putting a Mercedes-Benz 3.0L
diesel powerplant in the Grand Cherokee this year, amongst others that
meet the new requirements... even as they had to remove the older
Italian-made diesel engine option from the Liberty lineup, which was a
VERY popular option.

Generally, various technologies will make the passenger "car" diesel
engines meet the new requirements, along with ULSD.

Oh, did I mention the Jetta wagon was also cheaper than the Prius, and
the interior is the spitting image of an Audi A4?  :-)  Too late, the
EPA didn't like them, so you can't have one... glad we got ours when
we did!

> My Prius was about $26k out-of-pocket; you're saying you can get a
> Colt for $10k or so?  The prices I saw on  UK mitsubishi site say
> closer to 10k pounds. (7.5k to 16k)  (of course, I don't claim to
> understand car pricing.  If I were a tad more cynical, I might suspect
> that the Prius carries a price premium just so potential buyers can
> get their "of course I didn't do it save MONEY (I'm so wealthy that
> I don't need to save money); I did it because I CARE about the
> environment" conspicuous consumption quota in.  Nah.

There's a great bumper sticker floating around here locally...
"Your Hybrid isn't saving the planet, it's just making you feel better."

> It's interesting that people are mentioned "small old efficient cars"
> that are reported to get about 30mpg.  I don't think I'd call that
> "efficient" (closer to "average" ?)

Depends on the size of vehicle you need/have to drive.

In mountainous areas like Colorado, buying the smallest engine in any
car, is a sure way to become a really annoying slow speed bump when
headed up the West side of the hill toward's the Eisenhower Tunnel on
I-70... with the roadway being at altitude (loss of power - a lot of
power!) and a very steep climb, you're just in the way if you have a
small engine in your car, and usually a hazard to traffic... unless
you're willing to downshift and red-line the small engine all the way
up the hill.

All of your road-mates who live here, realize this (possibly from
previous mistakes) and purchase appropriate engines in their vehicles
for conditions...

And, of course, if you need to TOW anything regularly -- the higher
overall torque ratings of most diesels and reasonable highway mileage
numbers, make them excellent pullers...

Nate

2007\03\27@193114 by Jinx

face picon face

> Now that the US has USLD (ultra-low sulfer diesel) -- something
> Europe has always had, diesels are a nice option.

Hopefully in this country that will be encouraged

"Tax cuts for small diesel cars on the cards"

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10431252

2007\03\27@195055 by Bob Blick

face picon face

--- Nate Duehr <natespamspamnatetech.com> wrote:

> There's a great bumper sticker floating around here
> locally...
> "Your Hybrid isn't saving the planet, it's just
> making you feel better."

I take it the creators of South Park have the
residents of Colorado pegged pretty accurately? The
altitiude probably has something to do with the
attitude - the air is naturally cleaner up there.

Los Angeles has a lot nicer air now than in the '70's
- Thanks to the EPA and CARB.

If I'm stuck in traffic I'd rather be behind a hybrid
than a diesel.

Biannual smog tests are also pretty effective. Last
time I was in Oregon it seemed every other car had
somehow "lost" its catalytic converter.

There's a lot more to hybrids than fuel economy. They
make city air cleaner. And the fuel economy is real -
it's not just tires and aerodynamics.

Cheerful regards,

Bob

2007\03\27@200024 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Tue, 2007-03-27 at 17:09 -0600, Nate Duehr wrote:
> In mountainous areas like Colorado, buying the smallest engine in any
> car, is a sure way to become a really annoying slow speed bump when
> headed up the West side of the hill toward's the Eisenhower Tunnel on
> I-70... with the roadway being at altitude (loss of power - a lot of
> power!) and a very steep climb, you're just in the way if you have a
> small engine in your car, and usually a hazard to traffic... unless
> you're willing to downshift and red-line the small engine all the way
> up the hill.

It's funny, on my latest trip to Austria I rented a Skoda Fabia wagon.
It's a smaller car, think subaru imprezza wagon size. It had a 3
cylinder, 1.4L Turbo diesel (a VW engine). Certainly doesn't sound like
a powerful engine, only 70hp, and it's 0-60 was quite horrible (I
clocked about 16, probably could have squeezed another second or perhaps
two with practice, but certainly no more then that).

That said, I drove up to the observation point on the tallest mountain
in Austria (http://www.grossglockner.com). The road was long, steep and
wound up the mountain like a snake. Despite such a small engine, I never
felt much of a lack of power, third and fourth gear the whole way up,
except for some of the hairpins where speed alone made me go down to
2nd.

It just kept going up that hill, despite the steepness, despite the
altitude. It REALLY proved to me how much better a diesel car can be.

I drove that car for roughly 3300km in total, including two days of
about 10 hours driving each. I was never uncomfortable, there was lots
of room. At one point my mom wanted to pick up a garden table from a
store. Looking at the box she was convinced we'd have to go back home
and get the trailer, I assured her it would fit. It was tight, but it
fit, she was amazed.

Coming back to North America I realized how backwards we are when it
comes to vehicles. For some reason we North Americans are completely
oblivious to HOW GOOD diesel cars are these days. It's a shame.

TTYL

2007\03\27@215617 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Herbert Graf wrote:

> That said, I drove up to the observation point on the tallest mountain
> in Austria (http://www.grossglockner.com). The road was long, steep and
> wound up the mountain like a snake. Despite such a small engine, I never
> felt much of a lack of power, third and fourth gear the whole way up,
> except for some of the hairpins where speed alone made me go down to
> 2nd.
>
> It just kept going up that hill, despite the steepness, despite the
> altitude. It REALLY proved to me how much better a diesel car can be.

They generally have a lot of torque at low rpms, that's why they are so
nice for towing and in the mountains. (Maximum power is just one data point
of the engine performance.) But they are not so good at accelerating --
that's why you probably won't see a diesel in a Formula I car anytime soon
:)

Gerhard

2007\03\27@223013 by Herbert Graf

flavicon
face
On Tue, 2007-03-27 at 22:55 -0300, Gerhard Fiedler wrote:
> Herbert Graf wrote:
>
> > That said, I drove up to the observation point on the tallest mountain
> > in Austria (http://www.grossglockner.com). The road was long, steep and
> > wound up the mountain like a snake. Despite such a small engine, I never
> > felt much of a lack of power, third and fourth gear the whole way up,
> > except for some of the hairpins where speed alone made me go down to
> > 2nd.
> >
> > It just kept going up that hill, despite the steepness, despite the
> > altitude. It REALLY proved to me how much better a diesel car can be.
>
> They generally have a lot of torque at low rpms,

See, that's what really got me, it was GUTLESS below about 2500rpm. I
always thought diesels had great torque on the low end, but not this
one. Can't explain it, but from 2500-3500 she was great. Fortunately the
gearbox was designed with this in mind and she was very drivable,
despite the small power band. Being a non "common rail" diesel her
redline was 4000rpm, above 3500rpm she again became pretty gutless and I
barely was able to get her right to the redline.

Despite all this, I didn't miss any performance really, aside from
moving my normal mental shift point from 2500rpm (which is when I shift
on my car) to 3500, she was very drivable.

> that's why they are so
> nice for towing and in the mountains. (Maximum power is just one data point
> of the engine performance.) But they are not so good at accelerating --
> that's why you probably won't see a diesel in a Formula I car anytime soon

I don't know about formula 1 (not a fan), but diesels have done VERY
well in racing lately, Le Mans being an actual win for a diesel. The
annual Dakar rally has had diesels for a while now, and they are always
very competitive (no overall wins there though yet).

I envy the cars Europeans have access to. TTYL

2007\03\28@041645 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>It's funny, on my latest trip to Austria I rented a Skoda
>Fabia wagon. It's a smaller car, think subaru imprezza wagon size.
>It had a 3 cylinder, 1.4L Turbo diesel (a VW engine).

Sounds like it might be the same engine that was in a VW Polo rental I had
recently. When stopped at an intersection it was that quiet while idling I
could have sworn the engine had stopped. It did let you know it was there
when getting along at 60mph, but without being excessively noisy.

2007\03\28@041809 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>that's why you probably won't see a diesel in a Formula I car anytime soon

I wouldn't bet on it - with Audi diesel cars winning at Le Man and the
American Le Man series ...

2007\03\28@042648 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>> > It just kept going up that hill, despite the steepness, despite the
>> > altitude. It REALLY proved to me how much better a diesel car can be.
>>
>> They generally have a lot of torque at low rpms,
>
>See, that's what really got me, it was GUTLESS below about 2500rpm. I
>always thought diesels had great torque on the low end, but not this
>one. Can't explain it, but from 2500-3500 she was great.

I used to have a VW Polo Estate Diesel, 1.9L IIRC, which had nice low end
torque. The wife managed to damage it, and because of its age became not
economic to repair, so replaced it with a Ford Focus 1.9L diesel. The Focus
doesn't have the same low end torque that the VW had, I suspect it is
designed to be more of a performance engine. When pottering along at 30mph I
have to be 1 gear lower on the box than the VW for the engine to be happy.
It does have great top end speed though, had it up to 125mph recently in
Germany with the foot not quite pedal to the metal, so may have got another
5mph out of it.

I suspect this difference is part of designing the engines to be better
replacements for petrol ones, so that performance differences in terms of
acceleration and top speed are less noticeable to the "average" car buyer,
and hence the diesel becomes more attractive, instead of being treated with
scorn as a "tractor" or "London taxi".

2007\03\28@043714 by Chris Emerson

flavicon
face
On Tue, Mar 27, 2007 at 06:16:08PM -0400, Martin Klingensmith wrote:
> 30 is significantly above average in the US.

But a UK gallon is about 20% larger than a US gallon, so that'll make
the US numbers look worse without the correction.  30mpg in the UK is
about 25mpg in the US.

Chris

> On 3/27/07, William Chops Westfield <RemoveMEwestfwspamBeGonespamRemoveMEmac.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > It's interesting that people are mentioned "small old efficient cars"
> > that are reported to get about 30mpg.  I don't think I'd call that
> > "efficient" (closer to "average" ?)
> >
> > BillW
> > --

2007\03\28@044454 by Nate Duehr

face
flavicon
face
On 3/27/07, Bob Blick <KILLspambbblickspamBeGonespamsbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> --- Nate Duehr <@spam@nateSTOPspamspam@spam@natetech.com> wrote:
>
> > There's a great bumper sticker floating around here
> > locally...
> > "Your Hybrid isn't saving the planet, it's just
> > making you feel better."
>
> I take it the creators of South Park have the
> residents of Colorado pegged pretty accurately? The
> altitiude probably has something to do with the
> attitude - the air is naturally cleaner up there.

Not really... but they're good at pointing out a lot of American
society's taboos in general.

> Los Angeles has a lot nicer air now than in the '70's
> - Thanks to the EPA and CARB.

Los Angles is an overpopulated hell-hole, mostly.  Lived there for a
few months, can't believe people enjoy being that crowded in.

> If I'm stuck in traffic I'd rather be behind a hybrid
> than a diesel.

See above.  Over-crowding and over-ubanization leads to such concerns.
Getting "stuck in traffic" is a daily concern in Los Angeles and a
few other so-called "major" cities, and everyone caught idling on the
freeway twice a day is probably a major factor in L.A.'s pollution
problem.

Any city (not just L.A., but this is an L.A. example) that has an AM
broadcast station that gives traffic reports every 7 minutes and has
an entire division of the state-wide Transportation Authority
(CalTrans, if I remember correctly) devoted to the issuance of
"SIGALERTS" (significant traffic alerts) just so people can get home
within 2 hours of dinnertime... is grossly overpopulated.

("Major city" usually translates well to, "over-populated for no good reason".)

Plus, were you behind a 1st or 2nd generation diesel (Mercedes-Benz
80's car) I'd agree with you -- but not something modern.   And not a
truck or a bus, as mentioned previously their heavy-hitter lobbyists
get them special treatment.

A properly operating 3rd generation diesel passenger car engine will
rarely if ever put out any visible smoke, and out here... that's our
test... visible smoke, and/or high NOx emissions, and the engine/car
doesn't pass annual (maximum 3 years instead of annual on brand new
cars) inspection and repairs (and a fine if repairs aren't undertaken)
are required.

> Biannual smog tests are also pretty effective. Last
> time I was in Oregon it seemed every other car had
> somehow "lost" its catalytic converter.

We have those here, too.  We were once the 2nd or 3rd worst city for
"airborne contaminants", e.g. visual particulates, and we were way up
the list on other nasty stuff including Ozone.

Denver sits in a valley that naturally creates its own temperature
inversion when cold air sits on top of the "bowl".  The smog tests
have worked here too, at the detriment of safety (they replaced annual
vehicle safety inspections with smog inspections, and now we're a "no
fault" insurance state and you regularly see vehicles with broken
lights of all types, and brakes that squeal so loudly you can tell the
vehicle's brake pads wore all the way down months ago), and we didn't
have to ban diesel passenger cars.

> There's a lot more to hybrids than fuel economy. They
> make city air cleaner. And the fuel economy is real -
> it's not just tires and aerodynamics.

Remove the Prius' low-rolling-resistance tires (required for safe
driving in serious ice/snow conditions, prevalent pretty much
everywhere for at least some portion of the year north of what...
about 38 degrees N latitude?  HALF the U.S.) and it matches the fuel
economy of the small diesels.

Prius owners here get virtually the same mileage our diesel does, in
the winter... and they gain a small advantage in the summer -- IF,
they don't use their air conditioners.

The truth of the matter is:

Any worker who technically *could* work from home *should* be working
from home.  Politicians offering tax breaks for people spending big
bucks on Prius'es should be offering businesses tax incentives to keep
workers from driving (if they don't have to) in the first place,
especially in overcrowded cities like L.A.

So anyway, some background on why I hate L.A. is probably in order...

My intense dislike of L.A. really stems from the insanity of living
with stuff like this:
http://www.seismo-watch.com/EQSERVICES/NotableEQ/Jun/0628.Landers.html

I was there for that quake, and realized how stupid it was to live in
such a densely populated area so prone to such seismic activity...
lots of people are going to die there someday, and we the taxpayers
will be paying for that rebuild... same as New Orleans, except
Californians will be even more demanding that it be done right-away.

So it's not personal, Bob.  I just hate the place.

Add in that I'm a private pilot and found the SoCal airspace just as
congested (and ridiculously dangerous as the roads, even under the
watchful eyes of some of the country's best Air Traffic Controllers),
and I got far away and vowed never to return.

I loved the practice in scanning the airspace around the aircraft,
working quickly with ATC, and general fast pace, but realized the
whole makeup of the city was a recipe for major disasters, long-term.
It already is one, when it comes to pollution.  They shouldn't be
enacting tougher vehicle pollution laws, they should be trying to find
ways to keep you all from driving so much in the first place.

Nate


'[EE]: Making a USB connection friendly to a Host C'
2007\08\23@023910 by Cedric Chang
flavicon
face
Below is a 2 part question I submitted to Cypress Tech support.  
Their response ( not shown ) does not answer my questions.
It mostly repeats spec sheet information. CT does not address my  
concerns with the host end , they talk
about the client end ( which in my case would be an FPGA ).  I would  
rather the host end be easy to deal
with ( using built-in host support ) and spend more effort on the  
FPGA end.

 Anyone who has worked with USB 2.0 High Speed might have some  
insight to share with me.

00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000


20070815
Part Number:          CY7C68023
Product:          Universal Serial Bus - USB High-Speed Peripherals > EZ-USB  
NX2LP / NX2LP-Flex
Subject:          High speed USB Host to Cypress USB/FPGA combo
Description:          What would be the best way to transfer data between a  
Host ( Linux, Windows, and OS X ) with USB 2.0
and a combination of a cypress USB chip married to an FPGA ?

1) If I use a NAND flash chip such as the CY7C68023 then the  
combination USB/FPGA will look like a set of files.... is this  
correct ? This will make the Host side easy to manipulate since I can  
use file support from the operating system. The FPGA will have to  
preserve the correct file format when changing data.

2) Using a CY7C68013 would require more work on the Host end, would  
it not ? To the Host it would not look like any standard method of I/
O. Is that true or not ?

I would rather deal with adjusting the USB/FPGA combo and having  
something standard on the Host end. I can find development  
environments that deal with files on storage devices, serial ports  
and such much more easily than having a custom driver for each  
platform ( Linux, WIN, OS X )



20070822
What I am concerned about ( and perhaps I am missing something  
obvious here ) is what the USB connection looks like to the HOST PC.

4) Will the CY7C68023 look like a disk drive to the host ? This would  
make it easy for the host to deal with the USB connection.
5) What will the CY7C68013 look like to the host computer ? A disk  
drive or something else ?

I am more concerned with making the host end multi-platform and easy  
for host programming.
6) Would not Linux, Windows XP and Mac OS X think a CY7C68023 was a  
disk drive ?
7) What would these OSes think a CY7C68013 was ?

2007\08\23@032420 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 8/23/07, Cedric Chang <ccspamBeGonespamspamBeGonenope9.com> wrote:
> Below is a 2 part question I submitted to Cypress Tech support.
> Their response ( not shown ) does not answer my questions.
> It mostly repeats spec sheet information. CT does not address my
> concerns with the host end , they talk
> about the client end ( which in my case would be an FPGA ).  I would
> rather the host end be easy to deal
> with ( using built-in host support ) and spend more effort on the
> FPGA end.
>
>  Anyone who has worked with USB 2.0 High Speed might have some
> insight to share with me.
>

I am not a USB expert and have never used any USB High Speed device.
I have not used the Cypress parts either. But it seems your questions
do not require any of those specialized knowledge. I will try with my
basic understanding of USB.

{Quote hidden}

How do you connect FPGA to CY7C68023? I think it is a
specialized USB controller for NAND Flash.

> 2) Using a CY7C68013 would require more work on the Host end, would
> it not ? To the Host it would not look like any standard method of I/
> O. Is that true or not ?

CY7C68013 is not recommended for new design from the
Cypress website. Anyway, it is a general purpose device.
You will have to spend more efforts on the firmware side
to make it to appear as anything you like withink its
capability, eg: mass storage device so that you can use
the file system support on the OS side.

> I would rather deal with adjusting the USB/FPGA combo and having
> something standard on the Host end. I can find development
> environments that deal with files on storage devices, serial ports
> and such much more easily than having a custom driver for each
> platform ( Linux, WIN, OS X )

So you design the firmware to use standard USB class that these
OS have built-in driver.

>
> 20070822
> What I am concerned about ( and perhaps I am missing something
> obvious here ) is what the USB connection looks like to the HOST PC.
>
> 4) Will the CY7C68023 look like a disk drive to the host ? This would
> make it easy for the host to deal with the USB connection.

Yes but again how do the FPGA communicate with it? A host PC
can communicate with CY7C68023+Nand Flash and treat the
combination as a mass storage device. Unless you implement
FPGA to act as a USB host which might be very very difficult.

> 5) What will the CY7C68013 look like to the host computer ? A disk
> drive or something else ?

It all depends on the firmware. It can be a USB HID device, a
disk drive, a com port, ...

If the OS has the built-in driver, it is easier. If not, then you need to
write a customized driver.

> I am more concerned with making the host end multi-platform and easy
> for host programming.
> 6) Would not Linux, Windows XP and Mac OS X think a CY7C68023 was a
> disk drive ?

As long as you adhere to the USB mass storage standard, it should.

> 7) What would these OSes think a CY7C68013 was ?
Same answer as 5).

I think the following website will help.
http://www.usb.org
http://www.usbmadesimple.co.uk/
www.beyondlogic.org/usbnutshell/usb1.htm
http://www.lvr.com

Regards,
Xiaofan

2007\08\23@032808 by William \Chops\ Westfield

face picon face

On Aug 22, 2007, at 11:39 PM, Cedric Chang wrote:

> What I am concerned about ( and perhaps I am missing something
> obvious here ) is what the USB connection looks like to the HOST PC.
>
> 4) Will the CY7C68023 look like a disk drive to the host ? This would
> make it easy for the host to deal with the USB connection.
> 5) What will the CY7C68013 look like to the host computer ? A disk
> drive or something else ?

I'm no USB expert, nor a Cypress expert.  But it looks to me as though
you should think of 23 as if it were a 13 with preloaded firmware that
makes it look like a disk and control NAND flash.  The 13 on its own is
fully general purpose and would look like whatever you MAKE it look  
like.
(during the initial USB connection phase, the device tells the host "I'm
an X from company Y with serial number Z and I implement A, B, C."  The
23 chip has firmware that does all that and implements a flash disk.  
The
13 has NOTHING; you have to provide it all.)

BillW

'Making a USB connection friendly to a Host Compute'
2007\08\23@093334 by Matthew Mucker

flavicon
face
Cedric,

It is the USB device's responsibility to tell the host computer what
functionality it has.

According to the product's web page, this part should appear as a removable
hard drive to the host computer:

Complies with USB Mass Storage Class Specification  rev 1.0

I haven't read it, but you might pick up Jax Axelson's book on USB Mass
Storage devices to get more information.

{Original Message removed}

2007\08\31@155904 by alan smith

picon face
have you called the application support group?  Sometimes a call solves the issue.
 
 425-787-4814
 
 I'm sure they have some USB guys that can answer or at least clarify what your trying to do.
 Running USB 2.0 makes your block transfers look normal to window drivers (XP and Vista) so its a matter of setup on the endpoint (slave device)
 
 

     
---------------------------------
Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more.


'[OT] Singapore most business-friendly'
2007\09\26@072113 by Jinx
face picon face
www.doingbusiness.org/economyrankings/

The World Bank's annual "Doing Business" report .....for the
second year in a row, Singapore was ranked the world's
easiest place to do business, followed by New Zealand and
the United States.....Hong Kong fourth, followed by Denmark,
the United Kingdom, Canada, Ireland, Australia and Iceland

2007\09\26@074413 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 9/26/07, Jinx <spamBeGonejoecolquittspamclear.net.nz> wrote:
> http://www.doingbusiness.org/economyrankings/
>
> The World Bank's annual "Doing Business" report .....for the
> second year in a row, Singapore was ranked the world's
> easiest place to do business, followed by New Zealand and
> the United States.....Hong Kong fourth, followed by Denmark,
> the United Kingdom, Canada, Ireland, Australia and Iceland
>

Singapore is again No 1. Hopefully more business will come
here, especially those high value-added industry.
I do not know that New Zealand is also a good place.
So far I only know it is very beautiful place and famous for
the Kiwifruit. ;-)

Xiaofan

2007\09\26@124414 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Xiaofan,

On Wed, 26 Sep 2007 19:43:56 +0800, Xiaofan Chen wrote:

> I do not know that New Zealand is also a good place.
> So far I only know it is very beautiful place and famous for
> the Kiwifruit. ;-)

It's certainly beautiful (and largely empty of people) - I went there twice around the turn of the millenium, and I'd recommend it to anyone who doesn't like cities!  
:-)

As for Kiwifruit - do you realise that they used to be called "Chinese Gooseberries"?  I believe the name change was for marketing purposes - I don't think their
country-of-origin changed!  I understand that most of them come from places like Turkey anyway, so the name has never been accurate...

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England


2007\09\27@091036 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Xiaofan Chen wrote:

> On 9/26/07, Jinx <spam_OUTjoecolquittSTOPspamspamclear.net.nz> wrote:
>> http://www.doingbusiness.org/economyrankings/
>>
>> The World Bank's annual "Doing Business" report .....for the second
>> year in a row, Singapore was ranked the world's easiest place to do
>> business, followed by New Zealand and the United States.....Hong Kong
>> fourth, followed by Denmark, the United Kingdom, Canada, Ireland,
>> Australia and Iceland
>
> Singapore is again No 1. Hopefully more business will come here,
> especially those high value-added industry.

Is there enough space to grow?

I found surprising that Hong Kong and China are ranked 3rd in ease of
paying taxes. I didn't find surprising that this is the weakest spot of the
USA :)  (among the parameters listed on that page).

Gerhard

2007\09\27@093139 by Spehro Pefhany

flavicon
face
Quoting Gerhard Fiedler <RemoveMElistsspamspamconnectionbrazil.com>:

{Quote hidden}

It would be VERY, VERY  surprising if it was true, but in fact it's
"Hong Kong, China" that is easy.

"Taiwan, China" is ranked 91 and "China" is ranked 168, compared
to 76 for the US and 25 for Canada.

Best regards,





2007\09\27@095619 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 9/27/07, Gerhard Fiedler <KILLspamlistsspamspamspam_OUTconnectionbrazil.com> wrote:
> Xiaofan Chen wrote:
> > Singapore is again No 1. Hopefully more business will come here,
> > especially those high value-added industry.
>
> Is there enough space to grow?
>

Yes. There are plenty of empty spaces. ;-)
Seriously, Singapore government wants to increase the population
to about 5.5million in 10 years and perhaps 6.5million in the future.


Xiaofan

2007\09\27@100753 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On 9/27/07, Spehro Pefhany <spehro.pefhanyRemoveMEspamgedex.ca> wrote:
> Quoting Gerhard Fiedler <EraseMElistsSTOPspamspamRemoveMEconnectionbrazil.com>:
> > I found surprising that Hong Kong and China are ranked 3rd in ease of
> > paying taxes. I didn't find surprising that this is the weakest spot of the
> > USA :)  (among the parameters listed on that page).
> >
> > Gerhard
>
> It would be VERY, VERY  surprising if it was true, but in fact it's
> "Hong Kong, China" that is easy.
>
> "Taiwan, China" is ranked 91 and "China" is ranked 168, compared
> to 76 for the US and 25 for Canada.

I am suprised to see China ranked 168 and US ranked 76. As far as I
know it is much easier to pay tax in China than in US, especially personal
income tax.

It takes me 10 minutes to pay tax in Singapore online. Last year I stayed
in US for three and half month under J1 and it took me more than 8-hours
and several IDD phone calls to PWC (PricewaterhouseCoopers)
consultants to get it done. And I think the PWC consultant should
also spend several hours to do that and my case has been extended
to October 2007. So I think the company has to pay quite some
consultation fee...

In China, personal income tax is usually deducted from salary
and you do not need to do much -- no need to file a return. My
parents and my youngest brothers are tax payers in China and
I never hear they complain the process of paying tax (they do
complain the tax rate).

Regards,
Xiaofan

2007\09\27@170749 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
Spehro Pefhany wrote:

> It would be VERY, VERY  surprising if it was true, but in fact it's "Hong
> Kong, China" that is easy.

Ah, I missed the other two entries and read that as "Honk Kong & China" :)

> "Taiwan, China" is ranked 91 and "China" is ranked 168, compared to 76
> for the US and 25 for Canada.

Anyway, I found it surprisingly complex to pay taxes in the USA, compared
to the general tendency there of getting things done in a practical,
efficient way. It rarely took me more than an hour to file the tax for a
self-employed type consulting business in Germany and that without any help
from a program (besides of course the raw numbers from an accounting
program), but in the USA trying to do so without either a program or an
accountant (who will use a program) is not a good idea :)  And it still
takes quite some time.

Gerhard


'[EE]: 3.3V-friendly TPIC6C595'
2008\01\25@203809 by Rob Robson
flavicon
face
I'm looking for an equivalent to the venerable TPIC6C595 shift
register/driver that could be driven by a micro running from 3.3V without
having to add a level converter.  Has anyone used or found such an animal?

TIA,
RR


2008\01\25@231409 by Harold Hallikainen

face
flavicon
face


> I'm looking for an equivalent to the venerable TPIC6C595 shift
> register/driver that could be driven by a micro running from 3.3V without
> having to add a level converter.  Has anyone used or found such an animal?
>
> TIA,
> RR
>

I think http://allegromicro.com has some devices that operate at 3.3V, but
they have, as I recall, Darlington outputs that don't pull down very far.
So I used the part you mention (which I believe has FET outputs) and a
quad nand  lvt as a level translator.

Harold


--
FCC Rules Updated Daily at http://www.hallikainen.com - Advertising
opportunities available!

2008\01\26@073217 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
Rob Robson wrote:
> I'm looking for an equivalent to the venerable TPIC6C595 shift
> register/driver that could be driven by a micro running from 3.3V without
> having to add a level converter.  Has anyone used or found such an animal?
>
> TIA,
> RR
>
>
>  
why not use the TLV595? It works at 3.3V admirably. Texas Instruments
makes them. I would avoid
Fairchild's version, too sensitive to noise for my blessing.

The device also buffers the signal well enough to drive external loads
easily...


--Bob A

2008\01\26@132354 by Rob Robson

flavicon
face
Thanks, Bob.  If it can drive small relays, it sounds exactly like what I'm
looking for. Unfortunately, I come up empty-handed when I search on that
(partial?) part number on the TI site or Digi-Key's.  I can't find it by
doing a parametric search on TI's site either.  Are you sure about the part
number?

Best regards,
RR


{Original Message removed}

2008\01\26@150827 by dpharris

picon face
Try TPIC6B595N and kin

David

Quoting Rob Robson <spam_OUTrobRemoveMEspamEraseMEsilk.net>:

> Thanks, Bob.  If it can drive small relays, it sounds exactly like what I'm
> looking for. Unfortunately, I come up empty-handed when I search on that
> (partial?) part number on the TI site or Digi-Key's.  I can't find it by
> doing a parametric search on TI's site either.  Are you sure about the part
> number?
>
> Best regards,
> RR
>
>
> {Original Message removed}

2008\01\26@154302 by Rob Robson

flavicon
face
The TPIC6B595 doesn't appear to have 3.3V tolerant inputs, which is what is
needed for this application.  VIh(min) for any of the TPIC6x595 family is
0.85 x Vcc (5V in this circuit), and the PIC is running at 3.3V.

RR

{Original Message removed}

2008\01\26@181612 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 08:38 PM 1/25/2008, you wrote:
>I'm looking for an equivalent to the venerable TPIC6C595 shift
>register/driver that could be driven by a micro running from 3.3V without
>having to add a level converter.  Has anyone used or found such an animal?

If output drop is okay, I'd use a HC595 + ULN2803 .. cheaper and multiple
sourced... and more forgiving of layout.

>Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
TakeThisOuTspeffRemoveMEspam@spam@interlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com



2008\01\26@183939 by Matt Pobursky

flavicon
face
Rob,

I think he probably means the SN74LV595A, which works down to Vcc=2V.

I suspect that you really want something that will interface directly with
low voltage (3.3V or less) and has a higher voltage output (5V).

I've been doing 3.3V and lower designs almost exclusively the past 5 years
or so and haven't run across such a beast yet. If you want to "do it right"
and not stretch any of the IC specs you'll have to go the level translator
route.

If your design is a one-off or hobbyist use then this is a pain. If it's a
production design then it can be done fairly cost effectively and take very
little PCB space.

Here are a couple methods which I have commonly used. Note the 1st circuit
is driving a TPIC6C595D (which is driving White LEDs in this case). ;-) The
second circuit is interfacing to a 5V only PLC communications bus
transceiver which has strict .85(Vcc) logic high levels.

http://www.mps-design.com/misc-images/leveltrans1.gif

http://www.mps-design.com/misc-images/leveltrans2.gif

The first circuit is quite economical as it's only two packages and the
74LVC07 can be had in a VSOP package if PCB real estate is important. Total
cost for production is probably about $.20 total. The circuit is speed
limited though since it uses open drain type drivers and is not the most
power friendly since it's switching a fairly stiff current through the
pullup resistors. In this application it didn't matter as the pullup
resistor current was << than the LED current.

The second circuit is a bit more costly (probably about $.35 total) but
still quite compact. Since all the drivers are active the speed performance
is excellent and static power dissipation is very low. The SN74LVC2T45DCTR
is bidirectional so that may be useful to you. TI also makes this part in
single gate and I believe quad gate parts as well. The quad gate part could
do all your required level shifting in one package, most likely. The
SN74LVC2G34DBV is a low voltage part with 5.5V tolerant inputs, comes in a
SOT23-6 package and is quite inexpensive. I'm quite sure they make a single
gate package as well.

Matt Pobursky
Maximum Performance Systems


On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 10:23:41 -0800, Rob Robson wrote:
> Thanks, Bob.  If it can drive small relays, it sounds exactly like what
> I'm looking for. Unfortunately, I come up empty-handed when I search on
> that (partial?) part number on the TI site or Digi-Key's.  I can't find
> it by doing a parametric search on TI's site either.  Are you sure about
> the part number?
>
> Best regards,
> RR
>
>
> {Original Message removed}

2008\01\28@050417 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>If output drop is okay, I'd use a HC595 + ULN2803 .. cheaper
>and multiple sourced... and more forgiving of layout.

especially as he is taking of driving relays. I don't think I would like to
drive relays directly from the outputs of any of the 595 family.

2008\01\28@094036 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
Rob Robson wrote:
> Thanks, Bob.  If it can drive small relays, it sounds exactly like what I'm
> looking for. Unfortunately, I come up empty-handed when I search on that
> (partial?) part number on the TI site or Digi-Key's.  I can't find it by
> doing a parametric search on TI's site either.  Are you sure about the part
> number?
>
> Best regards,
> RR
>
>
> {Original Message removed}

2008\01\28@095817 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
Quoting Bob Axtell <EraseMEengineerRemoveMEspamcotse.net>:


>>>
> Hmmm. Its actually SN74LV595A. At 3.3V is guarantees 8mA sink or source.
> Look at TI's
> website and ask for scbd152b.pdf.
>
> Sorry about that.
>
> --BOB

TPIC6C595 will handle 250mA at 30V (100mA if all outputs are on
simultaneously).. it's essentially an HC595 with 8 avalanche-rated
DMOS open-drain transistors (one on each output).

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..."                          "The Journey is the reward"
spams........spamspaminterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com

2008\01\28@101344 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
Spehro Pefhany wrote:
> Quoting Bob Axtell <engineerspam_OUTspam@spam@cotse.net>:
>
>
>  
>> Hmmm. Its actually SN74LV595A. At 3.3V is guarantees 8mA sink or source.
>> Look at TI's
>> website and ask for scbd152b.pdf.
>>
>> Sorry about that.
>>
>> --BOB
>>    
>
> TPIC6C595 will handle 250mA at 30V (100mA if all outputs are on
> simultaneously).. it's essentially an HC595 with 8 avalanche-rated
> DMOS open-drain transistors (one on each output).
>
> Best regards,
> Spehro Pefhany
>  
WOW! that's the guy...who makes that, I wonder...

--Bob

2008\01\28@112528 by William \Chops\ Westfield

face picon face

On Jan 28, 2008, at 6:57 AM, Spehro Pefhany wrote:

> TPIC6C595 will handle 250mA at 30V (100mA if all outputs are on
> simultaneously).. it's essentially an HC595 with 8 avalanche-rated
> DMOS open-drain transistors (one on each output).

I don't see anything in the spec sheet that makes the TPIC6C595
look at all "3.3V friendly": Vccmin = 4.5V, Vih = 0.85*Vcc = 3.8V...

BillW

2008\01\28@115849 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
Quoting "William \"Chops\" Westfield" <.....westfwspamspam.....mac.com>:

>
> On Jan 28, 2008, at 6:57 AM, Spehro Pefhany wrote:
>
>> TPIC6C595 will handle 250mA at 30V (100mA if all outputs are on
>> simultaneously).. it's essentially an HC595 with 8 avalanche-rated
>> DMOS open-drain transistors (one on each output).
>
> I don't see anything in the spec sheet that makes the TPIC6C595
> look at all "3.3V friendly": Vccmin = 4.5V, Vih = 0.85*Vcc = 3.8V...
>
> BillW

Nope, not at all. It might be interesting to see what the operational
limits actually are. Maybe the logic part functions with 2V power, but
the DMOS transistors are not very "on" at 2V.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..."                          "The Journey is the reward"
s...KILLspamspamEraseMEinterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com

'[EE] from your friends at EDN...'
2008\01\28@155528 by Dr Skip

picon face
PIClist users beware...

The paper:
http://www.nuff.ox.ac.uk/users/gambetta/Engineers%20of%20Jihad.pdf

The EDN article:
http://www.edn.com/blog/1750000175/post/1030020903.html

Quote from the article in EDN:

Monday, January 28, 2008
EEs have terrorist mindset, Oxford University paper suggests

A sociology paper from the University of Oxford has suggested there is a tie
between the mindset of EEs and that of extreme Islamic terrorists.

The paper, titled “Engineers of Jihad,” was first published by the highly
accredited university in November and saw some major news outlets begin to pick
it up in January.

“We find that graduates from subjects such as science, engineering, and
medicine are strongly overrepresented among Islamist movements in the Muslim
world, though not among the extremist Islamic groups which have emerged in
Western countries more recently,” the paper’s abstract reads. “We also find
that engineers alone are strongly over-represented among graduates in violent
groups in both realms. This is all the more puzzling for engineers are
virtually absent from left-wing violent extremists and only present rather than
over-represented among right-wing extremists.”

It’s not technical skills, however, that draws engineers into terrorist groups,
according to the university research. Rather, the authors of the paper, Diego
Gambetta and Steffen Hertog, hypothesize that engineers have a “mindset” that
makes them a particularly good match for Islamism – one that makes engineers
“more radicalized” than people with other degrees.

....

The paper argues that engineers have “peculiar cognitive traits and
dispositions” and that engineers are among some of the most right-leaning
conservative thinking groups out there and are inclined to take more extreme
religious positions.

“We could thus hypothesize that personal dispositions and style of thinking
among engineers differ from those of students in other subjects in ways that
could make them more prone to become involved in violent forms of
radicalization, not just as willing recruits but as prime movers,” the paper
states, adding that its findings are not proof of its mindset theory.

...

Of the engineers the paper studies, electrical were the most common, followed
by computer-related.

2008\01\28@160608 by Rob Robson

flavicon
face
There goes our cover.

RR

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dr Skip" <EraseMEdrskip@spam@spam@spam@gmail.com>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <@spam@piclistspamspamKILLspammit.edu>
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 12:55 PM
Subject: [EE] from your friends at EDN...


PIClist users beware...

The paper:
http://www.nuff.ox.ac.uk/users/gambetta/Engineers%20of%20Jihad.pdf

The EDN article:
http://www.edn.com/blog/1750000175/post/1030020903.html

Quote from the article in EDN:

Monday, January 28, 2008
EEs have terrorist mindset, Oxford University paper suggests

A sociology paper from the University of Oxford has suggested there is a tie
between the mindset of EEs and that of extreme Islamic terrorists.

The paper, titled “Engineers of Jihad,” was first published by the highly
accredited university in November and saw some major news outlets begin to
pick
it up in January.

“We find that graduates from subjects such as science, engineering, and
medicine are strongly overrepresented among Islamist movements in the Muslim
world, though not among the extremist Islamic groups which have emerged in
Western countries more recently,” the paper’s abstract reads. “We also find
that engineers alone are strongly over-represented among graduates in
violent
groups in both realms. This is all the more puzzling for engineers are
virtually absent from left-wing violent extremists and only present rather
than
over-represented among right-wing extremists.”

It’s not technical skills, however, that draws engineers into terrorist
groups,
according to the university research. Rather, the authors of the paper,
Diego
Gambetta and Steffen Hertog, hypothesize that engineers have a “mindset”
that
makes them a particularly good match for Islamism – one that makes engineers
“more radicalized” than people with other degrees.

....

The paper argues that engineers have “peculiar cognitive traits and
dispositions” and that engineers are among some of the most right-leaning
conservative thinking groups out there and are inclined to take more extreme
religious positions.

“We could thus hypothesize that personal dispositions and style of thinking
among engineers differ from those of students in other subjects in ways that
could make them more prone to become involved in violent forms of
radicalization, not just as willing recruits but as prime movers,” the paper
states, adding that its findings are not proof of its mindset theory.

...

Of the engineers the paper studies, electrical were the most common,
followed
by computer-related.

2008\01\28@161118 by John Gardner

picon face
:)

Jack



On 1/28/08, Dr Skip <spamBeGonedrskipRemoveMEspamEraseMEgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2008\01\28@163756 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
The paper argues that engineers have “peculiar cognitive
traits and
dispositions” and that engineers are among some of the most
right-leaning
conservative thinking groups out there and are inclined to
take more extreme
religious positions.

“We could thus hypothesize that personal dispositions and
style of thinking
among engineers differ from those of students in other
subjects in ways that
could make them more prone to become involved in violent
forms of
radicalization, not just as willing recruits but as prime
movers,” the paper
states, adding that its findings are not proof of its
mindset theory.

__________

I've heard it seriously suggested that Engineers fit
properly in the sequence

   "normal"* - Engineers - Asperger's Syndrome - Mild
Autism - Severe Autism.

Works for me :-)

See if you can recognise yourself to some degree in parts of
the description below :-).



       Russell

* Poor saps.

__________

http://www.aspergers.com/aspclin.htm

Asperger's Disorder is a milder variant of Autistic
Disorder.   Both Asperger's Disorder and Autistic Disorder
are in fact subgroups of a larger diagnostic category.  This
larger category is called either Autistic Spectrum
Disorders, mostly in European countries, or Pervasive
Developmental Disorders ("PDD"), in the United States.  In
Asperger's Disorder, affected individuals are characterized
by social isolation and eccentric behavior in childhood.
There are impairments in two-sided social interaction and
non-verbal communication. Though grammatical, their speech
may sound peculiar due to abnormalities of inflection and a
repetitive pattern. Clumsiness may be prominent both in
their articulation and gross motor behavior. They usually
have a circumscribed area of interest which usually leaves
no space for more age appropriate, common interests. Some
examples are cars, trains, French Literature, door knobs,
hinges, cappucino, meteorology, astronomy or history.  The
name "Asperger" comes from Hans Asperger, an Austrian
physician who first described the syndrome in 1944.  An
excellent translation of Dr. Asperger's original paper is
provided by Dr. Uta Frith in her Autism and Asperger
Syndrome.

2008\01\28@164358 by Chris Smolinski

flavicon
face
>The paper argues that engineers have ³peculiar cognitive
>traits and
>dispositions² and that engineers are among some of the most
>right-leaning
>conservative thinking groups out there and are inclined to
>take more extreme
>religious positions.
>

It is also possible that engineers end up being
more capable of building explosive devices than
goat herders and other members of the
islamofacist group. Just a thought that the
researchers probably missed ;-)

I also suspect it has something to do with the
fact that the engineers (unlike the goat herders)
went to a university, where they were exposed to
the radical student groups. Mahmoud  Ahmadinejad
comes to mind.

--

---
Chris Smolinski
Black Cat Systems
http://www.blackcatsystems.com

2008\01\28@171206 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
Apptech wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Yep, sounds like me alright.

--Bob

2008\01\28@172019 by Dr Skip

picon face
The problem is, 'normal' lacks definition, and unfortunately, it would probably
be described with the following traits (and thereby making them good citizens
too, etc). ;)

- Shows no interest in any complex activity, unless assigned by a superior, and
prefers ones such as 'downloading ringtones' to a cellphone or of similar
complexity.

- Is capable of pushing a switch, but shows no interest in what happens at a
more detailed level.

- Does not question orders, nor initiates any action which he/she hasn't seen
done by a peer in advance.

OOOPS! No I'm going to have to go to therapy again.... ;)


Apptech wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2008\01\28@193623 by Bob Barr

flavicon
face
On Mon, 28 Jan 2008 15:55:14 -0500, Dr Skip wrote:

>PIClist users beware...
>
>The paper:
>http://www.nuff.ox.ac.uk/users/gambetta/Engineers%20of%20Jihad.pdf
>
>The EDN article:
>http://www.edn.com/blog/1750000175/post/1030020903.html
>
>Quote from the article in EDN:
>
>Monday, January 28, 2008
>EEs have terrorist mindset, Oxford University paper suggests
>
>A sociology paper from the University of Oxford has suggested there is a tie
>between the mindset of EEs and that of extreme Islamic terrorists.
>

Notice that the study was done by sociologists, i.e. people who
couldn't get into engineering school. :=)


Regards, Bob

2008\01\28@210839 by William \Chops\ Westfield

face picon face

On Jan 28, 2008, at 4:36 PM, Bob Barr wrote:

> Notice that the study was done by sociologists, i.e. people who
> couldn't get into engineering school. :=)

Hmm.  Those were the same guys who compared CEOs to sociopaths,
right?  It's starting to sound like sour grapes: "everyone but
us is a sicko!"

BillW

2008\01\28@221012 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
I think that this may have a tiny bit of merit.

Engineers tend to like black and white thinking. Often this is a BIG
advantage (it can help to sort out truth from fiction in many
situations). They also tend to have a good deal of opinionated,
obstinate self-confidence. Again, an asset in a situation where one
needs to be a technical leader.

However, if an engineering-type personality grasps onto a religious
idea, he can easily try to pursue it to its "logical consequences",
which may be good or may be a disaster depending on what the idea is
and how well he actually understands it and its consequences prior to
his trying to apply it absolutely. He also may lack the "human"
ability to judge the best thing in a particular situation (rather than
just strictly apply rules or principles) - which used to be called the
virtue of prudence.

I speak from unfortunate self experience ;-)

Sean


On Jan 28, 2008 3:55 PM, Dr Skip <RemoveMEdrskipKILLspamspamRemoveMEgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2008\01\29@041043 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>PIClist users beware...
>
>The paper:
> http://www.nuff.ox.ac.uk/users/gambetta/Engineers%20of%20Jihad.pdf
>
>The EDN article:
> http://www.edn.com/blog/1750000175/post/1030020903.html

Sounds to me more like paranoia over the protestors who are attempting to
stop Oxford University building a laboratory where animals will be used for
experimental medicine. See
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/oxfordshire/4707251.stm for typical news
item on it.

I think I tend to agree with the EDN Readers Comments.

2008\01\29@043344 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>It is also possible that engineers end up being
>more capable of building explosive devices than
>goat herders and other members of the
>islamofacist group. Just a thought that the
>researchers probably missed ;-)

I wouldn't bet on that either. NZ farmers were pretty good in days of yore,
at making explosive out of fertiliser and sugar, for the purpose of removing
old tree stumps and other large objects that littered their farms.


'[EE] from your friends at EDN...'
2008\02\01@161205 by alan smith
picon face
Good thing I don't goto any sort of religious events....too busy working.  Oh wait...I only worked half day on xmas this year.....

     
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.

'[EE]:: Friendly plastic aka Polycaproactone ak'
2008\02\26@180733 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
A most useful material. If you got this from me by BCC then
you want to look at the usage guide if you don't know about
it already.

______________________


A low melting temperature plastic worth knowing about for
engineering playing.
Can be softened with hot water then moulded to harden back
into a reasonably robust plastic.
May not be dishwasher safe ;-).

Sold in pellet form by various suppliers. (Jaycar in NZ).

Can be used to take some very evil shortcuts. Will tempt you
to new heights of lashuppery.
The usage guide is an eye opener.
Wiki page interesting but less useful.


           Russell


_____________________________

Ken says:

As a dedicated bodger of all things I thought you might be
interested in
polymorph pellets (aka polycaprolactone and in the US known
as Friendly
Plastic).  Jaycar/Soanar/Electus stock them in 100g bags
(product code
NP-4260) and describe them thus:

"Polymorph will change the way you make parts. It's a
commercial grade
thermoplastic that softens enough to be formed into any
shape at around 62 -
65° C. You simply heat the pellets in hot water or with a
hair dryer. It
hardens at room temperature to form a tough plastic material
similar in
consistency and colour to Nylon. It can be drilled, sanded,
ground, machined
or heated and reformed again and again. Endless uses in
model making, craft,
single part manufacture, prototyping, engineering, science,
lab, clinical
applications and more."

The Wikipedia knows:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polycaprolactone

A usage guide is available here:

http://www.mutr.co.uk/catalog/images/LIT0048.pdf

Regards,

Ken Mardle

'[EE]:: Friendly plastic aka Polycaproactone aka Po'
2008\02\27@012435 by Josh Koffman

face picon face
On Tue, Feb 26, 2008 at 5:01 PM, Apptech <TakeThisOuTapptechspamparadise.net.nz> wrote:
> A most useful material. If you got this from me by BCC then
>  you want to look at the usage guide if you don't know about
>  it already.
>
>  ______________________
>
>
>  A low melting temperature plastic worth knowing about for
>  engineering playing.
>  Can be softened with hot water then moulded to harden back
>  into a reasonably robust plastic.
>  May not be dishwasher safe ;-).
>
>  Sold in pellet form by various suppliers. (Jaycar in NZ).
>
>  Can be used to take some very evil shortcuts. Will tempt you
>  to new heights of lashuppery.
>  The usage guide is an eye opener.
>  Wiki page interesting but less useful.

Another source...with a twist:
http://www.leevalley.com/garden/page.aspx?c=1&p=50390&cat=2,50560

I've seen it at the Dayton Hamvention too. I would guess a craft
supply store would have it or something similar. I like Lee Valley's
sheets though.

Josh
--
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools.
       -Douglas Adams

2008\02\27@015926 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
> Another source...with a twist:
> http://www.leevalley.com/garden/page.aspx?c=1&p=50390&cat=2,50560

Hmm - that looks more than 100 ml.
Just goes to show how useful it is for improvising things.
I wonder how they stop the sides sticking together when
flat. I guess you need the water hot but not too too hot.
I wonder how many ksi the plastic is when set.

___________


"Tea or Coffee, Sir?"
'I'll just have a very large cup of boiling water, please
Miss. In fact, make that several.'
...
"Did you see that - I gave him 3 cups of really hot water,
like he asked for, and he jumped up, yelled something about
'all ack kbar' and rushed off into the toilet with them"
"Did he have a K-Bar".
"No. Of course not! No knives allowed. And besides, he'd
never have got anything that big through boarding
inspection".
"Maybe he was feeling airsick, or something?"
...


       Russell





'[EE]:: Friendly plastic aka Polycaproactone ak'
2008\02\27@031445 by Picbits Sales

flavicon
face
I've got a big tub of this stuff and its great (when you remember that
you've got it).

I've made CCTV brackets, motor mounts, strange shapes and all kinds of other
interesting things with it. Its also very handy for filling in small gaps in
an emergency.

As far as toughness goes its extremely tough when hardened/cooled.

Best thing about it is when you cockup what you're making you just reheat it
and try again.

Dom
----- Original Message -----
From: "Apptech" <spamBeGoneapptechKILLspamspamTakeThisOuTparadise.net.nz>
To: "PIC List" <EraseMEPICLIST.....spamKILLspamMIT.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 10:01 PM
Subject: [EE]:: Friendly plastic aka Polycaproactone aka Polymorph


A most useful material. If you got this from me by BCC then
you want to look at the usage guide if you don't know about
it already.

______________________


2008\02\27@033849 by William \Chops\ Westfield

face picon face

On Feb 27, 2008, at 12:14 AM, Picbits Sales wrote:

> as far as toughness goes its extremely tough when hardened/cooled.

I've been told that it gets brittle with age, though.  Some costumer  
made a set of hooves, and they didn't last...

BillW

'[EE]:: Friendly plastic aka Polycaproactone aka Po'
2008\02\27@042435 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>>  Can be used to take some very evil shortcuts. Will tempt you
>>  to new heights of lashuppery.
>>  The usage guide is an eye opener.
>>  Wiki page interesting but less useful.
>
>Another source...with a twist:
> http://www.leevalley.com/garden/page.aspx?c=1&p=50390&cat=2,50560

Sounds almost like the plastic used in soft drink or milk bottles. Most of
those will go reasonably soft if filled with hot water.

2008\02\27@051445 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
>>Another source...with a twist:
>> http://www.leevalley.com/garden/page.aspx?c=1&p=50390&cat=2,50560
>
> Sounds almost like the plastic used in soft drink or milk
> bottles. Most of
> those will go reasonably soft if filled with hot water.

Quite different, alas.
While such plastics do go soft they are far less able to be
handled well at these temperatures. They MAY be able to be
processed in a similar way at closer to 200 C.

PET (Polyethyleneterephthalate) (used in softdrink bottles)
is a very nice engineering plastic.
Also hides under the name (surprise!) Dacron.
Also POSSIBLY Arnite, Hostaphan, Impet, Melinar, Melinex,
Rynite, Terylene, Trevira according to

       http://www.goodfellow.com/csp/active/STATIC/E/Polyethylene_terephthalate.HTML


BUT as they also say it is called Mylar, which it isn't, and
fail to distinguish it from Polyester (which it is related
to), the page is suspect.

Wikipedia has copied their error

       http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyethylene_terephthalate

Dupont, needless to say, don't make the same mistake

       Russell





'[EE]:: Friendly plastic aka Polycaproactone ak'
2008\02\27@051730 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
> I've got a big tub of this stuff and its great (when you
> remember that
> you've got it).

> I've made CCTV brackets, motor mounts, strange shapes and
> all kinds of other
> interesting things with it. Its also very handy for
> filling in small gaps in
> an emergency.


How big is a "big tub" and what brand name is it. It may be
available here at a better price than the 100 gram packs I
am aware of so far.


       Russell


2008\02\27@054326 by Picbits Sales

flavicon
face
I bought a 500g tub from Maplin in the UK for around £10 ($20usd) when they
had it on special offer.

http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=35511&criteria=polymorph&doy=27m2

Dom
{Original Message removed}

2008\02\27@072820 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
>> as far as toughness goes its extremely tough when
>> hardened/cooled.

> I've been told that it gets brittle with age, though.
> Some costumer
> made a set of hooves, and they didn't last...

Mayhaps a "tempering" occasionally may help - raise the
temperature somewhat to near but below where moulded details
are lost.


       Russell

2008\02\27@080309 by Spehro Pefhany

picon face
At 07:15 AM 2/27/2008, you wrote:
> >> as far as toughness goes its extremely tough when
> >> hardened/cooled.
>
> > I've been told that it gets brittle with age, though.
> > Some costumer
> > made a set of hooves, and they didn't last...
>
>Mayhaps a "tempering" occasionally may help - raise the
>temperature somewhat to near but below where moulded details
>are lost.
>
>         Russell

That would hurt if it was volatiles that were being lost.

>Best regards,

Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..."            "The Journey is the reward"
spamspeffspaminterlog.com             Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com



2008\02\27@090412 by sergio masci

flavicon
face


On Wed, 27 Feb 2008, Apptech wrote:

{Quote hidden}

Have a look on ebay. Someone there seems to be selling the same product
line that is available on mutr. Prices seem reasonable.

Regards
Sergio

'[EE]::Brittle-- was Friendly plastic aka Polycapro'
2008\02\27@091332 by Cedric Chang

flavicon
face
What are the drawbacks of Polycaprolactone ?
If I use it for a bracket will the monitor fall on my head ?
cc

2008\02\27@101211 by Picbits Sales

flavicon
face
A 1cm thick piece of Polymorph is more than strong enough to hold any
monitor I've owned.

The downside is that when it heats up again it will soften so if your
monitor is in a really hot room .........

Dom
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cedric Chang" <ccSTOPspamspamnope9.com>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <piclistSTOPspamspamKILLspammit.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 2:13 PM
Subject: [EE]::Brittle-- was Friendly plastic aka Polycaproactone aka
Polymorph


> What are the drawbacks of Polycaprolactone ?
> If I use it for a bracket will the monitor fall on my head ?
> cc
>
> --

'[EE]:: Friendly plastic aka Polycaproactone ak'
2008\02\27@122625 by William \Chops\ Westfield

face picon face

>> better price

This stuff is a "material of choice" for the homebrew 3D-printer  
community.  See for instance the reprap info here: http://reprap.org/
bin/view/Main/Polymorph

And the (*the* !) current manufacturer seems to be here:
http://www.perstorpcaprolactones.com/products/product_line/0,0,-
_EN-33,00.html

As is the case with many "industrial supplies", I didn't see any  
sites catering to the "mid-sized" customer who might want to buy one  
20kg sack every year or so.  It's rumored to get down to about $10/kg  
in that quantity (direct from the *previous* manufacturer?)

BillW


'[EE]::Brittle-- was Friendly plastic aka Polycapro'
2008\02\27@151331 by Cedric Chang

flavicon
face
Are we talking 60C here ?  140F ?  My sperm are wincing.

{Quote hidden}

2008\02\27@185627 by William \Chops\ Westfield

face picon face

On Feb 27, 2008, at 12:13 PM, Cedric Chang wrote:

> Are we talking 60C here ?  140F ?

That's what's listed as the melting point.

There seem to be two ways that this is used in craft:

1) melt all the way to a "liquid" state in near-boiling water
2) "soften" in less hot water so that existing "shapes" (ie sheets)  
can be reshaped.

BillW

2008\02\27@195022 by Cedric Chang

flavicon
face
yes, my question remains..... does it go "bad" after a certain amount  
of time
at room temperature or below.

cc

{Quote hidden}

> --

'[EE]:: Friendly plastic aka Polycaproactone ak'
2008\02\28@042407 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>I bought a 500g tub from Maplin in the UK for around £10 ($20usd) when they
>had it on special offer.
>
> http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=35511&criteria=polymorph&doy=27m2
>
>Dom

I'm told it is about half the Maplin price at Rapid.

http://www.rapidonline.com/searchresults.aspx?style=0&kw=polymorph seems to
find it, but in smaller amounts.

2008\02\28@062314 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
>I bought a 500g tub from Maplin in the UK for around £10
>($20usd) when they
>had it on special offer.

> http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=35511&criteria=polymorph&doy=27m2


I'm told it is about half the Maplin price at Rapid.

http://www.rapidonline.com/searchresults.aspx?style=0&kw=polymorph
seems to
find it, but in smaller amounts.


If I buy 10 x 100g from a local wholesaler it's about $NZ60
or about GBP25?.

Not too much dearer in single 100g lot.



       Russell

2008\02\28@081218 by Richard Benfield

flavicon
face
This looks a better price
http://www.rapidonline.com/productinfo.aspx?&tier1=Educational+Products&tier2=Graphics%2c+Art+%26+Design&tier3=Materials&tier4=Polymorph&moduleno=34444&catRef=87-0092


{Original Message removed}

2008\02\28@115409 by Cedric Chang

flavicon
face
Are there any AMERICUNS ( hooorahhh ) left on this list.  Where does  
a freeping imperialist running dog buy this stuff ?
I mean really....  let's deal with the important folks first.  ( a  
concerned american )
cc

> On Feb 28, 2008, at 6:12 AM, Richard Benfield wrote:
>
> This looks a better price
> http://www.rapidonline.com/productinfo.aspx?&tier1=Educational
> +Products&tier2=Graphics%2c+Art+%26
> +Design&tier3=Materials&tier4=Polymorph&moduleno=34444&catRef=87-0092
>
>
> {Original Message removed}

2008\02\28@120915 by Richard Benfield

flavicon
face
Try using "Polymorph" as a search term with froogle or google shopping or
whatever its called these days.


{Original Message removed}

'[EE]:: Friendly plastic aka Polycaproactone aka Po'
2008\02\28@122931 by Marc Nicholas

picon face
shapelock.com

-marc

On Thu, Feb 28, 2008 at 11:53 AM, Cedric Chang <cc.....spamnope9.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>  > {Original Message removed}

'[EE]:: Friendly plastic aka Polycaproactone ak'
2008\02\28@124939 by William \Chops\ Westfield

face picon face

On Feb 28, 2008, at 8:53 AM, Cedric Chang wrote:

> Are there any AMERICUNS ( hooorahhh ) left on this list.  Where does
> a freeping imperialist running dog buy this stuff ?


There were links (albeit, screwed by formatting) in my message
referencing the reprap site.  Here:

   http://www.sculpt.com/catalog_98/craft/craft.htm#friend

$40 for 28oz.

BillW

2008\02\28@185821 by Cedric Chang

flavicon
face
Hey man, we americanistos are the top of the food chain.  It is a  
brit that should do the search for me.  And take a bullet for me if  
that is what is called for.  I have gradually seen furinuurs take  
over this list and it just ain't right.  My leader Jorge Bushcado say  
so.
cc

> On Feb 28, 2008, at 10:01 AM, Richard Benfield wrote:
>
> Try using "Polymorph" as a search term with froogle or google  
> shopping or
> whatever its called these days.
>
>
> {Original Message removed}

2008\02\28@201224 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
Hey man, we americanistos are the top of the food chain.  It
is a
brit that should do the search for me.  And take a bullet
for me if
that is what is called for.  I have gradually seen furinuurs
take
over this list and it just ain't right.  My leader Jorge
Bushcado say
so.

Cedric,

<F_level = /CedricChan;/Damn_Yankees>

We need to foster this approach.
As long as we can continue to let them let us filter their
information through our filters we will be able to continue
to rule the world without them knowing.

</F_level = /CedricChan;/Damn_Yankees>

Hear hear!


       Russell

2008\02\29@021155 by Richard Benfield

flavicon
face
I was just about to ask what the original language was, so that I could put
it through Google\translate.
{Original Message removed}

2008\02\29@080707 by Apptech

face
flavicon
face
>> Hey man, we americanistos are the top of the food chain.
>> It
>> is a
>> brit that should do the search for me.  And take a bullet
>> for me if
>> that is what is called for.  I have gradually seen
>> furinuurs
>> take
>> over this list and it just ain't right.  My leader Jorge
>> Bushcado say
>> so.



>I was just about to ask what the original language was, so
>that I could put
> it through Google\translate.


<F_level = /CedricChan;/Damn_Yankees>

I think it's an emerging dialect - a patois of 'damn yankee'
and 'ugly american' with perhaps a hint (hardly visible
here) of 'pax americana' thrown in. No hint of motherhood or
apple pie here. Sea to shining sea also seems absent.

</F_level = /CedricChan;/Damn_Yankees>

Who can tell?


       R



'Most compact, PIC18-friendly, P.I.D. loop code'
2008\03\04@112622 by Matthew Rhys-Roberts
flavicon
face
I'm looking for some reasonably simple PID code to do the following:

Inputs:
a) 16-bit setpoint (0000-FFFF)
b) 16-bit sensor (0000-FFFF)
c) P, I & D coefficients (8? 16? bits each)

Output:
16-bit drive (0000-FFFF), which
increases towards FFFF if sensor < setpoint,
decreases towards 0000 if sensor > setpoint,
stands still when sensor = setpoint.

Code would nominally be called every 10mS, but this is not set in stone.

Anything off the shelf out there worth recommending please?

Thanks

Matt

'[EE]:: Friendly plastic aka Polycaproactone aka Po'
2008\03\17@132003 by Howard Winter

face
flavicon
picon face
Russell,

(Continuing my habit of saying the right thing when the right time to say it has long passed...)

On Wed, 27 Feb 2008 23:10:09 +1300, Apptech wrote:

{Quote hidden}

And isn't Melinex a brand name of Melamine (used for "unbreakable" crockery)?  Which if I remember rightly is a thermosetting plastic, not a thermoplastic one?

Cheers,


Howard Winter
St.Albans, England



'[PIC] PIC-Friendly "serial expansion bus"'
2008\08\17@195317 by Forrest W Christian
flavicon
face
I'm working on selecting a "expansion bus" for a PIC project I'm working
on.   In short, the architecture is that I'll have a master controller
which will need to poll several slave modules.

Characteristics which are requirements are:

1) Cheap.

2) Two-way communication and messaging.   Think digital and analog I/O.

3) Implementable using PIC's on both the master and slave side.  A PIC
implementation should not require any external logic to the PIC.

4) Daisy-chainable architecture.   This means either bus or in/out
architectures are acceptable.   Star architectures are not.   Note this
kills SPI, since \CS is a problem in this regard.

5) Slaves should be able to be detected by the master, and should not
have to have addresses set via dip-switches or other means.   Globally
(factory set) unique addresses are ok (aka 1-wire style), dip-switches
are not (aka i2c is not an option).

6) Very low pin count.   Lower the better.   Like 2-3 or fewer, not
counting Vss.

Some additional preferred characteristics:

1) Bit-bangable is preferred.   Bit-bangable without lots of nasty
timing issues is even better.  In fact, I almost added bit-bangable to
the requirements, since it is pretty common for me to have both the MSSP
and the EUSART tied up - although if I had to choose required hardware
I'd say the EUSART would be less likely to be used.

2) Easily implementable or libraries are available for C18.

I keep coming back to 1-wire, but I really don't like the looks of how
big of a pain it is to implement and some of the nasty timing requirements.

I have also been thinking about a multidrop or "ring" async.   That is,
either connecting the tx of one unit to the rx of the next one and so on
back to the start - or tying tx (through a fet and pullup resistor) and
rx together on all of the units, and do it that way...  but I really
don't like bit-banging serial data.

In short, I haven't found the perfect solution yet...   Ideas?

-forrest

2008\08\17@202842 by John Coppens

flavicon
face
On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 17:52:40 -0600
Forrest W Christian <KILLspamforrestcspam_OUTspamimach.com> wrote:

> In short, I haven't found the perfect solution yet...   Ideas?

Maybe combine spi and i2c? Have a dataline that runs around, ring-style,
but instead of clocking with a fixed (serial-style) clock, which the
peripherals could hold low to 'brake' the master.

This would mean 3 lines on each device: In/Out/Clk.

John

2008\08\17@204503 by Harold Hallikainen

face
flavicon
face
I've done an open collector UART based bus with multiple devices. There's
a pull-up resistor on the bus. UART RX pins tie directly to the bus.
Transmit pins have a diode to the bus with the cathode at the TX pin so
the TX pin can pull the bus down. Design a packet protocol that includes
to and from addresses, length, and CRC. On identifying new units, all
units could have a unique ID (serial number) of whatever length is
appropriate (16 or more bits, perhaps). Any device newly powered up sends
a packet announcing its ID. It does this again every minute or so unless
it has heard from the master. The master can poll all devices as often as
necessary, resetting the timer that triggers the ID announce.

This open collector bus can also be run in an Aloha network mode where
remote devices just send their data now and then, occasionally colliding.
You send enough data so an occasional loss is tolerable. I did this in an
electric car battery monitor. Each battery had its own monitor that drove
an opto coupler to the open collector bus.

Harold

--
FCC Rules Updated Daily at http://www.hallikainen.com - Advertising
opportunities available!

2008\08\17@211208 by John Day

flavicon
face
At 07:52 PM 8/17/2008, Forrest W Christian wrote:
>5) Slaves should be able to be detected by the master, and should not
>have to have addresses set via dip-switches or other means.   Globally
>(factory set) unique addresses are ok (aka 1-wire style), dip-switches
>are not (aka i2c is not an option).

Nothing that you have said actually rules out I2C. If you use the
'general call' address, you can discover the devices on the bus and
then dynamically assign an I2C address. In reality it depends almost
entirely on how dynamic you little network is, if it is highly
dynamic then this may result in a slow start-up each time.

But if a slave in that network (so it needs to know which network it
is in at any given time) stores the assigned address and your address
mechanism discovers all of the identified devices first, then any new
devices can be given otherwise unused ID's.

Not being a PIC-head I can't really comment on implementation, but
I2C can be bit banged pretty easily and apart from actual I2C devices
which require a hard configured address, there are a vast array of
cable drivers, extenders and speed-up devices out there.

John

2008\08\18@044852 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>>5) Slaves should be able to be detected by the master, and should not
>>have to have addresses set via dip-switches or other means.   Globally
>>(factory set) unique addresses are ok (aka 1-wire style), dip-switches
>>are not (aka i2c is not an option).
>
>Nothing that you have said actually rules out I2C. If you use the
>'general call' address, you can discover the devices on the bus and
>then dynamically assign an I2C address. In reality it depends almost
>entirely on how dynamic you little network is, if it is highly
>dynamic then this may result in a slow start-up each time.

That is my reaction also. You don't say how these devices are connected into
the network, are they in a card cage, separate devices connected by cables,
some other scheme? None of this removes the possibility of having an
appropriate number of pins on the connection plug that sets the device
address for that node, which gets around your dislike of dip switches.

The other possibility I thought of would be the CAN bus, which has a rather
different way of setting who receives what, but does have limited message
length, which requires a bit of thinking about to send long messages.

2008\08\18@054825 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 7:52 AM, Forrest W Christian <spam_OUTforrestcspamTakeThisOuTimach.com> wrote:
>
> In short, I haven't found the perfect solution yet...   Ideas?

CAN? Some CAN controllers are really quite cheap. Maybe Microchip's
CAN controllers are a bit more expensive and it is said that C18's built-in
CAN implementation is of demo quality only).

Xiaofan

2008\08\18@054938 by Xiaofan Chen

face picon face
On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 4:48 PM, Alan B. Pearce <.....A.B.Pearce.....spamRemoveMErl.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> The other possibility I thought of would be the CAN bus, which has a rather
> different way of setting who receives what, but does have limited message
> length, which requires a bit of thinking about to send long messages.
>

8 Bytes not enough for the OP? And there are fragmentation protocols
for CAN.

Xiaofan

2008\08\18@060721 by Forrest W Christian

flavicon
face
To address both items at once:

My past experience with I2C is rather old... and pretty much limited to
the port-expander and ADC/DAC hardware.  That experience pretty much got
me thinking along the lines of each device has a hardwired address and
there isn't much flexibility on most parts as to what addresses are
available to you.   I've now corrected my thinking in that regards...

As far as how these are connected together...  These are devices which
are intended to be din-rail (or wall) mounted right next to each other
with a short, but pin-limited jumper cable between them.  I'm also
providing power and ground via that jumper.   I figure the jumper will
likely be a 6p6c or a 8p8c connector.  Right now, I'm toying with the
idea of using power, ground, and data on a multidrop serial bus, and
assigning each device a globally-unique serial number at manufacture
time so that the probed order can be preserved from run to run.  The
3-wire bus will let me use a 6p6c, but double up each pin so that I can
use either "reversed" or "straight" 6p6c jumpers.

That said, I'm still open to ideas..

-forrest

Alan B. Pearce wrote:
{Quote hidden}

2008\08\18@061753 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>8 Bytes not enough for the OP?

Well, he doesn't say how big a message he needs ...

>And there are fragmentation protocols for CAN.

I know it is possible to send large messages, we do it on a satellite
instrument, it is 'just' a case of sorting out a suitable protocol for the
bus.

2008\08\18@071423 by Michael Rigby-Jones

picon face


> -----Original Message-----
> From: spam_OUTpiclist-bouncesTakeThisOuTspamEraseMEmit.edu [EraseMEpiclist-bouncesspamBeGonespamKILLspammit.edu] On
Behalf
> Of John Day
> Sent: 18 August 2008 02:12
> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
> Subject: Re: [PIC] PIC-Friendly "serial expansion bus"
>
> At 07:52 PM 8/17/2008, Forrest W Christian wrote:
> >5) Slaves should be able to be detected by the master, and should not
> >have to have addresses set via dip-switches or other means.
Globally
> >(factory set) unique addresses are ok (aka 1-wire style),
dip-switches
> >are not (aka i2c is not an option).
>
> Nothing that you have said actually rules out I2C. If you use the
> 'general call' address, you can discover the devices on the bus and
> then dynamically assign an I2C address. In reality it depends almost
> entirely on how dynamic you little network is, if it is highly
> dynamic then this may result in a slow start-up each time.

One thing that would tend to make it undesirable IMO is the complexity
of implementing a slave in software, especially if you want it to work
at reasonable speeds.  If the SSP/MSSP is available on the slave devices
then it's not a problem, but having the heardware available on the
slaves is less likely than on the master IMO.

Regards

Mike

=======================================================================
This e-mail is intended for the person it is addressed to only. The
information contained in it may be confidential and/or protected by
law. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, you must
not make any use of this information, or copy or show it to any
person. Please contact us immediately to tell us that you have
received this e-mail, and return the original to us. Any use,
forwarding, printing or copying of this message is strictly prohibited.
No part of this message can be considered a request for goods or
services.
=======================================================================

2008\08\18@072812 by olin piclist

face picon face
Forrest W Christian wrote:
> I'm working on selecting a "expansion bus" for a PIC project I'm
> working on.

I don't think there is anything that meets all your requirements.

You also failed to separate what you want it to accomplish from how you
imagine it will accomplish it.  The latter doesn't belong in a spec.  If you
specify the former correctly, then you will, by definition, be happy with
anything that meets it, no matter how that is accomplished.  A spec like
must be big bangable is silly, since that is not a end in itself.  And of
course "easily implementable" is no spec at all.

You left out some important and obvious requirements, like speed, bus
length, whether it will go outside the box or not, and the kind of external
noise it must tolerate.  All in all, you need to go back and figure out your
real spec.  You're not ready for answers to your spec yet since you don't
have a spec.

All that aside, CAN sounds like it meets most of your needs.  It is built
into many PICs, but does require a separate small tranceiver chip at each
node.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\08\18@102905 by Bob Axtell

face picon face
You didn't indicate what speed you needed.

I have had good luck with Manchester coding. It is almost completely
insensitive to timing
differences, so I use it between RC-timed PICs or RC-timed PICs and
crystal-controlled PICs.

Normally I have an OUT and an IN channel seperately, so two pins are
needed. A MASTER sends a command, and the correct slave answers. But
max the speed is about 1K BPS.

--Bob

On Sun, Aug 17, 2008 at 4:52 PM, Forrest W Christian <RemoveMEforrestcspamBeGonespamspamimach.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

> -

2008\08\18@145751 by peter

picon face
Harold Hallikainen <harold <at> hallikainen.org> writes:

> I've done an open collector UART based bus with multiple devices. There's
> a pull-up resistor on the bus. UART RX pins tie directly to the bus.

That works well and is not limited to pics. 8051s also work with such a bus. It
can also be debugged and controlled from a PC. I have also used such a bus in
the past. The only problem is the requirement for a stable clock, which excludes
RC parts. A solution is the Dallas 1-wire bus which is self clocked.

Peter


2008\08\18@164416 by Harold Hallikainen

face
flavicon
face

> Harold Hallikainen <harold <at> hallikainen.org> writes:
>
>> I've done an open collector UART based bus with multiple devices.
>> There's
>> a pull-up resistor on the bus. UART RX pins tie directly to the bus.
>
> That works well and is not limited to pics. 8051s also work with such a
> bus. It
> can also be debugged and controlled from a PC. I have also used such a bus
> in
> the past. The only problem is the requirement for a stable clock, which
> excludes
> RC parts. A solution is the Dallas 1-wire bus which is self clocked.
>
> Peter
>

I think the new PICs with internal RC are stable enough for this
application unless you are doing a very wide temperature range.

Harold

--
FCC Rules Updated Daily at http://www.hallikainen.com - Advertising
opportunities available!

2008\08\19@003422 by Forrest Christian

flavicon
face
Olin Lathrop wrote:
> You left out some important and obvious requirements, like speed, bus
> length, whether it will go outside the box or not, and the kind of external
> noise it must tolerate.  All in all, you need to go back and figure out your
> real spec.  You're not ready for answers to your spec yet since you don't
> have a spec.
>  
I *do* have a spec, but it is pretty open at this point.   I admit that
I missed verbalizing a couple of key points - like distance and speed
(and to answer you, I really only need a few hundred bps, and I need an
end-to end bus length of a few feet, and although noise immunity is a
concern, I don't think I'm all that worried over a few foot bus running
at a few hundred bps.).

But, did you ever think I was perhaps *deliberately* vague about some
points so that I wouldn't put preconcieved notions in people's head?   I
was hoping for a wide variety of answers which would point me in some
directions I hadn't thought about - and the more detailed you write the
"spec" the fewer answers you get - which is exactly what I was trying to
avoid.

I really appreciate everyone that took the time to *think* about this
for at least a few seconds and respond, instead of just assuming that
the person asking the question was a clueless dolt and responding .   In
fact, almost every response other than Olin's was useful and helpful.  
I especially appreciate Harold's response, as I was kinda heading in
that direction already and his experience in doing so proved to validate
what I was thinking.   I'm also going to dig a bit more on a couple of
the other ideas as well (such as dig more into CAN and Manchester coding).

-forrest

2008\08\19@075244 by olin piclist

face picon face
Forrest Christian wrote:
> I *do* have a spec, but it is pretty open at this point.

That's a good one!

I'll remember that along with what two guys that were starting a PC fab
house told me a bunch of years ago: "We can do quality, just not
consistently.".  What makes it so funny is that they were serious.

> I really only need a few hundred bps, and I need
> an end-to end bus length of a few feet, and although noise immunity
> is a concern, I don't think I'm all that worried over a few foot bus
> running at a few hundred bps.

Ah, now we're getting somewhere.  This means some kind of passively pulled
up bus would work.  Some simple two wire clock and data scheme, perhaps.
That's basically what IIC is, but you don't have to use that exact protocol
if it's not convenient.  IIC is rather poor on noise immunity due to the
thresholds having to work with 3V logic.  Something using 5V logic with
Schmidt trigger inputs and stiffer pullups might help.  Since your data rate
is so low, bit banging in firmware is a serious option, especially if you
wire the clock line to a interrupt pin.

> But, did you ever think I was perhaps *deliberately* vague about some
> points so that I wouldn't put preconcieved notions in people's head?

No, I think you hadn't thought out your problem properly and now you're just
coming up with a excuse to save face.  You need to learn to separate
implementation from requirements.  This is one of the key traits that
separate good engineers from mediocre.  For example, telling people you need
a few 100 bits/second isn't telling them how to accomplish it, but it's
important information that opens up a range of possibilities that would not
be open if you needed 100Kbits/second.

> and the more detailed you write
> the "spec" the fewer answers you get

No, you still don't get it.  This is very basic engineering 101.  The spec
says what you need, not how to accomplish it.  Obviously you have
requirements at some level.  A spec is merely a way to describe these
requirements quantitatively.  If you are unsure, then pop up a level or two
until you do know what you need.

> I really appreciate everyone that took the time to *think* about this
> for at least a few seconds and respond, instead of just assuming that
> the person asking the question was a clueless dolt and responding .

Bad specs is a way to common problem, and shouldn't be allowed to go
unchallenged.  It's just as bad as wrong unit or no units at all, for
example.

> In fact, almost every response other than Olin's was useful and
> helpful.

Blame the messenger is you want.  I'm not sure what's worse, a bad spec or
people proposing implementations without knowing what the implementation
needs to accomplish.

Note that my guess of CAN as a possible solution sounds like a bad idea now
in light of additional information you finally provided.


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\08\19@102053 by John Day

flavicon
face
At 04:48 AM 8/18/2008, you wrote:
> >>5) Slaves should be able to be detected by the master, and should not
> >>have to have addresses set via dip-switches or other means.   Globally
> >>(factory set) unique addresses are ok (aka 1-wire style), dip-switches
> >>are not (aka i2c is not an option).
> >
> >Nothing that you have said actually rules out I2C. If you use the
> >'general call' address, you can discover the devices on the bus and
> >then dynamically assign an I2C address. In reality it depends almost
> >entirely on how dynamic you little network is, if it is highly
> >dynamic then this may result in a slow start-up each time.
>
>That is my reaction also. You don't say how these devices are connected into
>the network, are they in a card cage, separate devices connected by cables,
>some other scheme? None of this removes the possibility of having an
>appropriate number of pins on the connection plug that sets the device
>address for that node, which gets around your dislike of dip switches.

When I use I2C it is usually with physically separate modules and
cables. My master controller of choice is the LEDuino ( maybe because
I designed it! ) http://www.siliconrailway.com we have adopted a
small low cost 4 pin connector as our interface.


>The other possibility I thought of would be the CAN bus, which has a rather
>different way of setting who receives what, but does have limited message
>length, which requires a bit of thinking about to send long messages.

Interesting you mention CAN. Yes, it is a possibility, but not
simple! Or even cheap. But Microchip do offer a wide variety of
controllers with CAN controllers. Others do as well, but the OP is
specifically interested in CAN. The code overhead is much higher, but
it is a more robust system commonly found in motor vehicles,
aeroplanes and industrial applications.

John


>

2008\08\19@102411 by John Day

flavicon
face
At 06:04 AM 8/18/2008, you wrote:
>To address both items at once:
>
>My past experience with I2C is rather old... and pretty much limited to
>the port-expander and ADC/DAC hardware.  That experience pretty much got
>me thinking along the lines of each device has a hardwired address and
>there isn't much flexibility on most parts as to what addresses are
>available to you.   I've now corrected my thinking in that regards...
>
>As far as how these are connected together...  These are devices which
>are intended to be din-rail (or wall) mounted right next to each other
>with a short, but pin-limited jumper cable between them.  I'm also
>providing power and ground via that jumper.   I figure the jumper will
>likely be a 6p6c or a 8p8c connector.

I2C has come a long way in recent years. One great change has been
the use of the basic I2C spec in a variety of other bus systems. For
lots of info and for details of a variety of buffer / extender
products see http://www.hendersonsemiconductor.com . They also offer
application notes talking about speed-up circuits and the other buses.

John


{Quote hidden}

>

2008\08\19@102725 by John Day

flavicon
face
At 07:13 AM 8/18/2008, you wrote:


{Quote hidden}

Maybe this is more of a PIC limitation than an I2C limitation! I
don't know about the Microchip range but in the Atmel products the 8
pin ATtiny25/45/85 have hardware I2C (master or slave).

Regards, John


{Quote hidden}

>

2008\08\19@112038 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>> > Nothing that you have said actually rules out I2C. If you use the
>> > 'general call' address, you can discover the devices on the bus and
>> > then dynamically assign an I2C address. In reality it depends almost
>> > entirely on how dynamic you little network is, if it is highly
>> > dynamic then this may result in a slow start-up each time.
>>
>>One thing that would tend to make it undesirable IMO is the complexity
>>of implementing a slave in software, especially if you want it to work
>>at reasonable speeds.  If the SSP/MSSP is available on the slave devices
>>then it's not a problem, but having the heardware available on the
>>slaves is less likely than on the master IMO.
>
>Maybe this is more of a PIC limitation than an I2C limitation! I
>don't know about the Microchip range but in the Atmel products the 8
>pin ATtiny25/45/85 have hardware I2C (master or slave).

I have used both master and slave on a PIC 16F using the code in AN734 and
AN735. I converted both to interrupt driven code, and they worked fine for
my application. For the OPs application I would look at using the same code
again.

The only hiccup I see with I2C is his desire to not have to set the address
using DIP switches, and using minimal pin connectors. If able to set an
address in EEPROM on each device then it shouldn't be a problem.

2008\08\19@120824 by BlissWorld

flavicon
face

Hi,

There's a new protocol made by Microchip called UNI/O that makes use of
manchester coding. It's specified as 10 to 100kbps. It uses only one wire.
They made it for use with their cheap low pin count baseline 10F, 12F mcu's
but I think it can be used anywhere. Also cool little things are their new
UNI/O 3-pin SOT-23 (!) serial EEPROMs.

Some documentation:
General:  http://www.microchip.com/unio http://www.microchip.com/unio
Implementations for mcu's:
www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=2542&param=en533105
http://www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=2542&param=en533105
Bus spec:  ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/DS-22076B.pdf
http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/DS-22076B.pdf

Maybe it's just suitable for your application.
--
View this message in context: www.nabble.com/PIC-Friendly-%22serial-expansion-bus%22-tp19024498p19048267.html
Sent from the PIC - [PIC] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

2008\08\19@141048 by peter green

flavicon
face

> The only hiccup I see with I2C is his desire to not have to set the address
> using DIP switches, and using minimal pin connectors. If able to set an
> address in EEPROM on each device then it shouldn't be a problem.
>  
The other big problem with I2C is it is a PITA to do in software and
doing it in hardware ties up the MSSP which depending
on what the slave is doing may be needed for other functions.

There are pics with multiple MSSP devices but they tend to have other
downsides like high pin count fine pitch packages.

The USART OTOH is in my experiance mostly used for hooking up a PC and
the USART based open collector bus system still allows you to easilly do
that.



2008\08\19@142738 by olin piclist

face picon face
peter green wrote:
> The other big problem with I2C is it is a PITA to do in software ...

I don't know why you say that.  IIC is all synchronous and is not complex.
I've done it a number of times where there wasn't a MSSP or I was already
using it for something else.  The only issue is the slave has to respond at
the speed of the master.  That means there are speed issues with a software
slave implementation, but that doesn't make it difficult.  Doing a IIC
master is about as easy as really very easy.  Have you looked closely at the
protocol?


********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\08\19@144850 by Michael Rigby-Jones

picon face


> -----Original Message-----
> From: .....piclist-bouncesRemoveMEspammit.edu [KILLspampiclist-bouncesspamTakeThisOuTmit.edu] On
Behalf
> Of Olin Lathrop
> Sent: 19 August 2008 19:30
> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
> Subject: Re: [PIC] PIC-Friendly "serial expansion bus"
>
> peter green wrote:
> > The other big problem with I2C is it is a PITA to do in software ...
>
> I don't know why you say that.  IIC is all synchronous and is not
complex.
> I've done it a number of times where there wasn't a MSSP or I was
already
> using it for something else.  The only issue is the slave has to
respond
> at
> the speed of the master.  That means there are speed issues with a
> software
> slave implementation, but that doesn't make it difficult.  Doing a IIC
> master is about as easy as really very easy.  Have you looked closely
at
> the
> protocol?

I suspect Peter was referring to the slave implementation.  Now we know
the OP requires only a couple of 100 bps, a software I2C slave becomes
more practical.  Supporting 100kbit/s on a bit bashed slave tends to hog
up an awful lot of CPU cycles.

Regards

Mike

=======================================================================
This e-mail is intended for the person it is addressed to only. The
information contained in it may be confidential and/or protected by
law. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, you must
not make any use of this information, or copy or show it to any
person. Please contact us immediately to tell us that you have
received this e-mail, and return the original to us. Any use,
forwarding, printing or copying of this message is strictly prohibited.
No part of this message can be considered a request for goods or
services.
=======================================================================

2008\08\19@145006 by John Temples

flavicon
face
On Tue, 19 Aug 2008, peter green wrote:

> There are pics with multiple MSSP devices but they tend to have other
> downsides like high pin count fine pitch packages.

The PIC24FJ64GA004 family has two I2C ports, two SPI ports, and two
UARTs.  These are six independent ports; I2C and SPI are not
multiplexed as they are in the PIC16/18 families.  Some parts in this
family are available in a 28-pin DIP package.

--
John W. Temples, III

2008\08\19@155453 by Matthew Miller

flavicon
face
On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 01:30:59PM -0700, Harold Hallikainen wrote:
>
>
> I think the new PICs with internal RC are stable enough for this
> application unless you are doing a very wide temperature range.

That's right! At room temperature USART communication works fine, but if
your device is a bit warm then comm fails. This is my experience with the
16F690. I used the chip as part of a data logger and would have to bring the
device inside and once it was at room temp then it worked fine. Not too big
a problem though...

Matthew

2008\08\20@035541 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>> The only hiccup I see with I2C is his desire to not have to set the
>> address
>> using DIP switches, and using minimal pin connectors. If able to set an
>> address in EEPROM on each device then it shouldn't be a problem.
>>
>The other big problem with I2C is it is a PITA to do in software and
>doing it in hardware ties up the MSSP which depending
>on what the slave is doing may be needed for other functions.
>
>There are pics with multiple MSSP devices but they tend to have other
>downsides like high pin count fine pitch packages.
>
>The USART OTOH is in my experiance mostly used for hooking up a PC and
>the USART based open collector bus system still allows you to easilly do
>that.

OK, I guess using the 9 bit mode or LIN mode that some PICs have might be
the way to go then.

2008\08\20@104151 by alan smith

picon face



--- On Tue, 8/19/08, John Day <TakeThisOuTjohn.dayspamspam_OUTsiliconrailway.com> wrote:

> From: John Day <RemoveMEjohn.dayspamspamSTOPspamsiliconrailway.com>
> Subject: RE: [PIC] PIC-Friendly "serial expansion bus"
> To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <.....piclistEraseMEspammit.edu>
> Date: Tuesday, August 19, 2008, 7:26 AM
> At 07:13 AM 8/18/2008, you wrote:
>
>
> > > {Original Message removed}

2008\08\21@174548 by cdb

flavicon
face
Would using the DMX protocol be of any use here? Relatively easy to
bit bang, and with some judicious coding, the different channels could  
be made to 'self address'  a new node.

By that I mean, the chips at the node could be programmed to accept
channel 1 (a sort of broadcast channel), the node chip would read it
itself discover it has a non assigned node number, accepts the address
information contained in the broadcast, updates itself, so that a
channel 1 address won't activate it again, but the new real node
channel now will.  Some fancy mechanism could be thunked up, to
persuade a node to respond to channel 1 again if re-addressing became
necessary. The drawback here would be that nodes could only be brought
online one at a time. Other than that there are 511 channels worth of
slaves to be had.

Colin
--
cdb, spamBeGonecolinspamRemoveMEbtech-online.co.uk on 22/08/2008

Web presence: http://www.btech-online.co.uk  

Hosted by:  http://www.1and1.co.uk/?k_id=7988359







2008\08\21@191607 by Harold Hallikainen

face
flavicon
face

> Would using the DMX protocol be of any use here? Relatively easy to
> bit bang, and with some judicious coding, the different channels could
> be made to 'self address'  a new node.
>
> By that I mean, the chips at the node could be programmed to accept
> channel 1 (a sort of broadcast channel), the node chip would read it
> itself discover it has a non assigned node number, accepts the address
> information contained in the broadcast, updates itself, so that a
> channel 1 address won't activate it again, but the new real node
> channel now will.  Some fancy mechanism could be thunked up, to
> persuade a node to respond to channel 1 again if re-addressing became
> necessary. The drawback here would be that nodes could only be brought
> online one at a time. Other than that there are 511 channels worth of
> slaves to be had.
>
> Colin


DMX now has Remote Device Management, which includes a discovery mode to
find devices on the network. It runs at 250kbps over EIA485. I did a lot
with DMX for about 15 years, but never implemented RDM. I think it's a bit
fancier than is required here. The use of the break as a start of frame
marker in DMX is useful though. I ended doing the break in hardware. When
I was doing DMX, the UARTs in PICs could not do a break. Those that can do
it will not do a long enough break to meet the DMX spec. It's more
designed for LIN.

Harold




--
FCC Rules Updated Daily at http://www.hallikainen.com - Advertising
opportunities available!

2008\08\22@001509 by M. Adam Davis

face picon face
On Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 7:15 PM, Harold Hallikainen
<.....haroldEraseMEspamhallikainen.org> wrote:
> I ended doing the break in hardware. When
> I was doing DMX, the UARTs in PICs could not do a break. Those that can do
> it will not do a long enough break to meet the DMX spec. It's more
> designed for LIN.

If you set the bitrate to 100kbps and send the byte 0x00 you'll get a
90uS 'break' on the line (the spec calls for 88uS, but longer is ok
with the earlier spec).  Alternately you can just set the port output
appropriately (switch from the uart for 90uS, then switch back with
the output and data register preset - need only change the peripheral
usage).

Detecting a break is simply detecting two framing errors in a row.

Of course, there are other unusual factors that may require a
different solution, but these are the common PIC DMX generation and
detection methods.

-Adam

--
EARTH DAY 2008
Tuesday April 22
Save Money * Save Oil * Save Lives * Save the Planet
http://www.driveslowly.org

2008\08\22@010907 by David Cary

face picon face
Dear Forrest W Christian,

I've been playing with a few communication physical layers that seem
similar to what you're looking for:
* 5-wire daisy-chain SPI
* 5-wire "completely asynchronous, speed independent"
* 2-wire power + data (and optional gyrators)

Is there a wiki somewhere that discusses developing new communication protocols?
Should I publish my list of "22 common communication pitfalls"?

== 5-wire daisy-chain SPI ==

I am currently using some chips that use "daisy-chain SPI" (is there a
better name for this?).
It sounds very similar to some of the ideas you suggested.
I think JTAG also uses "daisy-chain SPI".
The data tx of each unit is connected to the data rx of the next unit
in a big ring, just as you suggested.
Unlike the "independent-select SPI", the "daisy-chain SPI" does *not*
require the master to generate an independent chip-select for each
slave.
No matter how many slaves there are, the master controls them with 3
output pins and 1 input pin.
Also, each daisy-chain SPI slave has 3 input pins and 1 output pin.

Such an interface also does *not* require any dip-switches or unique
addresses -- every slave can be identical, and yet the master can
still tell which slave generated which message and send each slave its
own commands (by the hop distance along the daisy-chain).

Assuming the slaves are close enough to the master that you only need
a single conductor for each signal (rather than a twisted pair),
each cable from one device to the next carries the global signals
* +power
* -power
* clock
* frame
and the local signal
* data bit.
... also, the "out" cable from the last slave on the chain is
connected to the master, making a big ring.
That's 5 out of the 6 pins available on the 6p6c cable.

The timing requirements for daisy-chained SPI are pretty simple,
making it fairly easy to bit-bang.
(However, later I describe a different protocol that has no timing
requirements at all).

Also, if all the PICs are running at the same voltage (all at 5.0 V or
all at 3.0 V), you can connect the PICs pin-to-pin without any other
hardware.
(But I would throw in at least a resistor between the 2 PICs, because
all too often bugs in my software cause pins that should be inputs
sensing a signal to instead be outputs fighting over the signal).

It sounds like you more-or-less independently re-invented this idea,
eliminating the "frame" signal by adding software complexity (now each
slave needs a unique address), and eliminating the "clock" signal by
adding stricter timing requirements.

> Date: 17 Aug 2008
> From: Forrest W Christian
...
> 1) Cheap.
...
> 2) Two-way communication and messaging.
...
> 3) Implementable using PIC's on both the master and slave side.  A PIC
> implementation should not require any external logic to the PIC.
>
> 4) Daisy-chainable architecture.
...
> 5) Slaves should be able to be detected by the master
...
> (factory set) unique addresses are ok (aka 1-wire style), dip-switches
> are not
...
> 6) Very low pin count.
...
> 1) Bit-bangable is preferred.   Bit-bangable without lots of nasty
> timing issues is even better.
...
{Quote hidden}

== 5-wire "completely asynchronous, speed independent" ==

SPI and IIC are easy to bit-bang on the master.
But a SPI or IIC slave has some timing requirements that, at higher
bitrates, can be a bit tricky to bit-bang.

I *think* it is possible to design a protocol that has no timing
requirements at all, even on the slaves.

> Date: 17 Aug 2008
> From: John Coppens
...
> Maybe combine spi and i2c? Have a dataline that runs around, ring-style,
> but instead of clocking with a fixed (serial-style) clock, which the
> peripherals could hold low to 'brake' the master.

That sounds like a good idea.
But how do you guarantee that the slave is fast enough to notice that
the master has pulled the clock pin down, and quickly also drive the
clock pin down before the master lets it back up?

In order to relax the timing requirements even more (to make it even
easier to bit-bang), I've been thinking about a protocol that is
completely timing-independent.
No matter how fast or slow 2 devices are, they can still communicate
(at a rate limited by the slower device).

Even if one of the devices is distracted halfway through a bit, and
thinks about something else for a few seconds, the protocol can still
resume as if nothing had happened.

Something like this:
Initially, all lines are floating high (open-collector pull-up).
To transmit a "1" bit, the left device pulls down the "T1" line and
lets the "T0" line continue to float high.
Eventually, the right device realizes that a "1" is being transmitted,
and pulls down the "T0" line in response.
Eventually, the left device realizes the bit has been received, and
lets the lines float high again (for faster speed, OK to drive the T1
line high).
Eventually, the right device realizes that the "1" bit is no longer
being transmitted, and lets the lines float high again.

Transmitting a "0" bit is similar, except the left device pulls down
the "T0" line first, the right device pulls down "T1", and then they
relax.
(This is similar to, but not quite the same as, the "dual-rail
encoding" used in some "completely asynchronous, speed independent"
CPUs).

Assuming the slaves are close enough to the master that you only need
a single conductor for each signal (rather than a twisted pair),
each cable from one device to the next carries the global signals
* +power
* -power
* frame
and the local signals
* T0
* T1
(If every slave has a unique serial number, you could dispense with
the global frame signal).

If all the PICs are running at the same voltage (all at 5.0 V or all
at 3.0 V), you can connect the PICs pin-to-pin with only a pull-up
resistor (I think I would one at each end of the cable).
(But I would throw in at least a resistor between the 2 PICs, because
all too often bugs in my software cause pins that should be inputs
sensing a signal to instead be outputs fighting over the signal).


> Date: 18 Aug 2008
> From: Forrest W Christian
...
> These are devices which
> are intended to be din-rail (or wall) mounted right next to each other
> with a short, but pin-limited jumper cable between them.  I'm also
> providing power and ground via that jumper.   I figure the jumper will
> likely be a 6p6c or a 8p8c connector.  Right now, I'm toying with the
> idea of using power, ground, and data on a multidrop serial bus, and
> assigning each device a globally-unique serial number at manufacture
> time so that the probed order can be preserved from run to run.
...

== 2-wire power + data (and optional gyrators) ==

> Date: 18 Aug 2008
> From: "Bob Axtell"
...
> I have had good luck with Manchester coding. It is almost completely
> insensitive to timing
> differences, so I use it between RC-timed PICs or RC-timed PICs and
> crystal-controlled PICs.
...

What I like most about Manchester coding is that I don't have to
manually set a baud rate.

It also has zero DC component, allowing it to easily pass through
coupling capacitors, which is convenient for another serial bus I've
been thinking about:

2 wires in the cable.
The 2 wires carry the data (in one direction).
The 2 wires *also* carry the power.

I'm still impressed that the telephone company engineers somehow
manage to get full-duplex simultaneous 2-way communication *and* power
over a single twisted pair.

This requires a bit more external hardware (a handful of inductors and
capacitors and resistors; also a analog comparator -- although some
PICs have a built-in analog comparator) than the above schemes, so
it's probably not appropriate for your application.
So I'll say no more about it here
(except to say that each inductor can optionally be replaced by
single-transistor gyrator).

Serial Peripheral Interface Bus : Daisy chain SPI configuration
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_Peripheral_Interface_Bus#Daisy_chain_SPI_configuration

two PIC port pins "fighting" each other
http://massmind.org/techref/postbot.asp?by=time&id=piclist\1997\03\11\203507a&tgt=post&key=pins+fighting

Single transistor gyrator for telephony applications
http://www.epanorama.net/documents/telecom/gyrator.html

--
David Cary
http://carybros.com/
http://opencircuits.com/

2008\08\22@105606 by Harold Hallikainen

face
flavicon
face

{Quote hidden}

Since I was simultaneously receiving DMX on the same UART, I could not
disable the UART or change the bit rate to send the break. I ended up
running the UART TX line through a resistor to the EIA485 transmitter. The
far side of the resistor was also connected to a PIC port pin that was
programmed low, but tristated. When I wanted to send a break, I'd set the
pin to output. When I wanted to end the break, I'd tristate the pin again.
Another interesting issue is synchronizing the break with the data. Since
the PIC uart on the 18 series will not generate an interrupt on the
transmit shift register being empty, it was difficult to generate the
break at the correct time. I ended up using a timer interrupt instead of
the UART interrupt. The timer interrupt would run a state machine that set
the break, cleared the break, or sent data. This is the technique I used
in the products I designed for http://www.dovesystems.com .

Harold


--
FCC Rules Updated Daily at http://www.hallikainen.com - Advertising
opportunities available!

2008\08\22@123310 by olin piclist

face picon face
> Detecting a break is simply detecting two framing errors in a row.

No, just one.

********************************************************************
Embed Inc, Littleton Massachusetts, http://www.embedinc.com/products
(978) 742-9014.  Gold level PIC consultants since 2000.

2008\08\23@031317 by Christopher Head

picon face
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

| Something like this:
| Initially, all lines are floating high (open-collector pull-up).
| To transmit a "1" bit, the left device pulls down the "T1" line and
| lets the "T0" line continue to float high.
| Eventually, the right device realizes that a "1" is being transmitted,
| and pulls down the "T0" line in response.
| Eventually, the left device realizes the bit has been received, and
| lets the lines float high again (for faster speed, OK to drive the T1
| line high).
| Eventually, the right device realizes that the "1" bit is no longer
| being transmitted, and lets the lines float high again.
|
| Transmitting a "0" bit is similar, except the left device pulls down
| the "T0" line first, the right device pulls down "T1", and then they
| relax.
| (This is similar to, but not quite the same as, the "dual-rail
| encoding" used in some "completely asynchronous, speed independent"
| CPUs).
This is actually very very similar to the idea behind the original
unidirectional transmission mechanism on the PC parallel port, only
you're going serial instead of parallel:
1. the PC sets the data lines and drives strobe
2. the printer sees strobe, reads the data, and drives acknowledge
3. the PC sees acknowledge and drops strobe
4. the printer sees strobe dropped and drops acknowledge
5. the PC sees acknowledge dropped and can proceed to the next byte.

At least, that's what I read. I looked at some code in the Linux
parallel port driver, and I'm not sure it actually implements all the
waiting properly.

I guess if you want higher speed, there's no reason why you couldn't
take a page out of ATA and drive a new data element on each edge of
strobe (rising and falling); in that case, "ack = strobe" means the
recipient has seen all the data so far, and "ack != strobe" means the
recipient hasn't received the most recent datum. This would save the
rather useless wait state of "let strobe go back to its idle state and
wait until the recipient notices that it's idle".

Chris
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: GnuPT 2.7.2
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iEYEARECAAYFAkivuHMACgkQiD2svb/jCb4wKwCbBRO0gasAIwJ6l0KlQT5pX0BJ
ikgAnjGvxnHaOH6Sf8Xv+3brLlWPKJvg
=udqG
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


'[EE]environment friendly electronics enclosure'
2009\02\20@183117 by Funny NYPD
picon face
We have been using the Deutsch enclosures and connectors for OEM products for quite some time. It is well designed to withstand the harsh truck/Marine environment, such as water/mud/salt spray, vehicle/vessel vibration, underhood temperature, UV radiation, etc.

Excellent product, but very high price.

Try to find some low cost alternatives for some time, and still a work in progress.
Any low cost environment friendly enclosure (in size around 4inch W x 6 inch L x 1~2 inch H) recommendation (such as NEMA 4/4x enclosures) would be highly appreciated.


Funny N.
Au Group Electronics, http://www.AuElectronics.com



     

'[OT] Hobbyist-Friendly Samples'
2009\02\25@162848 by solarwind

picon face
Hey all, a recent discussion about driving dot matrix displays led to
talk about samples from different companies. I want to try and build a
list of companies that give out product samples for ICs,
microcontrollers, etc. Hobbyist friendly.

If you have a company to add, please post.


Current companies:

Microchip - Sample any microcontroller 3 types x 2 pieces each I
believe per month for $7.50.
http://www.microchip.com/

Maxim IC - As far as I know, unlimited samples. FedEx shipping. Totally free.
http://www.maxim-ic.com/

Austria Microsystems - Totally free samples. I believe there is a
limit of 3 pieces max for each type of product. Totally free.
http://www.austriamicrosystems.com


Please post and share your experiences and add companies to the list.


--
solarwind

2009\02\26@041048 by Matt Rhys-Roberts

flavicon
face
solarwind wrote:
> If you have a company to add, please post.
>  
Analog Devices and Linear (LTC) have sent me a few free samples before. (UK)

Matt

2009\02\26@050433 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Analog Devices and Linear (LTC) have sent me a
>few free samples before. (UK)

Me too. (also UK).

I have also got a sample out of Allegro Microsystems, for one of their
current sensing chips.

2009\02\26@054307 by Alan B. Pearce

face picon face
>Analog Devices and Linear (LTC) have sent me a
>few free samples before. (UK)

I meant to say I have also had samples from Intersil, of one particular
device I was interested in. I haven't tried them on a regular basis though.

2009\02\27@132216 by Josh Koffman

face picon face
On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 4:27 PM, solarwind <spamx.solarwind.x@spam@spamSTOPspamgmail.com> wrote:
> Microchip - Sample any microcontroller 3 types x 2 pieces each I
> believe per month for $7.50.
> http://www.microchip.com/

Has anyone in Canada or the US ordered Microchip samples with their
new pricing/system? I want to try a new USB PIC but the little
shipping chart here:
http://www.microchip.com/samples/Default.aspx?testCookies=true has me
worried. Basically it says that while Microchip Direct orders are 2-5
days, samples are 1-2 weeks.

Anyone have any emperical findings?

Josh
--
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools.
       -Douglas Adams


'[OT] Hobbyist-Friendly Samples'
2009\03\03@054402 by Electron
flavicon
face
At 22.27 2009.02.25, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Texas Instruments / Burr Brown: 4 dispatches every 6 months, max 8 types
of IC per dispatch, quantity depends by the IC (usually from 1 to 10).
FedEx or UPS dispatches, totally free.

With kind regards,
Mario


>
>
>--
>solarwind
>-

2009\03\03@183009 by Russ Hensel

picon face
see:   http://www.opencircuits.com/Free_Samples

also several recent instructables.com


Russ

2009\03\03@185343 by solarwind

picon face
On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 6:29 PM, Russ Hensel <spamBeGoneruss_henselspamBeGonespam@spam@verizon.net> wrote:
> see:   http://www.opencircuits.com/Free_Samples
>
> also several recent instructables.com
>
>
> Russ

Very nice. Thanks for the link.


'[TECH] Hobbyest-friendly OBD-II Reader'
2009\06\22@193729 by Forrest Christian
flavicon
face
I have a need for a OBD-II reader this coming weekend and figured I  
would use the need as an excuse to buy a reader I could use to  
experiment with as well, such as playing with building a trip computer  
or fuel economy guage as well.

I know that at least one member on here is in the business of selling  
such devices, so of course I'm interested in those, along with others  
which might be available.  I'm thinking of something with a serial or  
USB interface and also something that has an open interface so it can  
be accessed by my own software.

Since I've never actually played with the obd interface I'm not even  
really sure what to look for, so any ideas would be welcomed.

Thanks!

Forrest

Sent from my iPod

2009\06\23@165421 by Vitaliy

flavicon
face
Forrest Christian wrote:
>I have a need for a OBD-II reader this coming weekend and figured I
> would use the need as an excuse to buy a reader I could use to
> experiment with as well, such as playing with building a trip computer
> or fuel economy guage as well.
>
> I know that at least one member on here is in the business of selling
> such devices, so of course I'm interested in those, along with others
> which might be available.  I'm thinking of something with a serial or
> USB interface and also something that has an open interface so it can
> be accessed by my own software.
>
> Since I've never actually played with the obd interface I'm not even
> really sure what to look for, so any ideas would be welcomed.

The member is probably me, and the company is ScanTool.net
(http://www.scantool.net).

There are many different OBD interfaces out there, but the main difference
is the protocol on the PC side. These are the ones off the top of my head:

http://www.elmelectronics.com
http://obddiagnostics.com/
www.multiplex-engineering.com/interfaces.htm
http://autotap.com/
http://www.obd-2.com/

Everyone else either uses interfaces made by these companies, or makes
"compatibles". For example, Autoenginuity uses interfaces built by
Multiplex.

Our scan tools are based on the ELM327 IC by Elm Electronics. In 2002, we
released open source diagnostic software compatible with the ELM command
set, and today ELM327-based interfaces or ELM327 clones are by far the most
popular PC-based scan tools.

The Autotap protocol looks solid and I've heard good things about it. The
Multiplex protocol is the most awful protocol I've seen.

ELM327 protocol is an adaptation of the AT command set. For example:

ATZ = reset device
ATE1 = echo on
ATI = print ID string

OBD commands are sent without the headers (ELM327 automatically calculates
them). So to get RPM, you would send:

010C

Coolant temperature is 0105, vehicle speed is 010D, and so on. By default,
responses also contain only data (no headers), so you would get back:

// 41 is response to 01, the second byte is the Param ID (PID)
41 0C 01 23    // last two bytes are data, 1/4 RPM per bit
41 05 FF          // last byte is data, 1 degree per bit w/ 40C offset
41 0D FF        // 255 km/hr

If you're going to do any serious development, I would strongly advise you
to get an ECU simulator:

http://www.ecusims.com

Alternatively, you can get an ECU from a junk yard, but varying PIDs would
be problematic.

If you decide that one of our interfaces is a good choice, please drop me an
email and I'll send you a discount code. :)

Vitaliy


'[OT] Quote - You and your friends are exactly what'
2010\04\05@181947 by ivp
face picon face
"video of me smashing a brand new ipad right out of the box still at bestbuy
lol"

http://forums.g4tv.com/showthread.php?t=147699

Incomprehensible

2010\04\05@185830 by solarwind

picon face
On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 6:17 PM, ivp <RemoveMEjoecolquittRemoveMEspamRemoveMEclear.net.nz> wrote:
> "video of me smashing a brand new ipad right out of the box still at bestbuy
> lol"
>
> http://forums.g4tv.com/showthread.php?t=147699
>
> Incomprehensible

It's true. Most of the kids in my high school and every school before
that are like this. I'm so happy that I'm at U of T now. Much fewer
idiots walking the campus. I personally think that this generation is
pathetic.

2010\04\05@193439 by Russell McMahon

face picon face
> "video of me smashing a brand new ipad right out of the box still at bestbuy
> lol"
>
> http://forums.g4tv.com/showthread.php?t=147699
>
> Incomprehensible

I could post a video of me doing that with one of our 'Mini' lights.
Trouble is it wouldn't break.
Well, maybe if you got really extreme it would :-).
My standard demo is to either place kick them down a concrete yard or
if not enough room for that, throw them to about 3 metres high. It
gets people's attention. (The aim of course is not the resultant
destruction but, in this case, the lack of it).

For, perhaps, something similar to what you are seeing with these
kids, see "Potlatch".

This Wikipedia article refers to it almost solely in terms that sound positive

               http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potlach

and make the legal and missionary originated bans on it sound harsh
and illogical.

However, buried in there is the sentence

             "Within it, hierarchical relations within and between
clans, villages, and nations, are observed and reinforced through the
distribution or sometimes destruction of wealth, dance performances,
and other ceremonies."

I think that the " .... sometimes destruction ..."  may have had
unusual values of "sometimes" and that what you are seeing with the
kids and their iPads comes soemwhat close to the destructive side of
Potlatch. B,IMBW :-)

Potlatch refs at end, should anyone care :-)


or perhaps "conspicuous consumption". A term coined, inteerestingly, in 1899.

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspicuous_consumption

_________

Potlatch

Relevant

    http://www.kunstkamera.ru/en/museum_exhibitions/enciklopedia/america/festivals/potlatch/

Wealth of confusing comment:

   http://www.sandycline.com/rita/potlatch.html

Status by destruction - more open mention here

   http://www.answers.com/topic/potlatch

and

   http://sociologyindex.com/potlatch.htm

Almost funny.
A where's wally type potlatch.doc photo trail.

   http://www.blumology.net/potlatch.html

2010\04\05@212715 by YES NOPE9

flavicon
face
Rzzzzzzzzz
please post a video of your Mini lite being banged around.
I would love to see a close up of your lite.
Gus

{Quote hidden}

2010\04\05@214116 by Russell McMahon

face picon face
> Rzzzzzzzzz
> please post a video of your Mini lite being banged around.
> I would love to see a close up of your lite.

Video sometime :-)

Not quite closeup here

  http://www.bogolight.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=60

Closerupish of them 'in the wild' here.
Those are the SL2 - not the mini.

       http://public.fotki.com/RussellMc/atw/bogo/sl2africa01/sl2africa.html

SL2 is no wimp, but not as tough impact wise as the Mini.
eg I wouldn't place-kick them on concrete as a demonstration :-)
Do it often enough with the Mini and they slowly degrade. Bezel ring
breaks, carabiner may get smashed off (!) depending on impact point.
Body gets to look 'exceeding grotty'. Light keeps going :-).






{Quote hidden}

> -

2010\04\05@215703 by ivp

face picon face
>> http://forums.g4tv.com/showthread.php?t=147699
>>
>> Incomprehensible
>
> I could post a video of me doing that with one of our 'Mini' lights.
> Trouble is it wouldn't break

Destructive testing is one thing but whacking an iPad to verify the claim
that it's weak is just mental, even if it is his own money. And would that
be cash or just another grand to stick on the plastic ? If you told
lilmattlp
that $100 notes are flammable, would he set light to one to see ? Would
he look if you told him "gullible" isn't in the dictionary ?

Probably, but destruction goes deeper than that. He said it was "fun",
so maybe he's a Type T personality. Or just one of those morons who
thinks being "out there" is some sort of success

It reminds me of Father Liam Deliverance (Father Ted series), or Abe
Simpson who would go out of their way to pull on, stamp on, bash and
break products and furniture to show how "flimsy" they are

I wonder if litmattlp tries similar product testing at home. Maybe this is
how that waste of space Bam Margera and his ilk got started

So many today care little about money, property or consequences and
are taking an awfully long time to grow up

2010\04\05@231223 by John Gardner

picon face
Those who don't remember the '60s are condemned to repeat them?

:)

2010\04\06@002827 by ivp

face picon face

> Those who don't remember the '60s are condemned to repeat them?

Haha. Yes, if you can't learn from the past, what's the point having one ?

2010\04\06@005235 by Marcel Duchamp

picon face
On 4/5/2010 9:28 PM, ivp wrote:
>
>> Those who don't remember the '60s are condemned to repeat them?

I resemble that remark!

2010\04\06@005907 by solarwind

picon face
On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 12:28 AM, ivp <joecolquittKILLspamspamspamclear.net.nz> wrote:
> Haha. Yes, if you can't learn from the past, what's the point having one ?

That implies the ability to select whether or not to have a past,
which one cannot.

2010\04\06@012007 by John Gardner

picon face
> That implies the ability to select whether or not to have a past,
>  which one cannot.

Ah, no. The past happened, independent of your perception. Hard to
believe, I know, but as time goes by, you'll come around.

I used to be your age... About a million years ago...  :)

Jack

On 4/5/10, solarwind <spam_OUTx.solarwind.x@spam@spamgmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 12:28 AM, ivp <TakeThisOuTjoecolquittspam_OUTspamclear.net.nz> wrote:
>> Haha. Yes, if you can't learn from the past, what's the point having one ?
>
> That implies the ability to select whether or not to have a past,
> which one cannot.
> -

2010\04\06@012906 by solarwind

picon face
On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 1:20 AM, John Gardner <KILLspamgoflo3.....spamTakeThisOuTgmail.com> wrote:
> Ah, no. The past happened, independent of your perception. Hard to
> believe, I know, but as time goes by, you'll come around.

What? Your statement and my statement are in accordance with each
other. I'm saying that the past happened no matter what, and so are
you.

2010\04\06@014700 by John Gardner

picon face
> What? ...

My apologies. I  misunderstood your post.

Jack

2010\04\06@015458 by Russell McMahon

face picon face
> Those who don't remember the '60s are condemned to repeat them?

If you can remember the 60's you were't there.

I can.
(And AFAIk I was, so ...)

     Russell

2010\04\06@024908 by solarwind

picon face
On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 1:54 AM, Russell McMahon <TakeThisOuTapptechnzEraseMEspamRemoveMEgmail.com> wrote:
>> Those who don't remember the '60s are condemned to repeat them?
>
> If you can remember the 60's you were't there.

Is that a reference to getting drunk? Or have I missed the point entirely?

2010\04\06@031044 by Russell McMahon

face picon face
>>> Those who don't remember the '60s are condemned to repeat them?

>> If you can remember the 60's you were't there.

> Is that a reference to getting drunk? Or have I missed the point entirely?

No & no :-).

Usually more a drugs reference. Flower power generation, LSD et al. Al
had lots of LSD* :-).
(* Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds). (Not to mention the technician from
Wichita... *).
I was a bit * Leary of such things myself.



              Russell

* Who I neither want or need, I'm pleased to say.
** A lot actually.

2010\04\06@082058 by cdb

flavicon
face


:: (* Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds).

And I always thought it stood for pounds, shillings and pence. or is
that Libra, shillings and denari?

I don't know the youth of today miss out on base 12, base 20, base 14,
16, 256 - just boring old base 10 is all they have to look forward to.

Now how many fathoms in cricket pitch or is that rods per chain?

Colin
--
cdb, spam_OUTcolinRemoveMEspam.....btech-online.co.uk on 4/6/2010

Web presence: http://www.btech-online.co.uk  

Hosted by:  http://www.1and1.co.uk/?k_id=7988359








2010\04\06@091102 by Russell McMahon

face picon face
> I don't know the youth of today miss out on base 12, base 20, base 14,
> 16, 256 - just boring old base 10 is all they have to look forward to.

OCT 31 = DEC 25
(Halloween and New year)

COFFEE = 12648430

10101 today, 10101 today, I've got the key of the door, never been
10101 before ...
(Even I am not THAT old)

There are 10 sorts of people, ...

The Babylonians started all the 12 and 20 etc rubbish.
Decided that 60 was a useful number to subdivide things from and away they went.
2,3,4,5,6,10,12,20,30 not bad.

360 days in an original Babylonian  year as well.
Used to work well I'm told until Mars got in on the act. All ancient
calendars used, I'm told , to have 360 days years until about BC xxx
(some say xxx = 701) when orbital resonances finally setlled down. May
even be true. I suspect not but it's a good story. Certainly stranger
things have happened and do happen in the solar system.


         Russell








{Quote hidden}

>

2010\04\06@092104 by Bob Ammerman

flavicon
face
>>> Those who don't remember the '60s are condemned to repeat them?
>>
>> If you can remember the 60's you were't there.
>
> Is that a reference to getting drunk? Or have I missed the point entirely?

more likely under the influence of some other mind-altering substance

-- Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems

2010\04\06@092256 by M. Adam Davis

face picon face
There are people who spend money to play online games so they can
annoy the other players - the term is "griefers"

There are people who go out to eat so they can berate their servers.

There are those that drove past lines of people waiting for a new
Harry Potter book, yelling out the ending.

There is a company that took an iphone when it was new and scarce and
blended it.

And there are people who purchase an iPad with the intent of
destroying it in front of others who want one, but can't get one yet
because they are oversold.

And yet... life still, somehow, goes on.

-Adam

On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 6:17 PM, ivp <spamjoecolquittspam_OUTspamclear.net.nz> wrote:
> "video of me smashing a brand new ipad right out of the box still at bestbuy
> lol"
>
> http://forums.g4tv.com/showthread.php?t=147699
>
> Incomprehensible
>
> -

2010\04\06@092848 by M. Adam Davis

face picon face
On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 9:10 AM, Russell McMahon <STOPspamapptechnzspam_OUTspamspamBeGonegmail.com> wrote:
> There are 10 sorts of people, ...

My new favorite is:

There are 1 types of people in this world:
Those who index starting at 0, and those with off-by-one errors.


--
http://chiphacker.com/ - EE Q&A site

2010\04\06@093342 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
Since google's search can act as a calculator which is aware of units,
you can do some really funny stuff quickly, like determine the density
of water in stone per cubic fathom.

(1 gram) per (cubic centimeter) = 963.174249 stone per (cubic fathom)

Sean


On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 8:20 AM, cdb <spam_OUTcolinspamspamBeGonebtech-online.co.uk> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2010\04\06@093649 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
At least the company who blended the iPhone was creative about it - it
was Blendtech (sp?) and it was part of their "Will it blend?" video
series on Youtube. It wasn't just laughing at destruction but
curiosity to see A) can the blender grind up said item and B) what
happens when the item gets ground up (e.g. do batteries short out)

The iPod was still quite a waste, I agree, but overall the series was
funny and interesting even from an engineering viewpoint. Especially
when he blended the golf club!

Sean


On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 9:22 AM, M. Adam Davis <EraseMEstienmanRemoveMEspamgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>> --

2010\04\06@103203 by Herbert Graf

picon face
On Tue, 2010-04-06 at 10:17 +1200, ivp wrote:
> "video of me smashing a brand new ipad right out of the box still at bestbuy
> lol"
>
> http://forums.g4tv.com/showthread.php?t=147699
>
> Incomprehensible

Why? What right do you or I have to determine what another person finds
entertaining?

It was there money to do with as they please. If smashing an iPad gives
them kicks I say go for it. What would you say to someone firing off
fireworks on the 4th of July? Same thing? It's a pure "burning of
money", just like this is.

I've never understood the "it's your money but I should have some say in
how you spend it" mentality.

TTYL

2010\04\06@104525 by solarwind

picon face
On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 10:30 AM, Herbert Graf <@spam@hkgrafEraseMEspamspamgmail.com> wrote:
> Why? What right do you or I have to determine what another person finds
> entertaining?

According to that logic, one has no right to question another who is
finding entertainment in murdering innocent people.

http://digg.com/d31NZ0Z

2010\04\06@111144 by Herbert Graf

picon face
On Tue, 2010-04-06 at 10:42 -0400, solarwind wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 10:30 AM, Herbert Graf <hkgrafTakeThisOuTspamKILLspamgmail.com> wrote:
> > Why? What right do you or I have to determine what another person finds
> > entertaining?
>
> According to that logic, one has no right to question another who is
> finding entertainment in murdering innocent people.

If you were to completely blindly follow my statement, yes, it would.

However, societies have other rules to follow, which would bracket this
statement.

And you know that Solarwind. You are trying to start a flame war: stop,
NOW.

The point is buying an iPad and smashing it with a baseball bat hurts
noone. The person doing it got their jollies from it. Same as I enjoy
firing off fireworks. From a societal point of view this should be fine.

TTYL

2010\04\06@113125 by Marechiare

picon face
> The point is buying an iPad and smashing it with a baseball
> bat hurts noone. The person doing it got their jollies from it.
> Same as I enjoy firing off fireworks. From a societal point of
> view this should be fine.

tolerable not "fine", things should be used according to specs, that
is, the way they are intended to be used. Fireworks are meant to be
fired, iPad is not meant to be smashed with a baseball bat. The
societal point of view depends on the location of that point.

2010\04\06@113603 by solarwind

picon face
On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 11:10 AM, Herbert Graf <RemoveMEhkgrafTakeThisOuTspamgmail.com> wrote:
> If you were to completely blindly follow my statement, yes, it would.
>
> However, societies have other rules to follow, which would bracket this
> statement.
>
> And you know that Solarwind. You are trying to start a flame war: stop,
> NOW.

Not really. Besides, it's OT.

> The point is buying an iPad and smashing it with a baseball bat hurts
> noone. The person doing it got their jollies from it. Same as I enjoy
> firing off fireworks. From a societal point of view this should be fine.

Society is comprised of the "the people". And therefore society's
viewpoint is the collective viewpoint of "the people". A lot of people
think that it's stupid to senselessly destroy an expensive piece of
electronic equipment. Fireworks, by comparison, put on a far better
show and cost much less. This video of kids destroying an iPad,
however, symbolizes reckless behavior and rebellion.
>
> -

2010\04\06@113635 by M. Adam Davis

face picon face
On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 10:42 AM, solarwind <@spam@x.solarwind.xSTOPspamspamgmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 10:30 AM, Herbert Graf <TakeThisOuThkgrafTakeThisOuTspamRemoveMEgmail.com> wrote:
>> Why? What right do you or I have to determine what another person finds
>> entertaining?
>
> According to that logic, one has no right to question another who is
> finding entertainment in murdering innocent people.

Your line of logic makes sense given the UN's recent declaration:

iPad rights set out in the Declaration

The following reproduces the articles of the Declaration which set out
the specific iPad rights that are recognized in the Declaration.

   Article 1
       All iPads are manufactured free and equal in dignity and
rights. They are endowed with A4 processors and iPhone OS and should
communicate one with another in a wireless fashion.
   Article 2
       Everypad is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth
in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as purchase
date, price, memory capacity, wireless connectivity, firmware
revision, software revision, or board revision number.
   Article 3
       Everypad has the right to long battery life, liberty from
wires and security of mechanical assemblage.
...

So yes, as soon as [insert your country here] adopts this declaration
then destroying an iPad for entertainment will be equivalent to
murdering a human being for entertainment.

You might urge your lawmakers to start drafting support for this
declaration immediately, before any more iPads are cruelly deprived of
their rights in this heinous fashion.

--
http://chiphacker.com/ - EE Q&A site

2010\04\06@114557 by M. Adam Davis

face picon face
On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Marechiare <spam_OUTmarechiarespamspam.....gmail.com> wrote:
>> The point is buying an iPad and smashing it with a baseball
>> bat hurts noone. The person doing it got their jollies from it.
>> Same as I enjoy firing off fireworks. From a societal point of
>> view this should be fine.
>
> things should be used ... the way they are intended to be used.

Are you sure about that?  Humans are adaptive tool users.  The English
language even has a word for that suggests using something in a way it
was not originally intended to be used: utilize.

I find it surprising that an engineer express such a restrictive
notion - that things should not be put to uses other than their
intended use.

(double checking to make sure the subject line is OT...;-)

--
http://chiphacker.com/ - EE Q&A site

2010\04\06@121139 by Alexandros Nipirakis

picon face
I dont think that the core question is whether or not the people who
did this have the right to do this.  They are, of course, allowed to
spend their money in whatever way they see fit.  If they feel they
wish to destroy that which they buy, they of course have the right to
do just that.

It does follow, though, that even as they have the right to do
something it does not make it any less stupid.  There are starving
people in this world, and the five hundred dollars spent to needlessly
destroy a useful piece of electronics hardware could have been better
spent.

On the same token, it can be said that anyone can destroy anything
they own (property).  As long as (of course) the destruction doesn't
harm anyone else.

I cannot view the movie from work, but can I assume that the
destruction was because of their hatred of Apple?  If so, then it
seems even more stupid.  They are angry at a company, so they
effectivly give them money for nothing?  Seems pretty senseless to me.

I suppose the only final comment is to point out that many people find
the senseless destruction of things to be abhorable.  I am one of
these people.  The thing was produced by someone and does in it have
the original person's labor.  It represents human time in its design
and manufacture.  Therefore, people should respect that someone
created the things they have, have taken pride in their work and
therefore the product should be respected as such.

Even as I find what these people did reprehensible, I agree that they
have the right to do it.  There are no laws protecting iPads,
MacBooks, iPhones or any other Apple or Non-Apple device.  We, as
onlookers, also have the right to have the opinion that this is stupid
-- which I think is the prevailing thought.

Just my 0.02

Aleksei


On 6 April 2010 11:45, M. Adam Davis <stienman.....spam@spam@gmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

>

2010\04\06@123335 by Herbert Graf

picon face
On Tue, 2010-04-06 at 11:35 -0400, solarwind wrote:

> This video of kids destroying an iPad,
> however, symbolizes reckless behavior

Please look up the definition of reckless, for example:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/reckless

reckless: marked by lack of proper caution : careless of consequences

I don't see either of these applying, proper caution was there since it
wasn't likely anybody else would be affected. The consequences were
obvious and again wouldn't hurt anybody else.

> and rebellion.

What's wrong with a little rebellion every once in a while? Rebellion
isn't necessarily a bad thing. I'd go so far as to say that a society
NEEDS people who question why things are the way they are and challenge
"norms".

A good example recently was a protest in Portland where a bunch of
people, men AND women walked down the street topless. Their argument:
why is it OK in our society for a man to be topless but not a women?

When you agree with them or not, asking the question is IMHO a GOOD
thing for society.



2010\04\06@124232 by Derward Myrick

picon face

----- Original Message -----
From: "Herbert Graf" <EraseMEhkgraf.....spamgmail.com>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <spampiclistKILLspamspam@spam@mit.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2010 9:30 AM
Subject: Re: [OT] Quote - You and your friends are exactly what's wrongwith
our species


{Quote hidden}

Herbert,  I think that a person can do with his money as he wants.
I also think that a person has the right to say that he cannot
comprehend someoneoing this.

Derward Myrick








2010\04\06@125005 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face
> I also think that a person has the right to say that he cannot
> comprehend someoneoing this.

I think we've all had plenty of opportunity at this point, can we please
move on to something interesting?

Commenting on the decline of the species is incredibly boring and a huge
waste of bandwidth and there are enough gossip sites on the internet
already.

Thanks,

Bob

--
http://www.fastmail.fm - Same, same, but different...

2010\04\06@125333 by M. Adam Davis

face picon face
On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 12:11 PM, Alexandros Nipirakis
<anipirakisspamspamTakeThisOuTgmail.com> wrote:
> I suppose the only final comment is to point out that many people find
> the senseless destruction of things to be abhorable.  I am one of
> these people.  The thing was produced by someone and does in it have
> the original person's labor.  It represents human time in its design
> and manufacture.  Therefore, people should respect that someone
> created the things they have, have taken pride in their work and
> therefore the product should be respected as such.

Interesting!  I suppose it follows, then, that the payment for the
product was only part of the responsibility the purchaser owes to the
creator of the object?

What, then, do you think of one birthday activity I had many years ago:

1. Spread out a large tarp on the lawn.
2. Place old computer equipment on tarp (some worked, some didn't
mostly valueless)
3. Don suitable safety equipment (glasses are a must, gloves, long
sleeve shirts, and full pants good)
4. Pass around a baseball bat and let people enjoy the entertainment
of applying large mechanical transient forces to the old computer
equipment

Aside from the shear joy of destruction, there was lots of education
to be had - but let's dismiss the possible educational aspects of this
and discuss the point:

Was this activity abhorrent to you, given that it differs from the
iPad incident by only a few particulars?
If not, what particulars make the difference, and what is that difference?
If so, what is the proper "retirement" for objects that people put
their time and labor into so we can show proper "respect" for that
labor when the object no longer has practical use?
In 30 years when a given iPad is literally useless, does one still
have a responsibility to the creator of the iPad to treat it with
suitable respect, or does that responsibility have a time limit?

--
http://chiphacker.com/ - EE Q&A site

2010\04\06@131024 by William \Chops\ Westfield

face picon face

On Apr 6, 2010, at 9:53 AM, M. Adam Davis wrote:

> Aside from the shear joy of destruction

"Joy of destruction" is NOT something that should be encouraged, IMO.

In the iPad case, the motivation is presumably along the lines of "Joy  
of pissing people off."
Which is also not something to be encouraged.

BillW

2010\04\06@132611 by Marechiare

picon face
>> things should be used ... the way they are intended
> to be used.
>
> Are you sure about that?  Humans are adaptive tool
> users.  The English language even has a word for that
> suggests using something in a way it was not originally
> intended to be used: utilize.
>
> I find it surprising that an engineer express such a
> restrictive notion - that things should not be put to
> uses other than their intended use.

Do you teach your kids to smash things, they have no idea what's
inside the things? Let me advise you to teach them using the
technologically  advanced (and other unknown, that is potentially
dangerous) things strictly according to the specs.

2010\04\06@132635 by Alexandros Nipirakis

picon face
On 6 April 2010 12:53, M. Adam Davis <RemoveMEstienmanRemoveMEspamgmail.com> wrote:
{Quote hidden}

I think there is a big difference between taking some computer
hardware, much of which probably didint work and smashing it and
taking something that is brand new and smashing it.

I suppose my objection comes from the fact that the device never saw
useful life.  I suppose the destruction of old computer hardware is
less bad than destroying something new.

But I think both are senseless.

Furthermore, we are loosing much of our computing past because people
do not preserve old computer hardware.  Much of it is destroyed or
thrown away.  Myself, I am quite interested in computer history, and
have several older computers in my house.  My wife hates this of
course, saying "what use is this" and I tell her that you never know
when you will need something.

I think your point about the destruction being informational is at
least partially interesting.  I remember in my younger days (err --
which were not that long ago) when I was in High School, the teacher
would frequently encourage us to take apart old (non-functional) hard
drives to understand how the insides worked.


> If not, what particulars make the difference, and what is that difference?
> If so, what is the proper "retirement" for objects that people put
> their time and labor into so we can show proper "respect" for that
> labor when the object no longer has practical use?
> In 30 years when a given iPad is literally useless, does one still
> have a responsibility to the creator of the iPad to treat it with
> suitable respect, or does that responsibility have a time limit?
>

I think my point is more that people simply don't respect the time and
work that goes into stuff any more.  Everything magically came to
existance and nobody cares who's time went into it.  I think this is
why many people easily and without thought throw things away.  If we
thought of things as the products of human labor, then perhaps we
would have less of an interest in throwing them out.

Consider antiques --

Why do we not, then, smash up old cars who are less efficient than new
ones and have already served their useful life.  Or why do we not burn
old science books and encyclopedias that are not useful anymore (and
are probably digitized anyways).  Or old appliances?  Or (name your
favourite antique).  Why not go the centre of athens and demolish the
parthenon?  Sure, blasting it would be a spectacular show, and since
no one is using it anyways, what's the point.


We don't do these things because we appreciate the objects for what
they are, the product of human inginuity and labour.  Each can be
respected because it provides us a window into its creators.

Now, the destruction of one iPad?  Of course not as detrimental as the
destruction of an antique.  It is, however, probably a poor display of
how we (as consumers in America) respect the things which we are
privleged to have.  Not everyone on the planet can justify plunking
down 500 bucks for something like an iPad, and for someone to basiclly
say "not only can I spend this money for this device, but I can
destroy it since I am so rich" is particularly disturbing.

'STOP THREAD Re: [OT] Quote - You and your friends '
2010\04\06@133205 by Bob Blick

face
flavicon
face
Stop thread.

No more responses to this thread. You have been warned.


--
http://www.fastmail.fm - IMAP accessible web-mail

2010\04\06@133921 by Mike Hagen

picon face
On 4/6/2010 10:32 AM, Bob Blick wrote:
> Stop thread.
>
> No more responses to this thread. You have been warned.
>
>
>    
Good Boy Bob, THANKS!
Lets make something work!

'[OT] Quote - You and your friends are exactly what'
2010\04\06@141342 by Marechiare

picon face
> What, then, do you think of one birthday activity I had
> many years ago:
>
>  1. Spread out a large tarp on the lawn.
>  2. Place old computer equipment on tarp (some worked,
> some didn't mostly valueless)
>  3. Don suitable safety equipment (glasses are a must,
> gloves, long
> sleeve shirts, and full pants good)
>  4. Pass around a baseball bat and let people enjoy the
> entertainment of applying large mechanical transient
> forces to the old computer equipment

The words I'd like to use about the f*****g kind of activity would
definitely bring me down to moderation.


> Aside from the shear joy of destruction, there was lots
> of education to be had - but let's dismiss the possible
> educational aspects of this and discuss the point:

The same words.
"joy of destruction" - what the f*****g concept are you talking about?

2010\04\06@142459 by Al Shinn

picon face
"Those who don't remember the '60s are condemned to repeat them?"

I don't quite get the comparison to the 60s!
We burned draft cards and bras - both positive acts. We smashed many
stupid conventions, more positive acts. We tried to destroy racism,
another good thing.
I guess perhaps a few good minds were irretrievably bent, perhaps that's
a good parallel.

"If you can remember the 60's you were't there.

I can.
(And AFAIk I was, so ...)

      Russell"


Russell,
Perhaps you were in a quite different THERE then the THERE being
referenced.

Looking forward,
Al Shinn



'STOP THREAD Re: [OT] Quote - You and your friends '
2010\04\06@143042 by solarwind

picon face
On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 1:32 PM, Bob Blick <TakeThisOuTbobblickspamspamftml.net> wrote:
> Stop thread.
>
> No more responses to this thread. You have been warned.

What? Why!? It was getting fun!

'[OT] Quote - You and your friends are exactly what'
2010\04\06@150055 by Isaac Marino Bavaresco

flavicon
face
Em 6/4/2010 12:45, M. Adam Davis escreveu:
> Are you sure about that?  Humans are adaptive tool users.  The English
> language even has a word for that suggests using something in a way it
> was not originally intended to be used: utilize.
>  

The word "utilize" came from Latin and is present in the majority of the
Latin derived languages (if not all) and in much others.

Util = useful, util-ize = to make use, to use.

In Portuguese it means exactly that: to use, in the normal and plain sense.


Regards,

Isaac

__________________________________________________
Fale com seus amigos  de graça com o novo Yahoo! Messenger
http://br.messenger.yahoo.com/

2010\04\06@175932 by ivp

face picon face
> I've never understood the "it's your money but I should have some say
> in how you spend it" mentality

I appreciate that. On the flip-side to wanton destruction, I have no
interest in gold-plated taps or a $500k car. It's all relative. Not yet
in the position of having to choose between food or a tube of PICs

Of course lilmattlp can bust up a brand new iPad. I just happen to
have the opinion (and opinions are neither right nor wrong) that it's
a silly thing to do. OTOH it is not hard to spend $1000 with nothing
to show for it. The $500k car, or any new car, for example loses
that and more as soon as it leaves the forecourt, with not a baseball
bat in sight ;-)) !!


More... (looser matching)
- Last day of these posts
- In 2010 , 2011 only
- Today
- New search...