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'Beginners Problem ??'
1999\03\10@234738 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
Hi,

Off hand,I would ask three questions:

#1) What is your power supply to the PIC?
#2) How exactly do you produce that square wave from the AC supply? In
other words,what is between the AC line and the PIC?
#3) What value are those resistors going to the LEDs?

I'm thinking that there are several possibile causes of your problem,which
include:

#1) A power supply which is erratic, inadequate for the power consumption,
not-decoupled (inadequate cap on the PIC's Vdd pin),doesn't rise
monotonically and quickly on power-up,or a combination of these.

#2) The circuit which transfers the square wave to the PIC pin could be
allowing high voltage pulses to reach the PIC pin,thereby conducting
through the input-protection diodes and raising the Vdd supply line
periodically,thus making the power supply to the PIC unsuitable.

#3) The total power drain of the LEDs exceedes the max total source or sink
current of PORTB (100mA source,150mA sink),therefore causing the PIC to
lock up if the number of lit LEDs is greater than a certain number.

Sean

At 09:59 AM 3/11/99 +0530, you wrote:
{Quote hidden}

| Sean Breheny
| Amateur Radio Callsign: KA3YXM
| Electrical Engineering Student
\--------------=----------------
Save lives, please look at http://www.all.org
Personal page: http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/shb7
spam_OUTshb7TakeThisOuTspamcornell.edu ICQ #: 3329174

1999\03\11@100014 by jamesp

picon face
Biswanath,

The first things I would check are the power supply to make sure
it is at the correct voltage and is stable, Put a 10K pullup on
RESET, and I would put the input on RA4 as opposed to RA1, because it is a schmi
tt
trigger input, and will square up the incoming pulses. RA4 would also need a
10K pullup as it is OPEN
DRAIN.   And, I would add 10 uF and .01 uF caps to Vdd for
bypassing if you don't already have them there.  When I design
something new whether for me or someone else, I try to use my
general rules of overengineering to get the design working and
stable.  Then I start taking away parts to find out which are
absolutely necessary, and which can be done without.  This
method hasn't let me down yet.  I'd be interested to know if
these suggestions have any impact whether positive or negative.

                                      Regards,

                                        Jim





{Quote hidden}

1999\03\11@190540 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
Hi Jim,

You are making very good points but there is just one thing: RA4 doesn't
need a pull-up when it is being used as an input. The pull-up only applies
to it when it is acting as an output,that is when it has an open drain
configuration.

Sean

At 08:54 AM 3/11/99 -600, you wrote:
>Biswanath,
>
>The first things I would check are the power supply to make sure
>it is at the correct voltage and is stable, Put a 10K pullup on
>RESET, and I would put the input on RA4 as opposed to RA1, because it is a
schmitt
{Quote hidden}

| Sean Breheny
| Amateur Radio Callsign: KA3YXM
| Electrical Engineering Student
\--------------=----------------
Save lives, please look at http://www.all.org
Personal page: http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/shb7
.....shb7KILLspamspam@spam@cornell.edu ICQ #: 3329174

1999\03\11@220542 by Biswanath Dutta

flavicon
picon face
Thanks Sean --  Answer to your questions --

1) I'm using a prototyping kit which has a rectifier, 1000mfd, 5V regulator --
and is supposed to take in AC. It has a jack which just fitted a small AC
adapter which I happened to have -- it produces 12V DC, no regulation -- so I
just plugged that in. Getting about 4.95V

There may be a problem here -- with the power supply rise time as you have
mentioned.
How important is this & why ?

2) I'm using a 2N2222A transistor -- emittor to gnd, 22K to base, 5.6K
collector to +5V, collector to Pic input. AC voltage is isolated from the mains
by a trafo which gives 22V, connected between 22K and gnd.

3)  470 ohms in series with each LED.

Hope this helps to understand the problem.

Thanks to Mr. & Mrs Paul also for responding.

Biswanath Dutta

Sean Breheny wrote:

{Quote hidden}

1999\03\12@191159 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
Hi again Biswanath,

At 08:22 AM 3/12/99 +0530, you wrote:
>Thanks Sean --  Answer to your questions --

You are very welcome. I just hope we can solve your problem. I know someone
here can.

>
>1) I'm using a prototyping kit which has a rectifier, 1000mfd, 5V
regulator --
>and is supposed to take in AC. It has a jack which just fitted a small AC
>adapter which I happened to have -- it produces 12V DC, no regulation -- so I
>just plugged that in. Getting about 4.95V
>
>There may be a problem here -- with the power supply rise time as you have
>mentioned.
>How important is this & why ?

No,it sounds as if your supply is pretty good. I'd just try adding a 10uF
or so electrolytic cap and a 0.1uF ceramic cap directly between the PIC's
Vdd and Vss pins. I think your supply should rise quickly and monotonically
as it is. The problem with the supply not rising quickly and monotonically
is this: when a PIC first receives power,it holds itself in reset for a
short period of time (if the Power up start timer is enabled). If the power
is not up to its full value by then,the PIC can begin running code in an
unreliable manner or lock up. If the power doesn't rise steadily (i.e. it
dips) during power up,then the PIC can enter a metastable state (it locks
up and won't run code until the power is removed and re-applied). I must
admit that I don't know the particular mechanisms by which this happens in
a PIC,but I think the basic idea is that a PIC is a large sequential logic
circuit. In order to work properly, certain registers (such as the PC) must
get set to their startup values. If the power is not good enough,the
mechanisms which are supposed to set these registers may not set them,or
the registers may lose their contents after being set.

>
>2) I'm using a 2N2222A transistor -- emittor to gnd, 22K to base, 5.6K
>collector to +5V, collector to Pic input. AC voltage is isolated from the
mains
>by a trafo which gives 22V, connected between 22K and gnd.

This could possibly be the problem,although I can't offhand see why it
shouldn't work O.K.. You should be able to do what you want by simply
putting about a 220K resistor between the PIC pin and the output of the
transformer. This will allow the PIC's protection diodes to clip the
voltage with very minimal current flow.

>
>3)  470 ohms in series with each LED.
>

This sounds O.K,it would yield somewhere around 50mA max,less than the rating.

>Hope this helps to understand the problem.
>
>Thanks to Mr. & Mrs Paul also for responding.
>
>Biswanath Dutta
>

Try what was suggested above and let us know what happens.

Sean

|
| Sean Breheny
| Amateur Radio Callsign: KA3YXM
| Electrical Engineering Student
\--------------=----------------
Save lives, please look at http://www.all.org
Personal page: http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/shb7
.....shb7KILLspamspam.....cornell.edu ICQ #: 3329174

1999\03\12@211232 by Biswanath Dutta

flavicon
picon face
Hi Sean,

Thanks once again.

I went back to the dtasheets and saw the PWRT problem mentioned by you.
BTW, I also have external reset Circuitry connected to MCLR -- 10K to VDD, 10mfd
to gnd.
Re: Power-up timer.  Logically, shouldn't the timer start timing after proper
voltage is reached ? ie. 2 V or more ? Why do they have it this way ? Any idea ?
At what voltage does the timer start ?
Shall try a few changes with the power supply and line input, and get back to yo
u.

Regards  -- Biswanath Dutta


Sean Breheny wrote:

{Quote hidden}

1999\03\12@214956 by Jim Paul

picon face
Biswanath,

Isn't 10uF a little large for reset?  I would use something about 1 uF or
less.
This would speed up the edges if it was smaller.  Just curious wht you went
with 10 uF?   Also, I intended to mention the power up timer  when I spoke
to
you last time, but it slipped my mind.


Regards,


Jim
{Original Message removed}

1999\03\12@231502 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
Hi Biswanath,

I don't want to be a pest in your life, but by the fact
that you are learning, you would understand if I correct
you in few things, and I am sure some other people
around will learn it too.

In electronics there are few standards, and it help us
to communicate universaly with almost no problems.

If you learn this now, you will never forget and will
start with the right foot.

all thousands references are lower case, as;

milli (m) 0.001
micro (µ) 0.000,001
nano  (n) 0.000,000,001
pico  (p) 0.000,000,000,001
deca  (d) 10
centi (c) 100
kilo  (k) 1,000
Mega  (M) 1,000,000 (upper case because the -m- milli)
Giga  (G) 1,000,000,000 (upper case because -g- gram)
...others

Ohms,      or R  Resistance
Farads,    or F  Capacitance
Henris,    or H  Inductance
Volts,     or V    
Current,   or I, or Ampere(s)
Impedance, or Z
Hertz,     or Hz

For example, milli is just "m" it is not an abreviation
form, so it does not carry the dot "m."
Start using the right denomination as much as possible
and quickly you will do it without any effort.

10kOhms, or R10k, not 10K, someone can confuse it with
10 Kelvin degrees.

10uF, not 10mfd, someone can mixup it with milliFarads
or some bad name.

Meter (m) doesn't make confusion with milli (m) since
milli alone doesn't exist. It is quantifying some other
unit, as Volts, grams, even meters (mV, mg, mm).

It is incorrect use the letter "u" for micro, but as
it doesn't make any confusion with anything else, and
as the symbol "µ" is not available directly at the
keyboard, we understand and don't care... grrrr!

I already saw many ways to represent the SI standards,
and everytime I see it wrong, my soul get iced.  
Terrors of the standards:
"mts." for "meters", instead the simple "m",
"hrs." for "hours", "mints." for minutes,  
"K" for "kilo", worse, KG for "kilogram",
looks like "a Kelvin degree in free falling
acceleration at G (gravity) 10m^2/s .

Degrees use the "¡" symbol, as ¡F or ¡C, to type it
just press and hold ALT+SHIFT and type 0 1 7 6 at the
numeric keypad.

The same for "µ" ALT+SHIFT+0181 (not 181)
            "¸" ALT+SHIFT+0189
            "¹" ALT+SHIFT+0188
            "²" ALT+SHIFT+0190

So, make my soul warm... :)

I am sorry, I was born in Brazil, and we use metric
system there, so don't ask me why here in US we use
"lb" and say "pounds"...  or at price lists we use
to write "$150/mil" to represent $150 per thousand...
(I understand because in Portuguese that's perfect,
mil = thousand).
--------------------------------------------------------
Wagner Lipnharski - UST Research Inc. - Orlando, Florida
Forum and microcontroller web site:  http://www.ustr.net
Microcontrollers Survey:  http://www.ustr.net/tellme.htm

'[OT] Units [Was: Beginners Problem ??]'
1999\03\13@005719 by Bob Drzyzgula

flavicon
face
On Fri, Mar 12, 1999 at 11:12:49PM -0500, Wagner Lipnharski wrote:
> Hi Biswanath,
>
> I don't want to be a pest in your life, but by the fact
> that you are learning, you would understand if I correct
> you in few things, and I am sure some other people
> around will learn it too.

Sadly, there are competing "standards", which may not
come from electronics per se but are a fact of life
nonetheless. Many corrupting influences of course come
from the vile world of computers, still somehow part of
electronics, no? :-)

>  milli (m) 0.001
>  micro (µ) 0.000,001
>  nano  (n) 0.000,000,001
>  pico  (p) 0.000,000,000,001
>  deca  (d) 10
>  centi (c) 100
>  kilo  (k) 1,000

Yes, but kB always looks wrong, so in discussing memory
capacity KB is not incorrect. In this context, of course,
K is 2^10 instead of 10^3 anyway, so perhaps this is not
a contradiction.  Still, with this excuse, M meaning 2^20
and G meaning 2^30 result in a bit (NPI) of a conundrum.

>  Mega  (M) 1,000,000 (upper case because the -m- milli)
>  Giga  (G) 1,000,000,000 (upper case because -g- gram)
>  ...others
>
> For example, milli is just "m" it is not an abreviation
> form, so it does not carry the dot "m."
> Start using the right denomination as much as possible
> and quickly you will do it without any effort.

Of course, again in the context of computers, "b" is
"bit" (0 or 1), while "B" is "byte" (eight bits). Thus
we get "Kb" for 2^10 bits and "KB" for 2^13 bits, although
one of course on occasion sees "kb" for 2^10 bits, as
though the "K" needed to step down out of pity for the poor
little bit. But surely "MB" is 2^23 bits, and "Mb" is 2^20
bits, and, my all-time favorite when it appears in
print, "mb" is 0.001 bits. I'm still trying to figure
that one out.

> 10kOhms, or R10k, not 10K, someone can confuse it with
> 10 Kelvin degrees.

In this case, I will disagree. If 10kOhms can't be written
"10K", then certainly 10 degrees Kelvin has no greater right
to go around naked like that -- at least it needs to have
the ¡, out of fairness if nothing else. But seriously, "K"
by itself is not, AFAIK, assigned to *any* unit if measure;
degrees Kelvin is ¡K, beginning and end of story; if you
cannot write the ¡ symbol, use the word "degree". Horowitz
and Hill argue vehemently that "10K" is unambiguously
10kOhms; the argument for this is that resistance is the only
unit so fundamental to the study of electronics that it
can be unambiguously stated without the use of the Omega
or word Ohm. It is a judgement call whether or not to go
along with this, but the potential for confusion with Kelvin
isn't a valid argument against it, IMHO. The common usage
of "5R1" for 5.1 Ohms and "5K1" for 5.1 kOhms is similarly
contestable, but seems fairly well ingrained even in the
labling of, say, 1% resistors.

{Quote hidden}

As we drift out of symbols for units and into
physical constants, "G" is the gravitational
constant, approximately 6.6732x10^-11 N-m^2/kg^2,
whereas "g", the acceleration due to gravity,
is approximately 9.80621 m/s^2 at 45¡ latitude.

(Note that, if a multiplicative prefix is used in
a unit specification, (mA, or cm, for example), then
a following exponant (e.g. cm^2) unambiguously
applies to the entire combination, i.e. cm^2 is
square centameters, not centasquaremeters.) Also,
if units are combined, as in N-m for Newton-meters,
a hyphen or a solidus should almost always be used,
but no more than one solidus -- cm/s^2 is OK but
cm/s/s is not.

> Degrees use the "¡" symbol, as ¡F or ¡C, to type it
> just press and hold ALT+SHIFT and type 0 1 7 6 at the
> numeric keypad.
>
> The same for "µ" ALT+SHIFT+0181 (not 181)
>              "¸" ALT+SHIFT+0189
>              "¹" ALT+SHIFT+0188
>              "²" ALT+SHIFT+0190

This, I am afraid, depends greatly on one's choice
of text editor and, perhaps, operating system.

BTW, in preparing this response, I made extensive
use of my trusty "Rubber Bible" -- the CRC Handbook
of Chemistry and Physics, 55th edition, which is
frighteningly dated 1974 (and purchased new by myself,
I must add). I wish to report that Wagner's statement
of the rules for SI multiplicative prefixes is exactly
in agreement with that text, right down to "k" being
lower case and "M" being upper.

In good humor,

--Bob

--
============================================================
Bob Drzyzgula                             It's not a problem
bobspamspam_OUTdrzyzgula.org                until something bad happens
============================================================

1999\03\13@011012 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
Hi Bob,

At 12:55 AM 3/13/99 -0500, you wrote:
[SNIP]
>the ¡, out of fairness if nothing else. But seriously, "K"
>by itself is not, AFAIK, assigned to *any* unit if measure;
>degrees Kelvin is ¡K, beginning and end of story; if you
>cannot write the ¡ symbol, use the word "degree". Horowitz

Well,Bob,in some of my Physics classes, Kelvins have been considered to be
a unit unto themselves (IOW, it is correct to say 10 Kelvin instead of 10
degrees Kelvin) It seems to me that there isn't real agreement on this
point. It is probably not a really good way to differentiate,but how about
the fact that usually, with resistance, the K is written right next to the
value (i.e. 10K or 10k) and with temperatures, there is usually a space
(i.e. 3 K cosmic background radiation).

>BTW, in preparing this response, I made extensive
>use of my trusty "Rubber Bible" -- the CRC Handbook
>of Chemistry and Physics, 55th edition, which is
>frighteningly dated 1974 (and purchased new by myself,
>I must add). I wish to report that Wagner's statement
>of the rules for SI multiplicative prefixes is exactly
>in agreement with that text, right down to "k" being
>lower case and "M" being upper.

I've got the 1992-93 edition,but it seems to me that most of the material
from it greatly pre-dates 1992 anyway,with the exception of the 1983 (IIRC)
accepted constants. The CRC handbook really comes in handy because I can be
pretty sure that if a prof. says "look it up",its in there! I didn't buy
it,got it as a prize in a Chemistry competition.

{Quote hidden}

| Sean Breheny                  
| Amateur Radio Callsign: KA3YXM
| Electrical Engineering Student  
\--------------=----------------
Save lives, please look at http://www.all.org
Personal page: http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/shb7
KILLspamshb7KILLspamspamcornell.edu ICQ #: 3329174

'Beginners Problem ??'
1999\03\13@032641 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
At 23:12 03/12/99 -0500, Wagner Lipnharski wrote:
>I don't want to be a pest in your life,
...
>you would understand if I correct you in few things,

i had to repeat the above :)

> milli (m) 0.001
> centi (c) 100
> kilo  (k) 1,000

as a matter of fact, centi is 0.01 (not 100) as in cm (centimeter):
100cm=1m, but i'm not sure whether centi is actually part of the SI. "cm"
is probably the only really common use for "c".

> Ohms,      or R  Resistance
> Farads,    or F  Capacitance
> Henris,    or H  Inductance
> Volts,     or V    
> Current,   or I, or Ampere(s)
> Impedance, or Z
> Hertz,     or Hz

here the common abbreviations for the different -- how's that called? here
i am right at the edge of my language skills -- you-know-what-i-mean :) and
their units got mixed up (what exactly i mean will be clearer from the
slightly modified list):

capacitance (C) in Farad (F); common pF, nF, µF (uF), mF
inductance (L) in Henry (H); common µH (uH), mH
voltage (V) in Volt (V), common mV, V, kV
current (I) in Ampre (A); common pA, nA, µA (uA), mA, A
resistance (R) in Ohm (greek Omega; often R, because Omega is rare in fonts
and on keyboards); common mOhm, Ohm, kOhm, MOhm
impedance (Z) in Ohm, too
power (P) in Watt (W); common µW (uW), mW, W, kW, MW, GW, TW
frequency (f) in Hertz (Hz = 1/s); common Hz, kHz, MHz, GHz

here one starts to see the beauty of the SI: =all= units  are
multiplications/divisions of the 7 base units meter [m], second [s],
kilogram [kg], Ampre [A], Kelvin [K], mol (how's that in english?),
candela [cd].

for example (units in brackets):
time (t) is   [s]
length (l) is   [m]
speed (v) is l/t   [m/s]
acceleration (a) is v/t   [m/s^2]
mass (m) is   [kg]
force (F) is m*a   [kg*m/s^2 = N (Newton)]
work (W) is F*l   [kg*m^2/s^2 = Nm (Newton-meter)= J (Joules) = Ws
(Watt-second)]
power (P) is W/t   [kg*m^2/s^3 = Nm/s = W (Watt)]
current (I) is   [A]
voltage (v) is P/I   [kg*m^2/(s^3*A) = V (Volt)]
resistance is v/I   [kg*m^2/(s^3*A^2) = Ohm]
capacitance is I*t/v   [s^4*A^2/(kg*m^2) = As/V = F (Farad)]

... and so on. i think this is pretty nice, especially since you can get to
one unit from different directions (like from mechanical relations and from
electrical relations), and it always works out right -- and with the units
getting "transparent," you see that all of them actually are related. you
would think "how's pounds and gallons related to Ohm?" -- but they actually
are. resistance relates to voltage and current, these relate to power,
which relates to work, which relates to length and force, which relate to
volume (gallons) and mass (pound), respectively. only that gallon and pound
don't give Ohm.

basically this is why i like the SI (also called the "metric system"). (the
only inconsistency is that "kg" as a base unit already has a multiplicator
with it. but one can live with that... :)  


>Meter (m) doesn't make confusion with milli (m) since
>milli alone doesn't exist. It is quantifying some other
>unit, as Volts, grams, even meters (mV, mg, mm).

and to make things clear the upper and lower case =is= significant. not
always, often it is actually redundant if the context is clear, but you
never know... somebody else might think in a different context.

>It is incorrect use the letter "u" for micro, but as
>it doesn't make any confusion with anything else, and
>as the symbol "µ" is not available directly at the
>keyboard, we understand and don't care... grrrr!

i mostly use (windows) "US International" which has a lot of the nifty
characters (including all the portuguese accents and tildes :) and switches
easily back and forth between it and the normal US keyboard (eg. for
programming).

>Degrees use the "¡" symbol, as ¡F or ¡C, to type it
>just press and hold ALT+SHIFT and type 0 1 7 6 at the
>numeric keypad.

if you type it on the numeric keypad, you don't need the shift (only the
alt key) -- at least with num lock on and on my keyboard.

on the US International ¡ is <right-alt><shift>;

>The same for "µ" ALT+SHIFT+0181 (not 181)  => is <right-alt>m
>             "¸" ALT+SHIFT+0189 => is <right-alt>7
>             "¹" ALT+SHIFT+0188 => is <right-alt>6
>             "²" ALT+SHIFT+0190 => is <right-alt>8

but there might be a problem with these characters. they are not standard
(7bit) ascii, so some non-windows recipients may actually see garbage here.
is that a problem or are such characters within the accepted use policy? :)

ge

'[OT] Units [Was: Beginners Problem ??]'
1999\03\13@045759 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
At 00:55 03/13/99 -0500, Bob Drzyzgula wrote:
>In this case, I will disagree. If 10kOhms can't be written
>"10K",

of course it can, and mA can be written Mamps... as long as you stay within
a =small= context, everybody'll understand.

>then certainly 10 degrees Kelvin has no greater right
>to go around naked like that -- at least it needs to have
>the ¡, out of fairness if nothing else. But seriously, "K"
>by itself is not, AFAIK, assigned to *any* unit if measure;
>degrees Kelvin is ¡K, beginning and end of story;

nope. i don't know where the beginning of the story is, and i certainly
don't know where the end will be, but "K" is the unit "Kelvin" for the
absolute temperature in the SI ("Systme Internacional") -- no "¡", no
"degree". Celsius, Fahrenheit and Reaumur use ¡, though.

{Quote hidden}

i still don't understand why you insist in using the upper case "k". it
sounds everything fine, except for the upper case. =my= keyboard, at least,
makes it even more comfortable to write 5k1 than 5K1. and i agree
completely with you that for resistors, capacitors and inductors the form
to write 5k1 or 4u7 is in most cases pretty unambiguous, especially when
used in a schematic. and it's a whole lot safer against misreading than
5.1kOhm -- the dot sometimes gets pretty tiny.

>square centameters, not centasquaremeters.)

right, but it's "centimeters" (also in english, i think, but i'm no native
speaker :)

ge

1999\03\13@075846 by Bob Drzyzgula

flavicon
face
On Sat, Mar 13, 1999 at 01:47:41AM -0800, Gerhard Fiedler wrote:
> At 00:55 03/13/99 -0500, Bob Drzyzgula wrote:
> >In this case, I will disagree. If 10kOhms can't be written
> >"10K",
>
> of course it can, and mA can be written Mamps... as long as you stay within
> a =small= context, everybody'll understand.

I was mostly referring to the ommision of the unit,
rather than the case of the "K", but you are right about
the inconsistancy in my use of case. My only defense is
that I wrote that *way* past my bedtime :-) This
correction, of course, only lessens the risk of confusing
10k as a resistance and 10¡K as a temperature.

{Quote hidden}

Then you know something that I didn't. As my reference
here, I was using the CRC Handbook, which distinctly
and consistantly uses the ¡K in its telling of the SI
standard. The CRC Handbook also points out that, when
speaking of a temperature *interval*, the indication of
Kelvin or Celsius is irrelevent (being different only in
offset) and thus it is considered proper to use only ¡,
"deg" or "degree" in stating an interval when the scale
is clear from context. Thus, from this I concluded that
it is the ¡ that is considered the primary symbol for
temperature, with "F", "K" and "C" being suffix indicators
for scale and offset. I suppose that this could reflect
the age of my copy? Perhaps someone has the source standard
and can clear this up?

Of course, the very same handbook then goes and violates
its own advice in several other sections, using K by itself
for example in the statement of the units in Boltzman's
constant. I take this to mean that the use of the ¡ is
offical and proper, but it is a pain in the behind to
carry around all the time so everyone just winks at each
other and omits it when they can get away with it. But
it also could mean that the CRC's statement of the SI
standard is incorrect.

> >Horowitz
> >and Hill argue vehemently that "10K" is unambiguously
> >10kOhms; the argument for this is that resistance is the only
> >unit so fundamental to the study of electronics that it
> >can be unambiguously stated without the use of the Omega
>
> i still don't understand why you insist in using the upper case "k". it

Because the last thing I was looking at did it that way
and I didn't think sufficiently about it. Looking at several
other references I see now that the lower case is much more
frequently and correctly used; I stand corrected.

> >square centameters, not centasquaremeters.)
>
> right, but it's "centimeters" (also in english, i think, but i'm no native
> speaker :)

Correct, thank you. I never could spell worth a damn. :-)
Of course, it is "centimeters" in "American" but probably
"centimetres" in "English"? :-)

--Bob

--
============================================================
Bob Drzyzgula                             It's not a problem
RemoveMEbobTakeThisOuTspamdrzyzgula.org                until something bad happens
============================================================

'Beginners Problem ??'
1999\03\13@082624 by Bob Drzyzgula

flavicon
face
On Sat, Mar 13, 1999 at 12:24:06AM -0800, Gerhard Fiedler wrote:
> At 23:12 03/12/99 -0500, Wagner Lipnharski wrote:
> >I don't want to be a pest in your life,
> ...
> >you would understand if I correct you in few things,
>
> here the common abbreviations for the different -- how's that called? here
> i am right at the edge of my language skills -- you-know-what-i-mean :) and
> their units got mixed up (what exactly i mean will be clearer from the
> slightly modified list):

Here is some word usage that may help you write what you wanted to say:

Electrical current intensity is one of the basic quantities covered
by International System of Units (SI). The symbol for electrical
current intensity is I. The SI unit for electrical current intensity
is the ampre, which is given the symbol A.

> here one starts to see the beauty of the SI: =all= units  are
> multiplications/divisions of the 7 base units meter [m], second [s],
> kilogram [kg], Ampre [A], Kelvin [K], mol (how's that in english?),
> candela [cd].

In english, "mole" is the name of the basic quantity, while
"mol" is the symbol for the unit.

> ... and so on. i think this is pretty nice

No argument here. Now if I could just remember how many
teaspoons in a tablespoon, and how many tablespoons in
a cup...

> They are not standard
> (7bit) ascii, so some non-windows recipients may actually see garbage here.
> is that a problem or are such characters within the accepted use policy? :)

I had this concern as well. For what it is worth, the
"vim" editor under a stock RedHat Linux system displays
the symbols just fine, as does the "mutt" mail reader.
But I know that there are many editors and browsers
that are not so functional as these.

--Bob

--
============================================================
Bob Drzyzgula                             It's not a problem
spamBeGonebobspamBeGonespamdrzyzgula.org                until something bad happens
============================================================

1999\03\13@093156 by Marc

flavicon
face
> as a matter of fact, centi is 0.01 (not 100) as in cm (centimeter):
> 100cm=1m, but i'm not sure whether centi is actually part of the SI. "cm"
> is probably the only really common use for "c".

"cl" is, too (0.01 liters).

1999\03\13@094616 by Bob Drzyzgula

flavicon
face
On Sat, Mar 13, 1999 at 03:11:52PM +0100, Marc wrote:
> > as a matter of fact, centi is 0.01 (not 100) as in cm (centimeter):
> > 100cm=1m, but i'm not sure whether centi is actually part of the SI. "cm"
> > is probably the only really common use for "c".
>
> "cl" is, too (0.01 liters).

And "cg", centigram, is found on high-precision lab scales.

--Bob

--
============================================================
Bob Drzyzgula                             It's not a problem
TakeThisOuTbobEraseMEspamspam_OUTdrzyzgula.org                until something bad happens
============================================================

1999\03\13@101841 by Nick Taylor

picon face
How many is "one billion"?
Is it 1,000,000 or 1,000,000,000?

- - - Nick - - -

1999\03\13@102638 by ryan pogge

flavicon
face
1,000,000,000  is one billion
1,000,000          is one million



>How many is "one billion"?
>Is it 1,000,000 or 1,000,000,000?
>
> - - - Nick - - -
>

1999\03\13@102850 by Dave VanHorn

flavicon
face
>How many is "one billion"?
>Is it 1,000,000 or 1,000,000,000?
>
> - - - Nick - - -


it's not 1,000,000  but the rest depends on  where you are.

1999\03\13@104751 by Nick Taylor

picon face
I lost count of my zeroes ...
is "one billion" equal to
one thousand millions or
one million millions?

- - - Nick - - -

1999\03\13@105402 by Harold Hallikainen

picon face
One billion is a thousand million in the US and a million million in the
UK.

Harold


On Sat, 13 Mar 1999 07:47:07 -0800 Nick Taylor <RemoveMEntaylorspamTakeThisOuTINAME.COM>
writes:
>I lost count of my zeroes ...
>is "one billion" equal to
>one thousand millions or
>one million millions?
>
>- - - Nick - - -
>

___________________________________________________________________
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Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
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1999\03\13@114926 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
Gerhard Fiedler wrote:
> >Degrees use the "¡" symbol, as ¡F or ¡C, to type it
> >just press and hold ALT+SHIFT and type 0 1 7 6 at the
> >numeric keypad.
>
> if you type it on the numeric keypad, you don't need the shift (only the
> alt key) -- at least with num lock on and on my keyboard.

In pure DOS using any text editor, you don't need to hold down
shift, but in some windows editors, if not at all, it makes
a difference since windows interpret it as ALT+PgDn when
pressing ALT+3 at the numeric keyboard. This is why you need
to select "numeric" state with [shift] or [numeric lock].

> basically this is why i like the SI (also called the "metric
> system")....
Not trying to create any problem here, please, but comparing,
a meter/1000 is just "mm", how in standard form you represent
a inch/10? 3/32 + 3/512 + 3/8192 + 3/65536 + 3/1048576 + ... ?  

est‡ certo Gerhard?
--------------------------------------------------------
Wagner Lipnharski - UST Research Inc. - Orlando, Florida
Forum and microcontroller web site:  http://www.ustr.net
Microcontrollers Survey:  http://www.ustr.net/tellme.htm

1999\03\13@122446 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
Harold Hallikainen wrote:
>
> One billion is a thousand million in the US and a million million in the
> UK.
>
> Harold


So, you mean that all over the world, is this:

(1) Million        10^6
(2) Billion (bi)   10^9
(3) Trillion (tri) 10^12
(4) QuaWhat? Quallion? hehe

and in United Kingdom is:

(1)   Million           10^6
(1.5) Thousand Millions 10^9
(2)   Billion           10^12
(2.5) Thousand Billions 10^15
(3)   Trillion          10^18
and so on?

I need to take care when writing my checks to you guys
in UK... about the billions I mean.

Somebody said that it is easy not to see the dot "."
in the middle of a resistor value, as 4.7k Ohms, instead
the common use of 4k7, probably this is why in portuguese
we use "comma" instead the "dot", for the decimal reference,
as 4,7k Ohms, or 2,5cm. Yes, our thousand separators is
the... "dot".  2.512,25 means two thousand, five hundred...
--------------------------------------------------------
Wagner Lipnharski - UST Research Inc. - Orlando, Florida
Forum and microcontroller web site:  http://www.ustr.net
Microcontrollers Survey:  http://www.ustr.net/tellme.htm

1999\03\13@123522 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
At 12:22 PM 3/13/99 -0500, you wrote:
>the common use of 4k7, probably this is why in portuguese
>we use "comma" instead the "dot", for the decimal reference,
>as 4,7k Ohms, or 2,5cm. Yes, our thousand separators is
>the... "dot".  2.512,25 means two thousand, five hundred...

You probably know this,but that isn't just in Portuguese,but in
Spanish,French,and I think several other European languages.

Sean

|
| Sean Breheny
| Amateur Radio Callsign: KA3YXM
| Electrical Engineering Student
\--------------=----------------
Save lives, please look at http://www.all.org
Personal page: http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/shb7
shb7EraseMEspam.....cornell.edu ICQ #: 3329174

1999\03\13@132821 by rweaver8

flavicon
face
Thank you for your run down on basic electrical terms. I am pretty much
familure with them. Dont think your rundown was wasted though. I did
learn something from it: How to type degrees. I have always wondered how
to do that.
Ralph

'[OT] Units [Was: Beginners Problem ??]'
1999\03\13@135146 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
At 07:57 03/13/99 -0500, Bob Drzyzgula wrote:
>> nope. i don't know where the beginning of the story is, and i certainly
>> don't know where the end will be, but "K" is the unit "Kelvin" for the
>> absolute temperature in the SI ("Systme Internacional") -- no "¡", no
>> "degree". Celsius, Fahrenheit and Reaumur use ¡, though.
>
>Then you know something that I didn't. As my reference
>here, I was using the CRC Handbook, which distinctly
>and consistantly uses the ¡K in its telling of the SI
>standard.

look at http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/units.html where they tell a bit
of the SI story (it's one of the top links of a web search on "units si",
so it's not exactly hard to find anytime you might need it :). your
handbook seems outdated.

the difference is, as i see it, that Kelvin is an absolute unit, and
therefore a "real" physical unit, and has no ¡. whereas the various "human"
temperature scales are just that, and so they get the traditional ¡ in
front of them.

ge

'[OT] Knowledge - It was [Beginners Problem ??]'
1999\03\13@135357 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
Ralph Weaver wrote:
>
> Thank you for your run down on basic electrical terms. I am pretty much
> familure with them. Dont think your rundown was wasted though. I did
> learn something from it: How to type degrees. I have always wondered how
> to do that.
> Ralph

Ralph, we are all beginners, doesn't matter how much a
person knows, he will still in the newbie seat all his life.

An old chinese proverb:
"The one that thinks that knows everything, knows nothing,
and the one that thinks that know nothing, already started
to know something".

A popular:
"The best news can be read from old newspapers and old
magazines at the bathroom".

By the way, what do you read at the bathroom? :)

I extended that idea and some experiences at this webpage:
http://www.ustr.net/newbies1.htm
--------------------------------------------------------
Wagner Lipnharski - UST Research Inc. - Orlando, Florida
Forum and microcontroller web site:  http://www.ustr.net
Microcontrollers Survey:  http://www.ustr.net/tellme.htm

'Beginners Problem ??'
1999\03\13@140222 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
At 12:22 03/13/99 -0500, Wagner Lipnharski wrote:
>So, you mean that all over the world, is this:
>
>(1) Million        10^6
>(2) Billion (bi)   10^9

actually, in germany a "Billion" is 10^12, too, not only in the uk. 10^9
would be a "Milliarde". you better make your clients use plain numbers
(without decimal points/commas and without commas/points to separate the
thousands) for you BIG checks... :)

ge

1999\03\13@140224 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
At 11:48 03/13/99 -0500, Wagner Lipnharski wrote:
>Not trying to create any problem here, please, but comparing,
>a meter/1000 is just "mm", how in standard form you represent
>a inch/10? 3/32 + 3/512 + 3/8192 + 3/65536 + 3/1048576 + ... ?

well, in electronics we got used to call "inch/10" "100mil" :)  =somebody=
on this side of the ocean must have had a need to facilitate calculations
and start counting in decimals rather than in binary fractions...

ge

1999\03\13@140226 by Bertel Schmitt

picon face
Depends on where you are. In Germany (for instance), a billion equals a
million millions, whereas in the USA, it equals a thousand millions. Makes
takeover talks between European and US companies very interesting ....

BS


At 04:47 PM 3/13/99 , Nick wrote:
>I lost count of my zeroes ...
>is "one billion" equal to
>one thousand millions or
>one million millions?

1999\03\13@141047 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
At 08:25 03/13/99 -0500, Bob Drzyzgula wrote:
>Here is some word usage that may help you write what you wanted to say:
>
>Electrical current intensity is one of the basic quantities ...

thanks. "quantity" was the word i couldn't come up with. i'll get better...
patience. :)

ge

'[OT] Units [Was: Beginners Problem ??]'
1999\03\13@143410 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
Gerhard Fiedler wrote:
> look at http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/units.html where they tell a bit
> of the SI story (it's one of the top links of a web search on "units si",
> so it's not exactly hard to find anytime you might need it :). your
> handbook seems outdated.
>
> the difference is, as i see it, that Kelvin is an absolute unit, and
> therefore a "real" physical unit, and has no ¡. whereas the various "human"
> temperature scales are just that, and so they get the traditional ¡ in
> front of them.
>
> ge

so I was right since the beginning. :))

Degree means basically rotation in a scale, and so it was in the old
thermometers, a torsion device based on temperature.  Each one build
its own scale, so entitled it with his name. A whole degree in each
one was meaning different temperatures, based on the way it was
build.  Different from Kelvin that is an absolute physical unit.
I use a thermometer microchip that gives me Volts/Kelvin, easy,
pure, no crazy conversions or factor tables.
Wagner

'Beginners Problem ??'
1999\03\13@144831 by Wagner Lipnharski

picon face
just a silly thing for laughing:

if Volts = Resistance × Current,
what is the voltage in a charged perfect capacitor,
where the resistance between the plates is infinite,
with zero current flowing between them?
... hmmm, how much is Infinite × Zero?

so, the charged electrons matter in this capacitor?

Can we say a capacitor does not hold "Voltage", but
"charged potential capacity to creates current"?


Another:

If Resistance is  Voltage / Current,
a simple wire connected to nothing, flowing zero
Amperes, will has zero volts on its ends. So, what
is its resistance?

Zero / Zero = Zero?  It can be an isolant!!! and
will has a zero resitance in this situation???
--------------------------------------------------------
Wagner Lipnharski

1999\03\13@162133 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
At 14:46 03/13/99 -0500, Wagner Lipnharski wrote:
>just a silly thing for laughing:

maybe, but in case you take it seriously, they do have answers...

>if Volts = Resistance Current,
>what is the voltage in a charged perfect capacitor,
>where the resistance between the plates is infinite,
>with zero current flowing between them?
>... hmmm, how much is Infinite Zero?

1) this formula of course applies only where there is =only= resistance
involved (ie. other contributors like capacity negligible). in an ideal
capacitor, the formula is

v = Q / C

(why would you apply the formula for an ideal =resistor= to an ideal
=capacitor=? don't confuse people here... somebody might take you seriously :)

2) "infinite" is not a number and neither a reality. what you actually do
have is a very high value for the resistance and a very low value for the
current. (how long do =your= capacitors hold a charge? mine discharge in
times a whole lot smaller than "infinity." :)

>so, the charged electrons matter in this capacitor?

of course, that's Q [As], the charge in the cap.

>Can we say a capacitor does not hold "Voltage", but
>"charged potential capacity to creates current"?

that's exactly what "voltage" is, i guess.


>If Resistance is  Voltage / Current,
>a simple wire connected to nothing, flowing zero
>Amperes, will has zero volts on its ends. So, what
>is its resistance?
>
>Zero / Zero = Zero?  It can be an isolant!!! and
>will has a zero resitance in this situation???

as long as there is no voltage and no current, the resistance is not
defined (and neither known). this follows from both the mathematical
approach (division through 0 is not defined) and the physical approach
(resistance =is= defined as the relationship between the voltage and the
current, and without any of them there is no way to determine the resistance).

we often talk about resistance (and other quantities of parts) in a pretty
abstract way, without being aware of it. for example, when you say "this
resistor has 5k1," what you actually mean is "when i send a dc current of 1
mA through this resistor, i can measure a voltage of 5V1 at its terminals."
which doesn't necessarily mean that the equivalent is true for 1fA or 1kA.
in these cases, the resistance of the same part might well be a whole lot
different, because it creates a different voltage than the one derived from
the resistance at 1mA. so the resistance of our "5k1 resistor part" at 0 A
is actually not only not defined but also not known. and in some real cases
this fact that the values are only valid over a certain range may create
problems -- always then when you get out of the linear range of your parts
(eg. over voltage for resistors or high frequencies for caps, to cite two
common cases).

ge

1999\03\13@205128 by rweaver8

flavicon
face
The easy way to remember is a billion is a thousand million.

Ralph

Nick Taylor wrote:
>
> How many is "one billion"?
> Is it 1,000,000 or 1,000,000,000?
>
>  - - - Nick - - -

1999\03\14@071356 by g.daniel.invent.design

flavicon
face
Wagner Lipnharski wrote:
> So, you mean that all over the world, is this:
> (2) Billion  10^9

> and in United Kingdom is:
> (2) Billion  10^12

Not just the U.K. Wagner, somehow the newer Americans lost three zeros
during their settlement of America in their race to become:
               Yankee "Bilionaires"

Regards,
Graham Daniel (N.Z.)

'Was: Beginners Problem ?? now Units'
1999\03\14@150602 by Stuart Meier

flavicon
face
>One billion is a thousand million in the US and a million million in the
>UK.

Unfortunately, there is now no consistent 'oral protocol' for billion in the
UK. Historically, a UK billion was a million million, but the US usage is
now quite common, but not exclusive. So you have to know the
context/background of the author.

Stuart Meier
Wyndham Associates
UK

--

1999\03\14@153929 by Jim Paul

picon face
It was my thought that at least in the US anyway, when you got to 1,000,000,
that meant 1
million( or one thousand thousand).  When you have one thousand thousand
thousand, that is one billion.  Now, note that the root prefix of Million
(Mono), means one or the first order of thousand above thousand, and that
the root prefix of Billion (Bi),  means two, or  the second order of
thousand above a thousand.   Thereafter, it follows that the third order of
a thousand beyond a thousand would be a trillion, or (Tri) etc., etc., etc.
Was anyone else taught this in grade school?

Regards,

Jim
{Original Message removed}

'[OT] Was: Beginners Problem ?? now Units'
1999\03\14@155006 by Sean Breheny

face picon face
At 02:32 PM 3/14/99 -0600, you wrote:
>It was my thought that at least in the US anyway, when you got to 1,000,000,
>that meant 1
>million( or one thousand thousand).  When you have one thousand thousand
>thousand, that is one billion.  Now, note that the root prefix of Million
>(Mono), means one or the first order of thousand above thousand, and that
>the root prefix of Billion (Bi),  means two, or  the second order of
>thousand above a thousand.   Thereafter, it follows that the third order of
>a thousand beyond a thousand would be a trillion, or (Tri) etc., etc., etc.
>Was anyone else taught this in grade school?

Now that I think about it,I recall somewhere seeing that the root for
Million was actually Mille (meaning thousand,from Latin) and that it
refered to a thousand of whatever base unit you are talking about. Your
explanation of how Billion comes from Bis for two makes sense above
that,but I think that the base unit is what is in dispute here,whether it
is 1000 or 1x10^6

>
>Regards,
>
>Jim

Sean


|
| Sean Breheny
| Amateur Radio Callsign: KA3YXM
| Electrical Engineering Student
\--------------=----------------
Save lives, please look at http://www.all.org
Personal page: http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/shb7
EraseMEshb7spamcornell.edu ICQ #: 3329174

1999\03\14@160041 by Gerhard Fiedler

picon face
At 14:32 03/14/99 -0600, Jim Paul wrote:
>It was my thought that at least in the US anyway, when you got to 1,000,000,
>that meant 1
>million( or one thousand thousand).  When you have one thousand thousand
>thousand, that is one billion.  Now, note that the root prefix of Million
>(Mono), means one or the first order of thousand above thousand, and that
>the root prefix of Billion (Bi),  means two, or  the second order of
>thousand above a thousand.   Thereafter, it follows that the third order of
>a thousand beyond a thousand would be a trillion, or (Tri) etc., etc., etc.
>Was anyone else taught this in grade school?

i don't know... seems rather forced "logic" (but a good way to remember it
:). in german language (and AFAIK in uk english, too), it is

 1 million = 10^6; ("mono" = 1)
 1 billion = 10^12 = 1 million * 1 million; ("bi" = 2)
 1 trillion = 10^18 = 1 million * 1 million * 1 million; ("tri" = 3)

which seems a more consistent "logic" to me :)  but luckily most of us
don't have to worry about such amounts and their interpretations on their
checks. we could be in =real= trouble then... :)

ge

'Beginners Problem ??'
1999\03\14@223448 by Biswanath Dutta

flavicon
picon face
Hi Everybody.

Wow ! This is what the list is all about. I am amazed with the time &
effort you obviously very busy people spend in answering to the postings
on the list. Just going through them can be quite enlightening. Thanks
to all. Hope to be able to contribute my wee bit sometime in future.

Wagner --   Not a pest at all. As you rightly said, we are all perpetual
learners and I not any less than anybody else. I find learning very
exciting and that's what makes this ever changing field of electronics &
microcontrollers so interesting. You are most welcome.

Sean --      I added the caps to the IC pins as suggested by you --
didn't help much to improve the situation but I've kept them on any way
since its a good idea.
I am getting convinced that the problem may be due to stray capacitances
and noise pickups -- due to the following reasons--

1) The behaviour has changed somewhat (with or without the above caps) .
Now it locks up less often. Even when it does (happens only during
power-up), external reset gets it working.
2) I've got another beginner's program working, and its working fine --
two 7 seg. LED displays displaying 00 to 99 on command from UP/DN
buttons. No power up problems.

Specially due to point 1 above I shall rewire the circuit and let you
know.

Thanks --  Biswanath

1999\03\14@234122 by AJAY WAZIR

flavicon
picon face
part 0 1513 bytes

-----Original Message-----
From:   Biswanath Dutta [SMTP:RemoveMEsavlinkEraseMEspamEraseMECAL.VSNL.NET.IN]
Sent:   Monday, March 15, 1999 7:37 AM
To:     RemoveMEPICLISTspam_OUTspamKILLspamMITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject:        Re: Beginners Problem ??

Hi Everybody.

Wow ! This is what the list is all about. I am amazed with the time &
effort you obviously very busy people spend in answering to the postings
on the list. Just going through them can be quite enlightening. Thanks
to all. Hope to be able to contribute my wee bit sometime in future.

Wagner --   Not a pest at all. As you rightly said, we are all perpetual
learners and I not any less than anybody else. I find learning very
exciting and that's what makes this ever changing field of electronics &
microcontrollers so interesting. You are most welcome.

Sean --      I added the caps to the IC pins as suggested by you --
didn't help much to improve the situation but I've kept them on any way
since its a good idea.
I am getting convinced that the problem may be due to stray capacitances
and noise pickups -- due to the following reasons--

1) The behaviour has changed somewhat (with or without the above caps) .
Now it locks up less often. Even when it does (happens only during
power-up), external reset gets it working.
2) I've got another beginner's program working, and its working fine --
two 7 seg. LED displays displaying 00 to 99 on command from UP/DN
buttons. No power up problems.

Specially due to point 1 above I shall rewire the circuit and let you
know.

Thanks --  Biswanath

'Was: Beginners Problem ?? now Units'
1999\03\15@022905 by g.daniel.invent.design

flavicon
face
Jim, why be stuck on thousands?

> (Mono), means one or the first order of thousand above thousand, and that
> the root prefix of Billion (Bi),  means two, or  the second order of
> thousand above a thousand.   Thereafter, it follows that the third

you can equally well apply the same logic using millions as your base
unit instead of thousands, your text: "first order of thousand *above*
thousand," sems a little contrived in comparison.
regards,
Graham Daniel.

1999\03\15@071752 by paulb

flavicon
face
Graham Daniel wrote:

> Jim, why be stuck on thousands?

> you can equally well apply the same logic using millions as your base
> unit instead of thousands, your text: "first order of thousand *above*
> thousand," sems a little contrived in comparison.

 Contrived in a way that only a politician or a salesman could, or
would.  And are not both true American artforms?
(Rmemeber: "I never had an improper relationship with Miss Lewinski")

 I have *never* been able to see the "bi" in 10^9 at all!  But then, if
anything, I'm more mathematician than salesman, to my wife's eternal
regret.
--
 Cheers,
       Paul B.

1999\03\15@091634 by jamesp

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Graham,

 Maybe so, but thats just the way I was taught, and I saw no
 reason to change.

                     Regards,

                       Jim




{Quote hidden}

'[OT] Knowledge - It was [Beginners Problem ??]'
1999\03\15@095740 by Lawrence Lile

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-----Original Message-----
From: Wagner Lipnharski <RemoveMEwagnerlTakeThisOuTspamspamEARTHLINK.NET>


>We are all beginners, doesn't matter how much a
>person knows, he will still in the newbie seat all his life.
>
>An old chinese proverb:
>"The one that thinks that knows everything, knows nothing,
>and the one that thinks that know nothing, already started
>to know something".



Wise words, Wagner.  I was just reflecting this morning on how fast I have
to learn stuff.  It is to the point that if I am not learning anything, I'm
bored.

By day I am the guy that knows all about electronics and CAD and computers
in an electronics/CAD/Computer imparied office full of mechanical engineers,
by night I am a clumsy beginning dance student stumbling along among a bunch
of better dancers.  I get to be the ultimate newbie.  I am therefore highly
concerned that new people on the PIClist get a welcoming response, get basic
questions answered well, and don't get the "IDIOT! EVERYONE KNOWS THAT
ALREADY AND WE DISCUSSED IT LAST WEEK TO DEATH!" mantra.  Yes we did discuss
it to death last week, but this week there's a new person that wasn't around
for that discussion.  That new person needs gentle and patient guidance at
their own pace.

'[OT] Was: Beginners Problem ?? now Units'
1999\03\15@115345 by Wagner Lipnharski

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There is a possible explanation:
See, in latin, that gave origen to Italian, French,
Portuguese, Spanish and others, the "thousand" word is
something like "mil", "mile" (not as the american mile,
that also must have something to do with it, but said
as en english m"ee"le).  Now, a way to represent a
superlative (big) meaning to some words, is ending it
with the sound "...on", or "...‹o", then for example
the portuguese word "carro" (car) can be said "carr‹o"
(with the ending "...on" sound) to represent a big
car, so probably the word "million" that in portuguese
written is "milh‹o", means a big "mil" (thousand),
so every 3 zeroes, it turns to be mi-llion, bi, tri,
quatri, and this is directly from latin, right?

I use the international system units, and when it says
that Giga was created to avoid the "billion = thousand
millions" confusion, I would addopt it. So please
next time someone from UK would write a check to me,
use Giga instead Billion, ok? :)
"Two Giga Dollars and no cents".
--------------------------------------------------------
Wagner Lipnharski - UST Research Inc. - Orlando, Florida
Forum and microcontroller web site:  http://www.ustr.net
Microcontrollers Survey:  http://www.ustr.net/tellme.htm

'[OT] Knowledge - It was [Beginners Problem ??]'
1999\03\15@130351 by Wagner Lipnharski

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Lawrence Lile wrote:
{Quote hidden}

Learning is a difficult task, even that ironically rewarded with the
knowledge that as much as you learn, you also increase the frustration
by how little you know and how much exist up front. (ignorance = domain
of a whole small world = happiness) My father (82 yrs old) is happy
because he knows everything that is possible to know, for his
simplicity. I am unhappy, sometimes is difficult to find the right chip
datasheet in the 100 or more technical books I have in the shelves.
Internet shows us how much "collective knowledge" we have available and
the little time to read it all. Remember, learn is a mind shaking
experience, and it is a natural ability of the human mind, even that it
needs exercise, and works differently from one person to another. It is
free, and there is no limit in our mind to store information, again, it
is free and so vast that one person can not be measured by how much he
knows, but mostly by how he uses it.  I know very little about PIC (for
example), my base knowledge is motorola, intel, philips, (and this is
why I am here, to learn about it), but this lack of knowledge does not
make me small or inferior, rather than, the desire to learn makes me big
and important, and everyone must respect it, to also have its own
ignorance respected.

There is a little nice story, reduced here, about a small fish that
jumped out of the aquarium where it was living with other fish, through
the drain into a little pond (retention water, very small lake), he saw
marvelous and got fascinated about how vast it was, how many things to
see and do, remembering about the ignorant friends living in the small
world the fish returned to the aquarium. The fish told the others about
the fantastic outside world in the pond.  An old fish said that the pond
was nothing, he made that journey once, and ended up in an infinite
endless world, a river. All other fish stared at that story. Five inches
from the aquarium, at the wall, there was a poster of sunset over the
ocean.
--------------------------------------------------------
Wagner Lipnharski - UST Research Inc. - Orlando, Florida
Forum and microcontroller web site:  http://www.ustr.net
Microcontrollers Survey:  http://www.ustr.net/tellme.htm

'[OT] Was: Beginners Problem ?? now Units'
1999\03\15@153005 by Gerhard Fiedler

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At 11:50 03/15/99 -0500, Wagner Lipnharski wrote:
>I use the international system units, and when it says
>that Giga was created to avoid the "billion = thousand
>millions" confusion, I would addopt it. So please
>next time someone from UK would write a check to me,
>use Giga instead Billion, ok? :)
>"Two Giga Dollars and no cents".

actually, the uk billion is Tera... the Tera pound sterling to me, please :)

ge

'Beginners Problem ??'
1999\03\16@041855 by Dr. Imre Bartfai

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Hi,

I think the phrase "all over the world" is not precise. For instance, here
in Hungary, a billion is also 10^12. The number 10^9 is called here
"milliard" (I do not know whether this is general). 10^24 is quadrillion,
10^30 is quintillion, etc. In Hungary, in 1946 there was the hugest money
inflation of the world, so there existed such money note as xxx
quadrillion...

Imre


On Sat, 13 Mar 1999, Wagner Lipnharski wrote:

{Quote hidden}

'[OT] Knowledge - It was [Beginners Problem ??]'
1999\03\16@072022 by chris hornby

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{Quote hidden}

The wall usually....

'[OT] Was: Beginners Problem ?? now Units'
1999\03\16@110356 by Wagner Lipnharski

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Dr. Imre Bartfai wrote:
> Hi,
> I think the phrase "all over the world" is not precise. For instance, here
> in Hungary, a billion is also 10^12. The number 10^9 is called here
> "milliard" (I do not know whether this is general). 10^24 is quadrillion,
> 10^30 is quintillion, etc. In Hungary, in 1946 there was the hugest money
> inflation of the world, so there existed such money note as xxx
> quadrillion...
> Imre

Just to try to understand... is there any connection between the use of
Billion = 10^12 and the Imperial or Metric system?  What system is used
in Hungary?

By the way, Brazil also got its high infration rates during several
years,
but they just cut three zeros from the money from time to time, and
print
new currency paper and coins.  I believe it happened at least 6 times,
what means it already lost eighteen zeros,  000,000,000,000,000,000
along the history.  We survived inflation rates of 40% a month. It means
expending the monthly salary payment in the same day it was received,
in food and goods, or the money looses its purchase power in 1% a day.

Wagner

1999\03\16@151025 by Gerhard Fiedler

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At 11:01 03/16/99 -0500, Wagner Lipnharski wrote:
>Just to try to understand... is there any connection between the use of
>Billion = 10^12 and the Imperial or Metric system?

i don't think so, they seem disconnected.

usa: small billion, modified imperial system
brazil: small billion, metric system
uk: big billion, imperial system
germany (and hungary, too, i think): big billion, metric system


>along the history.  We survived inflation rates of 40% a month. It means
>expending the monthly salary payment in the same day it was received,
>in food and goods, or the money looses its purchase power in 1% a day.

unless you're part of the upper 10% and have inflation-protected bank
accounts and investments... :)

ge

'Beginners Problem ??'
1999\03\18@192200 by Sean Breheny

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Hi Biswanath,

I'm very sorry for the long delay. I have been very busy and it is hard to
keep track of all my email...

I don't really know about the power-up timer question,I guess part of the
answer is that the chip is designed to work with voltages which are
somewhat lower than 5V so it can't wait until 5V is reached because the
supply might not be that high. That being said, why they couldn't set it to
some voltage above which the chip is guaranteed to work,I don't know.

A couple more suggestions: Try just tieing MCLR to high and eliminating the
reset circuit.

Also,try feeding the circuit pulses from a known good pulse generator and
temporarily disconnecting it from the mains. I still sorta suspect the
connection to the mains.

Sean


At 07:29 AM 3/13/99 +0530, you wrote:
>Hi Sean,
>
>Thanks once again.
>
>I went back to the dtasheets and saw the PWRT problem mentioned by you.
>BTW, I also have external reset Circuitry connected to MCLR -- 10K to VDD,
10mfd
>to gnd.
>Re: Power-up timer.  Logically, shouldn't the timer start timing after proper
>voltage is reached ? ie. 2 V or more ? Why do they have it this way ? Any
idea ?
>At what voltage does the timer start ?
>Shall try a few changes with the power supply and line input, and get back
to you.
{Quote hidden}

-- so I
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rating.
{Quote hidden}

| Sean Breheny
| Amateur Radio Callsign: KA3YXM
| Electrical Engineering Student
\--------------=----------------
Save lives, please look at http://www.all.org
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